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🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: BSarte on June 30, 2007, 06:48:27 AM

Title: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on June 30, 2007, 06:48:27 AM
I have had an installation at my home for over 8 years. One of the things I control is outdoor lights with many LM465's across several legs/phases of power lines. I have a phase coupler installed and these have worked very nicely for several years.

Recently one circuit (from the breaker box) which has three separate LM465's on it (two on one code and 1 for another) stopped going on via the timed schedule via the CM11A. When I use the handheld remote, they do go on just fine. They do go off via the scheduled time via the CM11A.

Other LM465's on other circuits receive the exact same "ON" code and turn on the other outdoor lights.

Can't firgure out what would keep this particular circuit from keeping "ON" codes to be not received by these 3 LM465's but allow it to receive "OFF" codes just fine?

Any one have any idea's?

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Brian H on June 30, 2007, 07:22:27 AM
Are there any new things added to the home, even something like a new cell phone charger. Anything that could effect powerline signals?
Also you may want to try the transceiver used for the remotes in the exact outlet the CM11A is in as a test.
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on June 30, 2007, 09:57:06 PM
Have you tried re-downloading to the CM11?

It is possible it "forgot" part of the MACRO.
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on July 22, 2007, 06:59:12 AM
Are there any new things added to the home, even something like a new cell phone charger. Anything that could effect powerline signals?
Also you may want to try the transceiver used for the remotes in the exact outlet the CM11A is in as a test.

Couple of new things, but why would it only affect the "on" codes and not the "off" codes to that particular electrical circuit as well as different codes sent at different times (i.e. code A-7 & A-15 sent at dusk to turn on two different LM465's on that circuit which neither get, but they do get the "off" code sent at 11 pm and other LM465's on different electrical circuits with A7 get that signal to turn on)?

That is what has me puzzled!
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on July 22, 2007, 07:01:24 AM
Have you tried re-downloading to the CM11?

It is possible it "forgot" part of the MACRO.


Yes, tried "re-loading" the CM11A twice now.

I just tried moving the CM11A to a different locatio in the house and let's see what happens today!

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on July 22, 2007, 03:20:53 PM
...Recently one circuit (from the breaker box) which has three separate LM465's on it (two on one code and 1 for another) stopped going on via the timed schedule via the CM11A. When I use the handheld remote, they do go on just fine. They do go off via the scheduled time via the CM11A.

Other LM465's on other circuits receive the exact same "ON" code and turn on the other outdoor lights.

Can't firgure out what would keep this particular circuit from keeping "ON" codes to be not received by these 3 LM465's but allow it to receive "OFF" codes just fine?

I believe Brian hit the nail on the head - you have increased signal loading between your CM11a and your problem devices.  Your hand held remote works because your transceiver (RR501, TM751) has a higher output level (although the CM11a is no slouch) or better path to this circuit.  To test this, you could try plugging your CM11a into the transceiver location.

As far as the units not responding to an ON command - is it possible that you have more active devices on the line at dusk (on command) than are present at 11 pm (off command). 

It is also possible that your X10 command is being "morphed" by the time it reaches your LM465's.  At one time I had an installation with a RR501 transceiver on one phase and my son's bedroom switch (address A6) on another.  I had a motion sensor set to trigger the hall lights on (address A8) delay for a minute and then turn them off.  When the A8 off command was sent it would wrap through my active phase coupler and "morph" into a A6 off command (turned my sons bedroom lamp off).  This occurred virtually every time the A8 off command was sent over a period of days.  I installed a Smarthome Boosterlinc to rectify the problem.

Before adding hardware to "fix" your system try the following:

Depending on the size of your installation, your options include:

The correct answer will depend on your home size, number of installed loads (tv's, computers, other), and whether you plan on expanding your X10 system in the future. 

I installed the boosterlinc to correct the loading problem on one of my lines - loading was due to a number of X10 2-way devices that couldn't be filtered.  Knowing what I do today, I would probably have opted for JeffVolp's XTB-II instead.

Almost forgot - any compact fluorescents installed recently?
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on July 28, 2007, 07:04:21 AM
I believe Brian hit the nail on the head - you have increased signal loading between your CM11a and your problem devices.  Your hand held remote works because your transceiver (RR501, TM751) has a higher output level (although the CM11a is no slouch) or better path to this circuit.  To test this, you could try plugging your CM11a into the transceiver location.

As far as the units not responding to an ON command - is it possible that you have more active devices on the line at dusk (on command) than are present at 11 pm (off command). 

It is also possible that your X10 command is being "morphed" by the time it reaches your LM465's.  At one time I had an installation with a RR501 transceiver on one phase and my son's bedroom switch (address A6) on another.  I had a motion sensor set to trigger the hall lights on (address A8) delay for a minute and then turn them off.  When the A8 off command was sent it would wrap through my active phase coupler and "morph" into a A6 off command (turned my sons bedroom lamp off).  This occurred virtually every time the A8 off command was sent over a period of days.  I installed a Smarthome Boosterlinc to rectify the problem.

Before adding hardware to "fix" your system try the following:
  • Try shutting off breakers to determine where signal absorbers or noise generators are located - these can be filtered
  • Try to determine what devices you have on the same branch as your LM465's - unplug any suspects (stereo, computer, TV) to troubleshoot
  • Determine whether your CM11a is on the same phase as your problem units - try moving the CM11a around to see if you can correct the problem.

Depending on the size of your installation, your options include:
  • Problem unit filtering
  • Active coupler
  • Repeater

The correct answer will depend on your home size, number of installed loads (tv's, computers, other), and whether you plan on expanding your X10 system in the future. 

I installed the boosterlinc to correct the loading problem on one of my lines - loading was due to a number of X10 2-way devices that couldn't be filtered.  Knowing what I do today, I would probably have opted for JeffVolp's XTB-II instead.

Almost forgot - any compact fluorescents installed recently?


Thanks for the extensive reply. I really appreciate it. But all of these still have not helped.

Some clarifying points:

The "on" signal that is lost is not just at one time. Let me explain a little deeper:

- the signals being lost are transmitted to several LM465's via two physical copper lines. I have two separate 20 amp circuit breakers in the main panel next to one another which each of these are therefore running on separate phases of the power but run to a an outdoor underground watertight box and lets call them circuits A and circuit B.

- on circuit A there are three distinctly different LM465's with separate device codes:

  - code 14 for a pond pump which has an "on" code sent at 6 am and an off code sent at 6 pm. The "on"
    code is not received, but the "off" code is.

  - code 15 for a flag pole light which has an "on" code sent at dusk and an "off code sent at 11 pm. The "on"
    code is not received, but the "off" code is.

  - code 04 for some other lights that have no regular schedule signals sent.

- on circuit B there is one LM465:
   
  - code 7 for driveway low voltage lights which are sent an "on" code at dusk and an "off" code at 11 pm.
    There are 5 other LM465's around the house that have this same code and function fine, only this one
    particular LM465 does not receive the "on" code does receive the "off" code.


This is what I don't understand, How can all of these be loosing the "on" code being sent at differing times of the day, but receive "off" codes which overlap with about the same time as "on" codes that are being lost and on differing circuits?

I have:

1. swapped the two circuits breakers.
2. moved the CM11A to an outlet just adjacent to the RR501.
3. reloaded the CM11A several times.

I would point at the CM11A as going bad but the signal 07 is received by several other LM465's around the house and some at a much farther physical distance than the one that it is being lost on.

Could that particular copper cable have an issue that is causing the signals to MORPH?

If that is the issue, not sure how to fix it.

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on July 28, 2007, 10:20:13 AM
Bruce,

Thank you for the concise description.  Thank you also for answering my (and others) questions.  This really helps the troubleshooting process.


The "on" signal that is lost is not just at one time. Let me explain a little deeper:

- the signals being lost are transmitted to several LM465's via two physical copper lines. I have two separate 20 amp circuit breakers in the main panel next to one another which each of these are therefore running on separate phases of the power but run to a an outdoor underground watertight box and lets call them circuits A and circuit B.

- on circuit A there are three distinctly different LM465's with separate device codes:

  - code 14 for a pond pump which has an "on" code sent at 6 am and an off code sent at 6 pm. The "on"
    code is not received, but the "off" code is.

  - code 15 for a flag pole light which has an "on" code sent at dusk and an "off code sent at 11 pm. The "on"
    code is not received, but the "off" code is.

  - code 04 for some other lights that have no regular schedule signals sent.

- on circuit B there is one LM465:
   
  - code 7 for driveway low voltage lights which are sent an "on" code at dusk and an "off" code at 11 pm.
    There are 5 other LM465's around the house that have this same code and function fine, only this one
    particular LM465 does not receive the "on" code does receive the "off" code.


A number of thoughts:
What I'm trying to determine here is whether you have a signal collision problem or a noise problem.  If the CM11a can manually drive the ON command just after a timed ON failure your problem may be a timer or signal collision.  You're using Dusk/Dawn timer commands which move around during the year.  I don't know how the CM11a handles a timed dusk command (say 9:20 PM) when there is a fixed timer set to the same time.  I realize that your code 14 pond pump should not be experiencing this problem.

If the CM11a can't drive the ON command, you may have a noisemaker activated somewhere in your system (at that time).  I'm assuming that your listing above isn't all inclusive (you have other devices and timers active).  You'll need to determine what all devices are active at that particular time and try to isolate them.


- on circuit B there is one LM465:
   
  - code 7 for driveway low voltage lights which are sent an "on" code at dusk and an "off" code at 11 pm.
    There are 5 other LM465's around the house that have this same code and function fine, only this one
    particular LM465 does not receive the "on" code does receive the "off" code.


This really sounds like a loading/noise problem. 
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2007, 11:00:29 AM
One thing that jumps out at me is the run length.  X10 signals decrease in amplitude as they propagate away from the transmitter.  If those are long runs compared with the runs in your house, you might have marginal signal levels.  If so, only minor changes in electrical loading at that point can determine whether a signal will be recognized at all.

Since you already have a phase coupler, and the problems occur on both phases, you may just need stronger signals.

It would be helpful to check signal levels with something like an ESM1.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Brian H on July 28, 2007, 11:38:53 AM
OK circuit A 14 Pond. Is this a standard light; low voltage light  or a pump motor?
Circuit B 7 Low Voltage Lights?
LM465 Lamp Modules are not made for low voltage lights or motors. So if the circuit A 14 is a pool pump or a low voltage light and circuit B 7 is an indicative transformer running the  low voltage light. This can cause all kinds of weird stuff.
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2007, 12:36:16 PM
That is an interesting point on the compatibility of the lamp module and inductive loads.  I have been using a lamp module to control our hot water recirculation pump for several years with absolutely no problems.  It cycles on and off about 65 times a day.

