X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: brunetmj on November 30, 2006, 12:13:58 PM
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I tired to search for this but did not see any appropriate threads..
I am new to X10 so forgive this question. My current understanding of X10 leads me to believe that the transceiver
translates X10 signals from a controller and then sends them into the household wiring. I interrupt this to mean the wiring "system"
since it must also travel through the bus bars on the electrical circuit in order to make it's way to the module.
So a simple question. Does placing a transceiver in the same circuit as the module increase response time of the module?
Or is the signal bouncing around the wires and bus metal so fast the difference doesn’t matter?
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Does placing a transceiver in the same circuit as the module increase response time of the module?
NO.... electrical signals travel at the speed of light. ;)
But placement will definitely have an affect on reliability.
Follow TTA's advise and MAP / MEASURE / CORRECT (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg62635#msg62635) if you are having problems.
P.S. Do the MAP part even if things work. ;)
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Place the transciever as high in the house as you can!
It realy does make a difference !
For RF range at least! ;) :D ;D
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Thanks everyone.. a bit confused about the height comment. Did you mean place the transceiver in an electrical receptacle that is more centrally located for the controllers and higher that then rest if possible? Or did you mean place the transceiver on the 2nd floor of my house ?
As long as the transceiver does not have to be on the same circuit I plan to place it on a receptacle that is located a short distance from the controller and at the top of a wall (I have a older house with some strange receptacle locations). Initially I will only be using three X10 devices, motion sensor floodlights-front and back and a door chime.
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What Tuicemen was referring to is the physical location of the Transceiver within your house.
To get the best RF range (e.g. for motion sensors placed all around your house), the highest most central location generally works best.
But everyone's house & X10 set-up is different, so it takes some moving around and experimenting to find the best location for the best reliability.
P.S.
I am new to X10
Welcome to the world of X10.
Initially I will only be using three X10 devices...
Keep us posted when you expand.... because you WILL :D
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Hooked everything up and it works great ! Now I am excited about expanding..thanks everyone.
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Thanks Puck for clarifying!
Many newbies complain about poor RF range with their setups.
Placing the transceiver in a central location but also as high as possible(even in the Attic) helps greatly! ;) :D ;D
Note: Sometimes the highest point isn't the best if there is a lot of metal there or other things that could cause interference ::) :(
But as Puck stated "you will add more devices"
So its best to find the most central highest point that works for your setup now then there is a greater chance things will work when you do add! ;) :D ;D
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[b]Placing the transceiver in a central location but also as high as possible(even in the Attic) helps greatly![/b]
I've got a metal roof? Or I guess I could just try it and see if it's better!
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I've got a metal roof? Or I guess I could just try it and see if it's better!
If the roof is grounded (which it most likely is) higher may not necessarily be better in that case.
If you move it around, please post what results you see, and where you find that you get the best range.
(Also what Transceiver you are using. ;) )
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It's not grounded w/ a ground wire, but gutters ect may have it grounded !
TM751
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Inexperienced X10'er here - my attic gets up to about 120 degrees in the summer. That kind of heat is not bad for the transceiver?
Michelle
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Most electronics are rated to operate within specifications up to +70C (+158F).
However, continued operation at an elevated temperature (greater than +25C / +77F) will decrease the life expectancy of the transceiver.
So at +120F (+49C), the electronics will work... not sure about the plastic case though. :D
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I have to throw this out there. I must have a strange case in my house, but I get the best RF results with the transceiver in my basement. This never made sense to me, but has been proven by trying many different placements. (I also notice that the center isn't the best in my case but I attribute that to a specific set of heater ducts (Metal, of course) that run through the floor.
Has anyone else run into this situation? The higher I put the RF unit, the better it works from outside, but the less reliable it is from inside. With it in the Attic (Call this 3rd floor...) I have to play with pointing the Palmpad to get a signal through. On the second floor it works 50% of the time, first try. Strangely, in the same room there seem to be spots that are good and others that are terrible. With the unit in the basement (Actually, in a plug on a basement "ceiling" bean, which would be 6 inches below the floor.) I have no dead spots anywhere in the house (I even tried the Palmpad while in the attic for a test.) and it usually works 100% of the time.
From outside, however, it seems to follow what I consider normal. The higher, the better. In the attic, I can get 75% or so from inside my garage, which is detached and about 60 feet away. With the RF in basement, forget most of outside.
I'm thinking of trying a "Smart" repeater in the attic to get the best of both worlds, but I dislike doing things that make no logical sense to me, which this doesn't. I've honestly been reading many posts just to see if anyone had the same crazy results, and have never heard (read?) of anyone saying this. Seeing as this was a transmitter placement thread, sounded like a good place to try.
(Note: I have done a basic "Mapping" of all metal, wire, coax, cat5, etc. and don't think that's what is causing this upside down result, but I think these items do cause some of the "Dead spots" with certain placements. Just FYI.)
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I got this input last month when I was getting started:
My home was built in 1943! The wiring has been semi-updated, so I have a mix of grounded (3 prong) and older (2 prong) outlets. I haven't had any special problems do to wiring.
However (big red letters for TTA) the walls have caused a small work-around. The walls are not "dry-walled" like newer homes. They are constructed of "blue board" with a plaster top coat. That makes them about an inch thick and like concrete. In the garage... the builder used blue board and metal lath to support the plaster.
The construction seems to limit RF transmission. So I try to locate things like the transceiver, video sender and (camera) receiver, in the basement. The floors (and windows) seem much easier to transmitt through, as compared to the walls.
