X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: LA Fred on November 23, 2007, 08:54:26 PM
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I bought 9 modules last year to control the Christmas candles in our windows. All worked as advertised, except one. It would come on but not turn off. I figured it was a faulty receptacle and bought a new one to put in this year.
However, today when I hooked the modules up for this year, only four would work. Of the five that failed, four are three pin appliance models and one is a two pin appliance model. To double check the bad units, I plugged them into the bottom part of the receptacle in which the control box was plugged.
I guess they were cycled on and off, at the most, 30 times last Christmas. They were then replaced to their original boxes and stored in the hall closet.
The reason I am posting this is because, within the pages and pages and pages of gushy stuff about the X-10 stuff, I could not find one single place to go to if you had faulty equipment.
I jokingly told my wife that, with a failure rate of almost 60%, this stuff must have been made in China. By George, I looked and it WAS made in China!
Does any one know how I can best resolve this matter?
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Where did you buy them?
I buy X10 modules from Automated Outlet http://www.automatedoutlet.com/home.php Their prices are lower than X10 USA's and shipping is $7.50 per order no matter how many items you buy. Automated Outlet also sells a lot of X10 compatible modules made by other companies.
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LA Fred,
Welcome to the forum.
Like you I have a number of appliance modules that get pulled out of boxes every Christmas for "decoration duty". Unlike you, some of these are over 10 years old and I've yet to have a failure (I'm knocking on my wood desk now).
Your failure rate is unusal, particulary because your units were simply stored over the past year. While I could understand some infant mortality, 5 units is way off the charts.
I suspect you have something else going on (noise/faulty controller) that is causing the problem with the Appliance modules. You didn't mention what type of controller you were using (tabletop - mini controller?).
All of my appliance modules at true "relay" units. You can hear them "click" when they are activated. If your problem units are not "clicking", they are either not receiving the X10 signal from your controller (noise/bad controller/signal sucking) or are totally brain dead. I can't explain had a Appliance module would go "brain dead" being stored in a closet (you don't have any EMP sources nearby - JOKE).
If your units do "click" they are receiving the X10 signal and simply not turning on the output (You're correct - they're bad).
Let us know the situation,
Boiler
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Since they where sitting idle for a time. You may want to just give both the House Code and Unit Code dials a few turns. On the off chance they got intermitant and the address has shifted to one you are not using.
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To Boiler: The controller is named "Powerhouse Mini Controller." Inasmuch as the unts were plugged into the same wall soclket as the controller, there shouildn't be too much noise. And, since the other modules work with this controller, my thinking is stiil about the modules.
To Dan: Everything was bought directly from X-10.
To: Brian: Turning the dials did not help.
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Inasmuch as the units were plugged into the same wall socket as the controller, there shouldn't be too much noise.
While plugging both into the same receptacle should eliminate signal strength issues, it does not eliminate a possible noise problem.
First, some background: X10 data is sent as a series of 120KHz bursts over the powerline. Presence of a burst is interpreted as a logic "1" and absence of a burst as a logic "0". All data is sent in complimentary pairs: "1-0" or "0-1" In-band noise can fill up those empty slots.
A module that does not incorporate AGC to raise its detection level above the background noise level will read the noise as additional "1" bits, and reject the command.
In the year since you last used these modules, you may have added some electronic devices that radiate significant electrical noise onto the powerline. Possible culprits include compact fluorescent lights, cell phone chargers, and other plug-in "wall-warts". I wrote a note on one particularly nasty charger:
http://jvde.us/x10/x10_cellet_noise.htm
I suggest you also read this tutoral on how to deal with these problems:
http://jvde.us/x10/x10_filters.htm
Good luck,
Jeff
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To Jeff: I glanced through the articles you provided and was blown off my feet. If you look through the many, many web pages the X-10 people have telling about their products, I don't believe you will find one single word about any of the problems mentioned in the articles. I wonder how they are allowed to sell this as "security" equipment.
