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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: michrech on February 11, 2007, 08:20:20 PM

Title: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: michrech on February 11, 2007, 08:20:20 PM
I have a lamp that is plugged into a UPS that I would like to control with something that looks as close to a normal light switch as possible.  I tried using the "online chat with a sales person", but didn't get very far.  Everything he showed me sent the signal through the AC line which, if I'm not mistaken, would get filtered out by the UPS.

So, here I am, turning to those with FAR more experience than I.

I know I need a controller of some sort, a switch of some sort, and the plug for the lamp.  What I need to know is if there is an adapter for the lamp that receives it's signal via RF instead of over the AC line.  I've looked through the site and, when I could get all the pop-up's closed, couldn't find anything that seemed to fit.

If x10 doesn't have anything that will do what I need, is there something compatible from another company?

Thanks for your help in advance!
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Puck on February 11, 2007, 09:55:58 PM
michrech, you could use a TM751 Transceiver. It has a built in appliance module that is controlled via RF from a remote.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: HA Dave on February 11, 2007, 10:03:12 PM
Puck is right. And to turn it on and off you can use the slimline switch (SS13a, SS15a) that looks very much like a regular switch. There are also other remotes to chose from.

You will need to plug the TM751 Transceiver directly into the UPS and the lamp into the Transceiver. The Transceiver will turn the lamp on at unit code 1 of whichever house code you use.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: michrech on February 11, 2007, 10:44:54 PM
What is the difference between the SS13a and the SS15a?  After having looked them up, they *appear* to be exactly the same.

Have the TM751 in my cart.  Just need to see what the difference is between the other to so I can add one to the cart and check out. :)
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: jkarney on February 12, 2007, 12:42:59 AM
Quote
What is the difference between the SS13a and the SS15a?

The difference is in the switch color options. SS13a is white in color. The SS15a has a gold color inset.

 :)
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on February 12, 2007, 12:44:17 AM
Puck is right. And to turn it on and off you can use the slimline switch (SS13a, SS15a) that looks very much like a regular switch. There are also other remotes to chose from.

You will need to plug the TM751 Transceiver directly into the UPS and the lamp into the Transceiver. The Transceiver will turn the lamp on at unit code 1 of whichever house code you use.

Uh, oh... Maybe not a good idea.  There have been several reports of a TM751 being smoked by the not-quite-sinusoidal waveform in a UPS.

Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Puck on February 12, 2007, 09:19:39 AM
Uh, oh... Maybe not a good idea.  There have been several reports of a TM751 being smoked by the not-quite-sinusoidal waveform in a UPS.

Charles: Thanks for pointing that out. I did a search and found a couple posts where this was mentioned. It appears this method of jumping a UPS depends on the quality of the UPS itself... I.E. True Sinewave vs Modified Sinewave.

Signal bypassing a UPS (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=4606.0)

UPS-Unswitched power supply and X10? (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=8610.0)
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: michrech on February 12, 2007, 09:48:04 AM
Too late now.  :D  Already ordered. 

I have several UPS's I can use for this.  One of the threads that were posted said that the SmartUPS line from APC shoudl produce the right type of wave for the power supply in the TM751.  These aren't expensive (to me, anyway), so if I kill one, well, I guess I'll have'ta figure something else out. :) 

I guess I could always take the power coming directly from the UPS and use it for the line voltage instead of having a line from a breaker (if that makes any sense), however, I wanted to avoid doing all sorts of wiring if I could help it.  :)

If anyone else has ideas, feel free to add!  :)
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on February 12, 2007, 11:17:38 AM
Uh, oh... Maybe not a good idea.  There have been several reports of a TM751 being smoked by the not-quite-sinusoidal waveform in a UPS.

[Charles: Thanks for pointing that out. I did a search and found a couple posts where this was mentioned. It appears this method of jumping a UPS depends on the quality of the UPS itself... I.E. True Sinewave vs Modified Sinewave.

Signal bypassing a UPS (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=4606.0)

UPS-Unswitched power supply and X10? (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=8610.0)


It may also depend on whether the UPS is operating with normal AC power or off the battery pack.  One I have is supposed to draw directly from the AC line until a power outage, when it then quickly switches over to the simulated AC.  So for one like this, the TM751 might appear to be working fine, but then burn out when the AC power fails.



Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Brian H on February 12, 2007, 02:15:38 PM
I smoked a TM751 with a APC BX1000. When on battery and the X10 signals will not pass back through the UPS AC Input Filters in Line Operation.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Tuicemen on February 12, 2007, 02:50:58 PM
I have burnt up a TM751 as well using a modified sine wave inverter! ::) ???
How ever I do Have a lamp pluged into my APC UPS with a Socket Rocket (LM15A) screwed into the lamp and It works fine, and has for a number of years! ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Brian H on February 12, 2007, 04:18:14 PM
Thanks for the added data. I have three APC UPS units. Only the newest BX1000 fried the TM751. The others just worked poorly.
Than again. I may have messed up as I may have left the X10 Filter on the UPS AC Input. ??? :P
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: michrech on February 12, 2007, 11:46:52 PM
The UPS I'll be testing is an APC SmartUPS 620.  Whenever the package gets here (I chose the cheap shipping), I'll let you guys know the results.

As for the LM15A.  How does that fit in?  Do I keep the switch and TM751 I've ordered, then put the LM15a in the lamp socket, but plug the TM751 into the wall instead of the UPS?

Many thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: HA Dave on February 13, 2007, 08:29:08 AM
As for the LM15A.  How does that fit in?  Do I keep the switch and TM751 I've ordered, then put the LM15a in the lamp socket, but plug the TM751 into the wall instead of the UPS?

That would be correct michrech.


Sorry if I stuck my foot in my....keyboard... about plugging the TM751 into the UPS. Do let us know how that works out.

And Thank-You to all the COs that jumped in with valuable and helpful information!
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: michrech on February 13, 2007, 10:56:06 AM
Thanks, everyone, for the help/comments.  As soon as the parts arrive, I'll test the TM751 on my UPS and see if I blow it up or if it works. :)  Maybe we can get some sort of grid/database together to show which UPS's these units work properly on? :)  I have a variety of APC UPS's in my house as it is.  Heh

Looks like I'll very possibly be needing to order an LM15A.  At least I have $1.60 (or something similar) in X10 bonus bucks to do so with..  Hehe

Thanks again!

As for the LM15A.  How does that fit in?  Do I keep the switch and TM751 I've ordered, then put the LM15a in the lamp socket, but plug the TM751 into the wall instead of the UPS?

That would be correct michrech.


Sorry if I stuck my foot in my....keyboard... about plugging the TM751 into the UPS. Do let us know how that works out.

And Thank-You to all the COs that jumped in with valuable and helpful information!
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: michrech on February 15, 2007, 07:57:02 PM
Got some news. 

Received the hardware today.  For the first minute that I had the TM751 plugged into the UPS, it took longer and longer to turn the lamp on and off.  Then, it stopped working altogether.  It works fine when plugged into the wall.

I'll go ahead and try the "SocketRocket" and see what it does.  :)

Looks like it's time to hit the checkout!  :)

Thanks again, everyone!
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on February 15, 2007, 08:26:15 PM
Got some news. 

Received the hardware today.  For the first minute that I had the TM751 plugged into the UPS, it took longer and longer to turn the lamp on and off.  Then, it stopped working altogether.  It works fine when plugged into the wall.

I'll go ahead and try the "SocketRocket" and see what it does.  :)

Looks like it's time to hit the checkout!  :)

Thanks again, everyone!


The TM751 was probably starting to heat up, but you caught it in time before it smoked.

It's not clear to me how the SocketRocket will solve your problem.  It's actuated by powerline signals, not RF like the TM751.

Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: michrech on February 15, 2007, 11:59:27 PM
It never got hot that I could tell.  It just stopped responding.  :)

If I read things correctly, Dave_x10_L said it should work. 

This is turning out more difficult than I thought.  :)

Are there any modules that could have a lamp plugged into them that would receive their signal via RF?

Got some news. 

Received the hardware today.  For the first minute that I had the TM751 plugged into the UPS, it took longer and longer to turn the lamp on and off.  Then, it stopped working altogether.  It works fine when plugged into the wall.

I'll go ahead and try the "SocketRocket" and see what it does.  :)

Looks like it's time to hit the checkout!  :)

Thanks again, everyone!


The TM751 was probably starting to heat up, but you caught it in time before it smoked.

It's not clear to me how the SocketRocket will solve your problem.  It's actuated by powerline signals, not RF like the TM751.


Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on February 16, 2007, 01:33:24 AM
It never got hot that I could tell.  It just stopped responding.  :)

If you plug it into the UPS again, does it immediately fail to respond or does it repeat the gradual process you observed the first time?

Quote

If I read things correctly, Dave_x10_L said it should work. 

