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Hello,
I had X10 for the past few years. Most of my house uses X10 light switches. I also have a few lamp modules, appliance modules, motion sensors, security console and components, etc, all running with ActiveHome Pro. For the first few months I ran into flag issues and timer problems. I decided AHP is too unreliable without keeping it plugged into the computer all the time, so I keep it running at all times. After the first year I pretty much understood all of the issues I had and was OK with them, for the most part. Lately, however, the system started switching lights on and off without user interaction. My wife and kids call it the "ghost effect", because sometimes our lights go off and then immediatelly back on. This can happen once in the morning, three times in a row, in the evening, it is completely random. My question to the experts is this: Are these signs of bad hardware components? If so, how can I find the culprit? Remember, I have over 50 modules in various shapes and forms. Could it be a motion sensor going nuts? I replaced all the bateries on all motion sensors, but it didn't help. Is lights blinking on and off like this a sign of noise in the electric system? Any help in diagnosing this issue is highly appreciated.
Thank You!
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You obviously are an experienced X10 user but I'm surprised you have to keep the computer connected all the time to get the system to work. Is there a chance your CM15A has been defective all along?
Another possibility is to check the batteries in the CM15A. Mine behaved erratically when they dropped below the "good" point on a battery tester although the symptoms weren't the same as yours.
Do lights that aren't X10 operated go off and on when the X10 operated lights do? That would point to a power line problem somewhere.
Finally be aware that power company switching transients can interact with X10 modules to induce erratic behaviour in them.
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Wow a large set-up. 50 modules, motion sensors and AHP.
Could it be a motion sensor going nuts? Yes
I replaced all the batteries on all motion sensors, but it didn't help. Did you check the house unit codes? Motion sensors can default to the "A1" house/unit codes when the batteries go dead.
Also the .ahx files (AHP) can become corrupt. If it's the files stored on your AHP interface, reloading the file could help.
Do you have a re-sender somewhere in your system.... could it have been moved (even placed up higher) and it is now causing signal collisions?
Have you logged or checked the log in AHP.... to read what it says is happening, and compare that with what is supposed to be happening?
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I have "60 modules" though several are just virtual ones to let some of my 48 macros call each other. ;) Also 15 of them are just to get around an AHP bug so that AHP will monitor the right house code. So I guess you still have me beat.
David made some good suggestions. I'd also be interested to know if the events are showing up in the AHP log. I've had "ghost signals" that weren't recorded by AHP!
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Interesting problem. I had a period of time when all this x10 paraphernalia just would not work correctly too. It ended up being an old CRT monitor that was going bad. After I removed the monitor from the system, everything was back to normal almost instantaneous.
Another issue. A while back the hard disk crashed on the main computer that controls AHP. In the process of reinstalling AHP, drivers, registration, writing new macros ..., I suffered a lot of the problems that many of our newcomers suffer as they try to get this stuff up and running. In this process i noticed that some modules just would not work after a a AHP software crash. So after attempting a number of potential solutions I found that if I unpluged the module and pluged it back in, then I had instant success. Since that worked then i tried for a clean boot of the entire system where I shut down the computer, pulled the batteries from the CM15A (I tried this many times before this instance) and then shut down all of the power to the house. Maybe it is coincidence, but everything worked well after that. no more dead modules and no more transient commands. I am a Petrophysicist (non-electrical) so I am sure that one of our electrical engineering types will have a good explanation for this including just a coincidence. I have used it twice and have had complete success each time.
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azzar0
All of the previous suggestions are good ones.
Is it possible that you have a nearby neighbor that is using X10? Have you lost any remotes lately?If so could one of the neighbor kids have found it and having fun at your expense? :-\
;) :D ;D
Jim
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Did you check the house unit codes? Motion sensors can default to the "A1" house/unit codes when the batteries go dead.
Also the .ahx files (AHP) can become corrupt. If it's the files stored on your AHP interface, reloading the file could help.
Do you have a re-sender somewhere in your system.... could it have been moved (even placed up higher) and it is now causing signal collisions?
Have you logged or checked the log in AHP.... to read what it says is happening, and compare that with what is supposed to be happening?
All good suggestions, thank you.
- I checked the motion sensors and re-programmed to eliminate the A1 possibility. (I also have a lamp set to A1 to 'inform' me when I need to change batteries).
- I cleared the interface, reloaded a blank .ahx file to make sure I eliminate any lingering bugs, reloaded my 'real' file, same issues.
- I DO have a re-sender AND a phase coupler. I took out the re-sender - same issues, so I plugged it back in. I have to keep the phase coupler for obvious reasons.
- I also remember checking the log and none of these actions are recorded. It seems as if AHP is not aware of anything happening. Lights just go nuts and AHP thinks everything is cool.
Oh, and get this: I also noticed that my satellite signal is pixelated when I turn the (x10) lights on in the bedroom. Turn the lights off - perfect picture! I will have to unplug all my computer equipment (and I have a lot of those) and try to find the culprit that way. The problem is that these issues happen sporadically, so it's not like I can unplug everything, run a sequence, and be able to come to a conclusion. I have to wait and see how the system behaves after I make changes and, because I have to move slowly, I can only make one change at a time, otherwise I won't know what fixed the problem (if somehow the problem goes away).
I suspect noise on the electrical lines, but I just find it strange that it would happen all of a sudden, after so many years of running. I will report back with my progress.
Thanks again!
[TTA Edit: Added WHITESPACE and formatting to improve readability.]
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azzar0
All of the previous suggestions are good ones.
Is it possible that you have a nearby neighbor that is using X10? Have you lost any remotes lately?If so could one of the neighbor kids have found it and having fun at your expense? :-\
;) :D ;D
Jim
Actually I went to my neighbor's house, installed a couple of modules & a transceiver and tried to see if I can mess up my setup. The remote signal dosen't even reach my house. I setup his house on a different house code, just in case. I am taking 4 house codes, but his is set on a different one. I think I can safely say that this is not an issue. As for the remotes - my family can't even use them, leave alone sneaky neighbors, even if I did lose one ;)
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Is there a chance your CM15A has been defective all along?
Another possibility is to check the batteries in the CM15A. Mine behaved erratically when they dropped below the "good" point on a battery tester although the symptoms weren't the same as yours.
Do lights that aren't X10 operated go off and on when the X10 operated lights do? That would point to a power line problem somewhere.