Is there any X-10 type of equipment that a person could consider for security purposes or should everything be hardwired?
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Is there any X-10 type of equipment that a person could consider for security purposes or should everything be hardwired?
I'm a believer in hardwired myself, and pulled in over a thousand feet of wire here. I even installed a microswitch in front of the deadbolt on the entrance door so the security system alerts us whenever that is not locked.
Many people do use wireless systems. They are better than nothing, and certainly much easier to install.
Jeff
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Thanks to all of you.
The good news is that I called X-10 and they agreed to RMA all five of the modules.
But this was a good lesson for me if I ever get serious about a security system.
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To Jeff: I glanced through the articles you provided and was blown off my feet. If you look through the many, many web pages the X-10 people have telling about their products, I don't believe you will find one single word about any of the problems mentioned in the articles. I wonder how they are allowed to sell this as "security" equipment.
Is there any X-10 type of equipment that a person could consider for security purposes or should everything be hardwired?
Fred,
While you're correct that the X10 advertisements do not list all the possible failure modes for an X10 system, their knowledge base (wiki) does deal with the subject. This is far more information than many manufacturers put forth.
I've yet to see an auto manufacturer list all of the possible failure modes in one of their brochures. If they did, you might very well opt for public transportation.
There are very reliable automation systems available. These are typically beyond the means of the average homeowner. The X10 technology is old, is very reasonably priced, and has problems dealing with much of the modern equipment that we now install in our home. Even with the modern noise and signal absorption devices, that were never envisioned 30 years ago, the X10 technology can be made to work.
I understand that you live in the LA area and that CFL's are pretty much the rule. As you've probably already gathered, "certain" CFL's can be a death Knoll for X10. This doesn't have to be the case. You have a number of options available.
- Replace "noisy" CFL's with X10 friendly units. I have used Sylvania (only have 6), others have reported good luck with GE. Try a search on the forum
- Isolate and filter "noisy CFL's with an inline filter (may be more expensive than replacing the bulbs).
- Switch automation technologies.
In regard to security systems, I'll again fall in step with Jeff. I like the hardwired solution. Like him, my home was new construction and I spent many hours pulling wires for security, phone, cable, and network. RF is easy, but it's hard to beat the reliability of a hardwired system.
All of the above leads to a personal decision that only you can make. Living in LA, you have very different drivers than I do in the Midwest. Weigh the cost, convenience, reliability and make your decision.
Let us know which direction you're headed.
Boiler
Fred - you beat me to the post. Please let us know the results of your replacement units.
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Boiler,
You have educated me in two ways.
First, I wasn’t aware of the complexities involved in using the X-10 components.
Second, I wasn’t aware of the fact that that not all CFLs were the same. I bought these at Wal-Mart or Sam’s (I nave forgotten which). So, they very well may be the cheapest and poorest made you can get.
I’ll pay closer attention the next time I buy some. If they are screwing up the X-10 modules, they could very well be screwing up (or, at least, hindering) something else.
The fact that all of the “green” people are pushing so hard for everyone to go to the CFLs could very well spell trouble for the X-10 community.
Thank you for taking the time to bring all of this out,
Fred
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LA Fred,
Welcome to the forum.
Like you I have a number of appliance modules that get pulled out of boxes every Christmas for "decoration duty". Unlike you, some of these are over 10 years old and I've yet to have a failure (I'm knocking on my wood desk now).
Your failure rate is unusal, particulary because your units were simply stored over the past year. While I could understand some infant mortality, 5 units is way off the charts.
I suspect you have something else going on (noise/faulty controller) that is causing the problem with the Appliance modules. You didn't mention what type of controller you were using (tabletop - mini controller?).
All of my appliance modules at true "relay" units. You can hear them "click" when they are activated. If your problem units are not "clicking", they are either not receiving the X10 signal from your controller (noise/bad controller/signal sucking) or are totally brain dead. I can't explain had a Appliance module would go "brain dead" being stored in a closet (you don't have any EMP sources nearby - JOKE).
