X10 Community Forum

💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: john murphy on October 10, 2005, 11:10:20 AM

Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk? [4 of 5]
Post by: john murphy on October 10, 2005, 11:10:20 AM
Jimmie, <BR>Daniel is not frustrated with the X10 <BR>concept, he is pissed at the COMPANY X10, for <BR>their piss poor operation. And specifically <BR>their wireless X10 products and the support <BR>of such. <BR>Which without a doubt suck. I called to <BR>question the capability of the low light <BR>camera or rather lack of functionality and <BR>was told if I didn't want the camera to <BR>return it. Instead of getting pissed and <BR>boxing the crap up I starting messing with <BR>it. I figured I had a 90% chance that my <BR>returning the product experience, would be as <BR>unpleasant as my phone calls. <BR>I noticed a X10 person does touch base in the <BR>contractor forums. But the response are <BR>mostly links to the web sites lame FAQ's and <BR>tech docs. <BR>After reading the policy at the bottom of the <BR>forum post page, and reading some of the <BR>posts, it's obvious that noone from X10 <BR>moderates these things. <BR>If I had the cash, I'd buy the company, <BR>****can everyone and start over, beginning <BR>with R&D. <BR>


Are all x10 products cheap junk? [1 of 5] (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=12304.msg41033#msg41033)

Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk? [2 of 5] (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=12301.msg41659#msg41659)

Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk? [3 of 5] (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=12302.msg41762#msg41762)

Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk? [5 of 5] (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=12306.msg41962#msg41962)


[TTA Edit: Experiment to determine whether or not SPLITTING 'Highly-Viewed' / 'Highly-Replied' but currently INACTIVE threads from LONG, LONG AGO (I'm starting with ~2 years) into parts will allow current ACTIVE threads to appear in the Top 10 Topics (by Replies) section of the Statistics Center (aka More Stats) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?action=stats) Page.

NOTE: I *WILL* address the <BR> problem...]
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: jimmie l on October 10, 2005, 11:29:14 AM
OK!

Most of my clients come to me, not X10. I
then either give the answer if I have it or
work at finding one.

Remember, you are dealing with a large
corporation. Most of their employees are
hired because they have the right
paperwork, it doesn't mean they know
anything, or if they do they don't know how
to apply it.

If you have questions you know how to get
hold of me. Maybe I have some answers.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: daniel toner on October 10, 2005, 01:42:25 PM
Jimmie, you're a nice guy but it's not your
responsibility to cover for their stupidity.
Also problems rarely lie with the "bottom"
employee. The problem is with the managers
and trainers for their support team, and
their performance is a direct reflection of
the individuals in charge who have the
ability to clean the whole thing up. A small
correction here though, my frustration is
indeed with the poor quality of the product
AND the poor customer service. So actually,
I'm all around pissed at X10.

Topic: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Answer: YES!
Does X10 care in the slightest?
Answer: NO!
Do they care enough to AT LEAST offer amazing
customer support for their faulty products?
Answer: NO!

Now primarily my problem is with their
cameras and other related products. X10 does
a decent job with wireless relay switches so
you can turn your lights on and off with a
remote. They're great for just that and
that's all.

Their marketing team is top notch! They
peddle their crap all over the internet.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: bh on October 14, 2005, 02:49:57 PM
My night light/camera broke after one night
on. The lack of set up instructions make the
whole system useless. I want my money back.
I will be putting in a credit card dispute.

From an aircraft electrical engineer!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: bh on October 14, 2005, 02:50:14 PM
My night light/camera broke after one night
on. The lack of set up instructions make the
whole system useless. I want my money back.
I will be putting in a credit card dispute.

From an aircraft electrical engineer!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: bh on October 14, 2005, 02:50:38 PM
My night light/camera broke after one night
on. The lack of set up instructions make the
whole system useless. I want my money back.
I will be putting in a credit card dispute.

From an aircraft electrical engineer!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: alex on October 23, 2005, 12:13:18 AM
to John Murphy (9/23/05)

lay off the profane language
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: john murphy on October 24, 2005, 12:10:51 AM
To Alex

Yes mother.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: mj on October 26, 2005, 01:38:57 PM
          1 of 3
My story in short:
I just got involved with home automation /
surveillance at the beginning of this month
after an impulse buy (Iíll get to that in a
minute.)

