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🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Topic started by: tom j on August 10, 2008, 03:00:27 AM

Title: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 10, 2008, 03:00:27 AM
Hello I was just using my AHP software to turn on and turn off some lights and I noticed that the dim and brightening commands are not working correctly for example I turned on my hall lights and dimmed them to 50% and then tried to brighten to 70% and they actually dimmed by more then 30%, tried it over and over and often if I try to brighten the lights they dim if I try to dim they brighten totally confused and frustrated if I use a remote I can dim and brighten with no problem but when this using the software sometimes it works but most times it doesn't hoping someone can make some suggestions to correct this I'm thinking it's a software bug since the remote will dim and brighten correctly, the software version I'm using is 3.204 any thoughts??

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: steven r on August 10, 2008, 09:50:28 AM
Do you have the "new" soft start switches?
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 10, 2008, 10:50:54 AM
Hello I was just using my AHP software to turn on and turn off some lights and I noticed that the dim and brightening commands are not working correctly for example I turned on my hall lights and dimmed them to 50% and then tried to brighten to 70% and they actually dimmed by more then 30%, tried it over and over and often if I try to brighten the lights they dim if I try to dim they brighten totally confused and frustrated if I use a remote I can dim and brighten with no problem but when this using the software sometimes it works but most times it doesn't hoping someone can make some suggestions to correct this I'm thinking it's a software bug since the remote will dim and brighten correctly, the software version I'm using is 3.204 any thoughts??

Tom j.

Upgrade to 3.228, it may correct some or all of the problems.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 10, 2008, 10:49:03 PM
Do you have the "new" soft start switches?


Hi! No actually I don't but was thinking about getting some I take it the software doesn't work with the soft start switches. I know it doesn't work with the Levitons with the soft start x10 lists them in AHP but I bought a few and they worked with the remote but not with the software, I'm thinking because of the memory function that the software can't communicate with it, so I had to return all but one of them. That's why I don't know why x10 list them as supported. Thanks

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 10, 2008, 10:52:03 PM
Hello I was just using my AHP software to turn on and turn off some lights and I noticed that the dim and brightening commands are not working correctly for example I turned on my hall lights and dimmed them to 50% and then tried to brighten to 70% and they actually dimmed by more then 30%, tried it over and over and often if I try to brighten the lights they dim if I try to dim they brighten totally confused and frustrated if I use a remote I can dim and brighten with no problem but when this using the software sometimes it works but most times it doesn't hoping someone can make some suggestions to correct this I'm thinking it's a software bug since the remote will dim and brighten correctly, the software version I'm using is 3.204 any thoughts??

Tom j.

Upgrade to 3.228, it may correct some or all of the problems.

Hmmm when was it released?  Maybe I sure hope so say have you ever experienced this problem, I take it you also feel this is a software issue. Thanks for all the help!!!

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 11, 2008, 08:45:10 AM
3.228 was issued May 9, 2008.   Open AHP and click Help, then Check for Update.

Also, have you bought any new lamp modules lately?  "Soft Start" has been added to various modules by X10 with no change in the part numbers.   
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: dave w on August 11, 2008, 11:54:43 AM
Hello I was just using my AHP software to turn on and turn off some lights and I noticed that the dim and brightening commands are not working correctly
Try dimming using "Absolute" , not "Relative".
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 13, 2008, 02:05:03 AM
Hello I was just using my AHP software to turn on and turn off some lights and I noticed that the dim and brightening commands are not working correctly
Try dimming using "Absolute" , not "Relative".

hmmm...  How do you do that I was just using the sliders in the software to adjust the levels.  Downloaded the new software seems just a tad better but it still really doesn't work. Thanks!

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 13, 2008, 02:14:29 AM
Say guys can you do the following go into AHP and manually go from say 100% to 50% to 30% the to 75% using the sliders in the programs using a x10 light switch either the decorator or standard wall switch module and have it accurately brighten and dim, just curious if anyone else is experiencing a similar problem. Thanks!

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: dave w on August 13, 2008, 12:58:55 PM
Hello I was just using my AHP software to turn on and turn off some lights and I noticed that the dim and brightening commands are not working correctly
Try dimming using "Absolute" , not "Relative".

hmmm...  How do you do that I was just using the sliders in the software to adjust the levels.  Downloaded the new software seems just a tad better but it still really doesn't work. Thanks!