If your units do "click" they are receiving the X10 signal and simply not turning on the output (You're correct - they're bad).
Let us know the situation,
Boiler
Well, I have the exact same problem with X-10 stuff. I have 10 lamp modules that are about a year old and ALL of them have failed. As far as I can tell when I performed forensics on the dead modules, the cpus are dying. They are Microchip PIC microcontrollers, mostly of the 12c508 variety. They are failing, rendering the modules useless. Further, I bought two of the spotlight cameras, and they are both dead. There is no point in buying more as their forensics turned up a relay with a large steel pin to connect to the hot side of the AC line. These relays are getting hot or something, but the relays keep coming unsoldered from the boards. When I opened them up, most of the solder and circuit board had arced away before the connections failed outright and the lights stopped coming on. The relay doesn't even "click" anymore. I also purchased the ActiveHome kit. After about 6 months the interface stopped responding to the computer. I bought a second just to see if it was the controller. It was. The second controller died just after 3 months. I live in Phoenix, AZ and it is very likely that we have bad power. It goes off frequently, especially during monsoon season. This is what probably killied my remaining two appliance modules. I also have a two-way interface that burned up without my knowing it. I noticed the outside light wasn't coming on, and found the insides charred and burnt beyond recognition. So -- out of over 30 pieces I once had, I have one or two left. I have friends who have reported similar disasters. The bottom line -- neither of us will ever even consider X-10 junk ever again. I am working on designing my own system that will not use powerline communications... Hey, anyone want any keyfob remotes? I must have 6 of them. Anyone wants them, let me know and you can HAVE them for the shipping cost.
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jeffl1932,
With so many failed units, I can certainly understand your frustration.
I've re-read your post numerous times trying to determine how to reply. Here goes...
You've seen 100% failure of your lamp modules. The modules you're referring to (PIC controller) are apparently the "new" design. I don't have any of these nor is there a lot of info on them (schematics). Let's table this one for the moment.
You reported solder re-flow on two of your camera/floodlights. That doesn't sound like a power surge (not unless you achieved breakdown on a downstream component). It takes a sustained over current to re-flow solder. I probably don't need to mention that this is more than a little dangerous.
I expect the flood lamp circuit is similar to my PR511 flood lamps. My units have been operating since '2000 without a hiccup.
Your appliance modules are probably similar to the circuit for your floodlights (relay control). Have you attempted "forensics" on any of these?
Your controller (CM11a or CM15a?) is a bit different. This device isn't connected to a load. The CM15a is fused and is transformer and opto isolated from the line. While I don't have experience with some of your devices, they are newer devices or I simply don't have any, I have quite a bit of experience with the CM11a/CM15a. They're pretty tough devices to hurt.
CM15a Schematic Link (https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=347598&native_or_pdf=pdf)
The common mode failure in all of the above is your powerline (I'm trying not to jump to conclusions here). Have you noticed a high failure rate on incandescent bulbs?
Whether or not you ever intend to use X10 devices again, I would seriously recommend that you call your power company. It's possible that you have a poor neutral connection or other problem with your transformer. Your power company has line monitoring/trending devices that they can install to detect these types of problems. If for no other reason than peace of mine, the effort would be worth it.
Let us know if you come up with anything,
Boiler
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UPDATE
I received the replacement units from the X-10 people Friday night (8:24 PM - I'm the last stop on the FedEx route).
They all work.
However, I came upon an unexpected problem. Although all of the units worked when I tested them, two failed to work when I installed them. Using some of the knowledge I gained here, I started unplugging likely noise making suspects on the circuit. I finally found the problem. It was the TrippLite Line Stabilizer/Conditioner LC1800 that I had my TV, DVD and VRC plugged into.
Now, here is something that is supposed to be removing line noise from things plugged into it, but is screwing up the circuit into which it is plugged!