Once I got it home I did some research on
other systems that were available, which is
how I came across X10.

Executive Summary:
You get what you pay for!

Details:
Since I was / am on a budget, I needed an
expandable system that wasnít going to cost
me an arm and a leg.  My primary goal has
been to have a computer controlled system
with 4 reasonably secure cameras and the
ability to add home automation features
later.

The Impulse:
The impulse buy was for a Motorola HomeSight
system from Samís Club.  It cost $300 before
tax, came with 2 wireless cameras (with
built in motion sensors), software, a door
sensor, and the base unit.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: mj on October 26, 2005, 01:39:07 PM
          1 of 3
My story in short:
I just got involved with home automation /
surveillance at the beginning of this month
after an impulse buy (Iíll get to that in a
minute.)

Once I got it home I did some research on
other systems that were available, which is
how I came across X10.

Executive Summary:
You get what you pay for!

Details:
Since I was / am on a budget, I needed an
expandable system that wasnít going to cost
me an arm and a leg.  My primary goal has
been to have a computer controlled system
with 4 reasonably secure cameras and the
ability to add home automation features
later.

The Impulse:
The impulse buy was for a Motorola HomeSight
system from Samís Club.  It cost $300 before
tax, came with 2 wireless cameras (with
built in motion sensors), software, a door
sensor, and the base unit.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: mj on October 26, 2005, 01:40:40 PM
          2 of 3+?
The Research:
HomeSight - Couldnít find the kit online, so
I guess itís a memberís only thingÖ  The
problem is that an add-on camera was another
$150!  Even though light control wasnít a
primary goal, it would be $60 for one
controller!  (Go here for details and links
for pricing:
http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/home_
monitoring.asp)
= $600 for 4 cameras and no other
capabilities.

Insteon / Smarthome Ė Seems like a super
reliable setup with 2 way communication, but
I couldnít seem to find good Ďkitsí on their
site. Looks like the computer controller and
software is like $189.
(http://www.smarthome.com/1411cu.html) But,
but, but. Could go on about thatÖ OK, so
they have a 4 wireless cam kit for $300, but
I am still unclear as to how they want you
to hook the cams to the system, especially
since they donít have ĎInsteoní based cams.
Itís like you really have 2 separate
systems.  Looks like they have a computer
interface for video signals for $109Ö
= $598 for a mess of a system that I still
am unsure if it will work + expensive add-on
modules

Other Ė There are tons of other systems out
there, many of which look to be much more
reliable and 'better' than X10, but you have
to look at the costs! $80-90 to control a
lamp!? Why?
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: mj on October 26, 2005, 01:43:47 PM
          3 of 4 (Read from bottom up please)
X10 Ė After scouring their website, I was
still indecisive, so I called.  I spent over
an hour on the phone with my sales guy. In
short, 4 Cams - $110, ActiveHome Pro,
iWitness, Base unit, etc. - $100.  (bought a
ton of other crap too, but thatís not the
point.)
= $210 for tons of problems, yes, but Iíve
got most of them worked out (thanks forum
regulars Ė sorry Iíve been lurking) Ė Yes,
their customer service SUCKS, but when was
the last time you got through to Microsoft?
Yes, the system tends to be unreliable, but
itís nothiní that a phase coupler, an extra
transceiver, and a few macros canít fix.

How much have I spent now? UghÖ
= $685 ($735 w/ warranties) Ė 4 wired cams
with Pan/Tilt + Multiplexer, ActiveHome Pro,
iWitness, Smart Macros, Base CM15A, USB Vid
Converter, 4 Camera remotes, 2 Palm Pad
remotes, 2 keychain remotes, 2 outdoor
motion floodlights, 6 motions sensors, 2
dimming wall switches, 8 Reg wall switches,
9 lamp modules, 7 appliance modules, 2
additional TM751 Transceivers, a chime, a
phase coupler (non X10 brand), and a 2 year
extended warranty for most of it.

Considering how much that would have cost on
any other system, Iíll take the
quirks / 'quality issues' of the X10 system.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: mj on October 26, 2005, 01:45:24 PM
          4 of 4 (Read from bottom up please)

Actually, for all of you who are complaining
about how bad these products are and how bad
support is, why donít you price out another
integrated system with the capabilities of a
system like mine? How about the system you
are working on... How much would that cost?