Finally be aware that power company switching transients can interact with X10 modules to induce erratic behaviour in them.
Thanks for your comments. This is my 3rd CM15A. Of the three I tried, this one seems the more "robust" one, but it is still a couple of years old. I don't think the design has changed since then, so I see no need to 'upgrade'.
I didn't switch the batteries in the interface. Hmmm, what symptoms did you run into with low batteries? I will try that, it can't hurt ;)
It is only the X10 lights that go nuts. Honestly though, I wouldn't really know - most of them are X10 controlled hehehe. But there are a couple that are not and they don't seem to be affected by this issue.
If the power company does that - is there anything I can do to reset my system to work normally again?
Thanks for your input!
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Interesting problem. I had a period of time when all this x10 paraphernalia just would not work correctly too. It ended up being an old CRT monitor that was going bad. After I removed the monitor from the system, everything was back to normal almost instantaneous.
Another issue. A while back the hard disk crashed on the main computer that controls AHP. In the process of reinstalling AHP, drivers, registration, writing new macros ..., I suffered a lot of the problems that many of our newcomers suffer as they try to get this stuff up and running. In this process i noticed that some modules just would not work after a a AHP software crash. So after attempting a number of potential solutions I found that if I unplugged the module and plugged it back in, then I had instant success. Since that worked then i tried for a clean boot of the entire system where I shut down the computer, pulled the batteries from the CM15A (I tried this many times before this instance) and then shut down all of the power to the house. Maybe it is coincidence, but everything worked well after that. no more dead modules and no more transient commands. I am a Petrophysicist (non-electrical) so I am sure that one of our electrical engineering types will have a good explanation for this including just a coincidence. I have used it twice and have had complete success each time.
Interesting. I would like to hear an expert's opinion regarding this remedy. I will definitely try it ;)
The only CRT equipment I have in the house is my SONY WEGA tv, which I've had since before X10. The rest of my monitors and TVs are LCDs, anywhere from 17" to 46". I actually suspect my master bedroom TV (or entertainment system) to cause some problems, but I am not sure. I will unplug and see what happens.
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...I also remember checking the log and none of these actions are recorded. It seems as if AHP is not aware of anything happening. Lights just go nuts and AHP thinks everything is cool....
I guessed they might not be showing up. Do any of your macros have dim commands? It's good to follow dim commands with a 2 second delay. AHP has a bug that has been known to cause stray signals. The delays work kinda like fairy dust to solve the problem. Search for more discussion on this.
...I also noticed that my satellite signal is pixelated when I turn the (x10) lights on in the bedroom....
I love a good mystery but that is really weird. Is the cable to the satellite free from other cables? If you have a power cable wrapped with it, it might be picking up some inductance.
...I just find it strange that it would happen all of a sudden, after so many years of running....
My system worked fine for years in spite of 6 or 7 UPS units in the house. Then one day the signal just went poof. I had to go around the house adding filters everywhere.
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Maybe it is coincidence, but everything worked well after that. no more dead modules and no more transient commands. I am a Petrophysicist (non-electrical) so I am sure that one of our electrical engineering types will have a good explanation for this including just a coincidence. I have used it twice and have had complete success each time.
Interesting. I would like to hear an expert's opinion regarding this remedy. I will definitely try it ;)
The only CRT equipment I have in the house is my SONY WEGA tv, which I've had since before X10. The rest of my monitors and TVs are LCDs, anywhere from 17" to 46". I actually suspect my master bedroom TV (or entertainment system) to cause some problems, but I am not sure. I will unplug and see what happens.
NOT AN EXPERT
But I once wired a new circut for the in-laws. Just as I finished the lights went out. I knew I couldn't have caused the problem... but was looking over everything with a flashlight ... when they noticed the entire neighborhood was dark.
After the power outage, and power was restored, only half the house's power returned. The phase I had been working on, still didn't have power.
We called the power company, and they said it sounded like the power was out-of-phase. I've twisted a lot of wires, and my first thought was Bull$#&*. But I followed their directions and flipped off every breaker, then the main breaker. then all breakers back on, then the main breaker on. It worked.
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NOT AN EXPERT
But I once wired a new circut for the in-laws. Just as I finished the lights went out. I knew I couldn't have caused the problem... but was looking over everything with a flashlight ... when they noticed the entire neighborhood was dark.
After power outage, and power was restored, only half the house's power returned. The phase I had been working on, still didn't have power.
We called the power company, and they said it sounded like the power was out-of-phase. I've twisted a lot of wires, and my first thought was Bull$#&*. But I followed their directions and flipped off every breaker, then the main breaker. then all breakers back on, then the main breaker on. It worked.
Seems even the power company uses; "When all else fails, re-boot!" ;D
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Quick Update - I followed your advices and did the following:
- 1.) Eliminated noise from power strips (by replacing power strips with extension cords for the time being, until I get more noise filters)
- 2.) Turned off all brakers and main braker at the power panel, then turn them all back on
- 3.) Added a 1 or 2 sec delay after each 'dim' macro
- 4.) Cleared the Interface and re-loaded it
So far I haven't seen any more on/off/on behavior. One of the lamps that didn't work (on A10) because of the power strip noise is now working. I always knew that was a problem though, so no surprises there. I will let you know if I run into other problems.
Now I have questions regarding video recording macros, but that's a different thread, in a different area ;)
Thank You All for your input!
[TTA Edit: Added WHITESPACE and formatting to improve readability.]
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...1) Eliminated noise from power strips (by replacing power strips with extension cords for the time being, until I get more noise filters)...
Just a small clarification here:
- Power Strips are Signal Suckers - like a sponge or a female mosquito, they 'grab' all the available X10 signal and leave none, or very little, for your modules to 'hear'.
- Power Supplies are Noise Generators - like not being able to hear the phone or the door bell when the vacuum cleaner is running, they 'pollute' the power lines with noise making it very difficult for your modules to 'hear' actual X10 signals.
- Filters are 'Open Circuits' to X10 signals - Power Strips / Signal Suckers cannot SUCK the X10 signal away and Power Supplies / Noise Generators cannot OVERPOWER the X10 signal.