I guess the next step is to get an isolator or filter to plug the TrippLite unit into.
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The AC Input circuit on many devices; like my APC BX1000 UPS and maybe your TrippLite; have noise filtering on them. X10 and other signals like Insteon. To that filter is noise and it absorbs it. I had to add a 10 Amp; X10 type filter to my BX1000 AC Line or it greatly degraded my power line signals.
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This weekend I went to install a new three way switch only to realize that it was a two way. I got out an old X10 two way switch I had removed (probably from the same location) 15 years or so ago (I substituted a stand alone switch with it's own timer that was easier for Mom to program - it repeated what you did). It worked fine! All those years in a drawer on the screened porch and it worked fine.
I have a question though. I put in a brand new three way in another location. It controls a table lamp, an exterior light with a full size bulb, and two small exterior built in lights. It works fine, but after being on for a few minutes there is a slight buzz similar to some florescents. Is that normal?
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Saber Dog,
This is probably due to the Triac output "chopping" the 60 Hz sine wave. I could hear some of my incandescents "sing" softly when they were dimmed. I solved this problem by growing older (can't hear as well).
Try increasing the output to "full level". If the noise goes away I'd say it's the dimming function of the Triac and completely normal.
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Most incandescent lamp filaments are actually a flimsily supported tiny coil of wire. The rapid current risetime when the dimmer triac switches on induces a magnetic force in those coils. Depending on the filament geometry and supporting structure, some lamps will buzz in response to the chopped waveform. It has been reported that the heavy service bulbs which have a better supported filament are less prone to produce the noise.
Jeff
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Most incandescent lamp filaments are actually a flimsily supported tiny coil of wire. The rapid current risetime when the dimmer triac switches on induces a magnetic force in those coils. Depending on the filament geometry and supporting structure, some lamps will buzz in response to the chopped waveform. It has been reported that the heavy service bulbs which have a better supported filament are less prone to produce the noise.
Now that's a great explanation. I'd never thought to apply Maxwell's equations to a "singing" incandescent bulb.
The next question might be, are we wearing out incandescent bulbs by dimming them and inducing a resonance in the filament? Not that this is not restricted to X10. All electronic (not the old mechanical) dimmers use the same Triac output dimming technique.
Thanks Jeff
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I should have been a bit more explicit. The buzz is coming from the switch not the bulbs it controls. It isn't very loud and it doesn't start immediately. It starts a minute or so after turning on the switch. I'll have to check to see if it is fully on or slightly dimmed.
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Part of the dimmers circuit has a coil in it. Sometimes the coil buzzes if it isn't wound tight enough or secured to the board.
Some lots of the Smarthome modules where known to buzz.
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Boiler,
This has kinda gotten lost in this thread, but back to the 5 out of 9 modules that failed:
X-10 replaced the defective units. They all worked, except two. I later realized that the two that seemingly didn’t work were on the same circuit as a TrippLite Line Stabilizer/Conditioner LC1800. When I unplugged the TrippLite unit, the modules worked as they were supposed to.
When I contacted TrippLite about their unit being the cause of the modules on that circuit not working, they first replied “No way” that their units could be causing the problem.
They went on to suggest that I put their isolation units on the X-10 products. I explained that, because the X-10 units needed to talk over the line that I thought that isolation units would definitely cause them to not work. I then asked if there was any way I could test the TrippLite unit to see if it was, in fact putting out a disturbance – something it shouldn’t do. I also wanted to check to see if it might be fouled upon the output side.
They replied that it would take training and expensive equipment to test the unit – and what did I expect from a unit almost 12 years old, anyway. They then offered to sell me a new unit at the discounted price of $129.60.
I had thought highly of TrippLite up until now.
I need a unit similar to the TrippLite because the power here fluctuates a lot. Would you think that 12 years is a reasonable life expectancy for such a unit or should be looking at another brand?
