X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: ArdentGuy on November 18, 2006, 05:31:31 AM

Title: X10 modules power consumption [1 of 2]
Post by: ArdentGuy on November 18, 2006, 05:31:31 AM
I filled my home with modules on every lamp, switch, and appliance in order to control everything and anything in the house.  I always realized that X-10 modules consumed a small amount of power but I assumed it was negligible compared to the “safety and convenience” I had gained.

I was wrong.

Over six (6) years, I installed a total 87 X10 modules/switches/controllers.  Hey ... modules were cheap.  But it turns out electricity isn’t.  After all taxes and fees, I pay $0.11/KWH.  I recently measured the power consumption of a dozen modules and switches.  The average power consumption (in the off state) is a meager 3.5 watts.  But the following math has raised the ire of my wife:

87 modules
x 3.5 watts/module
x 24 hrs/day
x 365 days/year
x .001 KW/watt
x $0.11 $/KWH
-------------
$293.42 /year  <==  OUCH!   :o

This is the equivalent of a 300watt load ... the equivalent of  7.3 KWH/day or 219 KWH/month.   I had X10 modules on closet lights that were never sent an “on” code during six years.  (A macro sent an “off” code to all closets every two hours in case anyone ever left a closet light on -- which, as far as we can tell, never happened.)

In short:  I am an X-10 junkie who is now being forced to kick his habit (read: install plain manual $0.38 switches) unless I can find a way to reduce the current being drawn by X-10 products.  So here’s the question (finally):  If I disable the current sensing circuits, can I eliminate the bulk of the quiescent current consumption?  For 85-90% of my X10 applications, I only require X10 automated control.  I visited www.geocities.com/idobartana where I learned to cut the lead of the D10 diode to defeat current sensing.  I tried this on one appliance module.  The current sensing is defeated ... but the module still consumes 3.5 watts of power.  Is there anything else I need to do?

Re: X10 modules power consumption [2 of 2] (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=12513.msg62730#msg62730)


[TTA Edit: Experiment to determine whether or not SPLITTING 'Highly-Viewed' / 'Highly-Replied' but currently INACTIVE threads from LONG, LONG AGO (I'm starting with ~2 years) into parts will allow current ACTIVE threads to appear in the Top 10 Topics (by Replies) section of the Statistics Center (aka More Stats) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?action=stats) Page.

NOTE: I *WILL* address the <BR> problem...]
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: glt on November 18, 2006, 08:39:53 AM
Well, that doesn't sound right, but you know more than me just to be able to make that post....


Ask the same question in comp.home.automation ( a newsgroup - see google/groups) and you should get a worthwhile response.


 :) Fortunately, I have nowhere near that many modules, and the ones I have don't use that much power, and if they did, there is no one but me to complain about them!

GLT

P.S " But the following math has raised the ire of my wife:"

So when did SHE calculate those numbers? And with what did SHE measure the power consumption? And if SHE didn't, exactly how long have you been an HA hobbyist AND married? Not long? See WAF! ;D

(All in fun.)
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: vhoang on November 18, 2006, 02:01:14 PM
You shouldn't have given the yearly figure.   ;)
all 87 modules (that's a whole lot of module) is taking up about 7kwH per day.
That's kinda high.. but still less than a dollar a day for all that automation.

Keeping it in perspective.   
Less than 1 cents a day per module.
A energy efficient refrigerator take up beteen 3-7kwH a day.   
A computer running 24/7 will take up 3-5kwH a day.
My AC peeked at 30kwH per day during summer.
(always someone home this year...)

Would have came out to $400 a month (not a year), if I hadn't
install a 4.5kW solar panel that product 35kwH/day during
summer.  (pricey up front payment / investment)

Even if you are able to reduce the module's consuption by say 20%,
that .20 * 293 / 12 = $5 savings per month.   How many cents
will you save a day?

You have a lot of modules, and yearly figures will seem high sometimes.

Being energy conscious is a great thing, but keep it in perspective
and it won't seem as bad.   

For a about 80 cents a day for the level of automation you
get with 80+ modules, It's not such a bad argument if phrased
correctly.

My X10 automation turns on lights at night when needed and shuts
of lights when no one is there.   It has it's own way of conserving energy.

Consider being able to turn on and off christmas lights and not worry
about forgetting and leaving it on....  Walking into the closet and the
lights turn on.   Etc, etc.   It's the cost of an high tech lifestyle.   

Be careful not to make it seem like a hobby cost.   At 87 modules,
it should start doing convenient stuff for the family that use to be a pain
to deal with without.