HTH... ;)
Be sure to read JeffVolp's *EXCELLENT* Tutorial Series for future information on this subject (included in the following Newbie Boilerplate LINK). ;)
MAP / MEASURE / CORRECT (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg62635#msg62635) - be sure to read the EXCELLENT articles written by JeffVolp and Puck (http://www.geocities.com/taketheactive/Images/X10_Updated_blue_sm_wte.gif)
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azzar0,
I'm new to the site and was reading about your mysterious lights. I hate to be a naysayer, but I'm betting you still have a noise source in the vicinity. I say vicinity because it may not even be in your house.
The changes you made should indeed improve the X10 signal level on your powerlines. The level may now be just above that of the noise source. You mentioned the behavior of your satellite reception when you turned on the lamps in your bedroom.
Oh, and get this: I also noticed that my satellite signal is pixelated when I turn the (x10) lights on in the bedroom. Turn the lights off - perfect picture!
Is your system operating properly now? The X10 switches themselves should not have done this unless one of the triac drivers were oscillating. If that were the case, it should still be happening (unless you replaced a switch).
Last year I tracked a similar intermittent noise problem down to a optical sensor in my post lamp. The output stage of the sensor would go into oscillation (intermittently) and drive my X10 devices nuts. Thankfully, it finally blew the breaker and I was able to put 2 and 2 together. I've since purchased a X10 powerline tester and have a lot more hair on my head to show for it. There is a site (can't remember the name) that offers a "loaner" ELK diagnostic unit to their patrons. You may want to consider this if your problems return.
The problem could also be outside your home. I have an audiophile friend at work who traced the noise in his high $ sound system to a compact florescent activated by an optical sensor (oscillating again). This was a porch lamp three houses down (same transformer).
Best of luck
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Do you have any repeaters, or transcievers?
My in-laws had a problem with the TV suddenly changing stations, and acting erractically. The only thing that changed was that their nieghbor just signed up for the same company they had. I changed their remote codes and the problem was solved. X-10 is a little more difficult to troubleshoot, but it is possible a rogue signal from your nieghbors is getting into your system.
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I had been watching this thread, but didn't have much more to contribute until now. I was working on the XTB-IIR code yesterday, and had the return signal gain set at max while checking the automatic threshold control loop. Then I turned on my noise generator - several compact fluorescent lights on an unfiltered circuit. The noise level at the comparator input was incredible - dancing around up to several volts. As the noise produced by each of the CFLs beats together, it produces peaks and valleys that can mimic X10 signals. The noise was above my threshold limit during this test, and the XTB-IIR was recognizing occasional X10 commands.
So I don't scare anyone off, this was just high-gain test of the automatic threshold circuit. The XTB-IIR would normally switch to a lower gain, pushing the noise down into the background. But I wanted to bring this up here to point out that CFLs can simulate unwanted X10 commands.
Jeff
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Jeff,
I know this is a bit off thread but...
...The noise level at the comparator input was incredible - dancing around up to several volts. As the noise produced by each of the CFLs beats together, it produces peaks and valleys that can mimic X10 signals.
This is just plain nasty. Not only do we need to worry about the chopper frequency of an individual CFL, but the beat frequencies between multiple units? This looks like it's a "new find" that's different from your CFL troubleshooting guide, correct?
- X10 & Compact Fluorescent Lights (http://jvde.us/x10/x10_cfls.htm) - 2007-02-24 @ 21:53:38
Feedback Thread: Re: Use of compact florescent bulbs (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=8642.msg67185#msg67185)
Sorry but I have a host of questions:
- Were the CFL's X10 friendly or "known offenders"?
- Can you tell us the make/model of the CFL's used as well as the quantity? Did you use multiple brands/models?
- Can a plug in filter reduce the beat frequency to tolerable levels?
- What is the typical chopper frequency for a CFL(sorry, I'm being a bit lazy here)?
- Why do individual frequencies vary so much that the "beat" winds up in the 120Khz range (or were these different manufacturers/models)?
Let me know if I'm reading this wrong, but this appears to be a new chapter in the "evils of CFL".
The Boiler
[TTA Edit: Added description to LINK; added FEEDBACK LINK; removed unnecessary {/LIST}{LIST} commands - just need one {LIST} and one {/LIST} per list. ;) ]
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Not only do we need to worry about the chopper frequency of an individual CFL, but the beat frequencies between multiple units? This looks like it's a "new find" that's different from your CFL troubleshooting guide, correct?
Actually, the photos in that tutorial were of the noise from those same bulbs. I believe those TCP ESN18 were cheap bulbs offered by our power company about 5 years ago. I can't comment whether others have identified them as known offenders, but they certainly are for me. This is an unfiltered non-X10 circuit. I'm sure a Leviton 6287 would significantly reduce the noise, but I have left them as is to use as a noise source for testing.
I don't think there is any "typical" chopper frequency. Higher frequency usually means smaller magnetics, so the frequencies are probably going up as manufacturers push the circuitry into smaller bases. These TCP bulbs have a much large base than the n:vision CFLs we bought at HomeDepot recently.
Ah, it isn't the beat frequency that winds up in the 120KHz region. That is the carrier (chopper frequency). The beat is in the 100Hz region so the noise sums together differently in successive X10 sample windows. A 1% mismatch in the frequency determining components would produce a beat frequency in that range.
No, this isn't a new chapter - just a closer look at what is going on in one particular installation. It explains how CFLs can cause X10 modules to apparently switch on or off by themselves.
FYI, after enabling the gain switch, and allowing the automatic threshold control to cover the full range, the XTB-IIR was able to recover a X10 signal just slightly stronger than the peak CFL noise without recognizing any false commands due to the noise. So it is possible that more advanced X10 modules will be able to deal with the CFL issue without us having to put filters everywhere.
Jeff
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I have some DuraBright Brand CFLs that make noise right on the X10 powerline frequency. They are made by TCP.
A EDXO-23 23 Watt and an ES42 42 Watt! Yup aroud the same as a 150 Watt Light for the second one.
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Ah, it isn't the beat frequency that winds up in the 120KHz region. That is the carrier (chopper frequency). The beat is in the 100Hz region so the noise sums together differently in successive X10 sample windows. A 1% mismatch in the frequency determining components would produce a beat frequency in that range.
Ok, I think I'm getting this. If we filter the chopper frequency (120K carrier) the beat frequency will be ignored by X10.
Thanks for the explanation.
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What someone needs to come up with is a screw in or drop in the socket solution that would go between the CFL bulb and the socket.
Is that possible? If not, how about CFL modules and switches with built in filtering.
Am I just wishing in dream land?