Thank you,
Fred
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You may want to isolate the TrippLite with an X10 band power line filter with a sufficient rating for its AC input. They have 5; 10; 15 and 20 amp filters if memory serves me. I have a 10 Amp one on my APC BX1000 UPS.
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When I contacted TrippLite about their unit being the cause of the modules on that circuit not working, they first replied “No way” that their units could be causing the problem.
All UPS contain high-power switching circuits. Many contain line filters to meet the FCC limits on conducted radiation. Obviously, all manufacturers try to meet the requirements as economically as possible. The result is that they usually place a capacitor directly across the power input to shunt internally generated noise to neutral. Unfortunately, that also shunts any X10 signal appearing on that circuit to neutral. It would cost maybe buck more to add an inductor that would isolate the unit from the powerline at higher frequencies. Since most consumers make their decision based on lowest price, the increased cost might result in lost sales and less profit.
Since the Tripplite obviously contains a line filter, that's why they said it could not be causing problems with anyting else. I doubt that many people who design this equipment even consider that the powerline may be used for anything other than providing raw AC power.
As others have said, a X10 filter that adds the missing inductor will fix the problem.
Jeff
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I just had that problem today. It caused by line noice. Try getting a filter. Call x10 at 18006753044 they will explan it all to you.
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X-10 replaced the defective units. They all worked, except two. I later realized that the two that seemingly didn’t work were on the same circuit as a TrippLite Line Stabilizer/Conditioner LC1800. When I unplugged the TrippLite unit, the modules worked as they were supposed to.
When I contacted TrippLite about their unit being the cause of the modules on that circuit not working, they first replied “No way” that their units could be causing the problem.
They went on to suggest that I put their isolation units on the X-10 products. I explained that, because the X-10 units needed to talk over the line that I thought that isolation units would definitely cause them to not work. I then asked if there was any way I could test the TrippLite unit to see if it was, in fact putting out a disturbance – something it shouldn’t do. I also wanted to check to see if it might be fouled upon the output side.
They replied that it would take training and expensive equipment to test the unit – and what did I expect from a unit almost 12 years old, anyway. They then offered to sell me a new unit at the discounted price of $129.60.
I had thought highly of TrippLite up until now.
I need a unit similar to the TrippLite because the power here fluctuates a lot. Would you think that 12 years is a reasonable life expectancy for such a unit or should be looking at another brand?
Fred,
I did a little research on your LC1800. It's an interesting device. Not a UPS at all in the conventional sense (no battery circuit). It uses a stepped transformer to "adjust" and condition the input voltage to 120V nominal (+10/-12%) over an input voltage range of 89 to 147Vac. As Jeff Volp indicated, I would consider this to be a heavy X10 signal load (not a noise generator).
Although this appears to be an "old school" design, I've never used a device like this before and don't know how the input stage is configured. In short, I don't know what it will take to isolate this unit from your X10 system. Perhaps another forum member has direct experience with this configuration. The unit itself is rated for 15A peak current, so you'll need a rather capable isolator.
Link: TripLite LC1800 Specs (http://www.tripplite.com/shared/pdf/spec/tlspec_2833.pdf)
From the few reviews that I have seen, I would say that your high opinion of this device was not misplaced (very positive reviews). I'm not sure that I would put too much weight on your call to Tripplite. Is sounds as if you were dealing with "non-technical" support staff.
I am a bit curious what you are protecting with this device (high end A/V system?) and what you are protecting against (brownouts or spikes?). If you are curious how the device is performing you could try monitoring the output stage with a power meter. I recently (~2 months ago) purchased a UPM EM100 power meter. Nice little device. It can log max/instantaneous current and power and cumulative power consumption. Unfortunately the voltage logging is instantaneous only (you would need to watch the meter during a voltage sag/surge to see if the TrippLite were operating properly). You may want to look around the LA area for a voltage monitoring device. I would think that devices of this type would be in demand in your area.
Bottom line here is, your LC1800 has protected your equipment for 12 years. I wouldn't scrap the unit based on a phone call to a support person that was motivated to sell you a new unit.
