Are there any new things added to the home, even something like a new cell phone charger. Anything that could effect powerline signals?
Also you may want to try the transceiver used for the remotes in the exact outlet the CM11A is in as a test.
Have you tried re-downloading to the CM11?
It is possible it "forgot" part of the MACRO.
...Recently one circuit (from the breaker box) which has three separate LM465's on it (two on one code and 1 for another) stopped going on via the timed schedule via the CM11A. When I use the handheld remote, they do go on just fine. They do go off via the scheduled time via the CM11A.
Other LM465's on other circuits receive the exact same "ON" code and turn on the other outdoor lights.
Can't firgure out what would keep this particular circuit from keeping "ON" codes to be not received by these 3 LM465's but allow it to receive "OFF" codes just fine?
I believe Brian hit the nail on the head - you have increased signal loading between your CM11a and your problem devices. Your hand held remote works because your transceiver (RR501, TM751) has a higher output level (although the CM11a is no slouch) or better path to this circuit. To test this, you could try plugging your CM11a into the transceiver location.
As far as the units not responding to an ON command - is it possible that you have more active devices on the line at dusk (on command) than are present at 11 pm (off command).
It is also possible that your X10 command is being "morphed" by the time it reaches your LM465's. At one time I had an installation with a RR501 transceiver on one phase and my son's bedroom switch (address A6) on another. I had a motion sensor set to trigger the hall lights on (address A8) delay for a minute and then turn them off. When the A8 off command was sent it would wrap through my active phase coupler and "morph" into a A6 off command (turned my sons bedroom lamp off). This occurred virtually every time the A8 off command was sent over a period of days. I installed a Smarthome Boosterlinc to rectify the problem.
Before adding hardware to "fix" your system try the following:
- Try shutting off breakers to determine where signal absorbers or noise generators are located - these can be filtered
- Try to determine what devices you have on the same branch as your LM465's - unplug any suspects (stereo, computer, TV) to troubleshoot
- Determine whether your CM11a is on the same phase as your problem units - try moving the CM11a around to see if you can correct the problem.
Depending on the size of your installation, your options include:
- Problem unit filtering
- Active coupler
- Repeater
The correct answer will depend on your home size, number of installed loads (tv's, computers, other), and whether you plan on expanding your X10 system in the future.
I installed the boosterlinc to correct the loading problem on one of my lines - loading was due to a number of X10 2-way devices that couldn't be filtered. Knowing what I do today, I would probably have opted for JeffVolp's XTB-II instead.
Almost forgot - any compact fluorescents installed recently?
The "on" signal that is lost is not just at one time. Let me explain a little deeper:
- the signals being lost are transmitted to several LM465's via two physical copper lines. I have two separate 20 amp circuit breakers in the main panel next to one another which each of these are therefore running on separate phases of the power but run to a an outdoor underground watertight box and lets call them circuits A and circuit B.
- on circuit A there are three distinctly different LM465's with separate device codes:
- code 14 for a pond pump which has an "on" code sent at 6 am and an off code sent at 6 pm. The "on"
code is not received, but the "off" code is.
- code 15 for a flag pole light which has an "on" code sent at dusk and an "off code sent at 11 pm. The "on"
code is not received, but the "off" code is.
- code 04 for some other lights that have no regular schedule signals sent.
- on circuit B there is one LM465:
- code 7 for driveway low voltage lights which are sent an "on" code at dusk and an "off" code at 11 pm.
There are 5 other LM465's around the house that have this same code and function fine, only this one
particular LM465 does not receive the "on" code does receive the "off" code.
- on circuit B there is one LM465:
- code 7 for driveway low voltage lights which are sent an "on" code at dusk and an "off" code at 11 pm.
There are 5 other LM465's around the house that have this same code and function fine, only this one
particular LM465 does not receive the "on" code does receive the "off" code.
Use Activity Monitor (I think AH has one) to determine what Is happening during your timed ON commands. Is there unexplained activity or a high level of activity at this time?
Trying to not spend any $$ on this. This is why I am posting here to keep from getting any more "specialized" tools!
I think it is time to dig up the underground box, clean up the contact's (probably do the same in the circuit panel), put some new LM465's in it, and see what happens!
Won't be this weekend, but hopefully next weekend or maybe some day during the week. I'll check in later to see if there are any new posts/ideas , but will post theresult of my cleanup after I get it done.
