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Hi folks. I have X10 in the house, using a CM11A to control the lights, some floor fans, etc. It works GREAT and has been working for many years (since the CP290 daze).
What I need now is a relay device, like an appliance module - X10 or otherwise - that will default to OFF after a power failure. In other words, it would be wonderful for me if the appliance module's relay simply dropped to OPEN and stayed there after a power failure, instead of returning to it's pre-PF state.
I know I can program controllers for a power failure setting and put that controller on a sensing-UPS, etc. etc. etc. - the issue is, by the time the power comes back up, and the controller responds to turn the module off the damage (literally) can already be done.
Does anyone know of a module or device that will let a motor/system stay OFF after a power failure until manually reset? Thanks!!
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Good Evening,
This is not hard if I can explain it (I cannot figure out how to attach a sketch):
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/latchon2.jpg)
Schematic courtesy of KDR
- Feed 115VAC NEUTRAL (White wire) directly to the 115VAC Relay Coil terminal.
- Feed 115VAC HOT (Black wire) to one side of the:
- NO (normally open) Push Button Switch
- NO (normally open) Relay Contacts
- Connect the remaining 115VAC Relay Coil terminal to the other side of the:
- NO (normally open) Push Button Switch
- NO (normally open) Relay Contacts
When the Push Button Switch is pressed, the Relay Coil will energize and the NO Relay Contact will keep it energized until the power fails. If you have a second NO Relay Contact, use that for your Load. If not, connect the Load across the Relay Coil but be sure the NO Push Button Switch contacts can support the additional current of the connected Load.
www.MPJA.com has 30A relays for under $5.00 that will do this. Look for there item number 15832 RL. These are surplus and will not last long.
NO
Push
Button
|-----O O-----|
| |
115VAC BLK------X-------||-------X------Relay Coil
NO
Relay
Contact
115VAC WHT------------------------------Relay Coil
115VAC GRN------------------------------Project Metal Case
Hope this helps. Go to your local home improvement store and get a metal box and cover to put this in. Be sure to connect the 115VAC GROUND (Green wire) to the box for safety.
Be careful there is the possibility of shock and or fire with this project.
Good Luck
Gil Shultz
[TTA Edit: Formatted for IMPACT, edited for clarification and SAFETY; corrected logic error in text.
NOTE to steven r: Yes, this took MUCH LONGER than initially anticipated! :o :)]
Original Text and ASCII Diagram: Feed 115V white wire to a 115V relay coil. Connect one side of the NO (normally open contact) to the other relay coil. Connect the 115V Black to the other side of the NO coil. Place a NO switch contact across the NO contacts. When pressed the coil will energize and the NO contact will keep it energized until the power fails. If you have a second NO contact use that, if not connect across the coil but be sure the NO switch can support the connected load.
____ Button
|------O O--------|
------|-------------||------|-------Coil
NO Cotact
-------------------------------------Coil
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...This is not hard if I can explain it (I cannot figure out how to attach a sketch):
The Finer Art of Posting to the Forums - Pictures Are Worth a Thousand Words! (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=10516.msg60285#msg60285)
:)
P.S. to gil shultz: THANKS for the three informative "Techie" posts last night - I enjoyed reading them. Do you check your PMs?]
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Here's a schematic of the above that might help in understanding it a bit more.
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/latchon.jpg)
As mentioned above, the relay and momentary switch should be rated at least 1-1/2 times the rating of the load for a good safety factor.
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
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...As mentioned above, the relay and momentary switch should be rated at least 1-1/2 times the rating of the load for a good safety factor.
Should probably go for a DPST NO 120VAC Relay to allow a minimum capacity NO Push Button Switch. ;)
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As TTA suggested here is the same circuit but with a DPST relay. This allows the momentary switch to be rated at a lower current since the only current draw is that of the relay coil.
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/latchon2.jpg)
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
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To bad Jasper hasn't returned to the forum to see the excellent latching relay diagram KDR has created.
Name: Jasper
Posts: 1 (0.012 per day)
Position: Newbie
Post rating: +0/-0
Date Registered: April 12, 2007, 01:50:57 pm
Last Active: April 16, 2007, 12:22:28 pm
Perhaps it has helped one of the other almost 400 folks that have read it.