I doubt that the lamp module uses a 4-quadrent triac, so how well it deals with inductive loads depends on the phase relationship between the voltage and current.  It may indeed have trouble turning on a highly inductive load.  (Don't try to "dim" an inductive load.)

Lamp modules also work fine with our CFLs as long as they are just switched on/off.  This may be an issue regarding the newer lamp modules that have the ramp on/off unless they are used with dimmable CFLs.  And they certainly wouldn't work with inductive loads.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Brian H on July 28, 2007, 04:41:01 PM
Yes my soft start Insteon Lamp Modules and CFLs are a big NO NO. Guess the new soft start LM465s may also need to be tested.
Thanks for the feedback on your pump Jeff. So to be safe a motor isn't reccommended but may work. Your milage may vary.
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on July 29, 2007, 07:21:39 AM
OK, I'll try to reply to all of you in one post with my responses BOLDED under each of your comments but not sure it will come out correctly:

Quoting Boiler-

A number of thoughts:
Your system has problems executing timed ON events, but responds correctly when you follow up with the RR501.  The RR501 may have a higher output level than the CM11a.  When your timed ON fails, try turning the modules on within ActiveHome (use the CM11a rather than the RR501).

Tried in the past to get the CM11A to control devices directly when connected to PC via Active Home but never been successful, will try it again!

Use Activity Monitor (I think AH has one) to determine what Is happening during your timed ON commands.  Is there unexplained activity or a high level of activity at this time?

Trying to not spend any $$ on this. This is why I am posting here to keep from getting any more "specialized" tools!

What I'm trying to determine here is whether you have a signal collision problem or a noise problem.  If the CM11a can manually drive the ON command just after a timed ON failure your problem may be a timer or signal collision.  You're using Dusk/Dawn timer commands which move around during the year.  I don't know how the CM11a handles a timed dusk command (say 9:20 PM) when there is a fixed timer set to the same time.  I realize that your code 14 pond pump should not be experiencing this problem.

If the CM11a can't drive the ON command, you may have a noisemaker activated somewhere in your system (at that time).  I'm assuming that your listing above isn't all inclusive (you have other devices and timers active).  You'll need to determine what all devices are active at that particular time and try to isolate them.

The CM11A can drive the "on" command but not to that particluar LM465. I am starting to think this is a "noise" issue but still just can not firgure out why it affecting only the "on" commands from the CM11A.



Quoting JeffVolp -

One thing that jumps out at me is the run length.  X10 signals decrease in amplitude as they propagate away from the transmitter.  If those are long runs compared with the runs in your house, you might have marginal signal levels.  If so, only minor changes in electrical loading at that point can determine whether a signal will be recognized at all.

One of the other LM465's controlling the same code (07) is at a much longer distance from the circuit panel at about 250', but these two circuits that have the underground box is about 125' from the circuit panel, so I don't think it is a distance issue!


Quoting Brian H -

LM465 Lamp Modules are not made for low voltage lights or motors. So if the circuit A 14 is a pool pump or a low voltage light and circuit B 7 is an indicative transformer running the  low voltage light. This can cause all kinds of weird stuff.

ALL of the LM465's (6 different ones) running code 07 have low voltage lighting transformers plugged into them and have been working fine for over 6 years. I have had problems with fluorscent lighting but never any transformers.[/b}



I think it is time to dig up the underground box, clean up the contact's (probably do the same in the circuit panel), put some new LM465's in it, and see what happens!

Won't be this weekend, but hopefully next weekend or maybe some day during the week. I'll check in later to see if there are any new posts/ideas , but will post theresult of my cleanup after I get it done.

Thanks guys for your input. Like my brother-in-law says......GOTTA LUV IT!


Bruce
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Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on July 29, 2007, 08:52:50 AM

Use Activity Monitor (I think AH has one) to determine what Is happening during your timed ON commands.  Is there unexplained activity or a high level of activity at this time?

Trying to not spend any $$ on this. This is why I am posting here to keep from getting any more "specialized" tools!

Actually, I was referring to the Activity monitor that I believe is built into the Active Home Software (time based listing of all the commands, macros, RF seen by the CM11a).  The Active Home Pro/CM15a software has this feature.  I thought I remembered the Active Home/CM11a having it as well.  Please correct me if I'm wrong CM11a users.

I think it is time to dig up the underground box, clean up the contact's (probably do the same in the circuit panel), put some new LM465's in it, and see what happens!

Won't be this weekend, but hopefully next weekend or maybe some day during the week. I'll check in later to see if there are any new posts/ideas , but will post theresult of my cleanup after I get it done.

Thanks guys for your input. Like my brother-in-law says......GOTTA LUV IT!

Not a bad place to start.  Try to take it a step at a time to you can evaluate your changes.

Good attitude - GOTTA keep laughing.  Keep us posted as things progress.
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Brian H on July 29, 2007, 09:03:34 AM
Glad the LM465s work with your transformers. They don't always work correctly.
Wonder if anyone has tried the new Soft Start versions yet with transformers?
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on July 29, 2007, 09:57:43 AM
Quote
Glad the LM465s work with your transformers. They don't always work correctly.
Wonder if anyone has tried the new Soft Start versions yet with transformers?
 
Solid State relays usually have triacs that switch on and off at the zero crossing.  These are often used with transformers and motors, and work fine as long as the full AC waveform is applied to the load.  The problem is how standard triacs respond to a load whose current and voltage are out of phase, as happens with inductive loads.  Unless special circuitry is used to guarantee switching at the zero crossing, the triac may switch at other points in the waveform.  This can cause a DC imbalance that may saturate an inductor, and cause excessive current flow.

I would not attempt to drive an inductive load with a module that doesn't just switch on/off.  It is possible that either the module or load may be damaged by excessive current flow.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on July 29, 2007, 10:06:45 AM
Quote
One of the other LM465's controlling the same code (07) is at a much longer distance from the circuit panel at about 250', but these two circuits that have the underground box is about 125' from the circuit panel, so I don't think it is a distance issue!

Actually, that is a pretty long run for X10.  Signals in a house can decay to marginal levels with similar total wire runs.  Most X10 problems are caused by signal issues.  It would be worth checking the signal level with something like an Elk ESM1 to verify adequate signal strength.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: robster on July 29, 2007, 01:17:31 PM
I'm not a trained electrical guy, but here's what I found when using X10 to control outdoor things like pumps and (especially) low-voltage transformers.  I put an X10 filter in between the X10 switch (like an AM466) and the transformer or pump.  Physically, the layout is like this: electric outlet > X10 unit (AM466) > X10 filter > transformer.  Note that if you were to put the filter in front of the X10 switch the filter will block the signal!  :P

Once I did this on all my devices, problems cleared up.  I also aggressively use the X10 filters on all TVs, computers (yes, laptops too), cable boxes and routers.  This definitely has helped with the range of getting signals to all of my X10 stuff.  Check my other posts, as I also did the range extension on my CM15A.  I buy the strongest X10 signal filters and put them in front of power strips so I can filter two or three devices with one filter.  As someone mentioned earlier, use an ESM tester to check signal strength and identify sources of "noise" or "signal sinks."

Definitely has made my system bullet-proof and elevated the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).

Good luck!    robster     ;)
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on July 31, 2007, 05:11:20 AM
I'm not a trained electrical guy, but here's what I found when using X10 to control outdoor things like pumps and (especially) low-voltage transformers.  I put an X10 filter in between the X10 switch (like an AM466) and the transformer or pump.  Physically, the layout is like this: electric outlet > X10 unit (AM466) > X10 filter > transformer.  Note that if you were to put the filter in front of the X10 switch the filter will block the signal!  :P

Once I did this on all my devices, problems cleared up.  I also aggressively use the X10 filters on all TVs, computers (yes, laptops too), cable boxes and routers.  This definitely has helped with the range of getting signals to all of my X10 stuff.  Check my other posts, as I also did the range extension on my CM15A.  I buy the strongest X10 signal filters and put them in front of power strips so I can filter two or three devices with one filter.  As someone mentioned earlier, use an ESM tester to check signal strength and identify sources of "noise" or "signal sinks."

Definitely has made my system bullet-proof and elevated the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).

Good luck!    robster     ;)

Robster,

Thanks for the reply. First of all, I want to elevate the WAF all the time!

Can you help with some further clarifcation on some points:

What X10 filters do you use? Manfacturer? Model? Cost?

What ESM do you use? Manfacturer? Maodel? Cost?

Spending more $$ on those will lower the WAF!

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Brian H on July 31, 2007, 06:56:35 AM
ELK ESM-1 is the signal tester. I have one and it is a big help. I also have a Smarthome TesterLinc that also gives a readout of the signal quality and exact message received.

Filters depend on their current rating. X10 and X10 Pros are 5 Amps. Smarthome makes a 5 and 10 amp version and ACT makes a 15 Amp one for heaver needs.
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: robster on August 01, 2007, 06:24:02 AM
As noted above, ELK ESM1, under $100, is the signal tester.  I'll have to check for names on the filters, or you could do a site search here.  They're around $25 each if I remember correctly.  I found a guy who did a deal if I bought half a dozen.  Finally, definitely do the range extension mod as that had the biggest impact of all for me.

If you take the time to methodically eliminate X10 signal suckers/noise and get the range for signals, the X10 stuff works very well. 

Good luck!     robster
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 03, 2007, 05:23:42 PM
As noted above, ELK ESM1, under $100, is the signal tester.  I'll have to check for names on the filters, or you could do a site search here.  They're around $25 each if I remember correctly.  I found a guy who did a deal if I bought half a dozen.  Finally, definitely do the range extension mod as that had the biggest impact of all for me.

If you take the time to methodically eliminate X10 signal suckers/noise and get the range for signals, the X10 stuff works very well. 

Good luck!     robster

Robster,

Yes, the X10 concept works very well but just some of the X10 manufactured modules breakdown too much. I have replaced WS467's with Leviton manufactured modules that just work and don't fail!

I got the impression that the suggested way to use each of these filters is one between the outlet and the X10 device/module?

This would cost a small fortune as far as I am concerned! I would need about 20 filters.

Anyway....my post this time is to ask about the CM11A's. Anyway you can boost the signal from one? Are there different brand or model CM11A' that have a stronge signal?