I think that might have been just a question of what would survive if plugged into the UPS - not what would meet your requirements.

Quote
This is turning out more difficult than I thought.  :)

Are there any modules that could have a lamp plugged into them that would receive their signal via RF?


There are non-X10 RF-actuated lamp modules, but there's no guarantee they'll survive your UPS environment any better than the TM751.  I think it was at Lowe's where  I saw the GE remote modules and controllers.  They use a different RF technology than X10 but the internal power supply could well be similar to a TM751.

You've stated that you want to control a lamp plugged into the UPS with something that looks like a light switch.  Perhaps if you describe the reason for wanting to have this arrangement, some alternatives could come to mind.

Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Brian H on February 16, 2007, 06:53:45 AM
It was most likely starting to overheat. Mine was marginal also for maybe a minute; then degraded and I could smell the resistor and coil in the power supply as the heat shrink tubing got hot.
After cooling in a normal outlet. It still works.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: michrech on February 16, 2007, 11:40:36 PM
The reason I wish to control a lamp that is plugged into a UPS is because, especially in icy winters, or in the hottest periods of summer, the town in which I live can lose power quite frequently; most of the time at night.  For this reason, I wish to keep the floor lamp (which uses a 24w CF bulb) hooked up to a UPS so I'm not suddenly plunged into the dark.

I've gotten over wishing to have something as close to a light switch as possible.  I'm fine with something that looks like the SS13A...  I just want to be able to control the lamp.. eheheh

As it stands, so long as the UPS is not running on battery, the TM751 is fine -- works perfectly.  It's only when it's on battery that it doesn't respond to commands.  It stays in whatever state it was when the UPS switched to battery.

It never got hot that I could tell.  It just stopped responding.  :)

If you plug it into the UPS again, does it immediately fail to respond or does it repeat the gradual process you observed the first time?

Quote

If I read things correctly, Dave_x10_L said it should work. 

I think that might have been just a question of what would survive if plugged into the UPS - not what would meet your requirements.

Quote
This is turning out more difficult than I thought.  :)

Are there any modules that could have a lamp plugged into them that would receive their signal via RF?


There are non-X10 RF-actuated lamp modules, but there's no guarantee they'll survive your UPS environment any better than the TM751.  I think it was at Lowe's where  I saw the GE remote modules and controllers.  They use a different RF technology than X10 but the internal power supply could well be similar to a TM751.

You've stated that you want to control a lamp plugged into the UPS with something that looks like a light switch.  Perhaps if you describe the reason for wanting to have this arrangement, some alternatives could come to mind.


Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on February 17, 2007, 03:24:20 AM
The reason I wish to control a lamp that is plugged into a UPS is because, especially in icy winters, or in the hottest periods of summer, the town in which I live can lose power quite frequently; most of the time at night.  For this reason, I wish to keep the floor lamp (which uses a 24w CF bulb) hooked up to a UPS so I'm not suddenly plunged into the dark.

I've gotten over wishing to have something as close to a light switch as possible.  I'm fine with something that looks like the SS13A...  I just want to be able to control the lamp.. eheheh

Presuming you don't find a transceiver that will survive the UPS environment, here's an alternative idea:
Get a relay with DPDT contacts and a 120V coil, plus two cheap extension cords.
Cut the plug with some length of wire attached from one of the extension cords and connect it to the coil of the relay.  Call this "plug A". 

Cut the plug and socket from the other extension cord, each with some length of wire attached.  Connect this plug and socket to the contacts of the relay, such that there's a current path from plug to socket when the contacts are in the _normally closed_ position. Call this "plug B" and "socket B".

Insert "plug A" into any electrical outlet other than the controlled outlet of the UPS.
Insert "plug "B" into the controlled outlet of the UPS.
Plug your floor lamp into "socket B".

Now under normal power conditions the relay coil will be energized and the electrical path to the lamp will be broken.  When there's a power failure, the coil will be de-energized, the contacts will go back to their normally closed position and the lamp will come on.

Knowing now how the wires are to be connected, you can determine the actual lengths of wire referred to above as "some length of wire".  If your UPS is anything like mine, you have both controlled and non-controlled outlets on it, so the wires left connected to "plug A" and "plug B" can be relatively short and about the same length.

Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: HA Dave on February 17, 2007, 10:07:38 AM
Or maybe just an oldfashion emergency light (http://www.bulbs.com/eSpec.aspx?ID=9799&Ref=Emergency&Ref2=Emergency+%26+Exit+Lighting) and a flashlight in your desk drawer.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: michrech on February 17, 2007, 05:41:37 PM
Would you put one of those ugly things in your livingroom/kitchen/bedroom/etc?  :)

I have flashlights.  I just seem to never be able to find them when the power goes out.. eheheheh

Or maybe just an oldfashion emergency light (http://www.bulbs.com/eSpec.aspx?ID=9799&Ref=Emergency&Ref2=Emergency+%26+Exit+Lighting) and a flashlight in your desk drawer.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: HA Dave on February 17, 2007, 06:00:27 PM
Would you put one of those ugly things in your livingroom/kitchen/bedroom/etc?  :)


Sure. In my living room I would mount (hide) it behind the TV to light up (reflect off of) the wall when power fails. In the kitchen, I would mount it under a cabinet (near the stove). And in the bedroom I would likely just use the flashlight under the head of my bed.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: michrech on February 19, 2007, 02:05:56 PM
Bah..  :)

I think I'll just stick to purchasing a lamp module and take it to the local "electronics repair guy" and see if he can modify it to work properly on a UPS. :)

Besides..  How are you going to mount one of those things behind your TV if your TV is mounted to a wall (or worse, installed into a "builtin")?  :)

Would you put one of those ugly things in your livingroom/kitchen/bedroom/etc?  :)


Sure. In my living room I would mount (hide) it behind the TV to light up (reflect off of) the wall when power fails. In the kitchen, I would mount it under a cabinet (near the stove). And in the bedroom I would likely just use the flashlight under the head of my bed.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Brian H on February 19, 2007, 04:34:41 PM
Not going to be an easy task on the modify to run on the UPS.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on February 19, 2007, 08:12:06 PM
I think I'll just stick to purchasing a lamp module and take it to the local "electronics repair guy" and see if he can modify it to work properly on a UPS. :)

And a modified lamp module will do what to meet your requirements?
I guarantee you'll get nowhere.  It'd be cheaper to find a new UPS which works with the TM751.

Per my previous suggestion, here's a relay and a box to mount the whole thing in:
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/RLY-453/500/120_VAC_RELAY,_DPDT_12_AMPS_.html
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/1591-MSBK/219/BLACK_PLASTIC_CASE,_3.3%22#34;_X_2.2%22#34;_X_1.04%22#34;_.html                                                       
Relay + Box + S&H = $11.55
2 extension cords (from Dollar Tree) = $2.00
Total parts: $13.55
Labor from your "local electronics repair guy" (presuming you're electrically and mechanically incompetent): 1 hour @ $100/hour
Total parts and labor = $113.55

if you want local control via RF in addition to the light when the power goes off, insert the plug "A" I described into the TM751 plugged into the wall socket.  It'll just work backwards - turn on the TM751 and the lamp will go off, and vice-versa.

I'm outta here.

Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: vhoang on March 02, 2007, 07:14:55 AM
I was working on a different forum post and realized another solutioin for this that *might* work ok.

Universal module in front of the UPS.
PowerFlash module behind.
one pair of wire leading from the UM to the PF.

And bingo, a simple way to hop across any PLC blockage.    Might need a couple of filters here and there to clean the setup up, but hey, it's just and idea.

Downstream of the PF you can have your socketrocket or a sturdy LM module.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: dave w on March 02, 2007, 12:17:12 PM
FWIW thought on this topic:

I wonder if plugging the TM 751 into problem UPS, through a 1:1 isolation transformer would smooth the output of the "modified waveform" UPS enough that the TM751 would tolerate it?

Anybody ever experimented?
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: gil shultz on June 13, 2007, 03:40:41 AM
Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?

The internal filters and transformer typically block the x-10 signal.  Get a small project box, two three wire line cords and two 0.1uf 600V capacitors.    Put the two line cords in the project box.  Connect the green wires together.  Connect one capacitor from white wire to white wire, do the same with the other except connect from black wire to black wire.  Be sure to use good workmanship so there are no shorts.  Then plug one cord into the output of the UPS, the other into the same plug the UPS is plugged into.  In most cases this should bridge the UPS for the X-10 signal.  This does not always work but in some cases it is all you need.

Be careful there are line voltages involved. You do this at your own risk.

Gil Shultz

Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Puck on September 11, 2007, 06:41:25 PM
michrech: I see you have your UPS power failure light solved. (I'm  only quoting the relevant parts.)