Bottom Line:
I would gladly have to read some forums, put
up with rude support staff, flaky modules,
and sub par camsÖ
if I can save THOUSANDS of dollars and
actually afford it!
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: SnotGeezer on November 07, 2005, 01:45:44 PM
dont be so melodramatic mary.  go to ebay
and buy junk from who knows who.  it is the
same crapshoot as x10, but better stuff
with more options.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: SnotGeezer on November 07, 2005, 01:49:17 PM
thousands of dollars?  i can buy decent
quality ccd cameras for the same price as
x10 cmos junk.  the image quality is better
and so far the products actually work.
just search the web with yo favjorite
rengine and you will find all sorts of
suppliers.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: goluxgo on November 09, 2005, 04:44:40 AM
I have been using x10 for 20 years and still
have many original modules.I bought a 4
camera system for $279 and set it up on a
bench and tested it and sorted out a few
problems I encountered.The cameras work
great if they are placed properly in respect
to the reciever.I live in a brick house and
have a brick detached garage that has 1
camera.The signal will pass through 2 brick
walls but not 3.Managed to work around that
one.The garage is on a subfeed and a
different phase than most of the house.A
mini transiever plugged in an outlet on each
phase using the same house code actualy
works better than a bridge in the electrical
panel.The USB A/D converter is poor and
useless.A better one from Costco will
probably help quality a lot.The software
crashes are mainly due to MS installing the
default intel driver and not the X10 driver.
The picture quality on video tape is very
good for this price range and the video
commander does a good job for a simple stick
on device.5 min motion sensor delay,5 min
video commander record time,5 min motion
sensor lights....works,and is
simple.Or,leave the VCR on record and let
the firecracker module do the
switching.Anyone who works in the alarm
industry knows that even the good stuff
needs a lot of engineering and fiddling to
work.Every application is different and
needs some improvision.
The reality is that these systems need a
professional to do them quickly and
affectively.Otherwise it's a lengthy and
time consuming job to get a good result.This
forum would be very helpful for some less
technical people if it was used positively.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: goluxgo on November 09, 2005, 04:45:32 AM
I have been using x10 for 20 years and still
have many original modules.I bought a 4
camera system for $279 and set it up on a
bench and tested it and sorted out a few
problems I encountered.The cameras work
great if they are placed properly in respect
to the reciever.I live in a brick house and
have a brick detached garage that has 1
camera.The signal will pass through 2 brick
walls but not 3.Managed to work around that
one.The garage is on a subfeed and a
different phase than most of the house.A
mini transiever plugged in an outlet on each
phase using the same house code actualy
works better than a bridge in the electrical
panel.The USB A/D converter is poor and
useless.A better one from Costco will
probably help quality a lot.The software
crashes are mainly due to MS installing the
default intel driver and not the X10 driver.
The picture quality on video tape is very
good for this price range and the video
commander does a good job for a simple stick
on device.5 min motion sensor delay,5 min
video commander record time,5 min motion
sensor lights....works,and is
simple.Or,leave the VCR on record and let
the firecracker module do the
switching.Anyone who works in the alarm
industry knows that even the good stuff
needs a lot of engineering and fiddling to
work.Every application is different and
needs some improvision.
The reality is that these systems need a
professional to do them quickly and
affectively.Otherwise it's a lengthy and
time consuming job to get a good result.This
forum would be very helpful for some less
technical people if it was used positively.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: johnniki on November 09, 2005, 12:55:22 PM
goluxgo,
it sounds like you are pretty knowledgeable
(I didn't even know what some of the items
you mention even are!)
Would you be willing to help me (maybe via
email) with some advice or recommendation?
I posted a lengthy question but had no
responses yet so I'm still hoping to find
someone who's 'in the know' to advise me.

Niki
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: johnniki on November 09, 2005, 12:55:39 PM
goluxgo,
it sounds like you are pretty knowledgeable
(I didn't even know what some of the items
you mention even are!)
Would you be willing to help me (maybe via
email) with some advice or recommendation?
I posted a lengthy question but had no
responses yet so I'm still hoping to find
someone who's 'in the know' to advise me.

