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🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: reachtim on July 19, 2008, 08:08:34 PM

Title: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: reachtim on July 19, 2008, 08:08:34 PM
I have 14+ hours invested and am a computer consultant by trade.    Troubleshooting is what I do for a living.  But I cannot get any consistency from these products.

My Chime SC546a on B1 does trigger when I place my MS13a on B1 but no sound comes out.    I have tested a second one and same result.   The music notes show up on my AHP screen but no sound.

My camera XC19a never shuts off and there is no way to get it out of live mode.    When you turn all off it just triggers the MS1a motion detector and starts all over again.   

The One macro I wrote (from a textbook sample) worked a couple times then crashed the whole program.   Now it does not work at all.    Never triggers the video recording even when exectuted.

Every instruction sheet I get in the boxes is TOTALLY USELESS as it makes no mention of the fact that I have a computer and don't care to use a VCR for my cameras.    None of the model numbers match up to anything that pertains to reality. 

How do you "old timers" stay with this product?   Unless they quality has just gone down the tubes lately.

I am tempted to either rip the whole thing out or spend another $800 to $1000 to get someone to try to peice it all together.   I feel very lied to in their advertising.

Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: Knightrider on July 19, 2008, 08:18:50 PM
Us oldtimers stick with x10 because we enjoy the challenge.  I started out with my first  x10 setup (radio shack plug-n-power) at the ripe old age of 13, and moved into computer control within the last 5 years.
You might be experiencing a problem getting the signal across the phases in your home wiring.  That would explain the problem with the chime.

As far as the camera getting out of live mode, I want to know how many cams you are using.

For the macro that crashes, could you please post it here and we'll all be glad to see if it crashes our systems or if we can find a way to help you out.

While the instructions may be useless, this forum is a wealth of knowledge and friendly people willing to help.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: HA Dave on July 19, 2008, 09:24:06 PM
I have 14+ hours invested and ........................ I cannot get any consistency from these products. How do you "old timers" stay with this product?   I am tempted to either rip the whole thing out..............

I can almost hear the frustration in your words! That a GOOD thing because that means it's all just about ready to come together. Sometimes the larger automation/security packages can be nearly overwhelming in they're complexity. It has been my experience... that the 14+ hours you've invested is well within the 30 minute setup time advertized. (by the way... Knightriders advice looks good [reads well] to me.)

Stay with it.... read and post here... IT WILL WORK.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: x10challanged on July 20, 2008, 07:21:52 AM
Hi Reachtim, welcome to the forums
I remember when I first started with these products, I was frustrated and ready to take a hammer to everything then ship it back.  This forum helped me get it put together and working as advertised.  Best advice I can give you is take it slow, one set-up at a time, test then go to the next. 
WE are all here to help you with the problems so post and let us help.  We do not work for X-10, we enjoy helping troubleshoot and solve the problems.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: Brian H on July 20, 2008, 07:37:13 AM
Are you using the AHP CM15A to receive the signal from the MS13A?

Double check that in the Hardware Configuration the House Code B is set to be transceived. If not the RF signal will not be resent over the power line to the chime module.

The Motion Sensor has a Dusk-Dawn sensor in it that sends an on when dark and off when light. The address is one Unit higher than the motion address so B2 in your case. Anything on B2 will go on and off as the sensor detects light and dark. It is possible to have lets say a lamp module on B2 that cycles on and off as it shines on the motion sensor. ::)

You may also want to try a different location for the motion sensor and chime to see if you have a powerline or RF distance problem.

Troubleshooting sites that maybe of some help:
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-solutions.com/PCC/uncle.htm
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: zach1234 on July 21, 2008, 12:08:14 AM
Follow the steps others have given you, or if your in the chicago or lake Geneva WI area email me.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: PAULF on August 03, 2008, 01:27:23 PM
I purchased the alarm system a few years back it the system works great.  The AHP and the macros have been a royal paid and I agree that this thing is becoming not worth my time and effort.  I was willing to invest the start up time if the system worked but the reliabilty of the product is so poor compared to the alarm system.  Why does this product pale in compariosn to the alarm system?  I built a house and wired it up for the cams etc and I have not even attempted to get them working as I cannot get a simple macro to work relaibly.  You "old timers" must like to waste your time and money.  Home automation was purchased to save time, money, and improve quality of life and it has only done the opposite.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: HA Dave on August 03, 2008, 02:54:32 PM

.............You "old timers" must like to waste your time and money.  Home automation was purchased to save time, money, and improve quality of life and it has only done the opposite.