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What someone needs to come up with is a screw in or drop in the socket solution that would go between the CFL bulb and the socket.
Is that possible? If not, how about CFL modules and switches with built in filtering.
Given today's competitive CFL market, no manufacturer is going to spend a nickel on anything that isn't absolutely necessary. So don't look for any help from the CFL manufacturers except as a byproduct of their natural evolution.
If the lampcord is accessable inside the lamp, perhaps in the base, it is possible to insert an inductor in series, and double insulate with shrink sleeving. I have done that myself on several table lamps.
Many recommend running CFLs off appliance modules. I don't like the KLACK, and use regular lamp modules to turn them ON and OFF (no dimming). That has worked fine with all our CFLs for years. The inductor inside the lamp module that suppresses the triac switching transient may help filter the noise generated by the CFLs. Now that I think of it, I had to add those inductors back when I was using appliance modules...
Jeff
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Jeff - What does the inductor look like and how do you wire it ? Thanks in advance, and in behalf of all of us, we do appreciate the input and tips.
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Jeff - What does the inductor look like and how do you wire it?
Snipped directly from my CFL tutorial:
If you are handy, an inexpensive solution for many table lamps is to install a 1000uH Miller 5258-RC "Hash Choke" in series with the hot lead. Double insulate it with shrink sleeving. While the 1000uH inductor is rated 1 amp (100 watt bulb), I recommend the higher current 250uH 5254-RC if you will ever use a high-wattage incandescent bulb in that lamp. Electronic supply houses such as Digikey and Mouser carry the chokes and suitable shrink sleeving.
The chokes are about 1/2" diameter and 1 1/2" long. Just cut the "hot" lead (narrow plug prong), and solder it in series. Be sure to split the zip cord back far enough so that you can slip on shrink sleeving. A second layer over the entire cord gives a finished appearance if it is easy to free one of the cord ends. You will need 5/8" shrink sleeving.
Jeff
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azzar0,
I'm new to the site and was reading about your mysterious lights. I hate to be a naysayer, but I'm betting you still have a noise source in the vicinity. I say vicinity because it may not even be in your house.
The changes you made should indeed improve the X10 signal level on your powerlines. The level may now be just above that of the noise source. You mentioned the behavior of your satellite reception when you turned on the lamps in your bedroom.
Oh, and get this: I also noticed that my satellite signal is pixelated when I turn the (x10) lights on in the bedroom. Turn the lights off - perfect picture!
Is your system operating properly now? The X10 switches themselves should not have done this unless one of the triac drivers were oscillating. If that were the case, it should still be happening (unless you replaced a switch).
Last year I tracked a similar intermittent noise problem down to a optical sensor in my post lamp. The output stage of the sensor would go into oscillation (intermittently) and drive my X10 devices nuts. Thankfully, it finally blew the breaker and I was able to put 2 and 2 together. I've since purchased a X10 powerline tester and have a lot more hair on my head to show for it. There is a site (can't remember the name) that offers a "loaner" ELK diagnostic unit to their patrons. You may want to consider this if your problems return.
The problem could also be outside your home. I have an audiophile friend at work who traced the noise in his high $ sound system to a compact florescent activated by an optical sensor (oscillating again). This was a porch lamp three houses down (same transformer).
Best of luck
Thanks for the reply, Boiler and everyone else.
It is very possible that there is noise generated from an outside source. I haven't had major problems lately, but I still can't say that my system is 100% working. Sometimes lights that are scheduled to come on don't come on (miss the timer) or they don't turn off. It is random though, I haven't been able to detect a pattern. Once in a while lights turn off and then right back on, as if the system got overloaded or something and then reset itself.
I still have the satellite issue. When I turn on the floor lamp the satellite signal goes down (only on some of the transponders though, not all of them). This could also be because the floor lamp uses a halogen bulb?
I don't have any CFLs in the house, but I am pretty sure that some of my neighbors do. I was thinking of installing a PZZ01 at the power box to eliminate outside noise sources, but I need to hire an electrician to do that and it can get expensive. It would be good though because I could also eliminate the dryer coupler I am currently using.
I was also using a repeater (model SR731 I think) which I discontinued because I have a feeling it may have contributed to the lights on/off by themselves issue. I don't understand why though - if anything the commands should repeat (hence the name of the device???), in which case I should have never seen such behavior. If anyone can explain why would a repeater cause the problems I experienced and related in the beginning of this thread, I would love to hear it.
In any event, I am leaning more and more towards the PZZ01 idea. What do you think? Is this likely to eliminate the possibility of the issue to come back? Is there anything else I can do instead of or in addition to?
Thanks again!
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azzar0
Are the lights that come back ON after you turn them OFF, fluorescent?
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azzar0
Are the lights that come back ON after you turn them OFF, fluorescent?
Hi Dave W,
What happens is this:
(1) I turn the lights on (or a motion sensor triggers a macro that turns the lights on)
(2a) after a while the light turns itself off and comes right back on
OR
(2b) The light turns itself off
The amount of time between (1) and (2a) or (2b) varies, and a lot of times it doesn't happen at all. I did notice that the system is most likely to behave this way if there is a LOT of X10 traffic (motion sensors mostly).
This behavior is not reproduceable. I can't MAKE it do this, it just happens once in a while. I must say though, I haven't seen (2b) happen since I unplugged the repeater, I still experience (2a) once in a while though.
None of my lights are fluorescent, they are all incandescent (with the exception of a floor lamp that uses a halogen light bulb, which IS dimmable, however).
There was a time when certain lights (4 different unit codes) would turn themself off and stay off. They are also the main lights, so when they turned off everything was dark! Like I said, I haven't seen that happen since I took the repeater out.
Thanks,
Azzar0
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Are any of the lamps; with CFLs; on an appliance module? Some will turn back on from the CFLs electronics tickling the Local Control Circuit in an appliance module. I had to modify all of mine to disable the Local Controls so CFLs did not turn back on. If this is part of your setup. Let us know and we can point you to mods, that eliminate it.
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Are any of the lamps; with CFLs; on an appliance module? Some will turn back on from the CFLs electronics tickling the Local Control Circuit in an appliance module. I had to modify all of mine to disable the Local Controls so CFLs did not turn back on. If this is part of your setup. Let us know and we can point you to mods, that eliminate it.
Hi Brian H,
No, I don't have any CFLs in the house, and thus no appliance modules connected to any CFL lamps... I almost wish I did now, to find a cause :)
Thanks,
Azzar0.
