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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: chewie8han on August 01, 2007, 03:25:44 PM

Title: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 01, 2007, 03:25:44 PM
I recently purchased a couple of the X10 Pro switches, XPD3-IW and XPSS-IW for both single and 3-way use.  I have been able to wire a standard overhead light with both the 3 way and the single switch wiring.  However, I was wondering if it is possible to use these switches for outlets that have 1 outlet controlled by the switch (for incandescent lamps) and one outlet that is always on.  Will this scenario blow the switch, or is it able to handle the always on outlet?  If it can not, which switch (decorator style) would you recommend?

Also, as a side note, is it normal for these to make a buzzing sound?  Is that a bad thing?

Thanks,
Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: Brian H on August 01, 2007, 04:14:49 PM
Most outlets have a break away tab between the top and bottom outlet on the line side. So in theory you could wire one to line all the time and the other to the load side of the switch. Leaving the neutral bar between the outlets intact.
That said. You would have to be careful to not get a load; that does not work properly with a dimmer; in the wrong outlet.

Can't say about that model switch, but I have seen some buzz. Most have a coil in them that sometimes is not wound tightly and buzzes.
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 01, 2007, 04:30:27 PM
I am not very electrically savvy (my father is, but he's not X10 savvy at all).  I currently have an outlet that the top outlet is controlled by the switch and the bottom one is always hot.  I was hoping that I could somehow use these XPD3-IW switches (and if not the XPD3-IW, which one) to continue to control the outlet the same way (one switched, one always on) but add X10 to the light that the switch is controlling.

So I don't think I should have to do anything with the outlet itself, correct?  I'm more worried about blowing the switch by plugging in anything else into the bottom (always on) outlet.

Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: Walt2 on August 01, 2007, 05:53:50 PM
Quote from: chewie8han on August 01, 2007, 04:30:27 PM
So I don't think I should have to do anything with the outlet itself, correct?  I'm more worried about blowing the switch by plugging in anything else into the bottom (always on) outlet.

If I am reading your description correctly, the constant-on outlet has no power routed thru the X10 switch.  Therefore, nothing that is plugged into that constant-on outlet could affect the X10 switch.

However, as already mentioned, one has to be extremely careful about what one plugs into the switched outlet since that does go thru the X10 switch.  While you might, today, only plan on plugging in an incandescent bulb, there is no protection at all if you, or anyone else (spouse, guest, etc), ever plugs something else in.  Even an innocent change from an incandescent bulb to a compact fluorescent might cause major damage to the X10 switch.
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 01, 2007, 08:32:45 PM
Walt,
So if I'm reading your response correctly, I should be more worried about someone mistakenly plugging something into the X10 controlled outlet than anything plugged into the always on outlet.  I wasn't sure because I think that the always on outlet does pass through the switch (any electrician might correct me).

Has anyone used these switches before?

Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 01, 2007, 10:00:23 PM
Quote from: chewie8han on August 01, 2007, 08:32:45 PM
Walt,
So if I'm reading your response correctly, I should be more worried about someone mistakenly plugging something into the X10 controlled outlet than anything plugged into the always on outlet.  I wasn't sure because I think that the always on outlet does pass through the switch (any electrician might correct me).

Has anyone used these switches before?

Kevin

If current to the always on half of the outlet passed through the switch, it would be controlled by the switch and would not be "always on".   ;)

That said, using a dimming X10 switch to control the other half of the outlet could be BAD for a number of reasons.  For instance what happens if someone plugs a vaccuum cleaner into the switch controlled outlet?  If the switch is in "full on" mode (i.e. not dimmed) it still might be blown by the high current required by the vaccuum cleaner.  Almost any other appliance or AC (wall wart) adapter, etc. would not like it if the wall switch was "dimming".   :o

Please explain a little more about how you would like this setup to work:   ???

We'll sort it out!   ;D
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: Oldtimer on August 01, 2007, 10:56:10 PM
Quote from: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 01, 2007, 10:00:23 PM

For instance what happens if someone plugs a vacuum cleaner into the switch controlled outlet?  If the switch is in "full on" mode (i.e. not dimmed) it still might be blown by the high current required by the vacuum cleaner.  Almost any other appliance or AC (wall wart) adapter, etc. would not like it if the wall switch was "dimming".   :o


There are several outlets in our house where this is a problem.  My wife knows to be careful but other family members who only visit on occasion aren't.  What I did was to get a package of molded plastic dummy "kid protection" plugs and put them into the half of the outlets controlled by the X10 switches.  So far this has successfully kept vacuum cleaners, irons, etc. from being plugged into them and burning out the X10 switch.
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: JeffVolp on August 02, 2007, 12:31:57 AM
The electrical code does not allow using dimmer switches to control receptacles due to the obvious safety issue:

404.14(E) Dimmer Switches. General use dimmer switches shall be used only to control permanently installed incandescent luminaries (lighting fixtures) unless listed for the control of other loads and installed accordingly.