Thanks guys for your input. Like my brother-in-law says......GOTTA LUV IT!
Glad the LM465s work with your transformers. They don't always work correctly.
Wonder if anyone has tried the new Soft Start versions yet with transformers?
One of the other LM465's controlling the same code (07) is at a much longer distance from the circuit panel at about 250', but these two circuits that have the underground box is about 125' from the circuit panel, so I don't think it is a distance issue!
I'm not a trained electrical guy, but here's what I found when using X10 to control outdoor things like pumps and (especially) low-voltage transformers. I put an X10 filter in between the X10 switch (like an AM466) and the transformer or pump. Physically, the layout is like this: electric outlet > X10 unit (AM466) > X10 filter > transformer. Note that if you were to put the filter in front of the X10 switch the filter will block the signal! :P
Once I did this on all my devices, problems cleared up. I also aggressively use the X10 filters on all TVs, computers (yes, laptops too), cable boxes and routers. This definitely has helped with the range of getting signals to all of my X10 stuff. Check my other posts, as I also did the range extension on my CM15A. I buy the strongest X10 signal filters and put them in front of power strips so I can filter two or three devices with one filter. As someone mentioned earlier, use an ESM tester to check signal strength and identify sources of "noise" or "signal sinks."
Definitely has made my system bullet-proof and elevated the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).
Good luck! robster ;)
As noted above, ELK ESM1, under $100, is the signal tester. I'll have to check for names on the filters, or you could do a site search here. They're around $25 each if I remember correctly. I found a guy who did a deal if I bought half a dozen. Finally, definitely do the range extension mod as that had the biggest impact of all for me.
If you take the time to methodically eliminate X10 signal suckers/noise and get the range for signals, the X10 stuff works very well.
Good luck! robster
...I got the impression that the suggested way to use each of these filters is one between the outlet and the X10 device/module?
This would cost a small fortune as far as I am concerned! I would need about 20 filters.
Anyway....my post this time is to ask about the CM11A's. Anyway you can boost the signal from one? Are there different brand or model CM11A' that have a stronger signal?
...Well, unfortunately, nothing got any better. All three units codes (7, 14, & 15) do not respond to "on" codes but do respond to "off" codes.
Last night I sent commands from Home Control through thre CM11a and they work just fine as do the commands from the handheld remote...
...Well, unfortunately, nothing got any better. All three units codes (7, 14, & 15) do not respond to "on" codes but do respond to "off" codes.
Last night I sent commands from Home Control through thre CM11a and they work just fine as do the commands from the handheld remote...
I'm assuming you send the CM11a commands at ~ the same time that your timer would have sent them. You basically established that the CM11a can drive the "ON" commands manually.
Are you using a "Macro" to initiate the commands or a "timer" function? If you're using a macro, try inserting delays (2 sec) between the on commands.
On your very first post you mentioned a phase coupler - could you post the model (active/passive)?
As far as suggestions are concerned: If you are dead set on replacing the CM11a, you could try purchasing at AutomatedOutlet. This should allow you to get one of their "Loaner" ELK-ESM1 units for troubleshooting. I don't know how their prices compare with others nor have I made use of the "loaner". Just a thought.
...Many people are using the XTB (Powerline Control Reliability (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?board=102.0)) to boost the output of their CM11A....I'm one of those "many people" that highly recommend it.
Why would the module respond to the "on" command executed from Active Home through the CM11A and not the programmed one?
...Many people are using the XTB (Powerline Control Reliability (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?board=102.0)) to boost the output of their CM11A....I'm one of those "many people" that highly recommend it.
To answer some of your questions:
- all automated commands coming from the CM11A are "timed' functions, not macros. As of last week, the timed commands are staggered slightly (by 10-15 minutes) so that they do not "collide" and possibly confuse the X10 module(s).
- not sure what the phase coupler is, passsive or active. Been a few years since I installed it so I'll have to pull the circuit panel cover off to check. Why would either active or passive have any issue with this situation? ???
Why should I get a tester when I can transmit the "on" commands to the X10 modules manually through the CM11A from Active Home and they work just fine? Does that not prove that the CM11A "on" commands can be seen just fine? What is the difference between the manually sent commands and the automated ones? Should be no difference.
I have 4 X10 modules with the same unit code, 07, placed in different locations around the house. Only one on that particular electrical circuit does not get the "on" commands. What is different about "on" commands from "off" commands since this same module receives the automated/programmed "on" command and does not respond to the "on" command? Why would the module respond to the "on" command executed from Acitve Home through the CM11A and not the progammed one?
