X10 Community Forum
🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Topic started by: donald mcmow on April 19, 2005, 09:14:11 PM
-
With Carmines years of experiance we would <BR>end up with HAL from Stanley Kubrick's <BR>Space 2001. Being an engineer does not make <BR>for good products all of the time. They <BR>tend to want to OVER engineer things that <BR>tend to bring the price up. Yess wee all <BR>want a working system but I don't want to <BR>put in a storage cabinate to hold <BR>everything. Now adays people want good <BR>products at cheap prices. No matter what <BR>you do there is a trade off - Price Versus <BR>quality.
Hardware Differences between Reg and Diag. Units [1 of 3] (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=4176.msg30192#msg30192)
Re: Hardware Differences between Reg and Diag. Units [3 of 3] (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=12353.msg30943#msg30943)
[TTA Edit: Experiment to determine whether or not SPLITTING 'Highly-Viewed' / 'Highly-Replied' but currently
INACTIVE threads from LONG, LONG AGO (I'm starting with ~2 years) into parts will allow current
ACTIVE threads to appear in the Top 10 Topics (by Replies) section of the
Statistics Center (aka More Stats) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?action=stats) Page.
NOTE: I *WILL* address the <BR> problem...]
-
Donald McMow - you must be a manager.
-
Donald
If X10 would implement the changes I
suggested , the box would be the same size
less the 4 AAA batteries. A button lithium
battery can power the clock chip for over
10 years with power off, there is no need
to keep the processor running during power
outage, just the clock.
I never designed products that are
complicate to use, I believe that if the
user need to read a manual in order use the
product than the product it’s not good
enough.
The user interface has to be simple, there
is nothing wrong with the current
interface, it’s user friendly, definitely a
lot easier than Smart Home software.
The hardware changes would make easier for
them to upgrade the firmware without
exchanging unit, and of course new features
could be added.
The memory used now is 64kbits(8Kbutes),
memory up 1Mbits can be added without
changing hardware, just a different part.
Have a look at our web site, manual are
there too, keep in mind these products are
for hazardous location(housing are
explosion proof) , therefore is very
expensive to add keypad, we use a single
button(magnetic switch) to activate menus
and set-up, in 3 languages(user selectable)
using only 4 character display(scrolling
messages), the menu structure(using a
single button) toke longer to develop than
the product itself, and with a lot of feed
back from our customers.
The new CM15,to the end user will be just
as simple, except it will be able to keep
up to with both wireless and powerline
command , event , timers …...
-
Donald part 2
The way I see it if X10 can achieve current
feature in all in one with a processor that
has 8K of code space and 256 bytes of ram
running at 6mhz; just think what they could
do with a processor that has 16K of code
space, 768 bytes of ram an external
hardware RTC, hardware ports to
communicate with the RF module and external
memory, and running at 24mhz.
It would be just as easy to use, but a lot
more fun.
-
Total cost of ownership and net margin are
interesting terms. Carmine has eloquently
addressed them both without enumerating the
obvious elements. Great answer, hope X10
gets it.
Our total cost of ownership is going up
every day that we try to make it work and X-
10’s net margin diminishes. They sold us
the product not as a Beta but as full
production… who owes who what?
My CM15A has cost me at least 100 times what
I paid for it . . . That is more than my
best PC!!!! How about you Donald, how much
has your inexpensive CM15A really cost you?
-
Sorry - No I am not a manager but I do see
the costs of so called engineers
developements.
Carmine: I would feel really embarased if I
were you as an engineer. Why? Because you
keep comparing apples and oranges. Your
equipment has to be more reliable, for the
simple reason that someones life may depend
on it whereas no ones life has to depend
upon the convienence of home automation. My
life isn't going to come to a standstill if
the kitchen light doesn't turn on when I
enter. I could do without the interface
whereas I couldn't do without a toxic gas
detector if I was working in the oil and
gas industry. It's all realative and
depends upon the users requirments. It also
depends upon what your willing to spend. If
you want a 100% working product then you
should be willing to spend the bucks to
back up the talk. If my life was to depend
upon the quality of a gas detector then I
would want to spend the money for a quality
product. Give it a rest. We know that you
don't like X10 products.
-
I might as well jump in on this one. I
agree with Carmine that some hardware
upgrades would be very beneficial.
However, I am not convinced that a price
range of “$100 to $200” would be
successful. Yes there are people out there
who would pay that much. Maybe even most
of the regulars on this forum would. If
they want to draw in new customers however,
they need to keep their price low. There
are third party solutions that are closer
to what Carmine is describing at a higher
price tag.
Unlike the situation Carmine described
where his company upgraded hardware to add
features, in this situation
few “marketable” new features would be
added, only improved reliability of the
features currently advertised. It is
difficult to market improved reliability.
-
OK, I get to pick on Donald M.'s comments
too (notice I said I am picking on his
comments, not him personally).
/1/ X10 markets the product heavily for
security system use, so safety is an issue.