Niki
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: johnniki on November 09, 2005, 12:58:11 PM
goluxgo,
it sounds like you are pretty knowledgeable
(I didn't even know what some of the items
you mention even are!)  Would you be willing
to help me (maybe via email) with some
advice or recommendation?  I posted a
question but had no responses yet so I'm
still hoping to find someone who's 'in the
know' to advise me.

Niki
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: thedanc on November 09, 2005, 01:29:41 PM
What is your question, Niki?
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: goluxgo on November 09, 2005, 02:45:50 PM
I have phoned X10 a  couple of times for
help with software and  advice on product
choice.They were really  helpful and
pleasant.The remarks on this  forum were a
real eye opener for me.I don't  believe what
I read from any  manufacturer....they all
lie by ommission.If  they didn't,they would
go broke.....that's  just the way it is
nowadays on the  internet.Most DIY products
are vastly  understated as far as
installation.I can see  why so many people
get frustrated and angry  with this
product.You really need a bit of  background
experience to work with it.
Goluxgo
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: thedanc on November 09, 2005, 03:57:49 PM
Support -
I find the same to be true, sorta.  The one
time I called for support I was amazed at
how helpful the support person was.
Granted, this was a simple question that he
knew off the top of his head which should
have been posted as a "Freqeuently Asked
Question" on the website and certainly
should have been contained in the
documentation.  I didn't know the answer
because I had never seen the equipment until
that week and the documentation is extremely
poor.

Lies of omission -
Certainly there is that, but the biggest
lies are the gross exagerations of what the
product can do.  For example, nightwatch
camera does not mean night it means slightly
dim.  These don't come with infrared
illuminators or wide apertures.  You need a
floodlight to go with it and that really
isn't night now is it?

My background and experience continues to
grow, so like I said before: as long as you
look at this like a fun and challenging
hobby and don't bet your business on this
being secure you will be OK.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: goluxgo on November 09, 2005, 04:15:43 PM
Night vision is a unique and expensive
technology and usually has a green hue.X10
claims the night watch camera to be 3 times
as sensitive as the xcam.I have used both
side by side and that claim is true.A 60
watt porch light is good enough up close.If
the camera is used with a motion sensor and
a flood,the results are good enough for
me.No low light camaera will look into
darkness and define anything.Those cameras
are very good at auto exposure and adjust
well for differing light settings up to a
point.All digital cameras are weak in low
light situations.
I worked all my life in the security
business, dealing only with banks and
government contracts...good quality
stuff.Started with 16mm film cameras(talk
about a nightmare)and through different
video technologies...my opinion,those $50
cameras work pretty damn good.Plus they
convert to NTSC and then microwave....we're
all spoiled.LOL.
Larry.
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: thedanc on November 09, 2005, 06:09:14 PM
Righto.  The nightwatch camera is more light
sensitive than the color camera, but the
color camera cannot see in the dim at all so
that doesn't say much.  I now have three
floodcams for my backyard for a total of 900
watts of light (2x150W on each floodcam).
The floodcams have a built in color camera,
so I need the light.  I have them tied
together with macros so that if one detector
sees motion the whole yard will light up.
To see what is going on though I need to
scan the cameras since their field of vision
is a very narrow 60 degrees.  I angled them
like the "interlocking fields of fire"
approach with the leftmost one pointing far
right, the rightmost one pointing far left,
and the remaining one down the middle.  This
all monitors the crappy little $25 barbeque
grill I have back there.  I have a lot of
footage of the neighbor's cat!  ;-)
-Dan
Title: Re: Are all x10 products cheap junk?
Post by: thedanc on November 09, 2005, 06:09:20 PM
Righto.  The nightwatch camera is more light
sensitive than the color camera, but the
color camera cannot see in the dim at all so
that doesn't say much.  I now have three
floodcams for my backyard for a total of 900
watts of light (2x150W on each floodcam).
The floodcams have a built in color camera,
so I need the light.  I have them tied
together with macros so that if one detector
sees motion the whole yard will light up.
To see what is going on though I need to
scan the cameras since their field of vision
is a very narrow 60 degrees.  I angled them
like the "interlocking fields of fire"
approach with the leftmost one pointing far
right, the rightmost one pointing far left,
and the remaining one down the middle.  This
all monitors the crappy little $25 barbeque
grill I have back there.  I have a lot of
footage of the neighbor's cat!  ;-)
-Dan