It is Jeffs device.
http://jvde.us/x10/x10_xtb.htm
Since the XTB is not UL approved, who has these installed and what issues do they have?...No problems at all. I believe it could easily meet UL standards but as I understand the cost to get it approved would be prohibitive.
...I read the description of both the XTB and XTB-II. The basic difference is the XTB is for plugging into a 120VAC outlet for a house that has a passive phase coupler installed and the XTB-II is for connection between the 2 - 120VAC phases in a home?...I think there is a slight advantage of the XTB-II over using a coupler and the XTB but if you already have a good coupler just get the XTB. I already had a coupler so that's what I did.
...I am also going to get the tester (ELK-ESM1) from Automated Outlet. Seems like even if I install the XTB, I could still run into a noise issue that the XTB might not overcome, then I would still need to figure out where the noise is coming from......You'll find the tester to useful and fun to use.
No problems at all. I believe it could easily meet UL standards but as I understand the cost to get it approved would be prohibitive.
I think there is a slight advantage of the XTB-II over using a coupler and the XTB but if you already have a good coupler just get the XTB.
I am also going to get the tester (ELK-ESM1) from Automated Outlet. Seems like even if I install the XTB, I could still run into a noise issue that the XTB might not overcome, then I would still need to figure out where the noise is coming from.
I have had an installation at my home for over 8 years. One of the things I control is outdoor lights with many LM465's across several legs/phases of power lines. I have a phase coupler installed and these have worked very nicely for several years.
I went back and scanned this entire thread. It stared with:QuoteI have had an installation at my home for over 8 years. One of the things I control is outdoor lights with many LM465's across several legs/phases of power lines. I have a phase coupler installed and these have worked very nicely for several years.
The XTB will drive a much stronger signal on the phase it is plugged into. However, a good tuned-circuit passive coupler must be installed near the main distribution panel to propagate that strong signal over to the opposite phase. I am also puzzled by "across several legs/phases of power lines". Most North American residences have a 120V/240V split-phase distribution system. So there would only be two legs. If there are multiple distribution panels with independent feeds from the street, a more complex coupling scheme may be necessary.
Since merely plugging in the XTB didn't solve the problem, would you please supply more information:
1) Could you elaborate on your electrical distribution system. (number of phases, legs, panels)
2) Can you identify whether your CM11A/XTB combo is on a different phase from the "problem" circuit?
3) Can you identify whether your RR501 on the same phase as the "problem" circuit?
4) Are there any compact fluorescent light bulbs anywhere in the installation?
5) What type of phase coupler do you use? (Manufacturer, part #)
6) Does a manual command from the CM11A/XTB combo exhibit the same problem?
Jeff
Pulled the cover off the large circuit breaker panel. The phase coupler is a Leviton 6201/120 Coupler/Repeater.Ah! That is what I suspected. That is not a passive coupler, but the original Leviton repeater. It is a fine unit - we used one at our last house - but it will not couple the strong XTB signal to the second phase.
1. Not sure I understand why the Leviton Repeater will not "couple the strong XTB signal to the second phase". Isn't that what it is supposed to do?
2. Can you help me understand the "macro" thing? I have built some in the past but they really do not work right and when you say "recognize a signal from the RR501", that really looses me!
I don't want the CM11A that far away from my PC right now because interfacing with it is a real pain.
I just don't understand why the difference? I would think that I would see all the X10 commands or none, but not specific commands such as TIMED "ON" codes because the manually sent "ON" codes from the CM11A are responded to.
Quote2. Can you help me understand the "macro" thing? I have built some in the past but they really do not work right and when you say "recognize a signal from the RR501", that really looses me!
Think of a macro as a "mini program" that is initiated by some event. For example:
If receive A1 ON then delay 5 sec and then transmit A2 ON.
I haven't used the CM11A in years, but I recall they were built graphically.
I just don't understand why the difference? I would think that I would see all the X10 commands or none, but not specific commands such as TIMED "ON" codes because the manually sent "ON" codes from the CM11A are responded to.
I also have a detached garage that has #2 wire running from the house circuit panel back to another circuit panel in it. The distance is minimum of 375' from one panel to the other. I put the ELK-ESM1 in an outlet in the detached garage today and had my wife use the handheld remote to send commands through the RR501 up at the house. The signal is 2 bars on the scale which would translate to about .5 volts. A little low but it is enough to control a Leviton Wall Switch (same at the WS467), so it looks like there is plenty of signal going quit a distance around here! The X10 green light also light, so I guess we can say the command is formatted correctly as well.