I know it will be helpful in the future for someone.
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To bad Jasper hasn't returned to the forum to see the excellent latching relay diagram KDR has created.
And my re-formatted, color-coded LIST of instructions is what? :'( <sniff>
Personally, I'm curious as to what gil shultz's reaction is going to be...
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And my re-formatted, color-coded LIST of instructions is what?...
It goes without saying he's missing your rainbow of text.
Actually I was looking forward to the question. "...but I wanted to turn it on with X10?" :)
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Actually I was looking forward to the question. "...but I wanted to turn it on with X10?" :)
"CHILDREN - DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME, I AM A PROFESSIONAL ;) I use a Universal module, but don't tell anyone.
Also (although off topic) You can use 120V "Make on Delay" relays (Artisan Controls, Syracuse Electronics, etc) to power your latching relay. I use them to wait for 3 to 4 minutes after power restoration before energizing computer power strips or the HVAC compressor. Helps to eliminate problems caused by the usual power line instabilities and brown outs as the grid trys to come back.
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Even if Jasper does not chose to see the great work by all that contributed. It will help more than one; that does read it.
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...You can use 120V "Make on Delay" relays (Artisan Controls, Syracuse Electronics, etc) to power your latching relay....
I got lost googling for relays but a "Make on Delay" one would be good for my application. I want one to close the contacts on a powerflash module a few minutes after power is restored to trigger my power recovery macro. I figure it wouldn't need to carry much load.
Any relay that you would recommend?
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Also try googling for "time delay relay".
I bought several time delay units from surplus years ago I think they were "SAS" brand
Could you use this:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16271
and the N.C. contacts of a 120V relay?
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Use an old AC-to-DC power adapter (to step the voltage down) that connects up to a very simple 555 timer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/555_timer_IC) (for the delay), and have the 555 drive the Universal Module?
In sort of a Rube Goldberg method, AC power is restored to the power adapter. The power adapter triggers the 555 timer, which delays for 3 minutes. After the delay, it triggers the Universal Module which sends an X10 power line command to the waiting CM15A. The CM15A "sees" the PLC, and triggers a macro. The macro sends PLC "off" signals to the appliance modules, which in turn, turn 'off' the fans.
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...Could you use this: http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16271...
They describe the trigger for this to be closing an external NO switch. Also it is a stay energized for a set time instead of a delay to energize. That's the size I'm looking for. however.
I just reread your answer. Are you suggesting attaching a normally closed relay this product to negate its function? I think the signal would be sent to the powerflash before the signal would trip the 2nd relay.
I want 1 relay that delays for a few minutes and then closes.
This (http://www.artisancontrols.com/pdf/438.pdf) is closer to what I'm needing. I'd still need to modify its delayed out from it to trigger the Powerflash module. Maybe some simple circuit to step down the voltage. to an acceptable input for the Powerflash trigger.
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They describe the trigger for this to be closing an external NO switch. Also it is a stay energized for a set time instead of a delay to energize. That's the size I'm looking for. however.
I just reread your answer. Are you suggesting attaching a normally closed relay this product to negate its function? I think the signal would be sent to the powerflash before the signal would trip the 2nd relay.
I want 1 relay that delays for a few minutes and then closes.
This (http://www.artisancontrols.com/pdf/438.pdf) is closer to what I'm needing. I'd still need to modify its delayed out from it to trigger the Powerflash module. Maybe some simple circuit to step down the voltage. to an acceptable input for the Powerflash trigger.
Walt2's idea of the 555 is probably a better way to go, but:
I found lots of "Make on Delay" relays by googling "time delay relay" but none from surplus suppliers, hence they were $35 to $300 in price.
As far as the timer module; my cheap suggestion relies on some hysteresis in your system, but the idea was to have the timer module to a power 120V relay and connect the N.C. contacts of the relay to the powerflash.
When power is first restored, the adjustable time module will power the relay OPENING the contacts across the Powerflash. I figure the Powerflash MIGHT see a few milliseconds of the N.C. contacts but it won't have time to send an ON X10 code. After your predetermined delay the timer module de-energizes the relay and a closure is then applied to the Powerflash.