I Just make sure the stuff my wife likes work well, and everyone is happy.   
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: JeffVolp on November 19, 2006, 09:33:35 AM
Your consumption numbers for each module are too high.  The capacitive power supply used in most X10 modules cannot deliver that much power.  I did a simulation on the TW523/PSC05 power supply some time ago, and it consumes just over 1 watt.  That has a 2.2uF line capacitor.  Lamp and appliance modules have a .68uf line capacitor, and will only consume about 1/2 watt with the load off.

As a reality check, consider a nightlight with a 4-watt bulb.  Those are normally pretty well ventillated, but can still run hot.  X10 modules are sealed.  Lamp modues (when off) and appliance modules are barely above room temperature.  Transmitters will be warm, but think about how hot it would be with a nightlight bulb sealed inside.  Lamp modules and dimmer switches will heat up when powering a load because the dissipation increases about 1 watt for each amp of power delivered.

Assuming that most of your devices are receivers, your automation power bill is more like $50 per year.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: steven r on November 19, 2006, 10:17:28 AM
I to think the figures are a bit high also. Tell your wife that you figured power use wrong. Quote this topic.

What you need to figure out is the cost of running the lights when they're not needed. i.e. How much is X10 saving by making sure the lights are off. I'd put X10 reliability to turn my lights off way ahead of my remembering to turn them off. Figure the cost of forgetting to turn them off say once a week. (3 or 4 times if your memory is like mine.)

Then go and spend some of that money X10 saved on your wife. I'm betting the WAF will go up.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: HA Dave on November 19, 2006, 11:51:21 AM
Quote from: steven r on November 19, 2006, 10:17:28 AM
What you need to figure out is the cost of running the lights when they're not needed. i.e. How much is X10 saving by making sure the lights are off. .............I'm betting the WAF will go up.

I agree with steven R whole heartedly!

My personal WAF dropped when I put up motion sensor lights around the house. However it was soon evident that the lights rarely activated. When the lights did come on, it was actually very handy. I pointed out, our neighbors that left a single light on outside at night consumed considerably more electricity.

Of course.... wife's are cleaver people. So when asked if I was SURE automation wasn't actually running up the power bill. I suggested she ask her friends how much they spent for electric.

She was pleasantly surprised when she realized, by comparison we used very little power. Being a bit of a watt miser myself, I wasn't.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: KDR on November 19, 2006, 12:14:49 PM
I am lucky in the sense that my wife use to flip on switches, and not knowing that she could also turn them off, left lights on everywhere. Now she doesn't have to turn them on or off. So even if I double the expense listed above I'm still making out. The one problem that I have run into since I live in an older home Is outlets. In the basement where all my gear is stowed I have had to add about 22 outlets in the form of new hardwired or outlet strips. And the number is still growing. Anyone else run into this problem? (Counted 16 wallwart power units so far to date. Includes some computer ones.)
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Brian H on November 19, 2006, 02:43:00 PM
KDR; I am not that crowded yet, but getting there.
I found what is called a socket Liberator that lets you plug wall warts in all the outlets of an outlet  strip; as many block one or more when installed into an outlet strip.
Like a 1' extension cord I now have seen a dual head one.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: KDR on November 19, 2006, 03:25:20 PM
I just got a couple of the outlet strips that TTA posted about awhile back. The outlets are turned which allows you to plug a wart into it without blocking one.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: HA Dave on November 19, 2006, 05:44:01 PM
Quote from: KDR on November 19, 2006, 12:14:49 PM
The one problem that I have run into since I live in an older home Is outlets. In the basement where all my gear is stowed I have had to add about 22 outlets in the form of new hardwired or outlet strips. Anyone else run into this problem? (Counted 16 wallwart power units so far to date. Includes some computer ones.)

I also have an older home and most of my X10 equipment is in the basement. I built my theater down there, and my office is in the basement also.

The basement was finished when I bough the home, and the electric had been upgraded to a 200 AMP service. Still... I have fished a mile of wire. I think me being an old wire twister is part of the problem. Plus the cable TV, Phones, CAT5, speaker wire. Still... power strips rule!
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: KDR on November 19, 2006, 05:55:32 PM
When I purchased the house the house it had a 50 Amp Main. The panel has been updated to 125 amp but the line coming in and the main breakers are still 50 amp service. I will upgrade it next spring when I finally install a new service entrance.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: dave w on November 19, 2006, 06:03:49 PM
Quote from: ArdentGuy on November 18, 2006, 05:31:31 AM
I filled my home with modules on every lamp, switch, and appliance in order to control everything and anything in the house.  I always realized that X-10 modules consumed a small amount of power but I assumed it was negligible compared to the “safety and convenience” I had gained.

I was wrong.

I recently measured the power consumption of a dozen modules and switches.  The average power consumption (in the off state) is a meager 3.5 watts. 