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azzar0
I think Brian and I are driving down the same road of "Local Control" causing your problem. But local control problems ar enot limited to CFL's or appliance modules. Standard flourescent lights with any kind of starter circuit can trigger an appliance module or lamp module to turn back on after the module and light has been turned off. Even later versions of the "Super Socket" and X10 wall switch(s) retrigger (although for safety, I don't think they should) A "Socket Rocket will not.
Anywho, it sounds like you are familiar with local control so I will go back to sleep.
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azzar0,
I'm a bit confused with your configuration -
I don't have any CFLs in the house, but I am pretty sure that some of my neighbors do.
and
All my lights are fluorescent (with the exception of a floor lamp that uses a halogen light bulb, which IS dimmable, however).
- What type of fluorescents are you using?
- What type of switches/lamp modules are controlling the fluorescents?
- Is the Halogen bulb a 120V unit or a low voltage bulb with a transformer?
- Are you using a dimmable lamp module (model) with the halogen floor lamp?
- Are you using macro dim commands or absolute dim commands with the halogen lamp?
Sorry for all the questions, but I really am trying to help.
In my experience line noise (noise present on the powerline or generated from outside your house):
- 1) Can definitely prevent X10 commands from being received by your intended switches (from your CM15a or other transceivers)
- 2) Does not turn lights on and off - noise on the powerline can prevent the reception of a valid X10 command but I can't conceive of a way that it could "construct" a valid X10 command to turn a device on or off. The X10 protocol requires a start sequence followed by a valid house code and a unit code (or function code). A single command sequence covers 11 powerline cycles. After a three powerline cycle gap, the entire sequence is repeated. It is very difficult (not impossible) for a noise source to mimic this protocol.
- 3) A valid X10 command generated from your neighbors (not really noise) could conceivably be conducted through the transformer and activate X10 devices in your house. I would think this would be rare. Look for X10 transmissions that are not your own in the "other computers" tab. Note that these could be RF or powerline.
I really have very little experience with lamp and appliance modules (most of my installations are hardwired switches). I'll yield to Dave_W and and Brian_H on the issues of local control being fooled by a load type (fluorescent or CFL).
There was a time when certain lights (4 different unit codes) would turn themself off and stay off. They are also the main lights, so when they turned off everything was dark! Like I said, I haven't seen that happen since I took the repeater out.
I do have experience with macro's being receiving multiple triggers and producing the on-off-on activity that you describe. I have two CM15a interfaces - one from '06 and one from '04. The '06 model is far more robust - particularly when dealing with RF input. I can see specific differences in the activity monitor between these two units. The difference, as far as I can determine, is firmware not hardware. Comparing the two modules, there are very few hardware changes but the firmware was rolled from revision "E" to revision "M" inside two years. I'd be very interested in what date code unit you have.
Check your activity monitor - is the CM15a getting "confused" by the RF and re-triggering your macros?
In any event, I am leaning more and more towards the PZZ01 idea. What do you think? Is this likely to eliminate the possibility of the issue to come back? Is there anything else I can do instead of or in addition to?
From what I have read, the PZZ01 is a good device (Leviton makes a similar model). But it is not inexpensive and it should be installed by an electrician. Before making the leap try the following:
- Watch your activity monitor to determine whether macro's, transceived RF, or a power line transmission are turning your lights on and off.
- Determine if the macros are responding to RF or power line inputs. If RF, try disabling the input to see if the "unexplained activity" goes away.
- Try moving house codes to eliminate the possibility of conducted signals from your neighbors (find a "Free" area in the other computers tab).
- Disable any transceived RF inputs you are not using in the control panel
If I had to bet (and I'm not a betting man) I'd wager that you have macros being re-triggered by multiple RF inputs. Try eliminating the RF first and see if things "calm down". If they do not, then the X10 commands may indeed be external (in which case a blocking filter may be in order).
None of the above addresses the interference with your satellite reception. If the noise if on the power line I'm surprised that any of your system is functioning (A/V units typically have good filtering). If the noise is broadband or RF I can't really guide you to a source (If it affects both X10 and your satellite feed we're talking a wide range of frequencies).
In general your satellite reception sounds like a "noise problem" whereas you lighting on/off scenario sounds like improper commands (or local control). A ELK ESM1 could help tracking down the noise (only in the X10 frequency band) and would be less expensive than the PZZ01 + installation.
Let us know what you find -
The Boiler
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Hi Boiler,
- What type of fluorescents are you using?
I am using regular light bulbs, mostly Phillips bulbs ("natural light"??)
- What type of switches/lamp modules are controlling the fluorescents?
I have wall switches (WS467 and WS4777 for 3 ways), lamp modules (LM465) and appliance modules (AM486)
- Is the Halogen bulb a 120V unit or a low voltage bulb with a transformer?
This lamp is a 120V floor lamp, controlled by a wall switch (the outlet is controlled by the wall switch). I unplugged it a few times to see if it solves the problem but it didn't.
- Are you using a dimmable lamp module (model) with the halogen floor lamp?
Again, the lamp is controlled by the wall switch, which is dimmable (WS467)
- Are you using macro dim commands or absolute dim commands with the halogen lamp?
I am actually using no macros at all for this lamp. I rarely use RF to control the lamp also. It is mostly locally controlled. Lately I've been playing with BVC and turning it on and off that way, but the majority of the time it is locally controlled (I am now convinced that my wife is completely unable to use any kind of remotes, with the exception of the Logitech Harmony 880 which she loves).
Sorry for all the questions, but I really am trying to help.
No need to apologize - I appreciate your feedback and recommendations.
I do have experience with macro's being receiving multiple triggers and producing the on-off-on activity that you describe. I have two CM15a interfaces - one from '06 and one from '04. The '06 model is far more robust - particularly when dealing with RF input. I can see specific differences in the activity monitor between these two units. The difference, as far as I can determine, is firmware not hardware. Comparing the two modules, there are very few hardware changes but the firmware was rolled from revision "E" to revision "M" inside two years. I'd be very interested in what date code unit you have.
I know my unit is one of the first ones out there. Maybe it is time to invest in a new CM15A... How can I check the firmware revision? Is it written on the back of the box? It's been a while since I looked at the thing closely and I am at work now.
Check your activity monitor - is the CM15a getting "confused" by the RF and re-triggering your macros?