/2/ Most importantly, regardless of
whether the product sells for $5 or $500,
and controls my bathroom light or my kidney
dialysis machine, X10 is LEGALLY OBLIGATED
to provide a product that does what it is
advertised to do, which includes operating
with a reasonable level of reliablity.
While the law does not specifically state
product must work "X%" of the time, I think
the large majority of forum users would
agree with the statement "the CM15A does
not function at its advertised capabilites,
with high reliability"
-
re "No matter what you do there is a trade
off - Price Versus quality."
Not true - the trade off should be price vs
features. Yes I'm engineer (over 30 years
in military and commercial aerospace).
Andy
-
Donald
The difference from a good product compared
to a lemon is usually few cents.
My changes would only add about $5 to $10
cost to the unit.
Think of this simple scenario:
Get an X10 sprinkler controller from WGL,
use your CM15a to send control it,
everything is working great; now take a
well deserved vacation, while you are
vacationing your trusted CM15a send a
command to turn on the sprinkler then it
crashes and the sprinkler remains on. If
you had a choice would pay and extra $50
for a unit that the chance of failing was
less than chance of winning a big lottery?
In early 80’s I had an intelligent
thermostat controlling my furnace, this was
a commercial grade controller and worked
great. I went for holiday ( in December),in
just a few days I received a frantic call
from my friend : he was checking my every
day, the house was very hot, the thermostat
crashed and the furnace stuck on. This only
happened once and the thermostat never
failed again, but I lost the food in the
freezer and shortly after I had to replace
my fridge.If the Idiot who designed that
thermostat would have enabled
the “watchdog” ( 0 cost added) once crashed
it would have restarted within
milliseconds , that was simple bad
engineering.
I never said I do not like X10, X10
technology can be reliable if used
properly, but the moment any &%$&% company
( not just X10, any X10 compatible)
advertise the product for security, they
better have a bullet proof system or get
out of the business and stick with toys.
-
On Donald’s behave I must point out that he
is probably too pragmatic to pay more for a
product for reliability in order to protect
his home when his home owner’s insurance
already covers it.
-
I have to agree with Andy truly great
engineering and design optimize the
compromise among all the aspects to best
solution and performance. And that always
includes price. Poorly designed and poorly
engineered products are always excused
as “you get what you pay for” or “the market
won’t support it “. To that I say bologna!
What ever happened to “ invent a better
mouse trap and the world will beat a path to
your door? America’s heritage is based on
better, faster, stronger, higher, more
affordable… lok at what Henry Ford did with
that… More current? – Try Intel.
-
Observer
Insurance will not cover a large water bill
due to an X10 malfunction, neither will pay
fines for false alarms.
My Alarm panel has burglary, fire,
environment and X10 capabilities, but X10
signals do not control any critical alarm
functions, the do allows me to control my
lighting and cameras from anywhere in the
world with a touch phone.
That was just an example of what can happen
if you choose to control critical equipment
with improperly designed products.
Insurance can replace property, sometimes
better than before, but it can not replace
priceless memories.
-
Roger H: I have to question your statement
(your statement not you) that an extra one
to two hundred dollars would be beyond its
market value. I spent over $300 for
filters, coupler/repeaters which have no
direct application value. Only as mandatory
options if you want to send X10 signals. I
would have chosen in a blink of an eye to
spent the money on the options that provide
direct functionality and reliability rather
then for my X10 friendly and clean power
line with a controller that has RF problems
and a bunch of bugs (on the market now over
8 months).
-
Disappointed: I didn’t say that no one
would pay for a more expensive controller.
There are people out there who will think
nothing of dropping a couple Gs on a home
automation system and there are companies
that provide high-end controllers for them.
From what I can tell, X10 is marketing to
lower end users and their controller needs
to be priced accordingly. A controller
can’t be everything for everyone.
As for spending over $300 for “filters,
coupler/repeaters,” you are the exception.
Most people can easily get away with the
following:
1 SignaLinc Phase Coupler* $19.99 ea
3 X10 Pro 5 Amp Plug-in Filter $15.99 ea
1 ACT 15 Amp Plug-in Filter $27.99 ea
TOTAL $95.95
* or a Hardwired SignaLinc™ Phase Coupler
for $15.99
If you have a large house, maybe you will
need to replace the Phase Coupler with a
Coupler-Repeater and add a few more noise
filters, but you can easily do that for
less than $300.
-
Roger H: I fell better already... as soon
as I find the difference of your count in my
wallet.
-
Well, another upgrade, some problems fixed
and some new problems are added;
The soap opera continues
“ActiveHome Pro update to v3.186 available”
-
As far as price and reliability goes,
compare AHP with smartmacros to the
Smarthome 1132CUP.
AHP with Smartmacros (lets face it AHP is
useless without Smartmacros)= $100
Smarthome 1132CPU (includes conditional
logic)=$100.