I going to do the under ground box this weekend and I'll post my results afterwards! Hope it is that simple!

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 03, 2007, 07:56:14 PM
...I got the impression that the suggested way to use each of these filters is one between the outlet and the X10 device/module?

This would cost a small fortune as far as I am concerned! I would need about 20 filters.

Anyway....my post this time is to ask about the CM11A's. Anyway you can boost the signal from one? Are there different brand or model CM11A' that have a stronger signal?

The filter is installed between an "unfriendly" device and the power source.  Here are a couple of examples:

          AC  ---->  Filter ---->  Computer or UPS

          AC  ---->  X10 module  ---->  Filter  ---->  Compact Fluorescent Lamp

The 5 amp XPPF filter is available on eBay for under $10 including shipping.

Many people are using the XTB (Powerline Control Reliability (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?board=102.0)) to boost the output of their CM11A.

Jeff


[TTA Edit: Added the omitted 2nd filter; highlighted the AC and the filters for visual impact; added LINK to XTB Forum for more info; bumped font SIZE of QUOTE for "Old-Timers" readability.]
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 06, 2007, 11:36:13 AM
Update from weekend work:

- Dug up the underground box and everything looked good, in fact better than I anticipated. All contacts for AC power outlet, X10's, and trnasformers were in very good shape.

- Changed the Home Control settings somewhat so that commands were not overlapping. Previously I had the unit code 7 & 15 going on at dusk +30 minutes and going off at 11:00 pm. Now unit code 7 going on at dusk + 30 minutes and unit code 15 going on at dusk +45 minutes. Both still going off at 11:00 pm. Unit code 14 was going on at 6:00 a.m. and going off at 6:00 p.m., no change.

Well, unfortunately, nothing got any better. All three units codes (7, 14, & 15) do not respond to "on" codes but do respond to "off" codes.   >:(

Last night I sent commands from Home Control through thre CM11a and they work just fine as do the commands from the handheld remote.

Not quite sure where to go from here, but first thing is to buy a NEW CM11A and install that, hopefully the problem is with the one I have and that will fix the problem.

Any suggeestions?

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on August 06, 2007, 12:04:44 PM
...Well, unfortunately, nothing got any better. All three units codes (7, 14, & 15) do not respond to "on" codes but do respond to "off" codes.
Last night I sent commands from Home Control through thre CM11a and they work just fine as do the commands from the handheld remote...

I'm assuming you send the CM11a commands at ~ the same time that your timer would have sent them.  You basically established that the CM11a can drive the "ON" commands manually.

Are you using a "Macro" to initiate the commands or a "timer" function?  If you're using a macro, try inserting delays (2 sec) between the on commands.

On your very first post you mentioned a phase coupler - could you post the model (active/passive)?

As far as suggestions are concerned: If you are dead set on replacing the CM11a, you could try purchasing at AutomatedOutlet.  This should allow you to get one of their "Loaner" ELK-ESM1 units for troubleshooting.  I don't know how their prices compare with others nor have I made use of the "loaner".  Just a thought.

Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 11, 2007, 07:33:23 AM
...Well, unfortunately, nothing got any better. All three units codes (7, 14, & 15) do not respond to "on" codes but do respond to "off" codes.
Last night I sent commands from Home Control through thre CM11a and they work just fine as do the commands from the handheld remote...

I'm assuming you send the CM11a commands at ~ the same time that your timer would have sent them.  You basically established that the CM11a can drive the "ON" commands manually.

Are you using a "Macro" to initiate the commands or a "timer" function?  If you're using a macro, try inserting delays (2 sec) between the on commands.

On your very first post you mentioned a phase coupler - could you post the model (active/passive)?

As far as suggestions are concerned: If you are dead set on replacing the CM11a, you could try purchasing at AutomatedOutlet.  This should allow you to get one of their "Loaner" ELK-ESM1 units for troubleshooting.  I don't know how their prices compare with others nor have I made use of the "loaner".  Just a thought.



I got home from a trip late Thursday night and the new CM11A was here. Installed it yesterday, downloaded the programs to it and worked the same as the old one. No changes. All three unit codes on that particular leg of the electrical circuit do not respond to "on" commands from the CM11A but do respond to "off" commands.

Guess I'll have to get a tester!  >:(

To answer some of your questions:

- all automated commands coming from the CM11A are "timed' functions, not macros. As of last week, the timed commands are staggered slightly (by 10-15 minutes) so that they do not "collide" and possibly confuse the X10 module(s).

- not sure what the phase coupler is, passsive or active. Been a few years since I installed it so I'll have to pull the circuit panel cover off to check. Why would either active or passive have any issue with this situation?  ???

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 11, 2007, 08:01:27 AM
2nd thought today as I am getting my head back together after a week from "H$%LL".

Why should I get a tester when I can transmit the "on" commands to the X10 modules manually through the CM11A from Active Home and they work just fine? Does that not prove that the CM11A "on" commands can be seen just fine? What is the difference between the manually sent commands and the automated ones? Should be no difference.

I have 4 X10 modules with the same unit code, 07, placed in different locations around the house. Only one on that particular electrical circuit does not get the "on" commands. What is different about "on" commands from "off" commands since this same module receives the automated/programmed "on" command and does not respond to the "on" command? Why would the module respond to the "on" command executed from Acitve Home through the CM11A and not the progammed one?

Got me confused on this one!

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: steven r on August 11, 2007, 08:35:21 AM
...Many people are using the XTB (Powerline Control Reliability (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?board=102.0)) to boost the output of their CM11A....
I'm one of those "many people" that highly recommend it.
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 11, 2007, 10:06:38 AM
Quote
Why would the module respond to the "on" command executed from Active Home through the CM11A and not the programmed one?

Things that do not make sense are often the result of marginal signal levels.  The devices that are ON in your house may be different when the automatic command fails.  In particular, some compact fluorescent lights are known to interfere with X10 transmission.  Other electrical devices may be noise sources or "signal suckers".

If you eliminate noise sources, and ensure adequate signal levels, X10 operation can be very reliable.  A signal meter will help you trace down the problems.  I wrote several tutorials that may help in your troubleshooting:

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 11, 2007, 01:14:13 PM
...Many people are using the XTB (Powerline Control Reliability (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?board=102.0)) to boost the output of their CM11A....
I'm one of those "many people" that highly recommend it.

Can you help me identify the XTB (Powerline Control Reliability)? Not sure what it is and where I can find one? Sounds like it might be what I need to fix this issue.

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Brian H on August 11, 2007, 01:48:37 PM
It is Jeffs device.
http://jvde.us/x10/x10_xtb.htm
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on August 11, 2007, 02:42:43 PM
To answer some of your questions:

- all automated commands coming from the CM11A are "timed' functions, not macros. As of last week, the timed commands are staggered slightly (by 10-15 minutes) so that they do not "collide" and possibly confuse the X10 module(s).

- not sure what the phase coupler is, passsive or active. Been a few years since I installed it so I'll have to pull the circuit panel cover off to check. Why would either active or passive have any issue with this situation?  ???

I was trying to determine the following:

Why should I get a tester when I can transmit the "on" commands to the X10 modules manually through the CM11A from Active Home and they work just fine? Does that not prove that the CM11A "on" commands can be seen just fine? What is the difference between the manually sent commands and the automated ones? Should be no difference.

I have 4 X10 modules with the same unit code, 07, placed in different locations around the house. Only one on that particular electrical circuit does not get the "on" commands. What is different about "on" commands from "off" commands since this same module receives the automated/programmed "on" command and does not respond to the "on" command? Why would the module respond to the "on" command executed from Acitve Home through the CM11A and not the progammed one?

The on commands can be seen under certain conditions.  You have a long run to your problem device and (as Jeff has pointed out) a marginal signal at that device.  As noise levels change in your house (electrical loads being switched on and off) you are losing communication with your problem unit.  There should be no difference between On and Off commands.  The difference is the noise environment when you are transmitting.

The ELK-ESM1 would allow you to measure background noise levels.  Using it, you should be able to unplug devices and determine which ones are generators.  These can be filtered.

The other alternative is using a booster like the XTB (or XTB-II).  These devices will amplify your existing signal to get it above the noise level.
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 12, 2007, 07:10:15 AM
It is Jeffs device.
http://jvde.us/x10/x10_xtb.htm

Since the XTB is not UL approved, who has these installed and what issues do they have?

I read the description of both the XTB and XTB-II. The basic difference is the XTB is for plugging into a 120VAC outlet for a house that has a passive phase coupler installed and the XTB-II is for connection between the 2 - 120VAC phases in a home?

If that is true, then since I have phase coupler installed, it would then probably be best to use the XTB and not the XTB-II?

I am also going to get the tester (ELK-ESM1) from Automated Outlet. Seems like even if I install the XTB, I could still run into a noise issue that the XTB might not overcome, then I would still need to figure out where the noise is coming from.

Anyway, thats the plan for now.....I'll report back how this goes!   ;)

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: steven r on August 12, 2007, 09:41:23 AM
Since the XTB is not UL approved, who has these installed and what issues do they have?...
No problems at all. I believe it could easily meet UL standards but as I understand the cost to get it approved would be prohibitive.
Care to comment, Jeff?

...I read the description of both the XTB and XTB-II. The basic difference is the XTB is for plugging into a 120VAC outlet for a house that has a passive phase coupler installed and the XTB-II is for connection between the 2 - 120VAC phases in a home?...
I think there is a slight advantage of the XTB-II over using a coupler and the XTB but if you already have a good coupler just get the XTB. I already had a coupler so that's what I did.

...I am also going to get the tester (ELK-ESM1) from Automated Outlet. Seems like even if I install the XTB, I could still run into a noise issue that the XTB might not overcome, then I would still need to figure out where the noise is coming from......
You'll find the tester to useful and fun to use.


Everyone that's been here awhile knows Jeff to be a wealth of information. There are links around somewhere to his site where just about any problem you might have with X10 is covered. I posted my recommendation for the XTB because I believe it to be a great product and so it didn't seem to those new to the site that he was here to just sell his products. :)
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 12, 2007, 11:33:13 AM
Quote
No problems at all. I believe it could easily meet UL standards but as I understand the cost to get it approved would be prohibitive.