I thought that might be the case, but no - in fact I remember the activity monitor didn't show ANYTHING, as if it didn't even know that the lights turned off (and on rare occasions back on). According to the activity monitor I was crazy and nothing happened. Ask my family on the other hand, and they'll tell you otherwise (well... they'll probably agree that I'm crazy, but they also know the phenomenon I am talking about very well)
try the following:
- Watch your activity monitor to determine whether macro's, transceived RF, or a power line transmission are turning your lights on and off.
- Determine if the macros are responding to RF or power line inputs. If RF, try disabling the input to see if the "unexplained activity" goes away.
- Try moving house codes to eliminate the possibility of conducted signals from your neighbors (find a "Free" area in the other computers tab).
- Disable any transceived RF inputs you are not using in the control panel
I've been watching the Activity monitor, but it doesn't show the activity I am describing. I switched house codes, my neighbor does have X10 but I set it up for him and he's on house code "O". I am only transceiving the house codes I am using in CM15A, I don't have them all checked.
If I had to bet (and I'm not a betting man) I'd wager that you have macros being re-triggered by multiple RF inputs. Try eliminating the RF first and see if things "calm down". If they do not, then the X10 commands may indeed be external (in which case a blocking filter may be in order).
That sounds like what is happening, doesn't it? However, as I mentioned earlier, activity monitor contradicts that assessment - there is NO activity indicating RF input to cause this type of behavior.
Is there a way to upgrade the firmware of the CM15A? It would be kind of silly to buy a new box just for the upgraded firmware...
Also, is there a way to check a module for being problematic? Is it possible that one of the modules (be it a wall switch, a lamp module, or an appliance module) has gone bad and it's causing the system to act weird? How do I determine which one of the module is the cause?
Thanks again for all your help,
Azzar0
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azzar0,
You're quickly blowing me out of the water here (kidding).
Allow me to summarize (for my own benefit).
- You have no fluorescents (cfl or other).
- Your 120V halogen floor lamp is controlled through an outlet by a WS467.
- The remainder of your lights are incandescent controlled by dimming switches, lamp modules, and appliance modules.
- You are not running macros on the CM15a (timers??)
- You are rarely using RF remotes.
- You are using RF motion sensors, and at times the activity can be high.
Let me know if I've erred in the above...
Let's start with the Halogen lamp. The WS467 is a two wire device that is rated for a minimum of 40W incandescent load. The minimum rating is due to the fact the the switch needs to complete the circuit (through the load) to respond to X10 commands. It is possible that the resistance of your Halogen bulb is higher than a 40 watt equivalent incandescent and the switch is having problems receiving commands.
Aside from the Halogen lamp loading, it is generally not advisable to control an outlet with a dimmable X10 switch. You don't have control over what gets connected to the outlet (unless your household operates differently than mine). I another family member plugs in a vacuum cleaner or boom box bad things can happen.
Do you have any other outlets controlled by dimmable switches? Could other family members be plugging in devices?
In regard to the CM15a date and firmware codes - check out the following thread. There should be a date code on the back of the CM15a. The Firmware version is located inside on the micro-controller.
http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=12826.0
With my "old" (2004) CM15a I can overload the RF input and cause all types of problems. This happens regardless of whether the RF input is being transceived and often requires a "battery out reset" to correct. My new (2006) CM15a is far more robust. I have not been able to upset if with RF (to date - I'm still trying things). What confuses me is that you're not seeing anything in activity monitor.
It doesn't sound like the CM15a is doing much?? Could you afford to unplug it for a few days to see if your problems continue? If they do continue, it would point to an outside source.
(I am now convinced that my wife is completely unable to use any kind of remotes, with the exception of the Logitech Harmony 880 which she loves).
Thanks for the information - my wife is a tad bit Techno-phobic. Ladies I'm not dumping here, my father has similar difficulties (and he is/was an engineer).
- She uses the intercom to ask my 9 year old to operate the A/V system
- If one of the kids moves an Icon on her PC desktop, the computer is "broken"
- Uses the children to program her cell phone
- Really enjoys life when the X10 system does not operate as planned (at my expense)
- If she reads this, I'm toast.
I'll have to check out the Harmony - it could eliminate a lot of stress in the family.
The Boiler
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Allow me to summarize (for my own benefit).
- You have no fluorescents (cfl or other).
correct, no fluorescents whatsoever.
[li]Your 120V halogen floor lamp is controlled through an outlet by a WS467.[/li]
correct
[li]The remainder of your lights are incandescent controlled by dimming switches, lamp modules, and appliance modules.[/li]
again correct
[li]You are not running macros on the CM15a (timers??)[/li]
INCORRECT. I am running LOTS of macros and timers on the CM15A. What I meant is that no macros or RF control the one halogen lamp we were talking about. The rest of the house is on a schedule to do things... I have 'movie' macros, 'welcome home' macros, 'vacation' macros, etc, and a bunch a timers that either turn individual lights on / off or trigger macros.
I use remote controls too, when necessary, and lately I've been replacing remotes with BVC (voice command control)
[li]You are rarely using RF remotes.[/li]
Again, incorrect. I rarely use remotes to control the halogen lamp, which is simply because it is mostly my wife's lamp, she uses it when she applies make up, etc. Because she is a devoted anti-remote advocate (based on her action, not her conviction) she prefers to control that lamp (or any other for that matter) manually instead of using the remotes. Too bad my Harmony doesn't have X10 built-in, I may have convinced her to use it to control some of the lights then...
Because I have the system setup so that lights turn on and off automatically, I have the tendency to use the remotes less myself. But I do use them if I need to turn something on. I guess what I am trying to say is that remotes get used, but only by me :) I am confident that nobody else in the house is pushing remote buttons on / off to make the system behave the way it is.
[li]You are using RF motion sensors, and at times the activity can be high.[/li]
Correct
Let's start with the Halogen lamp. The WS467 is a two wire device that is rated for a minimum of 40W incandescent load. The minimum rating is due to the fact the the switch needs to complete the circuit (through the load) to respond to X10 commands. It is possible that the resistance of your Halogen bulb is higher than a 40 watt equivalent incandescent and the switch is having problems receiving commands.
Actually the lamp doesn't act weird in any way - it turns on and off everytime I command it to do so, I can dim / brighten without any problems. I really don't think this lamp is an issue; I also unplugged it for a few days, and I didn't notice any changes in the system.