The quaility and reliability of the 1132CU
far exceeds the X10 product. Smarthome
managed to produce a product that is high
quality and very reliable, why can't X10,
well maybe it has to do with GREED. Its
not only the poor quality of the CM15A,
alot of X10's problems are due to the fact
that there tech support is non existant.
Anyone who owns there product has no clue
as to what X10's intensions are with
respect to fixing the problems that exist.
I spent 6 weeks trying to get the CM15A to
work properly and then realized that it
wont. I went with the smarthome product.
It took me a total of 3 hours to set up the
1132CU and has workrd flawlessly since.
The hours spent trying to figure out what
was wrong with my setup of the CM15A cost
me a whole lot more than the $100 I spent
on said equipment.
T.
-
As Tcassio put it , Smarthome 1132CUP has
all the features I want: Battery backup
Hardware Real Time Clock, NO AAA battery
required(no battery replacement for the
life of the product), has 32K external
memory for macros;
The software is less user friendly than
AHP, but more powerful, and most of all it
WORKS.
CM15a + external Transceiver = 1132CU +
external Transceiver; as you can see
smarthome has built a better mouse trap at
the same price; X10 pricing is deceiving it
just looks cheaper, if you put any value on
your time ( even $1 per hour) X10 products
are the most expensive on the market.
-
Tcassio: First of all, I don’t think AHP
is useless without SmartMacros. Don’t get
me wrong, SmartMacros are very nice, but it
isn’t useless without them.
Secondly, if you want to compare apples to
apples you need to compare the 1132CUP + a
whole house receiver with AHP +
SmartMacros. The V572AB Whole House
Receiver, for example, is $80 at Automated
Outlet.
-
Roger
The CM15a currently has a useless RF range.
In another thread most user agree that
CM15a + V572AB is the best solution at this
time, incidentally the 1132CU( no smart
macros) is $69.99, so is a customer choice:
Pay a little more for something that work,
or keep waiting for a miracle to happen.
The choice is yours
My 1132CUP is working great
-
Roger
My mistake, at Automated Outlet the 1132CU
is $59.99
1132CUP(smart macros) $99.99
Is $10 more too much to pay for something
that does work?
-
Carmine: Whether the RF range of the CM15A
is useful or not is irrelevant to my
argument. Tcassio was comparing the PRICE
and RELIABILITY of the 1132CUP to AHP +
SmartMacros. What I am saying is that the
1132CU doesn’t have the extra hardware
required for it to act as a transceiver and
this extra hardware costs money.
This comparison is like wondering why a
Ford Taurus isn’t as reliable as a Toyota
Camry when FULLY LOADED Taurus costs the
same as a BARE-BONES Toyota Camry. The
more options you add, the more it is going
to cost. If the cost doesn’t go up,
something else has to give.
-
Roger H:
Either something works or it doesn't. It's
like being pregnant no one is "somewhat"
pregnant.
My X10 application that worked with outside
lights, cameras, and motion sensors using
Commander II, DON'T WORK WITH AHP/CM15A!
BECAUSE THE RF CAN”T SEE THE SENSORS NOR
HANDLE THE RATE!!!!
-
Roger H: That is not fully loaded or
even "bare Rimed" without tires! Get the
picture IT IS WORTHLESS!
-
Roger and others with similar feelings
I would like to know what is this emotional
attachment to the CM15a; as it is, it does
not work all of the time, and it not very
useful without an external transceiver.
All component on my system are X10, the
RR501 is working great (I had no idea it
has collision detect) thanks to X10 Pro
suggestion, the only device that it’s not
X10 is the 1132CU; X10 has been very
understanding and just notified me they are
refunding my money in full.
I simply needed something working stand
alone now, We have a 10 month old baby, and
when the lights turn on full in stairs he
usually wakes up, now he enjoys a full
night sleep, and finally my wife and I are
getting some rest.
If the CM15a meets your requirement use it,
but please lets not get emotional about.
Years back I used to sale and service
engraving machine and supplies, on one
sales call I realized that the customer
would have been better off with a
competitor machine, I suggested to them the
competitor machine, we lost a $25000 one
time sale, but we gained the supply
business of this new customer; at the end
we had a net gain and a happy customer.
X10 will eventually have the CM15a working.
If you need a fully working solution now,
there are alternatives, and let’s get some
sleep (oops, I mean let’s have some fun).
-
Carmine:
Diplomatic words, they bought you off. You
can't possibly believe that they will fix
the AHP/CM15A. They have yet to put out a
piece of application software that is even
somewhat reliable let alone rock hard
dependable. Just look at their track record:
FireCracker -- Command Buffer display
emplty.
MultiView -- A slue of anomalies and its
been out how many years?
XrayVision -- 3 year old bugs still there.
AH -- 2 year old bugs still there.
AHP/CM15A -- 8 months and old bugs still
there RF not even a commitment!
You are too pregmatic to buy into that crap.
But you got what you wanted... may be (the
check is in the mail). :-)