Having designed electronic equipment for decades, I believe both the XTB and XTB-II are conservatively designed.  Both units are fuse-protected, and the power supply uses a UL-rated impedance-limited transformer that will open circuit if there is a failure that overloads the power supply, but doesn't take out the fuse.  Printed circuit traces have more than adequate spacing in the high-voltage section.  Line coupling capacitors are rated for more than the AC voltage that they will see.  Surge protectors are included on all AC inputs.  And both units use a UL rated flame-retardant plastic case.

I began the UL approval process months ago, but the quote was $6,000 to $14,000.  An independent testing laboratory (not UL) quoted about $5,000.  My entire net from this project last year was about $2000.  Since that included $35 labor each for the over 100 that I assembled myself, obviously my margin is very slim.  There is no way I can cover the cost of UL testing.

I'm getting tired of assembling these myself, and investigated an assembly service.  Their quote was $125 each at 10 units, which went down to $90 each at 40 units (not including components).  That shows you the real cost of producing a unit in this country.

Quote
I think there is a slight advantage of the XTB-II over using a coupler and the XTB but if you already have a good coupler just get the XTB.

They are really two different animals.  The XTB is an easy to use simple plug-in booster for just about any X10 transmitter.  The XTB-II is more like a 2-phase coupler that has a high-power TW523 "front end" grafted on to it.  And, it also boosts the output of a plug-in X10 transmitter.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on August 12, 2007, 12:15:58 PM
I am also going to get the tester (ELK-ESM1) from Automated Outlet. Seems like even if I install the XTB, I could still run into a noise issue that the XTB might not overcome, then I would still need to figure out where the noise is coming from.

That's a personal decision, but one that can eliminate significant hair loss.

I recently "broke" my system by replacing two X10 switches with Insteon 2 way switches.  The Insteon switches worked flawlessly, but my other X10 switches became intermittent.  Using the ELK tester I was able to determine that the Insteon switches were loading the line and preventing the X10 devices from reliably receiving (the Insteon devices have AGC, the X10 devices do not).

Since I can't filter the Insteon switches themselves I'm stuck.  I simply need more signal on the particular leg.  I've yanked the Insteon devices while I'm looking for a booster solution.  Jeff's XTB-II is #1 on the list.
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Brian H on August 12, 2007, 02:20:23 PM
The Insteon devices also are two way as they transmit back on the powerline. This transmitter circuit absorbs X10 and Insteon signals when it is receiving. Many report their X10 reliability goes down; as more Insteon devices are added to an installation.
A new X10  sender like a Mini-controller technically can also absorb and lower signals. As would a new AM14A or LM14A
Isn't this fun. ::)
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 16, 2007, 05:10:07 PM
I received the XTB yesterday and was all excited. I installed it in front of the CM11A. Well the first thing that was timed event after I installed the XTB was an "OFF" signal at 6:00 pm for the pond pump to shut off. That worked! But all the "OFF" commands had been working but at least I knew that the CM11A was transmitting through the XTB.

Well at 30 minutes past dusk the next timed event was to send out an "ON" command to all modules with code 7 for our night lights. All the modules went on EXCEPT THOSE ON THE PROBLEM CIRCUIT! Now the next timed event is for an "ON" command to be sent out 45 minutes after dusk for modules with code 15 which is for the flag pole lights. NOTHING!

The next timed command is sent at 11:00 pm with and "OFF" command for both code 7 & 15 to turn off. WORKS!

Nothing changed! Dissappointment sets in! I was really hoping that the XTB amplified signal would fix this but I guess I have to wait for the ELK-ESM1 to get here to see if there is noise on that particular circuit. Somehow I don't think that is the issue since I can turn both code 7 & 15 on with the handheld remote via the RR501 and the signal gets to those modules on that particular circuit just fine. Wouldn't the amplified signal from the CM11A through the XTB be greater than that coming from the RR501?

Time for a cold one......and wait for some feedback!

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 16, 2007, 06:25:56 PM
I went back and scanned this entire thread.  It stared with:

Quote
I have had an installation at my home for over 8 years. One of the things I control is outdoor lights with many LM465's across several legs/phases of power lines. I have a phase coupler installed and these have worked very nicely for several years.

The XTB will drive a much stronger signal on the phase it is plugged into.  However, a good tuned-circuit passive coupler must be installed near the main distribution panel to propagate that strong signal over to the opposite phase.  I am also puzzled by "across several legs/phases of power lines".  Most North American residences have a 120V/240V split-phase distribution system.  So there would only be two legs.  If there are multiple distribution panels with independent feeds from the street, a more complex coupling scheme may be necessary.

Since merely plugging in the XTB didn't solve the problem, would you please supply more information:

1)  Could you elaborate on your electrical distribution system.  (number of phases, legs, panels)

2)  Can you identify whether your CM11A/XTB combo is on a different phase from the "problem" circuit?

3)  Can you identify whether your RR501 on the same phase as the "problem" circuit?

4)  Are there any compact fluorescent light bulbs anywhere in the installation?

5)  What type of phase coupler do you use?  (Manufacturer, part #)

6)  Does a manual command from the CM11A/XTB combo exhibit the same problem?

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Brian H on August 16, 2007, 06:59:41 PM
Jeff; I actually saw a Condo, that was wired three phase 'Y'. 208 Volts between two Lines and 120 Volts between any one Line and Neutral.
To get best performance with things like electric stoves and dryers. 208 Volt units where used if available.  ;D
Rare to be sure but who knows.
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 17, 2007, 06:38:10 AM
I went back and scanned this entire thread.  It stared with:

Quote
I have had an installation at my home for over 8 years. One of the things I control is outdoor lights with many LM465's across several legs/phases of power lines. I have a phase coupler installed and these have worked very nicely for several years.

The XTB will drive a much stronger signal on the phase it is plugged into.  However, a good tuned-circuit passive coupler must be installed near the main distribution panel to propagate that strong signal over to the opposite phase.  I am also puzzled by "across several legs/phases of power lines".  Most North American residences have a 120V/240V split-phase distribution system.  So there would only be two legs.  If there are multiple distribution panels with independent feeds from the street, a more complex coupling scheme may be necessary.

Since merely plugging in the XTB didn't solve the problem, would you please supply more information:

1)  Could you elaborate on your electrical distribution system.  (number of phases, legs, panels)

2)  Can you identify whether your CM11A/XTB combo is on a different phase from the "problem" circuit?

3)  Can you identify whether your RR501 on the same phase as the "problem" circuit?

4)  Are there any compact fluorescent light bulbs anywhere in the installation?

5)  What type of phase coupler do you use?  (Manufacturer, part #)

6)  Does a manual command from the CM11A/XTB combo exhibit the same problem?

Jeff


Jeff,

I'll try to answer your questions I can right now and follow up with the others later,

1)  Could you elaborate on your electrical distribution system.  (number of phases, legs, panels)

As you stated, my eletrical feed from the street transformer is 2 phase. The feed comes into the electric meter then comes into my home, first goes to distribution bar, splits so I can feed two circuits panels side by side, one panel is a little larger than the other with 36 circuit breakers, the smaller one with 20 circuit breakers. Both panels are Square D with QOS model circuit breakers. Most of the "standard" circuits feeding the house are 20 amps because we have 12 gauge wiring. The problem circuits (note circuits, not just one) are fed from the larger circuit panel. What I have installed for the controls around my house that use the X10 technology is mostly lighting control, but also use it to control a pond pump, and relay to buzzer. The largest amount of X10 modules around the house are used to control night time low voltage lighting which is code 7. There are 5 LM465 modules on various circuits fed from both circuit panels that have code 7 set on them. All the other X10 modules normally installed (I say normally since we use about 15 LM465's during holiday/Christmas time using code 12 to control Christmas lights and this works fine as well) are all single various model modules. The other module I need to note here is 1 LM465 set for code 15 which controls a spot light for the flag pole. The two circuits which feed X10 modules that are NOT receiving the "ON" codes are 1 LM465 for code 7 and 1 LM465 for code 15. These two LM465's are set in an underground box outside. I recently dug up the box and removed the cover, it was dry and all equipment was in very good condition. This box is fed by one 12 gauge 3 wire with ground cable directly from the circuit panel (about 85 feet from circuit breaker to outlet/X10 module). This 12 gauge 3 wire has the black wire going into one side of a double 20 amp breaker and the red wire going into the other side of the same double breaker, thus these two wires are on separte phases of the electric coming into the house. The phase coupler is in the same circuit panel as these two wires. I do not have the manufacturer/model of the phase coupler but almost sure it is passive. I'll take the circuit panel cover off and get the manufacturer/model later. The two LM465's in the underground box feeding the one for module set for code 7 and the other LM465 feeding the one for module set for code 15 are on separate wires/circuits fed from the circuit panel on the aforementioned 12 gauge 3 wire cable thus these two LM465's are on separate circuits, one on each phase of the electric service. These are the 2 of the 3 LM465's in that underground box on those 2 circuits that do not respond to the "ON" codes but do respond to "OFF" codes. The other LM465 is for the pond pump and the timed event is set for "ON" at 6:00 a.m. and "OFF" at 6:00 p.m. Hope this paints about as good a picture I can without actually having a schematic drawing for you.  

2)  Can you identify whether your CM11A/XTB combo is on a different phase from the "problem" circuit?

Not sure how to be able to verify this right now, but as described in answer to question number one, the CM11A/XTB combo has to be on either the code 7 or the code 15 phase since these are on separate phases.

3)  Can you identify whether your RR501 on the same phase as the "problem" circuit?

Pretty much same answer as question number 2.

4)  Are there any compact fluorescent light bulbs anywhere in the installation?

Yes, there are seveal installed and are on/off at various time during the day, but this installation has been working fine with all of these in place for several years, no changes or additions to this since the problem came up!

5)  What type of phase coupler do you use?  (Manufacturer, part #)

Get this and post it later! Not sure it is really relevant since the problem spans both phases of the service.

6)  Does a manual command from the CM11A/XTB combo exhibit the same problem?

Manual command from my PC through the CM11A turns on ALL LM465's with code 7 including the one on the problem circuit and same for code 15.

Now, this is a strange one isn't it!

I got the ELK-ESM1 tester late yesterday. I plugged it into several outlets around the house and tried sending X10 commands with the handheld remote via the RR501. Good X10 command (green light) and very strong signal, went all the way to the right side of the scale. One thing I noticed is that the signal when sent for each command was seen twice. Once about 1 second after the command was sent (signal meter pegged to the right), and a second time about a second later (again, signal meter pegged to the right). Could there be some "reflection" causing this problem?