Another thought on the manual on vs timed on events - I've noticed in the past that the CM15a produces "malformed" power line commands when using timed events and macro's. When manually activating (graphic control) the commands are clean.
The following is what my testerlinc reports for a simple macro executed On command:
Macro E6 On
E6
BCY (bad 3 cycle gap)
E6 On
The above doesn't appear to affect my modules (they all respond). I'm wondering whether it may further complicate things in a noisy or low signal environment.
Oldtimers, any theories out there?
Bruce,
I think I remember seeing posts complaining about the same "malformed" transmissions with the CM11a. My CM11a has been stored for about 4 years now. Maybe someone else can verify this?
At this point this is just an observation. I can't think of anything that a "bad 3 cycle gap" would do to affect the turn on of a receiver. Let's table this one for the moment (probably shouldn't have brought it up - it's a distraction).
Here's a better scenario -
- With your "problem" LM465 off you have a long weekly terminated transmission line with a fair amount of X10 signal loss. Under these conditions your LM465 can't reliably detect the ON command.
- When you do manage to activate the LM465 your line becomes terminated through the load resistance. Your LM465 is now able to reliably detect the OFF commands
- Your RF commands work reliably because your RR501 has a higher output level than your CM11a
- Your manual CM11a commands work because?? This is where I was theorizing about the "malformed" timer commands
If you wanted to test the above, you could plug another load into your underground box. Your LM465 should turn on reliably with the second load activated. This obviously won't solve anything. But it may allow you to sleep better knowing it's not all smoke and mirrors.
This is an intriguing problem - please keep posting your results.
When I tested the signal format & levels, there was the transformer for the ELK-ESM1 installed which I would assume should be enough load?
Since I am using the white wire as a common between the two circuits, could the X10 commands be "colliding" and canceling each other?
All of the above tests were done without the XTB in place. One other test I did was to put the XTB in place in front of the CM11A and test the signal levels. One side of the duplex outlet showed a very marginal increase in signal level, maybe up to 1.4-1.5 volts.
Since you don't have a good passive coupler, this is exactly what I would expect. The signal on that phase is coming from your Leviton repeater, not the XTB. I'm starting to wonder whether the repeater might be part of this mix too...
Regarding possible "malformed commands" coming from the CM11A, I don't understand why some modules respond to those and some do not. I recall your saying you had several modules set to the same codes, and only those in that underground box did not work. The others responded to the CM11A timed events properly. Would you confirm this is true?
I can't check out the CM11A because my computers are all running XP now, and none of them will recognize the CM11A through the serial port.
...One thing I noticed was that the simple command via the RR501 appeared to be different. The signal bar showed several ( 3-4) pegs about 1/2 second apart while the macro commands only showed two very quick pegs to the signal level.
OK, time to consider getting a new 'passive' coupler. What should I consider?
OK, time to consider getting a new 'passive' coupler. What should I consider?
Today, I got everything together to install it. I installed it very carefully as always, understanding and following the instructions. I used a 2 foot long tail piece of #12 3 wire with ground to connect the XPCP up to two circuit breakers, using the red/black for connection to the L1/L2 poles on the XPCP to the two differing circuit breakers on each phase of the panel and the ground/white for the N's to the common in the circuit panel. Unfortunately, when I turned on the first breaker, the XPCP shorted out violently.
That wiring sounds correct, except that my unit has two black and two white wires. Internally there is complete transformer isolation between input and output. And both hot leads are capacitor isolated. There is a surge protector from each hot lead to neutral, so the only path capable of carrying current is through the surge protectors. It would be interesting to get an ohmic reading between the red and black leads, and then from red and black to both whites. All paths should have high resistance.
I believe the Leviton 6299 is identical to the older XPCP. One thing to remember is that the older XPCP drives the 120KHz signal to both legs out of phase. So a 240V load in parallel will load down the coupler. The phase can be flipped by reversing the white/black on one side. The newer "Decora" XPCP drives the legs in phase when wired per the diagram.
Jeff
I must have gotten one of the newer Decora style XPCP's. It does not have any wires coming out of it, 8 lugs on the back which have decal running up the side to label which lug is for what, L1,N,N,L2. Each of them having the capability of having two wires connected to each thus 8 holes.