Aside from the Halogen lamp loading, it is generally not advisable to control an outlet with a dimmable X10 switch. You don't have control over what gets connected to the outlet (unless your household operates differently than mine). I another family member plugs in a vacuum cleaner or boom box bad things can happen.
Agreed... But I will have to reffer again to my lovely wife ;) She NEEDS a visible, tangible control. Remote controls are abstract notions to her - they're used to control space ships and aliens, not lights :)
Do you have any other outlets controlled by dimmable switches? Could other family members be plugging in devices?
I have one other outlet controlled that way. I have an extension cord plugged in and 2 lamps (regular incandescent light bulbs) plugged in the cord. The bottom of the outlet, which is the only part controlled by X10, is taped. Nobody can unplug the extension cord. Even my wife knows not to mess with that outlet :)
With my "old" (2004) CM15a I can overload the RF input and cause all types of problems. This happens regardless of whether the RF input is being transceived and often requires a "battery out reset" to correct. My new (2006) CM15a is far more robust. I have not been able to upset if with RF (to date - I'm still trying things). What confuses me is that you're not seeing anything in activity monitor.
wow. I think you just convinced me to get a new one... How is the RF range on the newer model compared to the old one? I had to make a small mod to get better reception on my CM15A.
It doesn't sound like the CM15a is doing much?? Could you afford to unplug it for a few days to see if your problems continue? If they do continue, it would point to an outside source.
If I do that then my entire automation system will be down. The wife is already used to not touching light switches in the bathrooms and closets (before I automated them she only knew how to turn them ON, much like the kids - hence X10). If I take the system offline she'll think it's broken and I'll have lights on everywhere. Not to mention I won't be able to talk to 'James' (BVC), which is not a big deal in itself but he's the only one in the household that does what I ask him to :) Well, for the most part - I do have to repeat myself a couple of times and talk like I am trying to ask for directions in Pakistan (i.e. loud and the lips are puckered and the face is all tensed up, etc).
[li]She uses the intercom to ask my 9 year old to operate the A/V system[/li]
check
[li]If one of the kids moves an Icon on her PC desktop, the computer is "broken"[/li]
check
[li]Uses the children to program her cell phone[/li]
check check
[li]Really enjoys life when the X10 system does not operate as planned (at my expense)[/li]
check
[li]If she reads this, I'm toast.[/li]
Are you sure we're NOT talking about the same woman here??? :)
I'll have to check out the Harmony - it could eliminate a lot of stress in the family.
It will! Even my oldest daughter, who knows how to use the 5 - 9 remotes to control the AV system, prefers the Harmony! It does make life much easier. I've been using it for so long that whenever I have to do something that the remote doesn't (yet) know how to do seamlessly I am having difficulties trying to figure out which emote goes where and how to use it!
BUT I can't wait until BVC introduces IR functions and support for multiple voice profiles. Then I can train everyone in the family and a simple voice command will switch the TV on, put it on the "Satellite" input, turn the satellite receiver on, turn the audio receiver on and put IT on the satellite input, AND dim the lights if I wanted to :) OR I can say "Turn DVD on" and the system switches the TV to the DVD input, turn the DVD on, switch the audio receiver to the DVD input, open the DVD tray, and finally announce "Please insert DVD to start the movie. Enjoy!" Oh, and make sure annoying lights are turned off and only keep a couple on, but dimmed to an appropriate level :)
OK, I know I am daydreaming, but Bill, if you are reading this, and I KNOW YOU ARE ( :) ) let us know how is everything going and when we should expect a beta release of the new IR-enabled BVC :)
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...The wife is already used to not touching light switches in the bathrooms and closets (before I automated them she only knew how to turn them ON, much like the kids - hence X10)....
I can identify with that. Good luck! You're in the right place for advice.
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wow. I think you just convinced me to get a new one... How is the RF range on the newer model compared to the old one? I had to make a small mod to get better reception on my CM15A.
Actually, the RF range on both of my CM15a's is "OK". I have the unit (only install one at a time) in the basement on a dedicated outlet 6" from the breaker box. Either unit will reliably cover the basement, first floor, garage, and outside sensors. I do have some "dead zones" on the second floor - I use a RF repeater there for reliability.
If you are serious about a new unit - X10 is running another of their $49.99 sales with all of the add-on software (I'm not trying to be a salesman here).
I am still very interested in the date code/firmware version of your old CM15a (this is a pet project of mine).
The wife is already used to not touching light switches in the bathrooms and closets (before I automated them she only knew how to turn them ON, much like the kids - hence X10)
Sounds like we got into X10 for the same reasons. Prior to using X10 I'd come on a hot summer day to find the AC running and EVERY LIGHT IN THE HOUSE ON. This was in my previous house prior to the creation of CFL's. When I walked through the first floor I could feel the heat of the 75 watt cans (12) radiating through from the basement and THE CAT AND I WERE THE ONLY MAMMALS IN THE HOUSE!
Recently I've begun using 2-way switches in the hall closets and pantry. When the lights are activated it fires a CM15a macro that turns the lamp off after X time.
Are you sure we're NOT talking about the same woman here???
Possibly from the same gene pool. My wife does have a younger sister - Are you my bother-in-law??
It will! Even my oldest daughter, who knows how to use the 5 - 9 remotes to control the AV system, prefers the Harmony! It does make life much easier. I've been using it for so long that whenever I have to do something that the remote doesn't (yet) know how to do seamlessly I am having difficulties trying to figure out which emote goes where and how to use it!
Which model Harmony are you using? I recently burned the RF section out of two UR74a learning remotes (whole different story) and find myself in the market. A wife approved remote would keep my 9 year old from running the stairs to operate the A/V systems.
-
OK, I know I am daydreaming, but Bill, if you are reading this, and I KNOW YOU ARE ( :) ) let us know how is everything going and when we should expect a beta release of the new IR-enabled BVC :)
Of course I am (reading this)! ;D
All I can tell you at present is, now that BVC appears to be stable in it's new language, I have finally begun transplanting code a bit at a time (okay, technically a few lines at a time ;) ) from my IR test program into BVC. It is slow going and it's already giving me fits, but it has begun! ;D
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...Recently I've begun using 2-way switches in the hall closets and pantry. When the lights are activated it fires a CM15a macro that turns the lamp off after X time.