Jeff
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 02, 2007, 08:21:51 AM
Quote from: JeffVolp on August 02, 2007, 12:31:57 AM
The electrical code does not allow using dimmer switches to control receptacles due to the obvious safety issue:

Jeff, is this true for everywhere or just your location?


Quote from: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 01, 2007, 10:00:23 PM

Please explain a little more about how you would like this setup to work:   ???
  • Do you want to continue to be able to use the switch to control the lamp?
  • Do you want dimming control of the llamp?
  • Do you want X10 remote control of the lamp?
  • Any other expectations?

We'll sort it out!   ;D

Bill,
I have a switch that controls the top outlet of a receptacle that always has an incandescent lamp plugged into it.  I would like to continue to use the switch to control the lamp. I would like to have dimmer control of it, because it is in the entertainment room.  I would also like to control it with X10 remotes and use it with macros.  It is controlled by a single switch (it is not a 3-way).  The items that I currently have that can be used (I'm willing to buy other ones as long as they're reasonably priced) are: XPD3-IW, XPSS-IW, LM465(lamp module), LM15A(socket rocket), AM466(3 pin appliance), AM486(2-pin appliance), and a PLM01(Pro Lamp module).

I think I might be able to just use a standard lamp module, but I was trying to streamline this into the switch.  Plus the lamp modules block off the lower outlet.

Thanks,
Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: Walt2 on August 02, 2007, 08:45:44 AM
Borrowing from what I just learned myself from another thread, how about replacing the wall switch with a single decora style controller, HCC10-1TW ? ? ?  That would give you local switch-like control of an X10 module.

I would wire the outlet so that both top and bottom are always 'on'.  This would be code compliant, and have no worries about anyone ever plugging in something they shouldn't.

Then use a lamp module, plugged into the bottom outlet, to control your lamp.  I would suggest either a LM14A or a new LM465, to get that "nice" soft-start feature. 

The HCC10-1TW could then turn the lamp module 'on' or 'off' locally, plus you would still have full remote X10 control over it.

Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 02, 2007, 09:49:56 AM
Wow $80 for a wall switch?  I definitely can't justify that.  Plus I'd have to use a Lamp module in addition?  Also, how does that switch work if it's not controlling the outlet at all (you said they'd be always on).  What is the switch wired to if it's not wired to the outlet anymore?

Quote from: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 01, 2007, 10:00:23 PM
If current to the always on half of the outlet passed through the switch, it would be controlled by the switch and would not be "always on".   ;)

Bill, This is what I would think too, but if that's the case, I don't know what the other wires to the switch would be for.  I'd have to look again tonight, but if I'm remembering properly, I have 2 red wires and 2 black wires running to the switch.  I'm positive that this switch doesn't control anything else, so what would the other 2 wires be for?

Thanks,
Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: Walt2 on August 02, 2007, 10:38:27 AM
Quote from: chewie8han on August 02, 2007, 09:49:56 AM
Wow $80 for a wall switch?  I definitely can't justify that.  Plus I'd have to use a Lamp module in addition?  Also, how does that switch work if it's not controlling the outlet at all (you said they'd be always on).  What is the switch wired to if it's not wired to the outlet anymore?

Well, $80 full retail.  About $30 if you shop around.  :D

Yea, it looks like a plain old decora wall switch.  However, it doesn't, itself, turn power 'on' or 'off'.  It only sends out standard X10 powerline commands.  This way, actually, it can control an X10 module located anywhere in the room (or other room for that matter).   I plan on using them, just for that.  To be able to control a lamp that is on the completely other side of the room. 

Originally, my wall switch controlled an outlet right next to the wall switch.  That is kind of like gluing one's TV remote onto the TV itself.  It isn't of much convenience.

Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: JeffVolp on August 02, 2007, 11:49:48 AM
Quote
"The electrical code does not allow using dimmer switches to control receptacles due to the obvious safety issue:"

Jeff, is this true for everywhere or just your location?