Hey a synapse just fired.... Use the relay N.C. contacts to supply power to the Powerflash and just put a short across the input terminals.
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Hey a synapse just fired.... Use the relay N.C. contacts to supply power to the Powerflash and just put a short across the input terminals.
A word of caution here, and I hope some other Forum readers can share their experience to help clarify the situation.
Last year I used a similar trick with a thermostat, a PF284 Powerflash and an appliance module to install a solar heat redistribution system in my house. I posted that system and a separate write up on the trick itself in the Forum.
I just tried to use the same trick in the attic fan control system I just posted and discovered that the PSC01 Powerflash doesn't seem to send out an X10 signal when it's powered up, if the input terminals are shorted, like the PF284 does. Because of this I've had to make small changes to the attic fan control system wiring and programming which will be posted shortly. Since the two applications aren't exactly identical I need more information from others to help decide whether the differences in the two systems or the devices themselves caused the problem.
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Oh, good to know, OT.
Walt2's 555 is looking even better.
stevenr
You will need to test your Powerflash units to see if they will transmit an ON when power is applied with the input terminals shorted before using the synapse idea.
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...the PSC01 Powerflash doesn't seem to send out an X10 signal when it's powered up, if the input terminals are shorted, like the PF284 does....
...You will need to test your Powerflash units to see if they will transmit an ON when power is applied with the input terminals shorted...
What I have right now is a PowerFlash model PSC01 with the contacts shorted. If I unplug it and then replug it, it will send a signal.
I want the delay to increase reliability of the setup. i.e. Make sure the power has really been restored rather than just a flicker on and off.
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What I have right now is a PowerFlash model PSC01 with the contacts shorted. If I unplug it and then replug it, it will send a signal.
Thank you for the additional info. It's just what I needed. I think what happened is that I had a loose connection in the attic XPFM wiring in front of the PSC01. When it switched on the vibration jiggled the connection and the noise blocked the signal from the PSC01. I could see it on my ELK meter but didn't know what was causing it. It turns out the rewiring, which also corrected the loose connection, and the program changes gave a better attic system anyway so nothing was lost in the process except some hair.
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...You will need to test your Powerflash units to see if they will transmit an ON when power is applied with the input terminals shorted...
What I have right now is a PowerFlash model PSC01 with the contacts shorted. If I unplug it and then replug it, it will send a signal.
I want the delay to increase reliability of the setup. i.e. Make sure the power has really been restored rather than just a flicker on and off.
Wohoo! Then regrding use of the timer module: the only unanswered question is; If you use a short instead of the momentary push button, will the timer module will: Start, energize the the relay, time out and de-energize the relay (you are using the N.C. contacts remember) when the power is interupted. I'm excited because I can't find any $5 make-on-delay modules any more, and these might be a cheap(er) fix.
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16271
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/RLY-453/500400/120_VAC_RELAY,_DPDT_12_AMPS_.html
So Steve, who's going to buy a "G16271" to see if it works, first? :D
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Good Evening,
Thanks for the comments. I do not have a clue as to what PMs are nor do I know how to insert pictures but thanks for the nice comments.
If you want to do it with X10 since you have the box etc for the relay get a relay with a lower voltage coil such as a 12VDC coil then get a plug supply rated at least enough current to power the relay. Assume the relay coil is 12VDC 150 ma. Any plug supply rated at 12VDC 150 ma or greater will work i.e. if it is rated at 1A no problem. AC relays work also just use an ac output plug supply. Connect the plug supply to the relay coil. Use the relay contacts for your load. Surplus plug supplies are less then $5.00.
Then plug the wall supply into an appliance module and you are all set.
Have Fun
Gil Shultz
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...I do not have a clue as to what PMs are...
At the top-left of your screen, just under X10 Wireless Home, you'll see "User Info". The first line "should say":
Hey, gil shultz, you have NNN messages, YY is/are new.
CLICK on the NNN messages and catch up on all the PMs folks have been sending you! :D
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Good Evening,
In the many years I have been in the electronic and power arenas; I do not over rate the device that is spending money that I can use on something else. I use the manufacturer’s ratings, they build the things, they also understand what they can do much better then I and they guarantee them at there rating. The real problem is understanding the load.
Good Luck
Gil Shultz