Have you been talking to my wife?

All humor aside... your right that AHP and the CM15A aren't plug-n-play out-of-the-box type stuff. AHP and the CM15A interface are the heart of my HA setup. But I didn't start out with AHP.... I built my system over time. I always install, test, (trouble shoot if needed) and then use.

I think it would be easy to become overwhelmed if trying to put together a larger system overnight. Read the forum and post your problems specificity. Rarely does anyone who tries go away without a working system.

But I can assure you (as an "old timer") this stuff hasn't eaten up all my time, and it REALLY DOES WORK. Check out my X10 YouTube Video  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apZF77tsZlI).
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: Walt2 on August 05, 2008, 08:47:19 AM
You "old timers" must like to waste your time and money.  Home automation was purchased to save time, money, and improve quality of life and it has only done the opposite.

First, it is a hobby.  As with any hobby, it requires both time and commitment.

Yea, there is a learning curve.  I have been with X10 stuff since for around 25 years.  And I have learned many of the tricks and techniques. 

For my "reward", I have a system that works 97.3% of the time.  Well, it works 100% for a long time, then something stops, and I have to debug what went wrong.   

That's the challenge of the hobby. -:)

Honestly, I find X10 much easier, than say, Windows.   rofl
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: arf1410 on August 06, 2008, 01:31:42 PM
You "old timers" must like to waste your time and money.  Home automation was purchased to save time, money, and improve quality of life and it has only done the opposite.

First, it is a hobby.  As with any hobby, it requires both time and commitment.


that's the understatement of the week!  Problem is, while all the old timers understand it is a hobby (more than a useful system), its marketed by X10 like a plug and play, useful, timesaving system, and with the hardware and software problems, in addition to all the interference causing electronics in a modern household, the system (and X10 in general) is likely LESS functional than the basic modules were 15 years ago...At least today's versions of Windows are much better than the original, 1995 release!
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: HA Dave on August 06, 2008, 02:58:23 PM
   .......the system (and X10 in general) is likely LESS functional than the basic modules were 15 years ago...

Actually I'd be very happy if the power company, the cable company, or the company that picks up the trash.... was as reliable and dependable as my X10 Home Automation.

It does take a little understanding of how X10 works. However.... all I know about X10... I've learned reading these very forums. None of the directions or instruction sheets are all that cumbersome. A plug-N-play life sounds like a dream... my life has been full of learning. But I've actually also learned to enjoy the learning.... AND the reading involved.

Reading may be out-of-vogue... but it's still necessary for a full enriched life (and a decent X10 setup).
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: JeffVolp on August 06, 2008, 03:00:44 PM
Problem is, while all the old timers understand it is a hobby (more than a useful system) ...

While some people like to tinker with their systems for the "gee wiz" effect, we use it to basically automate the house.  That includes all background lighting (not the "on demand" lights), landscape lights, irrigation (essential in the southwest), hot-water recirculation, and even auxiliary HVAC ventilation.  Everything runs with virtual 100% reliability unattended.  So, it can be a very useful system if you invest some time and effort to learn how to eliminate potential problems.

The system is so reliable that when my wife connects up the Christmas candles each year, the only "failures" are due to burnt out light bulbs.

Jeff


Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: arf1410 on August 06, 2008, 04:36:44 PM
I've got a Leviton 4 switch controller that has replaced one of the light switches in my master bedroom, (and another one elsewhere too).  They function at about 95% success in controlling various lights around the house.  I've got the CM11A, that works about 75% of the time carrying out it's tasks, and the CM15A works about 50% of the time...I've tried couplers/ repeaters, signal boosters, noise filters, changing outlets..leaving computer on, off etc...My guess is the Leviton puts out a stronger or better quality signal than the CM15A,  but if the system was robust, I shouldn't need to mess with it every time I put in a flourescent buld, LED night light or new TV...I don't doubt some people have systems working great, but I suspect anyone who have a large number of devices in a good sized home had to spend a fair amount of time getting it up and running reliably.  That's why I feel this stuff may be great for the hobbiest, but not for someone who never learned to program their VCR...
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: dave w on August 06, 2008, 04:51:50 PM
I don't doubt some people have systems working great, but I suspect anyone who have a large number of devices in a good sized home had to spend a fair amount of time getting it up and running reliably.  That's why I feel this stuff may be great for the hobbiest, but not for someone who never learned to program their VCR...