Tom j.
Check the manual, page 33. Don't you have a "Set Absolute" button?
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Boiler on August 13, 2008, 06:04:31 PM
Tom,

Let me start by saying that, yes I have seen this in both the GUI (moving the switch sliders) and absolute dim/bright Macros.  I traced this to an interaction between my Leviton HCA02 repeater and AHP.  It's the reason I don't use standard dim commands in my system (all extended code dims).  I'm not sure if the interaction is specific to the HCA02, or if it applies to other repeaters as well.

Relative dims (dim%) appear to work ok in macros, but they cause "other" problems with my Leviton switches

The picture below is a clip that I took from 2 Activity monitor files. 

1) The first column "Command" shows what I was sending to the interface.
2) The Data from "Leviton HCA02 Repeater off" shows the activity monitor results with the interface off.  Everything worked fine here.
3) The data from "Leviton HCA02 Repeater on" shows three "receives" by the activity monitor (highlighted red).  I refer to these as "wrap back" from the repeater (although I don't completely understand why it occurs).  I believe these "receives" are confusing AHP into thing that the light is at a level lower than it is.  The yellow entries show where AHP is trying to compensate for the "wrap back receives' and is actually issuing a "Bright" command when you are telling it to "Dim".


(http://www.boiler.ucoz.com/Geocities/Dim_repeater.JPG)

As I said previously, this is what drove me toward the extended code Dim/Bright commands.  I am very happy with their performance.  I am, however, very interested in whether other forum members see this with different repeaters (is this just a HCA02 problem).

Boiler
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 15, 2008, 12:04:13 AM
Hello I was just using my AHP software to turn on and turn off some lights and I noticed that the dim and brightening commands are not working correctly
Try dimming using "Absolute" , not "Relative".

hmmm...  How do you do that I was just using the sliders in the software to adjust the levels.  Downloaded the new software seems just a tad better but it still really doesn't work. Thanks!

Tom j.
Check the manual, page 33. Don't you have a "Set Absolute" button?

hmm are you talking about a macro? I'm talking about using the sliders in the software itself. Thanks!

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: dave w on August 15, 2008, 11:59:40 AM

hmm are you talking about a macro? I'm talking about using the sliders in the software itself. Thanks!

Tom j.

Yes, Sorry.
Did you see Boiler's response? Do you have a repeater? Otherwise I agree with you and Dan....it sounds like a software problem, if the actual action is totally opposite your slider action.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Boiler on August 15, 2008, 02:03:32 PM
Dave and Tom,

What I was trying to say above is that I see "Opposite commands" when I use a Macro or the Module Slider.  When I turn off the Leviton repeater the problem goes away.  Unfortunately, without the repeater I can't reliably transmit to the entire house.

Tom - if you have a repeater, try disabling it and repeating your test. 
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: JeffVolp on August 15, 2008, 03:10:13 PM
Bright and Dim commands are very difficult for a repeater to handle properly due to the fact that they deviate from normal X10 protocol.  Most repeaters skip alternate bright/dim commands that are part of a sequence, resulting in a different command from the one that was sent.  That's why I spent a lot of time trying to get it right in the XTB-IIR.

Jeff
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: PajamaGuy on August 15, 2008, 03:47:16 PM
Hey Boiler - where does that "Events Report" come from???
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Boiler on August 15, 2008, 03:56:33 PM
Bright and Dim commands are very difficult for a repeater to handle properly due to the fact that they deviate from normal X10 protocol.  Most repeaters skip alternate bright/dim commands that are part of a sequence, resulting in a different command from the one that was sent.  That's why I spent a lot of time trying to get it right in the XTB-IIR.

Jeff

Jeff,

Agreed (we've been here before).  The "older" repeaters would skip the first command in the X10 "doublet".  The result was that the power phase the transmitter was located on would respond correctly.  The opposite phase (receiving from the repeater) would only see one of the "doublet" dim commands and perform a "micro dim" (out of synch with the transmitting phase).