OK....not time for a cold one now, but definitely later. Wher do you suggest I start now? My plan is to dig up the underground box and plug the ELK-ESM1 into those outlet (one from each separate circuit breaker) and test the manual X10 commands sent. Not sure I have enough patience to sit there and wait and try to see the timed events.

I also plugged the ELK-ESM1 into an outlet next to my TV last night and set the unit on top of the TV to monitor whether or not I saw any transient noise on the meter......NONE AT ALL...ZIPPO....NOT A PEEP OUT OF IT! This also happens to be on the same circuit as one of the fluorscent lights for the fish tank, so I think that eliminates that as a noise source.

Anyway, thats all my thoughts for now.

Feedback?

Again, thanks to all for your help and suggestions so far.

Bruce

Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 17, 2007, 10:45:37 AM
More info/update!

Pulled the cover off the large circuit breaker panel. The phase coupler is a Leviton 6201/120 Coupler/Repeater.

I do stand to correct myself though from the last post. The circuit breakers for each of these circuits are NOT a double breaker, but two singles, one on top of the other on the same side of the panel, so therefore they are on each phase of the electric. Code 7 is on one phase and code 15 is on another. Both of these codes are timed events for both "ON" & "OFF". "ON" codes are not being recognized, but "OFF" codes are!

One last thing I did was to swap the circuit breakers between themselves. One was in slot 34 and the other was in slot 36 of the panel. Swapped them. Does not seem like this could have any bearing, but who knows at this point!

Any ideas guys?

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 17, 2007, 11:19:33 AM
Quote
Pulled the cover off the large circuit breaker panel. The phase coupler is a Leviton 6201/120 Coupler/Repeater.
Ah!  That is what I suspected.  That is not a passive coupler, but the original Leviton repeater.  It is a fine unit - we used one at our last house - but it will not couple the strong XTB signal to the second phase.

That is not the total answer because the code 7 and 15 modules are on opposite phases, and they both do not work.  That puzzles me because the XTB signal would certainly be strong on its own phase.  However, unless it is near your distribution panels, much of its signal strength can be lost in that initial run down to the panels.  From your detailed description, it is obvious you have an extensive X10 system.  It may take a bit of work to ensure adequate signal strengths throughout.

Since you now have a ESM1, I suggest building a macro in the CM11A to recognize a signal from the RR501, delay 5 seconds, and then send out another command.  Then you could go out to where those 7 and 15 modules are, send a RF command, and see what the signal strength is directly from the RR501 and from the CM11A/XTB combo.

Since you don't already have a good passive coupler installed, you might consider using the XTB-II, which drives both phases directly, and has a built-in passive coupler.  It should be installed at the distribution panel in place of your Leviton repeater.  The downside is that your CM11A would have to be plugged into the XTB-II at the distribution panel for it to directly boost its output.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 18, 2007, 06:33:11 AM
Jeff,

Thanks for the reply. Got a couple of questions from your response:

1. Not sure I understand why the Leviton Repeater will not "couple the strong XTB signal to the second phase". Isn't that what it is supposed to do?

2. Can you help me understand the "macro" thing? I have built some in the past but they really do not work right and when you say "recognize a signal from the RR501", that really looses me!

3. XTB-II? Not sure this is viable right now for several reasons. 1. I don't want the CM11A that far away from my PC right now because interfacing with it is a real pain. 2. If I spend any more $$ on this with out a good reason, I just might be sleeping in the garage!  ;)

I did move the CM11A closer to the circuit panel last might but again, no change. "ON" codes to the X10 modules on these two circuits ignored, but "OFF" codes responded to.

I just don't understand why the difference? I would think that I would see all the X10 commands or none, but not specific commands such as TIMED "ON" codes because the manually sent "ON" codes from the CM11A are responded to. Could there be something wrong with the LM465's in the underground box?

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: KDR on August 18, 2007, 08:59:25 AM
BSarte although I can't tell you why, I have a basement pull chain light with a screw in lamp module. From there the line goes to an outside wall and up to a livingroom outlet. That is where the circuit ends. If my wife plugs her laptop into that outlet, I can send an ON command to the light downstairs and it comes on. However I can not get it to respond to an OFF command until the laptop is unplugged. I installed a filter between the laptop and the outlet and all works good.

For some reason the on command is always seen and works but the off command won't. Perhaps you have some device plugged in somewhere that is causing a similar problem.

What you might try... Send the wife out shopping. Tell her to get herself something nice. While shes gone try turning off as many breakers as you can and then retest your problem circuits. If it works then start turning them on one by one until you find the circuit causing the problem Maybe this will narrow it down. Just be sure the house is powered back on before she gets home. Good luck.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 18, 2007, 10:40:12 AM
Quote
1. Not sure I understand why the Leviton Repeater will not "couple the strong XTB signal to the second phase". Isn't that what it is supposed to do?

Nope.  A repeater does exactly what the name says.  X10 signals are normally transmitted in two identical halves.  A repeater receives the X10 signal during the first half, and then re-transmits it using its own internal transmitter in sync with the second half.  The strength of the signal on the opposite phase is determined by the output capability of the repeater itself.

A good tuned circuit passive coupler provides a low-impedance path between the phases at the X10 carrier frequency.  So the strong XTB output is coupled directly across the phases.

Unless the XTB is combined with a good tuned-circuit passive repeater, only the phase that the XTB is plugged into will receive the stronger signal.

Quote
2. Can you help me understand the "macro" thing? I have built some in the past but they really do not work right and when you say "recognize a signal from the RR501", that really looses me!

Think of a macro as a "mini program" that is initiated by some event.  For example:

If receive A1 ON then delay 5 sec and then transmit A2 ON.

I haven't used the CM11A in years, but I recall they were built graphically.

Quote
I don't want the CM11A that far away from my PC right now because interfacing with it is a real pain.

That can be an issue for many people.  If you want the XTB to drive both phases, you will need a good passive coupler at the panel.

Quote
I just don't understand why the difference? I would think that I would see all the X10 commands or none, but not specific commands such as TIMED "ON" codes because the manually sent "ON" codes from the CM11A are responded to.

That's one I don't understand either.  One thought was that the timed events were not being transmitted properly.  However, I recall your stating that other modules DID respond to those ON codes.  So the only thing that is left is a signal or noise issue.  Checking the signal strength at those modules should give some insight into what is happening.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 18, 2007, 02:54:29 PM

Quote
2. Can you help me understand the "macro" thing? I have built some in the past but they really do not work right and when you say "recognize a signal from the RR501", that really looses me!

Think of a macro as a "mini program" that is initiated by some event.  For example:

If receive A1 ON then delay 5 sec and then transmit A2 ON.

I haven't used the CM11A in years, but I recall they were built graphically.

I'll give it try and see what happens.

Quote
I just don't understand why the difference? I would think that I would see all the X10 commands or none, but not specific commands such as TIMED "ON" codes because the manually sent "ON" codes from the CM11A are responded to.

That's one I don't understand either.  One thought was that the timed events were not being transmitted properly.  However, I recall your stating that other modules DID respond to those ON codes.  So the only thing that is left is a signal or noise issue.  Checking the signal strength at those modules should give some insight into what is happening.

Jeff
Quote

Yes, the real test here is that there are 5 LM465's that are set to code 7. Four of them are on other legs/circuits of the electrical wiring from the circuit panel and work 100% of the time responding to both "ON' and "OFF" codes. It is just this one particular set of wires (2 separate circuits each having its own distinct circuit breaker on separate phases of the electric and each having a differently coded LM465 on it) going out of the house for about 85 feet into an underground box which do not respond to timed "ON" codes, but do respond 100% of the time to timed "OFF" codes.

I also have a detached garage that has #2 wire running from the house circuit panel back to another circuit panel in it. The distance is minimum of 375' from one panel to the other. I put the ELK-ESM1 in an outlet in the detached garage today and had my wife use the handheld remote to send commands through the RR501 up at the house. The signal is 2 bars on the scale which would translate to about .5 volts. A little low but it is enough to control a Leviton Wall Switch (same at the WS467), so it looks like there is plenty of signal going quit a distance around here! The X10 green light also light, so I guess we can say the command is formatted correctly as well.

When I tested the signal strength at various outlets around the house, the signal strength from the handheld remote through the RR510 averaged just over 1.0 volts and again, a green X10 light.

I'll have to dig up the out door box and test that tomorrow.

Lets see what I come up with.....

I'll also try the macro to send out continous timed commands every 5-10 seconds and see what I get. I guess I'll use a code that is not being used on any of the modules so that way it will simulate but not actually do anything other than test the circuit for noise and good X10 command format.

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 18, 2007, 03:39:48 PM
As I recall, those "problem" modules did work when commanded via your RR501.  It would be interesting to see what signal levels you read coming directly from the CM11A/XTB combo.  Since the CM11A is not as easy to trigger as the RR501 unless you build a macro, you might just move the RR501 to the socket that your CM11A is now plugged into.  Then test signal levels again - perhaps with and without the XTB boosting the RR501 output.  I wonder what the signal level is at those "problem" modules when the source is the CM11A.  If the signal level doesn't change with the XTB, then they are on the opposite phase.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on August 18, 2007, 10:46:44 PM
I also have a detached garage that has #2 wire running from the house circuit panel back to another circuit panel in it. The distance is minimum of 375' from one panel to the other. I put the ELK-ESM1 in an outlet in the detached garage today and had my wife use the handheld remote to send commands through the RR501 up at the house. The signal is 2 bars on the scale which would translate to about .5 volts. A little low but it is enough to control a Leviton Wall Switch (same at the WS467), so it looks like there is plenty of signal going quit a distance around here! The X10 green light also light, so I guess we can say the command is formatted correctly as well.

Bruce,
Be careful making the assumption that because the Leviton switch functioned your LM465 should function as well.  Depending on the model, your Leviton switch may have AGC and would be more reliable when dealing with low signal levels.

Another thought on the manual on vs timed on events - I've noticed in the past that the CM15a produces "malformed" power line commands when using timed events and macro's.  When manually activating (graphic control) the commands are clean. 

The following is what my testerlinc reports for a simple macro executed On command:

Macro E6 On
E6
BCY (bad 3 cycle gap)
E6 On

The above doesn't appear to affect my modules (they all respond).  I'm wondering whether it may further complicate things in a noisy or low signal environment.

Oldtimers, any theories out there?
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 19, 2007, 06:38:02 AM

Another thought on the manual on vs timed on events - I've noticed in the past that the CM15a produces "malformed" power line commands when using timed events and macro's.  When manually activating (graphic control) the commands are clean. 