That's a pretty fair statement. You might want to check into newer RF based technology, such as  Z-Wave, etc. However they are 3 to 4 times the cost.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: JeffVolp on August 06, 2008, 05:01:27 PM
I've tried couplers/ repeaters, signal boosters, noise filters, changing outlets..leaving computer on, off etc...My guess is the Leviton puts out a stronger or better quality signal than the CM15A, but if the system was robust, I shouldn't need to mess with it every time I put in a flourescent bulb, LED night light or new TV...

There are a few things that you should understand about X10 automation.  The protocol was developed back in the 80's when there were no such things as switching supplies, compact fluorescent bulbs, or even home computers.  Many of these "new" devices interfere with X10 communication.  Most just load down the signal, causing marginal operation when the level becomes too weak - usually at modules located a long distance from the transmitter.  Some devices, like that Cellet cellphone charger, radiate so much noise that it can corrupt a X10 system all by itself.

Reliable X10 operation needs two things - good signal levels, and relatively low "in band" electrical noise.  A X10 signal meter such as the Elk ESM1 is almost essential in achieving that goal.  An investment in such a device will quickly pay for itself in time saved.  I hate honk my own horn here, but if you have a large home, you might seriously take a look at a signal booster, such as the XTB or XTB-IIR.  Quite a few people are using those successfully in very large homes.

I wrote a troubleshooting series here that should help you understand the issues, and hopefully get your system running better:

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

Jeff
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 06, 2008, 11:43:00 PM
Thanks, Jeff.

I've bookmarked the main site and X10 Tutorial for my browser.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: arf1410 on August 07, 2008, 01:10:33 PM

Quote
That's a pretty fair statement. You might want to check into newer RF based technology, such as  Z-Wave, etc. However they are 3 to 4 times the cost.
Quote

I've looked a little at both insteon and z-wave, and best I can tell, while better than X-10, they're not ready for prime time yet either...
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: HA Dave on August 07, 2008, 04:01:47 PM

I've looked a little at both insteon and z-wave, and best I can tell, while better than X-10, they're not ready for prime time yet either...


.... and there's the rub! Home Automation is not yet plug-N-play. Do we wait... and (for some of us) hope we live long enough to see (live in) an automated home? Or do we roll up our sleeves, dive in, and have the "Home of the future"... today.

I chose to have all it today! Like many others on the forum... when I need to justify the time and money... I call HA a hobby. But... for me.. it's really more of a lifestyle. X10 allows me to intergrate more automation for less money.... and really that's what it's all about.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: Boiler on August 07, 2008, 06:10:44 PM
I've looked a little at both insteon and z-wave, and best I can tell, while better than X-10, they're not ready for prime time yet either...

Once again, a fair statement.  I use both Insteon and X10.  I chose to go this route because the Insteon switches were backward compatible with my Leviton X10 units. I use the Leviton units because my better half chose "almond" switchplates for the house (had X10 Brand units in my old home and still have PR511 floods in the new). I also loved the 8 button Insteon keypads that are two way compatible and allow me to track the "status" of devices throughout the house.

Both Insteon and Zwave are emerging technologies.  They've had some growing pains (which are being overcome) and are adding new devices (original offerings couldn't compare with those available from X10).  Both of these technologies are moving forward and adding 3rd party manufacturers.

Both Insteon and Zwave employ techniques for improving communication reliability (relaying communications/retrying communications with true fault checking).  They work well in "Most" installations (but then the same could be said for X10).  One real discriminator is that there really are no troubleshooting tools for these technologies.  There isn't a ELK ESM1 or testerlinc for analyzing Insteon transmissions.  If they don't work, you're back to the "old school" troubleshooting techniques from the early days of X10. 
For Zwave, I'm not sure what type of analyzer you could use for interpreting the multiple hop RF transmission. 

In general, my Insteon setup has worked well for me.  I'm blessed with a good power feed (Indiana) and, having used good X10 filtering techniques previously, have had few problems.  Others have different stories, many of the "bad" stories originate from CA where powerline problems are frequent (no offense to CA).

So, using my favorite car analogy - do you want to go with the old tried and true Chevy/Ford (high mileage - X10) that will do pretty much everything you want it to do (but requires tinkering).  Or do you want that new Jag/Porsche (Insteon/Zwave/UPB) that looks sexy but doesn't have an established track record and could have hidden maintenance costs.

I made my choice and went the Insteon route (I'm elated with the Universal Devices ISY-26).  I can't say that this choice will work for you.