*But the following math has raised the ire of my wife:*

87 modules
x 3.5 watts/module
x 24 hrs/day
x 365 days/year
x .001 KW/watt
x $0.11 $/KWH
-------------
$293.42 /year  <==  OUCH!   :o

In short:  I am an X-10 junkie who is now being forced to kick his habit (read: install plain manual $0.38 switches) unless I can find a way to reduce the current being drawn by X-10 products.  

Is there anything else I need to do?


Yes, (slap) quit whinning and consider if you did not have X10.  ;)

I have over 100 modules, and I contend that 300 bucks a year (if it really is that much) is cheap; considering the energy savings, safety(!!!), and convenience, that  X10 gives us...not to mention security.
  
If you do not think X10 is giving you $300 worth of convenience, safety, security, etc a year, then dump it. OR take out the modules you find you use infrequently and tell your wife to reduce the number of her beauy salon trips per year, so you both give a little.

In 1984 my wife thought X10 was unreliable and a pain to use UNTIL my Enerlogic 1400 controller blew the Dallas clock chip. It took about three weeks to troubleshoot, order parts, and repair the unit. After week one, the same wife who whined about X10,  was now asking every day "when is it going to be fixed". So another option would be to shut the system down for a while and see if wife recalibrates her WAF.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: TakeTheActive on November 19, 2006, 06:47:06 PM
Quote from: KDR on November 19, 2006, 03:25:20 PM

I just got a couple of the outlet strips that TTA posted about awhile back. The outlets are turned which allows you to plug a wart into it without blocking one.

[TTA TIP] 7-Outlet Side-by-Side Power Strips  (Read 1048 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9548.0) [<-- Photo here ;) ]
[/b]

Please add your info to the OP if necessary. [Photo too, if possible. ;) ]

Thanks! :)
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: KDR on November 19, 2006, 07:40:50 PM
Found them at WalMart for about 9 bucks. Don't have a picture of one but when I get a chance I will snap one and post it.

(TTA if you want to move this post around feel free.)
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: TakeTheActive on November 19, 2006, 07:46:05 PM
Quote from: KDR on November 19, 2006, 07:40:50 PM

Found them at WalMart for about 9 bucks. Don't have a picture of one but when I get a chance I will snap one and post it.

Does it look like the one on the right in my photo?

Walmart / New York state?
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: KDR on November 19, 2006, 07:51:40 PM
No...  actualy the strip only has 6 outlets and it is also a surge protector. I just noticed that. That could spell problems for a X10 signal. I will have to give it a try soon since I did get it for the purpose of plugging my camera wall warts into.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: ArdentGuy on November 20, 2006, 12:27:20 AM
I appreciate all the comments, suggestions and discussion.  However my question remains unanswered:


I would be happy as a clam to leave all my X10 modules/switches in place IF I can defeat the current sensing feature.  [This assumes that most of the quiescent load is spent on this function.]  I don't need nor want local control.  I'm more than happy to rely 100% on getting X10 signals through the house.  So without getting into a discussion on "why you need local control", please offer any ideas for defeating local control.

Other than low wattage load, here's a problem that "local control" is causing at Christmas.  My wife put up 650 LED Christmas lights on one of her trees.  The entire load is 42 watts (!).  I am trying to use an X-10 module to control this Christmas tree.  I've tried a lamp module and then I tried an appliance module with the same results.  I can turn the module on and of...however when the module is off, the LEDs have a very faint glow.  The LEDs are pulling 3.5 watts from the module.  If I can defeat the current sensing feature of X10 modules/switches, I can use X10 to control LED Christmas lights as well as the 87 other control points in the house.

Can anyone offer help?  To repeat:  I've already been to http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm (http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm) where I learned to cut the lead of the D10 diode to defeat current sensing.  This modification cuts the control line from the microchip (defeats local control) but does not shut off the 3.5 watts going down to the load (the local control sensing current).  What else do I need to do?

Thank you in advance for your help.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: steven r on November 20, 2006, 12:36:44 AM
Quote from: ArdentGuy on November 20, 2006, 12:27:20 AM
...I can turn the module on and of...however when the module is off, the LEDs have a very faint glow....
As mentioned several other places but easier to retype than link, try plugging in a small night with the LEDs. That should be enough to solve the problem.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: steven r on November 20, 2006, 12:44:10 AM
Quote from: TakeTheActive on November 19, 2006, 06:47:06 PM
Quote from: KDR on November 19, 2006, 03:25:20 PM

I just got a couple of the outlet strips that TTA posted about awhile back. The outlets are turned which allows you to plug a wart into it without blocking one.