The following is what my testerlinc reports for a simple macro executed On command:

Macro E6 On
E6
BCY (bad 3 cycle gap)
E6 On

The above doesn't appear to affect my modules (they all respond).  I'm wondering whether it may further complicate things in a noisy or low signal environment.

Oldtimers, any theories out there?

Thanks for the input!

I use a CM11A, not the CM15A. Does the same distortion of commands happen from the CM11A? If it does, then why are all the other LM465's with the same code (7) responding fine? Kinda a rhetorical question. There has to be something on those two circuits distorting the "ON" commands.

As soon as I dig up the underground box and test, I'll have better info but I have to build the macro to send out continous commands first....so maybe today, but maybe not with family coming over...

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on August 19, 2007, 09:29:59 AM
Bruce,

I think I remember seeing posts complaining about the same "malformed" transmissions with the CM11a.  My CM11a has been stored for about 4 years now.  Maybe someone else can verify this?

At this point this is just an observation.  I can't think of anything that a "bad 3 cycle gap" would do to affect the turn on of a receiver.  Let's table this one for the moment (probably shouldn't have brought it up - it's a distraction).

Here's a better scenario -


If you wanted to test the above, you could plug another load into your underground box.  Your LM465 should turn on reliably with the second load activated.  This obviously won't solve anything.  But it may allow you to sleep better knowing it's not all smoke and mirrors.

Bottom line is that I believe that you and Jeff are on the correct track.  The XTB should boost your CM11a output and allow you to reliably communicate with the problem LM465 (as your RR501 does now).

This is an intriguing problem - please keep posting your results.






Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 19, 2007, 12:02:43 PM
Bruce,

I think I remember seeing posts complaining about the same "malformed" transmissions with the CM11a.  My CM11a has been stored for about 4 years now.  Maybe someone else can verify this?

What other unit can I use if the CM11A is the culprit? CM15A?



Quote
At this point this is just an observation.  I can't think of anything that a "bad 3 cycle gap" would do to affect the turn on of a receiver.  Let's table this one for the moment (probably shouldn't have brought it up - it's a distraction).

Here's a better scenario -

  • With your "problem" LM465 off you have a long weekly terminated transmission line with a fair amount of X10 signal loss.  Under these conditions your LM465 can't reliably detect the ON command.
  • When you do manage to activate the LM465 your line becomes terminated through the load resistance.  Your LM465 is now able to reliably detect the OFF commands
  • Your RF commands work reliably because your RR501 has a higher output level than your CM11a
  • Your manual CM11a commands work because?? This is where I was theorizing about the "malformed" timer commands

I tested the transmission levels to both circuits in the underground box, I'll elaborate more farther down, but on the ELK-ESM1 meter, I see a good X10 command and levels at about 1.1 volts for the RR501 commands, the CM11A timed & macro commands, and the CM11A direct commands.

Quote
If you wanted to test the above, you could plug another load into your underground box.  Your LM465 should turn on reliably with the second load activated.  This obviously won't solve anything.  But it may allow you to sleep better knowing it's not all smoke and mirrors.

When I tested the signal format & levels, there was the transformer for the ELK-ESM1 installed which I would assume should be enough load?

Quote
This is an intriguing problem - please keep posting your results.

'intriguing' is not quite the word I would use right now!

Well, I opened up the underground box today. Let me explani what is in there coming from the circut panel. from the circuit panel I have a #12 3 wire with ground cable terminated in a quad box with 1 (black) wire feeding one duplex outlet and 1 wire (red) feeding another duplex in that quad receptacle with the white and ground wires common between the two duplex receptacles, thus giving me two separate 110 VAC outlets. In the circuit panel the black & red wires are terminated in separate circuit breakers stacked one on top of the other thus giving me power from both phases of the electric coming in.

Now, there are 4 LM465's in that box with codes 4, 7, 14, & 15. 4 is not a timed only used when we want to turn those lights on manually. 7, 14, & 15 are all timed events from the CM11A with 7 & 15 turning on just after dusk and going off at 11 p.m.. 14 is timed to go on at 6 a.m. and shut off at 6 p.m. through the CM11A timed event(s).

Now what I did was to plug the transformer into one of the outlets (removing module with code 4) so I could watch the commands and signal levels. Before that I created a macro (code 2) to turn on codes 7 & 15, then 1 minute later turn off codes 7 & 15, then one minute later turn on codes 7 & 15, then one minute later turn off 7 & 15.

When I executed the 2 command from the hand held remote, I saw signal levels at one red bar over the 1.1 volt scale which should put the level at about 1.3-1.4 volts and the green X10 light went on. Each succesive command from the macro was about the same but the LM465's did NOT go on. When I simply executed the on command from the hand held remote (which executes via the RR501), the levels were not any stronger and the green X10 light went on AND THE LM465's WENT ON!

One thing I noticed was that the simple command via the RR501 appeared to be different. The signal bar showed several ( 3-4) pegs about 1/2 second apart while the macro commands only showed two very quick pegs to the signal level.

Now lets go back to the way I have these circuits wired up. Since I am using the white wire as a common between the two circuits, could the X10 commands be "colliding" and canceling each other?

All of the above tests were done without the XTB in place. One other test I did was to put the XTB in place in front of the CM11A and test the signal levels. One side of the duplex outlet showed a very marginal increase in signal level, maybe up to 1.4-1.5 volts.

I put everything back to together and quit for the day. Got family coming over and the ribs need to be marinated, cold beer needs to be drunk, and forget this whole 'intriguing' issue for now.

Feedback please!

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 19, 2007, 12:46:30 PM
Quote
When I tested the signal format & levels, there was the transformer for the ELK-ESM1 installed which I would assume should be enough load?

The ESM1 transformer presents very little load to X10 signals due to its relatively high inductance.

Quote
Since I am using the white wire as a common between the two circuits, could the X10 commands be "colliding" and canceling each other?

No, that should not be a problem.  The white will be the return path for both phases.  You measured plenty of signal, so the problem must be associated with the timed commands themselves.

Quote
All of the above tests were done without the XTB in place. One other test I did was to put the XTB in place in front of the CM11A and test the signal levels. One side of the duplex outlet showed a very marginal increase in signal level, maybe up to 1.4-1.5 volts.

Since you don't have a good passive coupler, this is exactly what I would expect.  The signal on that phase is coming from your Leviton repeater, not the XTB.  I'm starting to wonder whether the repeater might be part of this mix too...

Regarding possible "malformed commands" coming from the CM11A, I don't understand why some modules respond to those and some do not.  I recall your saying you had several modules set to the same codes, and only those in that underground box did not work.  The others responded to the CM11A timed events properly.  Would you confirm this is true?

If that is the case, the only possible difference is the signal level and perhaps the LM465s themselves.

The X10 spec says there should be a 3 cycle gap between commands.  It also says there should be no gap between bright/dim commands sent in sequence.  The RR501 does place a gap between commands.  It was interesting to discover that the X10 maxi-controller DOES NOT place a gap between commands.  When a button is held down it sends a sequence of commands one right after the other without any gap between.  It doesn't matter which key is pressed.  This is true for the old boxy unit and the new low profile one with the smoked plastic cover.  I can't check out the  CM11A because my computers are all running XP now, and none of them will recognize the CM11A through the serial port.

Jeff

Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 19, 2007, 01:07:08 PM

Since you don't have a good passive coupler, this is exactly what I would expect.  The signal on that phase is coming from your Leviton repeater, not the XTB.  I'm starting to wonder whether the repeater might be part of this mix too...

OK, time to consider getting a new 'passive' coupler. What should I consider?

Quote
Regarding possible "malformed commands" coming from the CM11A, I don't understand why some modules respond to those and some do not.  I recall your saying you had several modules set to the same codes, and only those in that underground box did not work.  The others responded to the CM11A timed events properly.  Would you confirm this is true?

Yes, code 7 has 5 separate LM465's around the house and only one of them is in this underground box, so it is not the specific code but all the LM465's in this box that do not respond to on codes in this box on those two circuits. All the other LM465's with that code (7) respond to both on and off codes. Could it be as simple as no load in that box on those circuits? Simply, put a load on those circuits and they seem to work as with the off codes as they do when they are on and the off code is sent, they shut off! All the other circuits with the other LM465's that work fine probably do have loads on them. Should I consider putting something in that box that would creat a larger load and be on all the time? Hmm. maybe a simple test would be to run the pond pump longer (past when the night lights are scheduled to come on)?

Quote
I can't check out the  CM11A because my computers are all running XP now, and none of them will recognize the CM11A through the serial port.


That is exactly the way I am running mine, Windows XP SP2 through the serial port to the CM11A with ActiveHome.

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on August 19, 2007, 01:39:05 PM
Bruce,

Sorry, I seem to have jumped in without reading up on your "saga".  I missed several important details in your installation (specifically your Leviton repeater).  I also apologize for my poor choice of words (i.e. intriguing).

...One thing I noticed was that the simple command via the RR501 appeared to be different. The signal bar showed several ( 3-4) pegs about 1/2 second apart while the macro commands only showed two very quick pegs to the signal level.

The difference in the indications between the RR501 and CM11a transmissions indicate that these units may be on opposite phases.  The RR501 sounds like it is on the same phase as your Elk tester.  The communication sequence would be as follows (four pegs of your ESM1):

RR501
Houscode, Unit code (EX : E6 - transmitted twice)
Housecode ON (E ON transmitted twice)

In contrast to the above, if your CM11a is on the opposite phase, the Leviton repeater will repeat only one of the two transmissions (two pegs of your ESM1)-

CM11a
Houscode, Unit code (EX : E6 - one transmission)
Housecode ON (E ON one transmission)

As Jeff has indicated, your Leviton repeater will block any signal increase from the XTB and will transmit at it's own output level.

OK, time to consider getting a new 'passive' coupler. What should I consider?

In order to get the maximum benefit from the XTB, I would say yes.  Jeff is far better qualified to give recommendations on the type/model.

As a test, try plugging a trouble light or other resistive load into your box.  I'm starting to wonder if your electrical run has been compromised (increased resistance/capacitance).  Have you had any "activity" in the area of this run that might have damaged the wire?  How old is this wiring?

The Boiler
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 19, 2007, 02:56:43 PM
Quote
OK, time to consider getting a new 'passive' coupler. What should I consider?