Boiler
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: arf1410 on August 07, 2008, 06:28:44 PM
I've looked a little at both insteon and z-wave, and best I can tell, while better than X-10, they're not ready for prime time yet either...

One real discriminator is that there really are no troubleshooting tools for these technologies.  There isn't a ELK ESM1 or testerlinc for analyzing Insteon transmissions.  If they don't work, you're back to the "old school" troubleshooting techniques from the early days of X10. 
ForBoiler

If / when the technology changes from that geared for a hobbiest to that geared for the consumer, you won't need trouble shooting equipment...I don't need trouble shooting equipment for my A/V equipment...my TV talks to my reciever to my DVD player to my ...
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: Boiler on August 07, 2008, 09:20:08 PM
If / when the technology changes from that geared for a hobbiest to that geared for the consumer, you won't need trouble shooting equipment...I don't need trouble shooting equipment for my A/V equipment...my TV talks to my reciever to my DVD player to my ...

Ok, I'll admit that my reference to "troubleshooting equipment" was a pet peeve.  That's simply where I came from.  I'm an old DIY'r and a tool nut.  If I can justify a new tool (compressor, Mig, lathes, vertical mill, etc) by doing the job myself, I'm going for it.  This explains why the floorspace of my workshop and garage exceeds the footprint for my house (please don't tell my wife).

I respect your desire for plug and play HA devices, but would respectfully submit that your price point is a bit low.  I'm assuming that your A/V equipment is all hardwired and that the component costs were more than a bit above that of a normal HA switch.  There are hardwired HA solutions that are vitually 100% reliable (Lutron is one).  Using your A/V example (high volume devices), figure on expending an equivalent amount per switch location (100+).    These units are hardwired to a central controller - very invasive (not for retrofit) and not very flexible. 

Simply put. your A/V equipment enjoys the advantage of huge volume, standard circuits (well proven), and a price point that is significantly higher than the HA devices that you are comparing with.  While it's not out of the question that HA will achieve the volume enjoyed by A/V equipment, we're nowhere close to that point yet.  Until then, we all have to pick the price point we are willing to operate at.  X10 is arguably the lowest and also enjoys the most devices.  Insteon, Zwave, and UPB appear to be converging at the next level.  Lutron a a ways beyond that (far out of my tax bracket).

Once again, what works for me may not work for you.  Do your homework and take your best shot.

Boiler
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: Walt2 on August 08, 2008, 02:16:29 PM
...I don't need trouble shooting equipment for my A/V equipment...my TV talks to my reciever to my DVD player to my ...

If one reads thru some of the more popular A/V forums, one would quickly find that isn't true for a large number of people.

While I didn't have any trouble yet, I know a lot of people with the same model (or series) of Toshiba HDTV that I own, that have a problem simply connecting up equipment thru its DVI input. Apparently, the "handshaking" that goes on between the two devices isn't "plug and play" (in other words "fool proof"), and if it goes wrong the first time, it is VERY difficult to force the two devices to try it again.

Player:  I would like to provide you with a 1080i video signal.
TV:  I accept/confirm that you will send me a 540p video signal.
User:  Gee, all I see if a punch of wiggly lines.   rofl
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: aslamma on August 08, 2008, 06:03:30 PM
I like the X-10 stuff, but I admit...it is rather frustrating at times as well.  While I like to tinker, it is often not feasible with the amount of time I have and that is the problem with the X-10 stuff (very time consuming to get it right).

The guys on coccontech and at automatedoutlet seem to be pretty high on UPB (Universal Powerline Bus) right now.  Has anyone crossed over from X-10 to UPB?  I am thinking this is a very real possibility for me.  You can get a module that will convert X-10 RF to UPB...which for me is good since I want to continue to use the slimswitches and motion sensors.  UPB seems to be very good once in the powerline, but still need a way to get the signal there.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: HA Dave on August 08, 2008, 06:45:11 PM

I like the X-10 stuff, but I admit..........................(very time consuming to get it right).


The time required to setup X10 is no greater (or lesser) than any other Home Automation system. As you gain experience with X10 (and HA in general) the amount of time required will be minimized.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: aslamma on August 08, 2008, 07:43:51 PM
Dave,

  How about on the hardware side?  X-10 modules require you to open up the switch to change the codes.  Insteon can be done by just tapping the rocker and I think UPB actually does it remotely via the computer.  I am now (as a workaround) thinking about changing the codes on my modules to help speed up X-10 response.  So just from the point of view of hardware, it seems to be more time consuming.