[TTA TIP] 7-Outlet Side-by-Side Power Strips  (Read 1048 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9548.0) [<-- Photo here ;) ]
  • What STORE?
  • What STATE?
  • What PRICE?
[/b]

Please add your info to the OP if necessary. [Photo too, if possible. ;) ]

Thanks! :)

Here's a useful type. (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Power-Sentry-5-Outlet-Power-Multiplier-PWS100596/sem/rpsm/oid/155754/catOid/-12885/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: ArdentGuy on November 20, 2006, 02:44:35 AM
Quote from: steven r on November 20, 2006, 12:36:44 AM
Quote from: ArdentGuy on November 20, 2006, 12:27:20 AM
...I can turn the module on and of...however when the module is off, the LEDs have a very faint glow....
As mentioned several other places but easier to retype than link, try plugging in a small night with the LEDs. That should be enough to solve the problem.

Yes...yes...I've read THAT work-around in several places.  But rather than add a 4 to 7 watt load to the low LED load, it would be more elegant to simply eliminate the "local control sensing current".  I'm not trying to control only one LED tree -- there are three (3) LED strings on the back deck, two doorways lined with LEDs, LEDs on the front rail, and soon to be LED lights on all the gutters.  There are going to be over a dozen LED Christmas lights control points.  To add a 4 to 7 watt night light at all locations to provide a drain path for the "local control sensing current" that is unwanted and not needed is not a viable solution.  Plus it doesn't solve the 3.5 watt power drain on the other 87 modules.

Thanks for your comment...but my question is how to eliminate the "local control sensing current"...not how to work around it.

Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: vhoang on November 20, 2006, 08:42:47 AM
Removing Local Control: 

http://www.x10community.com/marko/am486_s.gif
http://x10ideas.com/articles/displayx10article.asp?articleid=26
http://www.x10community.com/marko/2006/06/disabling_the_local_control_fe.html
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: JeffVolp on November 20, 2006, 11:28:31 AM
Quote
[li]If I disable the current sensing circuits, can I eliminate the bulk of the quiescent current consumption?[/li]

No, that is just a small fraction of the current drain.

The modules also do not consume as much power as you say.  Much of the power is imaginary, and is only accurately measured with a "true RMS" type of meter.

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: TakeTheActive on November 20, 2006, 11:30:17 AM
Quote from: KDR on November 19, 2006, 07:51:40 PM

No...  actualy the strip only has 6 outlets and it is also a surge protector...

Oops! :o

The 7-outlet strips from Target/Walmart allow for 4 X10 non-transceiver (antenna won't fit)  modules - if needed, 1 transceiver can go at the end. ;)

If I didn't already have so many "spare" lamp modules (which came with package deals), I'd use Socket Rockets for my indicator lights. But, even then, 25 watt and higher bulbs are big enough that they're getting "close" together (the old 7 watt standard base red is getting harder to find and *EXPENSIVE* >:( ).

I might have to search for some of those C-7 to standard base adapters that you used to see around and start using all the old Noma Christmas Lights (anyone remember that name?)
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: TakeTheActive on November 20, 2006, 11:39:34 AM
Quote from: steven r on November 20, 2006, 12:44:10 AM

Here's a useful type: Circuit City: Power Sentry 5-Outlet Power Multiplier PWS100596 @ $14.95 (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Power-Sentry-5-Outlet-Power-Multiplier-PWS100596/sem/rpsm/oid/155754/catOid/-12885/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)_ _(http://www.circuitcity.com/IMAGE/product/detail/pws/EC.PWS.100596.JPG)

Ouch! :o I can get close to 3 Target/Walmart 7-outlet strips (12 X10 module available outlets) for that amount of cash!! ;D

(http://www.geocities.com/taketheactive/Images/7_OUTLETS_SIDE_BY_SIDE_V.JPG)
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: dave w on November 20, 2006, 11:59:52 AM
Quote from: ArdentGuy on November 18, 2006, 05:31:31 AM
I recently measured the power consumption of a dozen modules and switches.  The average power consumption (in the off state) is a meager 3.5 watts. 

ArdentGuy
Jeff is right, the amount of current consumed by the local sense circuit is a small portion of the modules total standby power consumption. To verify, remeasure your modules with and with-out the load plugged in. The current measured with-out a load will be very close to the current with the local sense current eliminated. My bet is: it will barely move the needle.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: steven r on November 20, 2006, 12:25:56 PM
Quote from: TakeTheActive on November 20, 2006, 11:39:34 AM
Quote from: steven r on November 20, 2006, 12:44:10 AM

Here's a useful type: Circuit City: Power Sentry 5-Outlet Power Multiplier PWS100596 @ $14.95 (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Power-Sentry-5-Outlet-Power-Multiplier-PWS100596/sem/rpsm/oid/155754/catOid/-12885/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)_ _(http://www.circuitcity.com/IMAGE/product/detail/pws/EC.PWS.100596.JPG)

What I liked about the one I posted was that each plug would accept an oversized plug. Also if any of the large wall warts were heat sensitive they were away from each other. I posted it as an example. I've seen less expensive ones of the same type also. Some with surge protection and some without.