An inexpensive passive coupler that works well is the SignaLinc 4816H.  It is essentially a .1uF cap with a 18uH inductor in series to cancel the capacitive reactance at 120KHz.  The one misgiving I have about that unit is that the sample I examined had a 400VDC capacitor, which is certainly marginal at 240VAC.  A capacitor rated for 250VAC would have cost them a few cents more.  The X10 XPCP and similar Leviton coupler is a much more complex unit with twin tuned circuits and transformer isolation from input to output.  The original version I tested drives the two legs "out of phase" when wired per the diagram.  The newer one in the "Decora" style case drives the two legs "in phase" when wired per the diagram.  More info on what this means can be found here:  http://jvde.us/x10/x10_couplers.htm

Both the SignaLinc 4816 and the original XPCP can be found on eBay for about $10 plus shipping.  The newer "Decora" XPCP is about $30.  I have a few of them left at $25 each.

For best performace, I recommend a coupler that wires directly to your distribution panel.  The phase of either XPCP can be flipped to match the output of your repeater.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 20, 2007, 05:56:32 AM
Test last night by leaving the pond pump on later (unit creating more load on those two circuits) did not have any positive change, still nothing responded to the CM11A timed commands, but did respond to the off commands. I did not expect anything since the pond pump is plugged into one of the circuits and all the other equipment is plugged into the other circuit.

One other thought was to eliminate one of the circuits and have everything plugged into the same circuit. Might have some effect. Can't do that change for a while since Iwill be traveling until next week.

I just bought and paid for an X10 XPCP passive coupler. So hopefully that will be here when I get back and then I can install that as well as to make the change in the underground box to put eveything on one circuit and eliminate the other.

Any further thoughts on what could be effecting the "on" commands to these two circuits? Nothing around those two circuits has been changed that I am aware of that could have some effect on those two circuits. I ran this #12 3 wire cable out of the house encased in 1" electrical PVC all the way over to the underground box, so the wire should be well protected, and it is a straight run abut 85 to 90 feet from the circuit panel. I have three other runs of outdoor electric around the house and have done the same thing since I am always afraid of hitting the wire when digging if I don't encase it in electrical PVC underground.

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on August 20, 2007, 04:18:37 PM
Bruce,
Sounds like a nice install on the underground run.

I'm sorry but I don't have anything constructive to add at the moment.  Let us know if adding a load to your problem circuit or adding the XPCP changes anything.

Boiler
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 28, 2007, 05:18:08 PM
I have been away on a business trip and just before I left, I ordered the X10 XPCP. When I got home on Monday, it was here.

Today, I got everything together to install it. I installed it very carefully as always, understanding and following the instructions. I used a 2 foot long tail piece of #12 3 wire with ground to connect the XPCP up to two circuit breakers, using the red/black for connection to the L1/L2 poles on the XPCP to the two differing circuit breakers on each phase of the panel and the ground/white for the N's to the common in the circuit panel. Unfortunately, when I turned on the first breaker, the XPCP shorted out violently.  ??? :o >:(

I double checked the diagram and all the wiring, but it appears that the XPCP shorted out internally. I double checked all the wire colors and the labels on the XPCP. All is wired correctly. :-\

I guess I'll have to order another and give it another try!

Are there any Leviton equivalents of the XPCP?

Also, I was planning on installing a load in my underground box so as to try that to resolve this issue. Any idea's on what would be good to provide a sufficient load but not run up too much on my electric bill? Needs to be something that has a good long life before failure since this will be in the under ground box.

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 28, 2007, 05:27:27 PM
Just bought the Leviton 6299!  ;)
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 28, 2007, 06:11:23 PM
Quote
Today, I got everything together to install it. I installed it very carefully as always, understanding and following the instructions. I used a 2 foot long tail piece of #12 3 wire with ground to connect the XPCP up to two circuit breakers, using the red/black for connection to the L1/L2 poles on the XPCP to the two differing circuit breakers on each phase of the panel and the ground/white for the N's to the common in the circuit panel. Unfortunately, when I turned on the first breaker, the XPCP shorted out violently.

That wiring sounds correct, except that my unit has two black and two white wires.  Internally there is complete transformer isolation between input and output.  And both hot leads are capacitor isolated.  There is a surge protector from each hot lead to neutral, so the only path capable of carrying current is through the surge protectors.  It would be interesting to get an ohmic reading between the red and black leads, and then from red and black to both whites.  All paths should have high resistance.

I believe the Leviton 6299 is identical to the older XPCP.  One thing to remember is that the older XPCP drives the 120KHz signal to both legs out of phase.  So a 240V load in parallel will load down the coupler.  The phase can be flipped by reversing the white/black on one side.  The newer "Decora" XPCP drives the legs in phase when wired per the diagram.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 28, 2007, 06:29:28 PM

That wiring sounds correct, except that my unit has two black and two white wires.  Internally there is complete transformer isolation between input and output.  And both hot leads are capacitor isolated.  There is a surge protector from each hot lead to neutral, so the only path capable of carrying current is through the surge protectors.  It would be interesting to get an ohmic reading between the red and black leads, and then from red and black to both whites.  All paths should have high resistance.

I believe the Leviton 6299 is identical to the older XPCP.  One thing to remember is that the older XPCP drives the 120KHz signal to both legs out of phase.  So a 240V load in parallel will load down the coupler.  The phase can be flipped by reversing the white/black on one side.  The newer "Decora" XPCP drives the legs in phase when wired per the diagram.

Jeff

I must have gotten one of the newer Decora style XPCP's. It does not have any wires coming out of it, 8 lugs on the back which have decal running up the side to label which lug is for what, L1,N,N,L2. Each of them having the capability of having two wires connected to each thus 8 holes.

I wired it up according to the diagam, but WHAMO! She popped real nice and scared me half out of my pants!

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on August 28, 2007, 06:49:12 PM
Quote
I must have gotten one of the newer Decora style XPCP's. It does not have any wires coming out of it, 8 lugs on the back which have decal running up the side to label which lug is for what, L1,N,N,L2. Each of them having the capability of having two wires connected to each thus 8 holes.

I'm familiar with that unit too.  The one I tested was virtually identical to the earlier version except that the output phase is flipped.  There should be no DC continuity between any of the lugs.  It would be interesting to know where the short is.

Jeff
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 28, 2007, 06:53:07 PM
I just ordered the Leviton 6299, so I'll wait until I get it to figure out what I need to complete the installation. When I do that I'll completely pull out the X10 XPCP and see where the cause of failure is. Right now all I did was to remove all the wiring from the circuit breaker panel.

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on August 29, 2007, 06:35:32 AM
Bruce,
From your previous description, I believe your LM465's are "older" units.

None the less, have a look at the following thread that deals with timers and "newer" X10 switches (there is a new version LM465):

WS465 Timed Commands: Real Head Scratcher (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13251.new#new)

The thread refers to a new WS467 that will not activate with a Timed ON command. 

Active Home Pro, has an option for sending an "ON" command instead of a "Bright 100%" command.  I'm not sure if the CM11a/Active home have the same options.

Boiler
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 29, 2007, 07:31:29 AM
Bruce,
From your previous description, I believe your LM465's are "older" units.

None the less, have a look at the following thread that deals with timers and "newer" X10 switches (there is a new version LM465):

WS465 Timed Commands: Real Head Scratcher (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13251.new#new)

The thread refers to a new WS467 that will not activate with a Timed ON command. 

Active Home Pro, has an option for sending an "ON" command instead of a "Bright 100%" command.  I'm not sure if the CM11a/Active home have the same options.

Boiler

Boiler,

Thanks for that info. Makes me "scratch my head" even more!

The LM465's that are in that underground box that house the problem circuits are older units, been there for at least 5-6 years. I have quite a few (over 20) LM465's that I bought over the last year or two. My wife had me put one on the Christmas tree to control the lights for it a few years back and when she discovered how convenient that was, she started adding wreaths with lights to just about every window in the house, so around the holidays, we have over 25 LM465's receiving two different codes, 7 for the driveway lights and code 12 for the Christmas decoration lights. Since all the LM465's I have bought over the past two years should be the "newer" version, next time I have the underground box open, I swap them all out! Still one thing lingers though, all the other LM465's for the driveway lights that are on code 7 and NOT in that underground box are also "older" ones, been installed for the 5-6 years all receive the timed "ON" code just fine.

I think there is an issue with the two circuits going into that underground box affecting the timed "ON" code when there is no load on it. Why this just cropped up, not sure.

I use ActiveHome, not ActiveHome Pro. Is there any real difference for what I am doing? All timed events, not really any macros?

I also realized that this problem seemed to start just after I had a problem on my PC. Lost everything to a hard drive crash back in February of this year. Had to rebuild everything and the ActiveHome DB file was one of these things and I reloaded the CM11A about the same time this whole thing started.

When I look at the installed devices, they all look the same, and that does not answer the same question as stated above, why do all the other LM465's with code 7 on other circuits receive the timed "ON" code just fine? Back to the same issue, this problem is for LM465's on circuits that have no load on them when the command is sent out but they work fine when the timed "OFF" code is sent out. I have tried leaving a device (Pond Pump, should be enough draw to show a load?) turned on past the point when the timed "ON" code is sent, but still not recognized!

Still got me scratching my head! :-)

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on August 30, 2007, 12:44:38 PM
I also realized that this problem seemed to start just after I had a problem on my PC. Lost everything to a hard drive crash back in February of this year. Had to rebuild everything and the ActiveHome DB file was one of these things and I reloaded the CM11A about the same time this whole thing started.

Bruce,
From the above, it seems possible that some of the "options" changed in ActiveHome when you reloaded.  Charles Sullivan recently pointed out that ActiveHome Pro has an option that will send a ON command in place of a DIM 100% command. 

I don't know if ActiveHome/CM11a has a similar option, but this could definately produce different results.

If you would like to try "forcing" ON/OFF commands (instead of bright/dim commands) you could change your device type to an Appliance Module.  ActiveHome will only send ON/OFF commands to these modules since they do not support dimming.

If you suspect that your indoor LM465's are a newer version, I would not move this into your outdoor box.  You may create new problems.

As far as we know, the new modules began shipping this year (07Dxx date code).

Charles had a nice writeup on the new features here: New_LM465 (http://www.heyu.org/docs/New_LM465.txt)
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on August 31, 2007, 07:58:07 AM
From the above, it seems possible that some of the "options" changed in ActiveHome when you reloaded.  Charles Sullivan recently pointed out that ActiveHome Pro has an option that will send a ON command in place of a DIM 100% command. 

I don't know if ActiveHome/CM11a has a similar option, but this could definately produce different results.