That quote was from the 2002 National Electrical Code.  The NEC is pretty much the standard used by building codes throughout the country.  However, there may still be areas where there are no formal building codes.

Jeff
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: KDR on August 02, 2007, 03:07:19 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp on August 02, 2007, 11:49:48 AM
Quote
"The electrical code does not allow using dimmer switches to control receptacles due to the obvious safety issue:"

Jeff, is this true for everywhere or just your location?

That quote was from the 2002 National Electrical Code.  The NEC is pretty much the standard used by building codes throughout the country.  However, there may still be areas where there are no formal building codes.

Jeff

Also keep in mind that the National Electrical Code is the overall standard and many local building codes add to that or modify the standards for their locality. I once did some wiring that passed the National code but was not allowed in that municipality. I have also had to meet some local standards that didn't agree with NEC.  ???

Walt2 has a great idea to solve your problem. The switch will send out the House/Unit code that you set it to, to match any Lamp or Appliance module plugged in anywhere basically. (Baring any phase problems) This way if you want 2 lights to come on all you have to do is set 2 lamp modules to the same House/Unit codes.
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 02, 2007, 03:18:53 PM
Walt,
How would I have to rewire everything to get this working?  Would I be able to use existing wiring (my hope) or would I have to rewire everything? 


Bill,
Do you have any other suggestions?

Thanks,
Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: JeffVolp on August 02, 2007, 03:40:12 PM
Quote
Originally, my wall switch controlled an outlet right next to the wall switch.  That is kind of like gluing one's TV remote onto the TV itself.  It isn't of much convenience.

They do it that way because it is easy and meets code.  In the bedrooms I wired myself, the light switch controls the bottom half of 3 receptacles spread throughout the room.  Those receptacles are identified with a little gold dot.

Jeff
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 02, 2007, 04:01:13 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp on August 02, 2007, 03:40:12 PM
Quote
Originally, my wall switch controlled an outlet right next to the wall switch.  That is kind of like gluing one's TV remote onto the TV itself.  It isn't of much convenience.

They do it that way because it is easy and meets code.  In the bedrooms I wired myself, the light switch controls the bottom half of 3 receptacles spread throughout the room.  Those receptacles are identified with a little gold dot.

Jeff

At least you have switches that control outlets.  When I walk into my house, my entire living room has no switchable lighting.  That's one reason that I got X10 in the first place.  Now I have a couple of the slimline wall switches and they work wonderfully.

Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: Walt2 on August 02, 2007, 05:14:10 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp on August 02, 2007, 03:40:12 PM
They do it that way because it is easy and meets code.  In the bedrooms I wired myself, the light switch controls the bottom half of 3 receptacles spread throughout the room.  Those receptacles are identified with a little gold dot.

No, you misunderstood. 

My wall switch controls one and only one outlet.  That outlet is the outlet just below the wall switch. 

I don't think that codes require that. 
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: KDR on August 02, 2007, 05:40:37 PM
chewie8han  

In order to steer you in the right direction as far as options go we need to know what wiring is in your switch's work box. Can you tell us how many wires are running into it? If you only have one romex wire, (1 black, 1 white and a bare ground) then at this point you probably don't have a neutral wire in there the way its wired. If you tell me whats in the switch box and the outlet box I can draw up a print of what you have.

I didn't look yet to see if the X10 switches you listed as maybe wanting to use needs a neutral but most of them do. Now this is not to say that the setup can't be rewired to provide a neutral but in order to tell you how we will need to know about the wires going into the boxes.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: Walt2 on August 02, 2007, 06:40:03 PM
That is the main reason I suggested using the HCC10-1TW.   While it requires a neutral, it only requires two wires, hot and neutral.   

For switch boxes that have only two wires, it should be an easy re-wire in the outlet box, changing those two wires from being hot and hot-switched, to being hot and neutral.

For most DIY's, simply changing how the wires are connected, is much easier than running new or additional wires.  It is for me.
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: KDR on August 02, 2007, 08:08:57 PM
I agree Walt2 and your idea will offer the biggest options for him. You could put a module in every room to work off that switch.  ;D

The one thing you might run into is that if the outlet is in the middle of a run there could be 3 romex wires in the outlet box. The small brass jumper on the hot side of the outlet has been removed and to power up both top and bottom you will need to add a jumper back on it. Might be a bit crowded in the box. If that's the case you could always just pick up a new outlet and replace it.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: JeffVolp on August 03, 2007, 12:25:38 AM
Quote
My wall switch controls one and only one outlet.  That outlet is the outlet just below the wall switch. 