I haven't had any RF issues to date but my house is not a McMansion either. However I do have metal lath/plaster all through the house.
Billaban
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ArtClark :When you tested the CM15A in different locations:
Did you also move the antenna to different angles?
Did you try plugging it in upside down as well?
If you left the antenna in its home position in each location but the CM15A was at different angles (horizontal verses vertical) that could be why you got confusing results!
If you ever played with amateur radios you'll know: antennas in a vertical postion works differently than in a horizontal one!
I don't mean to knock your tests as other things can also deflect or attract signals making them more directional! Causing dead spots or more range in one direction than the other! ;) :D ;D
Many have found antenna angle is key to getting the best results!
They found placing the antenna at 90 degrees from the CM15A worked best but I don't remember if that was vertical or horizontal! ::)
On my original CM15A I could turn my antenna straight down(6:00) which worked best. On my new one the antenna will only turn to 5:00 but for best results with it the antenna needs to be at 1:00 ::) if mounted with USB connection at the bottom! ::) ;) :D ;D
I never tried moving to other locations as I get over 75 feet with this one where it is on the second floor! ;) :D ;D
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I'm thinking of trying a "Smart" repeater in the attic to get the best of both worlds
Have one and it didn't work too well. I ended up just doing the external antenna mod and I have great results. If you are having RF problems it seems the best way to go.
Steve
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Ditto on the repeater - seems to foul things up more than it helps.
Might be useful if you have a motion dectector REALLY far from your house. Even more useful if you could select it to only work on selected house codes (like the one for that motion detector.)
I never heard of the repeater until the CM 15a - wonder why?
Choices:
A. Live w/ the CM15a
B. Mod the CM15a's antenna.
C. Get a WGL 572 ( http://www.wgldesigns.com/ )
D. Get a REAL program ( for lots of bucks) and use the WGL 800.
E. Listen to your wife and spend the money on a new couch. How hard is it to flip a switch? Yeah! Fun!
F. Go w/ SH's insteon and replace your switches monthly.
G. Go w/ UPB powerline protocal (read rich).
H. Buy a "smart" repeater.
GLT
For me it's inexpensive X10 untill somebody PROVES they are better and/or one of the members here shares their lottery winings with us.
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I think I got a bad massage across, somehow. In no way am I complaining about range or X-10. With the RF in the basement I get very good results throughout the house. (Little note: Pulled unused repeater out of box, stuck in attic, tried out in garage and it does bring the garage signals into the house and CM15A quite nicely.) My confusion was really why the in-house items seem (DO!) to work better the lower they are. I have tried many antenna placements, all the way to the point of re-orienting the plug that the CM15A is located in. This was simple in attic and basement cause the box was external so I could remove from wall joist and mount how I wanted. The antenna position makes a difference, but not as great a difference as the height of the unit.
Strangely, I seen to get the best receive distance with the antenna vertical, but when using the transmit (Which is rare, I'll admit) the best range seems to be horizontal. Actually a little off horizontal.... Seeing that most of what I want the CM15 to do is receive, I leave the antenna almost vertical.
The "Smart" repeater is great for Normal signals, but seems to ignore security signals. The keyfobs, sensors and security motion sensors seem to be ignored by it. (Has the "receive" LED and "Transmit" LED). So now I can use a palmpad in the garage, which I'll probably never do, other than for testing, and the alarm keyfobs won't work outside because the repeater doesn't act on them......
Sooner or later, I'll find a method of getting both to work from outside and inside without interference. For Now, This is fine.
Thanks for suggestions and info. Gotta go to work, so further checks and tests get put on back burner for day or so.
Little Note to Billaban: The quote you mentioned, I had read it before, but now I remember..... The new siding on the house was leveled do the misc. methods used to construct the house. The leveling was done with that styrofoam with "FOIL" on both sides. (I really missed that one till just now). Sometimes it takes a lot of pounding to get ideas into my head. I'll check to see if the house or siding is slighttly conductive. This would RF seal the sides of the house, leaving the attic free to radiate outward through the roof.
I should have thought of this sooner. Thanks again.....
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ArtClark: I certainly didn't take your post as a rant about poor RF !
Your results were curious to me and proof that house construction can make a big difference in the way RF signals are received ;) :D ;D
I look forward to reading any more tests and results you have concerning your RF signals they may help others to pin point a problem source in their setup!
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Uh-Oh....
As other people mentioned, the repeater can cause trouble. If I transmit RF out of the CM15 or Palmpad to trigger a device via a separate receiver (I Forget the number right now....), it seems that the "Smart" repeater will re-transmit this signal. This produces two of every command sent this way. (Delayed a little.... Repeater delays a sec.) It doesn't happen every time, and it isn't much of a problem, except with dim / brighten. If you can imagine, Push dim, it dims a step, then dims again. If I dim more than a minimum amount (I.E. push dim for more than a sec. on a palmpad with the pad in the same location as the CM15) then the dim not only works fine, but the repeater doesn't seem to repeat this????
I will (in a day or so.) go through my full test method to verify this repeater thing and post any results that are useful. Right now, there are too many variables for me to really ascertain where and why everything is happening. I think the hardest part of testing is trying to push the palmpad buttons in the basement while watching the LEDs on the repeater in the attic..... I hate to ask for assistance because of the complications that can cause. (Using macros to remote send from CM15 via RF using PLC to trigger the macro is the only one person method I can think of.) As I typed, I'll post any USEFUL results I can get....
Thanks again, this is the type of setup fun I really enjoy. (Even more fun than general X-10 Use....)