Keep us posted,
Boiler
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I don't usually comment very much any more, but I have used Many of the Tripp-Lite type units and they are actually MUCH better than a battery back-up for filtering. (They are really known as "Line Conditioners" and are used in many forms in almost every CNC machine made.
It is VERY rare for one of these units to fail, however, I have seen their filtering level drop due to the Caps used decreasing in value over the years. I have 5 operating in my house right now and would never even think about running ANY modern electronic equipment without one. I actually have been using them for more than 25 years and I thank them for the fact of never having any device fail that was attached. My average life for an old TV was 10 years and then I only replaced the set for new features.
TO get back to the reason I am commenting. The main filtering on these units is USUALLY on the output side, NOT the input side. With the 5 different units I have now, of which 2 are Tripp-Lite and one of those is an LC-1800, I have never lost any signal from plugging them into the wall. Of course, no X-10 units will run on the output of one of these. If the unit you have is sucking out the x-10 signals, then one of the X-10 filters should clear it up but you must take into account how these work. If you were to have a low voltage input and were drawing the full output, the darn thing WILL draw a LOT more amperage to keep the output voltage constant. I have run an air conditioner on a long extension cord with the 1800 unit at the end of the cord just before the AC and it works great, but can draw 15-18 amps on my current meter (Basic clamp-on) for a 12 amp AC load. I never measured the start-up surge, but I'm sure that doesn't apply here anyway. Just be sure to add around 25% to the current value you expect to draw, and be sure the filter you get is rated for that.
I wouldn't recommend ever getting rid of those Tripp-Lite units, unless they die, and I have never yet seen one give out. OF course the best units ever are the old "SOLA" units, but they consume too much power for any homeowner to even think of using one. Imagine proper voltage regulation with NO electronics. Those units used core saturation to limit the output to the desired level and dissipated the rest as heat.
Hope I haven't bored too many with the rehashing of history, but these "Conditioners" have always been my favorite things for power line clear-up, and for a real history trivia, the resonant ones could keep cycling for long enough for old mainframes to have time for an emergency power down if main power was lost. Try that today...
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Art,
Great to hear from you again. And even better to hear from someone with first hand experience with the Tripp-lite.
I was impressed with what I had read about the unit but was unsure as to the input configuration. Excellent point regarding the increase current draw during periods of "low input voltage operation". Out of curiosity, what is the unloaded power consumption of one of these units?
You also reminded me about the old saturation mode "solas". These were standard equipment in our production test stands throughout the 70's and 80's (I've been out of that field since the late 80's). You also mentioned the power consumption - I had forgotten about that. I can think of at least 50 of these units that are still operating in our plant (probably many more buried in floors and ceilings with no loads connected). I may have to mention something to our facilities person... At least they're helping to supplement the boilers this time of year (no pun intended).
Don't feel that you need to wait another 7 months to "chime in".
Boiler
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I'm afraid I'm not sure on the power consumption of the tripp-lite units. They don't usually run very hot in normal (Not low voltage) mode, so I don't think they can draw too much.
As for the Sola's, forget it. They draw a LOT of power unless the line input is below the saturation voltage. (Around 80-85 VAC). I have seen some versions that pull 200 watts, idle, with no load attached. (Probably why they aren't around much anymore.)
As for chiming in, I have seen that there are so many qualified people talking (posting?) here that I try to keep up, but unless I am involved in that specific problem or area at the time, I know someone with better experience in that area will chime in with a better answer. I know I tend to be wordy (Use too many words?) and get off topic too much for the benefit of the information, which is why people come here. The old phrase in reverse. If your not part of the solution, don't be part of the problem. If I can offer an interesting tidbit, I will try, but I really try to stay in the background as much as possible. Now that I am completely off-topic, I'll shut up and read the 8 pages of posts that I missed in the last couple weeks. Maybe there will be something there I can offer USEFUL information to.