I don't think that codes require that.

NEC 210.70:  "Habitable Rooms.  At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

Exception No. 1:  In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets."

A "lighting outlet" would normally be some sort of ceiling light.  That is obviously more expensive than just running a piece of 14-2 to the nearest receptacle.  Lets face it, unless they are building upscale housing, builders won't put in anything that is not necessary.  A switch-controlled receptacle near the door is the cheapest way to meet code.

Taking that NEC requirement literally, it would mean that using the HCC10-1TW transmitter would require at least one SR227 X10 receptacle (or equivalent) or a X10 controlled ceiling light to be in the room.  I doubt that an inspector would accept a plug-in module for the required switch-controlled light.

Jeff
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 03, 2007, 12:42:27 AM
Quote from: chewie8han on August 02, 2007, 09:49:56 AM
Wow $80 for a wall switch?  I definitely can't justify that.  Plus I'd have to use a Lamp module in addition?  Also, how does that switch work if it's not controlling the outlet at all (you said they'd be always on).  What is the switch wired to if it's not wired to the outlet anymore?

Quote from: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 01, 2007, 10:00:23 PM
If current to the always on half of the outlet passed through the switch, it would be controlled by the switch and would not be "always on".   ;)

Bill, This is what I would think too, but if that's the case, I don't know what the other wires to the switch would be for.  I'd have to look again tonight, but if I'm remembering properly, I have 2 red wires and 2 black wires running to the switch.  I'm positive that this switch doesn't control anything else, so what would the other 2 wires be for?

Thanks,
Kevin

Yes, please double-check that wiring, as it doesn't make much sense if the switch definitely only controls one outlet.

The two black wires could be accounted for if one supplies Hot to the switch and the other is bridging that Hot over to another switch or maybe even the "always on" socket in the outlet.  As for two red wires on the other side of the switch, the only way that would make sense is if the switch is actually controlling more than one outlet or maybe the outlet and a light fixture or something.   ???
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 03, 2007, 07:42:16 AM
Here's what I found for my wiring.  Please note that this house is about 50 years old, so it might not use standard colors.

(http://www.hasphar.net/images/all/outlet%20wiring.jpg)


Hopefully, someone here can have a clue as to what's going on here.
Thanks,
Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 03, 2007, 08:13:27 PM
Quote from: chewie8han on August 03, 2007, 07:42:16 AM
Here's what I found for my wiring.  Please note that this house is about 50 years old, so it might not use standard colors.

(http://www.hasphar.net/images/all/outlet%20wiring.jpg)


Hopefully, someone here can have a clue as to what's going on here.
Thanks,
Kevin

Looks to me like any X10 dimmer switch that does not require a neutral connection should work.  Just connect both blacks to the Hot on the switch and connect the red to the Load side of the switch.
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 03, 2007, 09:50:46 PM
Quote from: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 03, 2007, 08:13:27 PM
Looks to me like any X10 dimmer switch that does not require a neutral connection should work.  Just connect both blacks to the Hot on the switch and connect the red to the Load side of the switch.

Bill, if that's the case, then the XPD3-IW should work, correct?  I don't believe it needs a neutral wire at all.

Thanks,
Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 03, 2007, 10:53:46 PM
Quote from: chewie8han on August 03, 2007, 09:50:46 PM
Quote from: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 03, 2007, 08:13:27 PM
Looks to me like any X10 dimmer switch that does not require a neutral connection should work.  Just connect both blacks to the Hot on the switch and connect the red to the Load side of the switch.

Bill, if that's the case, then the XPD3-IW should work, correct?  I don't believe it needs a neutral wire at all.

Thanks,
Kevin

Could be.  I am not familiar with the XPD3-IW myself.
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 06, 2007, 12:00:55 PM
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that helped.  I installed the XPD3-IW this weekend.  It works like a champ.  Switch controls the top outlet and I've tried plugging in various other things in the bottom outlet without any problems what so ever.

Now, if I could just figure out the rest of my weird wiring.  I have 2 3-way switches that are wired the same way (as each other), but I have 3 other ones that aren't wired like anything else. 

Anyway, Thanks Again!!!!

Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: JeffVolp on August 06, 2007, 12:33:22 PM
Quote
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that helped.  I installed the XPD3-IW this weekend.  It works like a champ.  Switch controls the top outlet and I've tried plugging in various other things in the bottom outlet without any problems what so ever.

Great that solved your problem.  Just remember that it doesn't meet code.  And be careful never to accidentally plug something like a vacuum cleaner into the top outlet.

Jeff
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: chewie8han on August 06, 2007, 12:53:44 PM
Yeah, I know it doesn't meet code, but if/when I go to sell the house, I'm taking my X10 stuff with me (unless the new people REALLY want it).  My wife knows to never plug anything into that outlet besides the lamp.  Plus there's plenty of other outlets in that room.

Kevin
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: Walt2 on August 06, 2007, 02:23:40 PM
Quote from: chewie8han on August 06, 2007, 12:53:44 PM
Yeah, I know it doesn't meet code, but if/when I go to sell the house, I'm taking my X10 stuff with me (unless the new people REALLY want it).  My wife knows to never plug anything into that outlet besides the lamp.  Plus there's plenty of other outlets in that room.

Just also be aware that if the worse happens, and the insurance company feels that any electrical code violation had even an indirect contribution, your homeowner's insurance can/will be voided out.

That, more than anything else, keeps all my home wiring DIY jobs, to always be "to code".
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: gil shultz on August 07, 2007, 09:12:37 PM
Good Evening,

Simply replace the switch with a dimmer switch. Some places this is allowed in others it is not.  It also could be considered an improper repair as you normally do not have to get a permit to change a switch. 

Triacs make either good fuses or are on all the time when they fail.  Make the assumption that if somebody plugs something in that they shouldn’t you get to replace the dimmer.  You might want to buy a few spares.  If the dimmer fails shorted the current limit is the unit plugged into the outlet, no more then that can flow assuming it is wired properly.  I have bunches wired that way.  Also note everybody stated the bottom plug is always on the top is controlled (a pseudo standard maybe).  That indicates that a two conductor wire can go from the plug to the switch to effect the control (this is not always true).

Have Fun
Gil Shultz
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: HA Dave on August 09, 2007, 09:27:49 PM
Quote from: chewie8han on August 06, 2007, 12:53:44 PM

Yeah, I know it doesn't meet code.................


I have been reviewing this thread... as there are some mis-statements... or errors in grammar... which was brought to my attention. However, I think the  "I know it doesn't meet code" says it all.

Code(s) vary greatly country-to-country, state-to-state, county-to-county, and even local regulators ... where they apply. There are many safe solutions to most every X10 need! I don't personally know of any code that would consider putting a dimmer on a split receptacle as SAFE.

Putting a dimmer or a split receptacle is NOT recommended.
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: Oldtimer on September 03, 2007, 09:41:52 PM
Quote from: Oldtimer on August 01, 2007, 10:56:10 PM
Quote from: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 01, 2007, 10:00:23 PM

For instance what happens if someone plugs a vacuum cleaner into the switch controlled outlet?  If the switch is in "full on" mode (i.e. not dimmed) it still might be blown by the high current required by the vacuum cleaner.  Almost any other appliance or AC (wall wart) adapter, etc. would not like it if the wall switch was "dimming".   :o


There are several outlets in our house where this is a problem.  My wife knows to be careful but other family members who only visit on occasion aren't.  What I did was to get a package of molded plastic dummy "kid protection" plugs and put them into the half of the outlets controlled by the X10 switches.  So far this has successfully kept vacuum cleaners, irons, etc. from being plugged into them and burning out the X10 switch.


Here's an update to this post. Based on what I learned from this thread, I have changed the switch that controls these outlets from the dimming variety to an XPS3 20 amp appliance/fluorescent wall switch. The "kid protection" plugs are still there but if anything else, like an iron or vacuum cleaner, is plugged in the switch can easily handle it. Now, hopefully, the NEC and my insurance company will be happier.
Title: Re: Light switches with a split outlet
Post by: HA Dave on September 04, 2007, 09:37:28 AM
Quote from: Oldtimer on September 03, 2007, 09:41:52 PM

.......... I have changed the switch that controls these outlets from the dimming variety to an XPS3 20 amp appliance/fluorescent wall switch. ..................if anything else, like an iron or vacuum cleaner, is plugged in the switch can easily handle it. Now


A solid and safe solution to an apparently, comman problem. Thank-you Oldtimer