Obviously, you haven't read my FAQ ::) -
[TTA TIP] 1½-Way Status Reporting [Positive LOAD Feedback Loop!] (Read 4200 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9550.0)
;)
...I am still very interested in the date code/firmware version of your old CM15a (this is a pet project of mine).[/b]
How serious? Enough to MAINTAIN a 'Dedicated Database' (if someone were to set it up for you)? :-\
Unreleated-to-thread OPINION: These forums could use *MORE* DO'ers / Volunteers and *LESS* Whiners / Complainers... >:(
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Obviously, you haven't read my FAQ
au contraire! I have read your FAQ (I'm one of the 4200) and yes I think the use of the motion sensor dusk/dawn output as a lamp feedback is ingenious. I particularly like the dim feature to warn the occupants that "time is expiring". I've disabled most of the light sensors on my motion detectors to free up the address (and cut down on the RF). I'm rethinking this in a couple of locations where it would be nice to have a ON/OFF confirmation.
My 2-way switches are Insteon that are operating in X10 mode (I'm not familiar with the X10 2-Ways other than the PR511). These switches broadcast their on/off status when activated (no need to poll - doesn't work with Smarthome products). I chose this method so that I wouldn't have to add a motion detector in a small closet (I have to admit, I never thought about the dusk/dawn output).
How serious? Enough to MAINTAIN a 'Dedicated Database' (if someone were to set it up for you)?
Absolutely. Thank you "someone" for offering.
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azzar0,
*PLEASE* (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/6/66/200px-Stop_sign_MUTCD.svg.png) confusing the "Old Geezers"! :o
We only have a limited number available and if you put them into an "Endless Loop", they'll OVERHEAT and BURN OUT on us! :'(
- 1.)
...I don't have any CFLs in the house, but I am pretty sure that some of my neighbors do...
- 2.)
...Are the lights that come back ON after you turn them OFF, fluorescent?
- 3.)
...All my lights are fluorescent (with the exception of a floor lamp that uses a halogen light bulb, which IS dimmable, however)...
- 4.)
Are any of the lamps; with CFLs; on an appliance module?
Please see #1.
- 5.)
I'm a bit confused with your configuration -
...All my lights are fluorescent (with the exception of a floor lamp that uses a halogen light bulb, which IS dimmable, however)...
- What type of fluorescents are you using?
- 6.)
Hi Boiler,
- What type of fluorescents are you using?
I am using regular light bulbs, mostly Phillips bulbs ("natural light"??)
- 7.)
azzar0,
You're quickly blowing me out of the water here (kidding).
Allow me to summarize (for my own benefit).
- You have no fluorescents (cfl or other).
- 8.)
Allow me to summarize (for my own benefit).
- You have no fluorescents (cfl or other).
correct, no fluorescents whatsoever.
Please see #3.
(In the voice of the Verizon television commercial Cellphone Geek): Can everyone follow this thread now? :D
P.S. to steven r:
Yep, it took a LONG time, especially since I'm on my P266 laptop. Not thinking ahead :-[, once I reached the point of having opened several posts, the SWAP FILE came into play (96MB RAM, Win98SE) and the DISK TRASHING took forever - but, at that point I was already committed to finishing it (yeah, I know -> I SHUD BE *COMMITTED*! ;D).
Came out purdy though, huh? :P
P.S. to Boiler:
After all that, I think I'm going to start calling you "Slow Simmer" - cause you DEFINITELY ain't no "Boiler "! ;D :D ;D :D
P.P.S. to Everyone:
Using the FORUM-CREATED QUOTE in your replies actually creates a LINK (with the author's ID and a Time/Date Stamp) to the original post. Using just the parameter "QUOTE" is like using the parameter "CODE" - all it does is create a BOX for the text.
No Author; No Time/Date Stamp; No LINK...
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TTA,
I apologize - I can see why the thread is confusing.
What I meant to say in your quoted #5 post is that I don't have fluorescent lights (such as neons, CFLs, etc). I only have incandescent lights (with filaments) and one halogen lamp, also with filament.
Sorry about the confusion - I was too quick to type.
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Azzar0,
I don't believe the TTA is suggesting that you abandon this thread. This is your thread and it's in all of our interest to see this to it's logical conclusion.
I am NOT whining, nor am I complaining. I am SIMPLY TRYING TO FIND ANSWERS to real problems that I am experiencing.
No you are not - and we appreciate that. What we are trying to get to is the "facts" of the situation. Unfortunately, at one point you stated that you only had fluorescents in your house. I'm sure this was a simple mistake, but it sent the CM's (and myself) down the wrong path. That's OK, it happens all the time. What I would ask is that, when this happens, go back and edit the incorrect information in the post. This saves a lot of time on the part of the people trying to help and makes the thread as a whole far more usable to others.
TTA has the thankless job of going through the threads and cleaning them up so they can be useful to other forum members (he's cleaned up a quite a few of my posts). I may be an old geezer, but I just learned how to insert a "linked" quote (thanks TTA - remember I'm old and slow). I think his comments should be taken as a gentle chiding rather than a suggestion to terminate the thread.
Please continue to update us on your progress. You have some interesting things going on and I am learning as well.
I'll have to get back to you on the Insteon switches and controllers. I was in the process of packing the car when I saw your post. I have someone glaring at me at the moment. It'll be a few days.
The Boiler
Almost forgot - I ordered one of the X10 package deals as well. I didn't have the security package and I'm curious if the newer CM15a's have firmware revisions to accommodate it.
-
Unfortunately, at one point you stated that you only had fluorescents in your house. I'm sure this was a simple mistake, but it sent the CM's (and myself) down the wrong path. That's OK, it happens all the time. What I would ask is that, when this happens, go back and edit the incorrect information in the post. This saves a lot of time on the part of the people trying to help and makes the thread as a whole far more usable to others.
You're right - it was an overlooked mistake. I went back and fixed that erroneous post. I forget I can do that...
Almost forgot - I ordered one of the X10 package deals as well. I didn't have the security package and I'm curious if the newer CM15a's have firmware revisions to accommodate it.
Be careful with that, some say that OnAlert causes issues with your conditional macros. I am not sure if OnAlert is the culprit, but if you want to send emails you have to use the work-around to get it working( see this post: http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=11233.0)
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azzar0,
Thank you for correcting the mistake in the previous post and for the TIP on the OnAlert package. Looks like this old dog will have to learn some new tricks again.
Please keep us posted on your progress.
The Boiler