Bruce,
From your previous description, I believe your LM465's are "older" units.
None the less, have a look at the following thread that deals with timers and "newer" X10 switches (there is a new version LM465):
WS465 Timed Commands: Real Head Scratcher (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13251.new#new)
The thread refers to a new WS467 that will not activate with a Timed ON command.
Active Home Pro, has an option for sending an "ON" command instead of a "Bright 100%" command. I'm not sure if the CM11a/Active home have the same options.
Boiler
I also realized that this problem seemed to start just after I had a problem on my PC. Lost everything to a hard drive crash back in February of this year. Had to rebuild everything and the ActiveHome DB file was one of these things and I reloaded the CM11A about the same time this whole thing started.
From the above, it seems possible that some of the "options" changed in ActiveHome when you reloaded. Charles Sullivan recently pointed out that ActiveHome Pro has an option that will send a ON command in place of a DIM 100% command.
I don't know if ActiveHome/CM11a has a similar option, but this could definately produce different results.
If you would like to try "forcing" ON/OFF commands (instead of bright/dim commands) you could change your device type to an Appliance Module. ActiveHome will only send ON/OFF commands to these modules since they do not support dimming.
If you suspect that your indoor LM465's are a newer version, I would not move this into your outdoor box. You may create new problems.
As far as we know, the new modules began shipping this year (07Dxx date code).
Charles had a nice writeup on the new features here: New_LM465 (http://www.heyu.org/docs/New_LM465.txt)
My last question is about the Leviton repeater (6201) and the coupler I am waiting for (6299). I still have the repeater (6201) installed and when I get the coupler (6299), do you suggest that I remove the repeater and simply have the coupler in place, or should I have them both working together? Do they compliment one another or hinder one anothers operation in any way?
Directly from the Leviton DHC Products Catalog: "When used in the same DHC network as a 6201 System Amplifier, the 6299 Signal Bridge should NOT be in the same panel with the 6201."
While I haven't confirmed this myself, that may mean the 6201 drives both both legs "in-phase". The 6299 I tested couples the signal "out-of-phase" when wired per the instructions. That could cause the two units to fight one another. There might also be some characteristic of the 6201 that causes a problem if it receives the same signal strength from both legs.
If your signals are boosted by a XTB near the distribution panel, you will get the strongest signals throughout the network by using the 6299 in place of the 6201. It should still be possible to use both if the phase relationship is the same. However, I recommend taking Leviton's advice and use just the 6299.
Jeff
Now this whole issue seems to revolve around the problem I had earlier this year and had to rebuild/reload my Active Home DB file. I still have some things to change back and verfiy that last night and this morning were not just flukes (let's make sure that this works for a few more days before I call it a done deal!). I need to move the electrical wires feeding the underground box back to their respective circuit breakers because they are still on the shared circuits breakers where they have a load on them.
If the issue is with the ActiveHome modules (LM465's versus AM486's), then why did the other LM465's with code 7 on other electrical circuits respond to the timed "ON" code when the one(s) in the underground box circuit(s) not respond to the timed "ON" code? This is where the problem analysis took a detour and I can not figure out why! Jeff, Boiler, and some of you others have more knowledge about the X10 concept and how the commands/modules work/respond than I will ever have, so maybe you can shed some light here!
Bruce,
What I suspect is happening is the following:
- When you have your modules defined as "dimable lamp modules" ActiveHome is actually sending out 10 Bright commands to achieve a 100% on level.
- The concatenated bright commands are difficult for repeaters and may be causing problems with your Leviton active signal bridge.
- When you changed the modules from "Dimmers" to appliance modules ActiveHome began sending simple ON/Off commands. The Leviton repeater can handle these and things started working.
- ActiveHome Pro (CM15a) has an option under Tools/Preferences/Macros to send a ON command in place of a 100% bright command. I'm not sure whether ActiveHome (CM11a) has the same option. If so, this may have been reset when you reloaded your system.
Have a look at the AchiveHome thread to see what options (preferences) are available.
Boiler
I checked the communications log over the last two wereks or so when I was watching the commands and strength. Active Home was set for the LM465's at 100% strength and would send out only one command for the strength (100%), not 10 commadns at 10% each (I assume that is what you were saying?).
Anyway, I am happy right now, second day in a row that everything works fine, all lights, pond pump, etc go on/off when they are supposed to!