If you would like to try "forcing" ON/OFF commands (instead of bright/dim commands) you could change your device type to an Appliance Module.  ActiveHome will only send ON/OFF commands to these modules since they do not support dimming.

If you suspect that your indoor LM465's are a newer version, I would not move this into your outdoor box.  You may create new problems.

As far as we know, the new modules began shipping this year (07Dxx date code).

Charles had a nice writeup on the new features here: New_LM465 (http://www.heyu.org/docs/New_LM465.txt)

Boiler,

I was afraid to bring that change in my Active Home up since I feel that there is no connection and it would just point us in another direction. The reason I say that there is no connection is "why do the other 4 LM465's on the same code 7 that are not on those two circuits respond to the timed "ON" codes"? If they respond, then the command being sent out is not the problem, there is something else keeping those 3 LM465's from responding to "ON" codes"! Clarification....1 LM465 on code 7, 1 LM465 on code 15, 1 LM465 on code 14, which all three are on one leg of the wire (#12 3 wire running to the underground box) from its own circuit breaker and another non-timed LM465 code 4 on the other leg of the wire!

What I did in the absence of having any other components to work with right now was to address the issue of no load on those circuits when the timed "ON" code is sent. I took the wires in the circuit panel off of the breakers that feed them and moved them to another circuit breaker that has a load on them all the time. One circuit breaker has a good amount of electronics (DVR, Cable box, etc with probably at least a draw of 2-3 amps continously) and the other has a refrigerator on it. Now I am not sure if that will work since the wires going out to the underground box actually do not have the load on them! Probably need to have the load right there where the LM465's are? Well I did this yesterday and no change last night, the LM465's on that circuit did NOT repsond to the timed "ON" code, all others did and those LM465's did respond to the remote command.

Waiting for Jeff's Leviton 6299 to get here. Then I'll install that, dig up the underground box and put something there that will create a constant load.

Kinda getting used to the idea of a mechanical timer for those devices!

I also will try to change the devices in Active Home to Appliance Modules so to get rid of the idea that the "dimmed" command issue might be a contributing factor.

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on September 01, 2007, 07:47:54 AM
Well, I have some interesting news to report!

Yesterday, I changed all the module types in Active Home from LM465's to AM486's by deleting all of the old ones and recreating new ones that had exactly the same information in them as the old ones (i.e. timed events that either had fixed "ON/OFF" times or followed turn on time with dusk).

Well, my wife and I went out to a car show in the late afternoon and when we got home I was pleasantly surprised to see that the trouble circuit LM465 had gone on as well as all the other's (other LM465's on other electrical circuits) for code 7, driveway night lights! The flag pole light had not gone (code 15) as programmed! The pond pump (code 14) had shut off as programmed! It was late so all I did was to turn the flag pole light on via the hand held remote and forgot about the issue.

When I got up this morning, all the lights had turned off (off time is programmed for midnight) as programmed except the flag pole light. I turned it off manually via the hand held remote. The pond pump went on as programmed (6:00 a.m.) this morning!

When I checked Active Home I found why the flag pole was not working as expected, it still had the default device code of A1 in it. I must ave missed that yesterday and expect that to work now that I put the right code in for it.

Now this whole issue seems to revolve around the problem I had earlier this year and had to rebuild/reload my Active Home DB file. I still have some things to change back and verfiy that last night and this morning were not just flukes (let's make sure that this works for a few more days before I call it a done deal!). I need to move the electrical wires feeding the underground box back to their respective circuit breakers because they are still on the shared circuits breakers where they have a load on them.

If the issue is with the ActiveHome modules (LM465's versus AM486's), then why did the other LM465's with code 7 on other electrical circuits respond to the timed "ON" code when the one(s) in the underground box circuit(s) not respond to the timed "ON" code? This is where the problem analysis took a detour and I can not figure out why! Jeff, Boiler, and some of you others have more knowledge about the X10 concept and how the commands/modules work/respond than I will ever have, so maybe you can shed some light here!

My last question is about the Leviton repeater (6201) and the coupler I am waiting for (6299). I still have the repeater (6201) installed and when I get the coupler (6299), do you suggest that I remove the repeater and simply have the coupler in place, or should I have them both working together? Do they compliment one another or hinder one anothers operation in any way?

I will report back what happens over the day or two, but I am pretty confident that this problem is on its way out!

Still scratching my head about the code 7 with multiple LM465's responding/not responding, but am waiting for some feedback! :-)

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: JeffVolp on September 01, 2007, 09:59:17 AM
Quote
My last question is about the Leviton repeater (6201) and the coupler I am waiting for (6299). I still have the repeater (6201) installed and when I get the coupler (6299), do you suggest that I remove the repeater and simply have the coupler in place, or should I have them both working together? Do they compliment one another or hinder one anothers operation in any way?

Directly from the Leviton DHC Products Catalog:  "When used in the same DHC network as a 6201 System Amplifier, the 6299 Signal Bridge should NOT be in the same panel with the 6201."

While I haven't confirmed this myself, that may mean the 6201 drives both both legs "in-phase".  The 6299 I tested couples the signal "out-of-phase" when wired per the instructions.  That could cause the two units to fight one another.  There might also be some characteristic of the 6201 that causes a problem if it receives the same signal strength from both legs.

If your signals are boosted by a XTB near the distribution panel, you will get the strongest signals throughout the network by using the 6299 in place of the 6201.  It should still be possible to use both if the phase relationship is the same.  However, I recommend taking Leviton's advice and use just the 6299.

Jeff

Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on September 01, 2007, 10:40:12 AM
Directly from the Leviton DHC Products Catalog:  "When used in the same DHC network as a 6201 System Amplifier, the 6299 Signal Bridge should NOT be in the same panel with the 6201."

While I haven't confirmed this myself, that may mean the 6201 drives both both legs "in-phase".  The 6299 I tested couples the signal "out-of-phase" when wired per the instructions.  That could cause the two units to fight one another.  There might also be some characteristic of the 6201 that causes a problem if it receives the same signal strength from both legs.

If your signals are boosted by a XTB near the distribution panel, you will get the strongest signals throughout the network by using the 6299 in place of the 6201.  It should still be possible to use both if the phase relationship is the same.  However, I recommend taking Leviton's advice and use just the 6299.

Jeff



Jeff,

Thanks, just waiting on delivery of the 6299! When I receive it I'll remove the 6201 and install the 6299.

Let's keep our fingers crossed that this issue is RESOLVED!  :D

Bruce
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on September 01, 2007, 06:54:42 PM
Now this whole issue seems to revolve around the problem I had earlier this year and had to rebuild/reload my Active Home DB file. I still have some things to change back and verfiy that last night and this morning were not just flukes (let's make sure that this works for a few more days before I call it a done deal!). I need to move the electrical wires feeding the underground box back to their respective circuit breakers because they are still on the shared circuits breakers where they have a load on them.

If the issue is with the ActiveHome modules (LM465's versus AM486's), then why did the other LM465's with code 7 on other electrical circuits respond to the timed "ON" code when the one(s) in the underground box circuit(s) not respond to the timed "ON" code? This is where the problem analysis took a detour and I can not figure out why! Jeff, Boiler, and some of you others have more knowledge about the X10 concept and how the commands/modules work/respond than I will ever have, so maybe you can shed some light here!

Bruce,
What I suspect is happening is the following:

Have a look at the AchiveHome thread to see what options (preferences) are available. 

Boiler
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: BSarte on September 03, 2007, 08:06:35 AM
Bruce,
What I suspect is happening is the following:
  • When you have your modules defined as "dimable lamp modules" ActiveHome is actually sending out 10 Bright commands to achieve a 100% on level.
  • The concatenated bright commands are difficult for repeaters and may be causing problems with your Leviton active signal bridge.
  • When you changed the modules from "Dimmers" to appliance modules ActiveHome began sending simple ON/Off commands.  The Leviton repeater can handle these and things started working.
  • ActiveHome Pro (CM15a) has an option under Tools/Preferences/Macros to send a ON command in place of a 100% bright command.  I'm not sure whether ActiveHome (CM11a) has the same option.  If so, this may have been reset when you reloaded your system.

Have a look at the AchiveHome thread to see what options (preferences) are available. 

Boiler

Boiler,

I checked the communications log over the last two wereks or so when I was watching the commands and strength. Active Home was set for the LM465's at 100% strength and would send out only one command for the strength (100%), not 10 commadns at 10% each (I assume that is what you were saying?).

Anyway, I am happy right now, second day in a row that everything works fine, all lights, pond pump, etc go on/off when they are supposed to!

Thanks to all for your help, suggestions, and patience! Seems like this issue is all closed out except for returning the ELK-ESM1.

Bruce

:-)
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: Boiler on September 03, 2007, 01:27:05 PM
I checked the communications log over the last two wereks or so when I was watching the commands and strength. Active Home was set for the LM465's at 100% strength and would send out only one command for the strength (100%), not 10 commadns at 10% each (I assume that is what you were saying?).

Anyway, I am happy right now, second day in a row that everything works fine, all lights, pond pump, etc go on/off when they are supposed to!

If your activity log is showing a "Bright 100%" command, the CM11a is actually sending out 10 - 10% bright commands in rapid succession.  Here's how things appear in the activity monitor for my CM15a/ActiveHome Pro:

Macro option "Issue ON in place of Bight 100%" Disabled.
C1 - (addressing unit)
C1 100% - (sends 10 Bright commands to achieve 100% on)

Macro option "Issue ON in place of Bight 100%" Enabled.
C1 - (addressing unit)
C1 ON - (simple on command)

If you have access to your Leviton repeater you can verify this visually by watching the PILOT lamp.  The Bright command will produce rapid flashing over a ~ 2 second time frame.  The simple on command should only produce 2 flashes of the pilot lamp.

I still believe your problems revolve around a setting that changed when you reloaded ActiveHome (and possibly updated to a newer version?).

All of the above only applies if you're interested in finding out what changed.

Identifying the modules as AM486's should always work since the ActiveHome will only send simple ON/OFF commands to these units.

Happy to hear things are returning to some sense of normalcy.  It's been a bit of a long and winding road (Beatles - 1970).  Kudos for having the fortitude to stick this one out.

Boiler
Title: Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
Post by: HA Dave on September 03, 2007, 01:52:15 PM
Boiler.... even though I wasn't contributing to this thread I read (almost) every post. Reading your reply resolved an issue I was having. Thank-You ... I found this timely information HELPFUL.