  Ahhhh...now the software, haha.  Well, there are a lot of little tricks to get AHP going...from hardware mods to software settings, to having to use very well thought out programming schemes.  It is my understanding (and may be terribly flawed) that other setups don't bog you down with these issues (at least not to the degree of X-10). 

  Now, of course IF you know what you are doing...like you do Dave, its not such a big deal.  And now that I am on my way to understanding a lot of this, I can make it work.  BUT, my fear is that as I grow in complexity, things will start to become unstable and continue to require more and more effort to work.  By noooo means am I anyone really to listen to about this!  But consideration from other sources like cocoontech should be given. 

  What I keep seeing over and over again is that X-10 is great for the hobbyist...and it truly is.  It is the most flexible, cost effective solution out there...but the very nature of a hobbyist is that you will have to tinker with it (and there is the rub).  However, my understanding is that UPB is solid and just works (and Insteon is somewhere in between but getting better).  The downside is that of course those costs a lot more...way more and do not really have X-10 equivalents (such as slim switches and motion sensors). 

  One may want to decide if they are a hobbyist or if they just want a solution.  Personally, I am on the fence.  While I like to have fun getting it to work, at times I am frustrated because I want to be 99% condifent in my solution.  Anyway, I just want to portray (as fairly and best that I know) the different systems.  Besides it does make sense that the more recent solutions out there have inherently better reliability...after all, X-10 is quite old considering the rate of change in electronics and technology.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: HA Dave on August 08, 2008, 08:40:50 PM
................... Besides it does make sense that the more recent solutions out there have inherently better reliability...after all, X-10 is quite old considering the rate of change in electronics and technology.

Yeah... that would make some sense... but I don't think it's quite true. You can flood your home with RF repeating signals... and it WILL resolve some problems. But it will ALSO create some new ones.

I am not saying this protocol... is better than that protocol. But my X10 setup is very reliable... as good as any system in my home. I don't think you'll do better... at several times the price.

I don't sell Home Automation... and am not disabled or dependent on my automated system. So if you want to call my HA a hobby... what can I say? I admire your ambition... but I think if you take your time with your setup no matter which brand you choose..... you'll be happier with the results.
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: aslamma on August 08, 2008, 09:36:14 PM
One thing I noticed about my Insteon dimmer is that is uses the neutral wire.  I believe it is less prone to false signals and other electronics this way.  Of course, this can be solved via X-10, but with filtering etc.....but again the point is that the other technologies may not require this additional effort.  As I mentioned before, either Insteon or UPB are still considerably easier to change codes on (versus opening up the switch).  I think the list goes on when it comes to software.

Dave, I don't doubt that you have a very reliable setup.  And I don't doubt that you can do amazing things with X-10.  All I am saying is that I ****think**** from what I have read and heard (and consistent with my personal experience), is that if you want to get things to work just right..that it will be easier with UPB.  I am not saying you can do any HA system with a flick of the wrist, but the alternatives might cut down on the learning curve, hardware setup, and debugging.  And that is really all I am trying to say. 
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: JeffVolp on August 08, 2008, 11:04:41 PM
One thing I noticed about my Insteon dimmer is that is uses the neutral wire.  I believe it is less prone to false signals and other electronics this way.  Of course, this can be solved via X-10, but with filtering etc.....but again the point is that the other technologies may not require this additional effort.  As I mentioned before, either Insteon or UPB are still considerably easier to change codes on (versus opening up the switch). 

The newer Leviton X10 compatible switches also use the neutral, and are electrically programmed (without opening the switch).  Personally, I prefer the older Leviton switches with the little code switches inside.  Then there is no question as to what the code is.  The Leviton switches are also very reliable with gated AGC to deal with powerline noise, and have true rocker action.

Some time ago I recall reading a discussion with UPB having a problem with a certain kind of powerline noise.  As manufacturers continue to develop new electronic equipment, there is no guarantee that what works well today will continue to work well in the coming decades.  Who knows what challenges we will face as the huge chargers needed for electric cars begin to proliferate...

Jeff
Title: Re: Does any of this stuff actually work?
Post by: HA Dave on August 08, 2008, 11:09:50 PM
......... Who knows what challenges we will face as the huge chargers needed for electric cars begin to proliferate...

OMG I hadn't even thought about that! And been just waiting for a decent electric!

Wonder what sized filter that will require?