I have a normal, 2 pin, lamp module ... that I plug into the back of an APCC UPS ...  I use the "Slim Switch" and a wireless transceiver ...  The lamp has a 12w CF bulb ....  As soon as the power goes out and the UPS switches to battery, the lamp module automatically turns on (I don't know why, but it is perfect for what I need).

Using a CFL lamp with an X10 lamp module [LM465 (?)] is not advised and even cautioned against by the X10 manual.

"The Lamp Module can be used to control an incandescent lamp rated up to
300W. It is not suitable for other types of lamps such as fluorescent or energy
saving lamps
, low voltage lamps, or lamps that include a dimmer control.
Caution: Do not connect an appliance such as a coffee pot or heater to a Lamp
Module. It may damage the Module and/or the appliance and could cause a fire
hazard. Use an Appliance Module instead
."

You might want to be careful if you ever have to change it and end up with a lamp module that (undocumented) has soft start.The CFL lamp may not appreciate it.

Nonetheless, using an appliance (CFL light) with a dimmable lamp module if not recommended; be careful, because if may still provide you with the light you want, but I strongly recommend having an extinguisher handy. ;)

You previously mentioned that you had problems with a transceiver plugged into the output of the UPS, I'm surprised the lamp module is not acting similar.

You also mention using a transceiver and a "Slim Switch"... are these used in conjunction with your UPS powered lamp module? Is so, where is the transceiver plugged into?
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: tploy on January 19, 2013, 01:50:04 AM
All the above suggestions are good but don't quite go far enough. 1) a CFL Bulb plays havoc with x-10 signals and are a major headache but can be worked with. 2) what you will actually need to get around the inherent problems would be actually: 2> 120 vac relay coils. 3> extension cords. 1> UPS any size will work, however, the larger the battery the longer the lighting will last. 1 x-10 module and compatible controller.

 assembly goes like this:
solder 1 male extension cord pigtail to first relay floating contacts. this will plug into the UPS. wit no power applied to the coil solder the female extension cord pigtail to the pair of terminals the floating contacts are in contact with. this allows the UPS to power the CFL when the utility power is off. you can easily power up to 3  CFL Light fixtures from the UPS via the 3 female outlets on the female pigtail.

Next is the assembly of the second relay. this allows the x-10 system to turn on and off the lamps remotely at any time. To do this, connect the coil of the first relay to the floating contacts of the second relay with a short jumper. Attach the second male pigtail to the terminals of the second relay contacting to the floating contacts with no power applied to the coil of the second relay. this male pigtail will plug into normal household current to signal the CFL that is doesn't need to be UPS powered.

The Third Male Pigtail will attach to the coil of the second relay to provide connection to the x-10 module for remote operation. when the x-10 provides power to the circuit the coil of the second relay is energized disconnecting the power to the first relay. with no power to the coil of the first relay the power from the UPS will be allowed to feed the CFL lights.

When the x-10 module is in the off position, there is no power to the second relay coil, allowing the contacts in the second relay to close providing power to the first relay. With power applied to the coil of the first relay, the contacts of the first relay are disengaged by the coil keeping the power from the UPS from feeding the CFL fixtures. Thus the lights will be OFF.

If the module used is either a wall outlet, an appliance module or a lamp module, they will all be isolated from the CFL thus not receiving interference from either the CFL or the UPS. A Wall switch or another controller can be used to command the module used in this setup with no signal interference either RF or Line based. I hope this setup answers your application.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: Brian H on January 19, 2013, 06:32:27 AM
Using a Lamp Module to drive a relay is not the best choice.
They are not made to drive an inductive coil of a relay and are much less current than the Lamp Module was designed to control.
Depending on the exact relay and Lamp Module it may or may not work.

Also listen to the relay and see if it is buzzing when the X10 module is Off. Older Lamp and Appliance Modules have a Local Sensing current and I have seen small current coils of relays buzz when an X10 module is Off.
Title: Re: Control of a lamp plugged into an APC UPS?
Post by: dave w on January 20, 2013, 12:40:23 PM
I agree with Brian.

FWIW
From experience, if the 120V coil is fairly low current (higher resistance coil), the relay may not de-energize when the Lamp Module is turned OFF because of the current leakage through the Lamp Module. Some relays work fine, others don't.
Also from experience; I have had better luck using a higher current DPDT relay. Typically the coil is a little heavier so de-energizing the relay is more assured. The example has a 3.8k Ohm coil where a corresponding 10 amp DPDT has a 5k Ohm coil.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS/1.html