In contrast, my Leviton HCA02 appears to be transmitting the entire dim sequence and the CM15a is "hearing" this as a separate transmission.  My testerlinc does not register any "retransmission" from the opposite phase.  I'm sure the repeater is causing the issue, but I can't explain the interaction.

Boiler
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Boiler on August 15, 2008, 03:58:37 PM
Hey Boiler - where does that "Events Report" come from???


That's actually a "massaged" output from the activity monitor.  If you "save" from activity monitor it will produce a .html file that you can import and edit.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: JeffVolp on August 15, 2008, 04:57:05 PM
The "older" repeaters would skip the first command in the X10 "doublet".  The result was that the power phase the transmitter was located on would respond correctly.  The opposite phase (receiving from the repeater) would only see one of the "doublet" dim commands and perform a "micro dim" (out of synch with the transmitting phase).

It is a little more complex than that.  You are entirely correct about skipping the first command in the "doublet".  But, that format only applies to the first bright/dim command in a sequence.  Sequential commands are not sent as "doublets".  They are tacked onto the end of the first command just a half a command at a time, with no inter-command gap.  As you say, the TW523 and older repeaters would parse that sequence forming "doublets" out of each pair of half commands, turning them into micro-dims.

Even the XTB-IIR does not repeat the first half of the first command, because that must be decoded and error checked first.  It is not possible to tack it onto the end of the sequence because that would certainly collide with any other command tailgating the dim sequence sent by the controller.

I do have a CM15A, and am interested in how it reports a dim sequence repeated by the XTB-IIR.  I am not that familiar with the CM15A, but if you could give me the step-by-step sequence for your test, I will try to repeat that here.

Jeff
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 15, 2008, 11:38:37 PM
Hi Boiler thanks for the help! Say a few questions do your Leviton switches have that soft start and memory? and are you saying that yours actually work with timers? I couldn't get my timers to work with them I was thinking it was because of the memory they always come on at the last dim level that was set.

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Boiler on August 16, 2008, 12:41:49 PM
It is a little more complex than that.  You are entirely correct about skipping the first command in the "doublet".  But, that format only applies to the first bright/dim command in a sequence.  Sequential commands are not sent as "doublets".  They are tacked onto the end of the first command just a half a command at a time, with no inter-command gap.  As you say, the TW523 and older repeaters would parse that sequence forming "doublets" out of each pair of half commands, turning them into micro-dims.

Sorry Jeff,
Bad phrasing on my part.  I do understand that the Dim command is a stream with no gaps between...

I do have a CM15A, and am interested in how it reports a dim sequence repeated by the XTB-IIR.  I am not that familiar with the CM15A, but if you could give me the step-by-step sequence for your test, I will try to repeat that here.

Thank you for volunteering (I was hoping that someone might).  I would be extremely interested in how the CM15a interacts with the XTB-IIR.

Allow me to state a couple of observations:
1) This problem surfaces when running commands from the PC.  When operating the switch sliders (AHP GUI) or manually activating a macro (clicking the macro start button in the GUI) the AHP software "sees" a wrap back  from my HCA02 repeater and gets confused.
2) When operating macros from the interface the problem is averted because the interface always sends the lamp module to 100% prior to dimming.  The "wrap back" receives are still in Activity monitor, the interface simply gets around them with it's method of dimming.

Configuration

Lamp module at L1
Macro at L10
Appliance module at L10 (used to trigger macro)
All transceived codes Disabled
Preferences: Issue ON in place of Bright %100 enabled.


(http://www.boiler.ucoz.com/Geocities/macro_Interface.JPG)

I)Activity log with the Repeater Disabled, Macro Stored in the Interface: When run from the interface, the Macro issues a "L Bright 100%" prior to each "Dim %" command.

Event    Date/Time    Action    Data
0    08/16/2008 10:55:44 am    Transmit    L10 (Test Macro)
1    08/16/2008 10:55:45 am    Transmit    L On (Test Macro)
2    08/16/2008 10:55:46 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
3    08/16/2008 10:55:46 am    Macro    L On (New Module)
4    08/16/2008 10:55:56 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
5    08/16/2008 10:55:56 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
6    08/16/2008 10:55:56 am    Macro    L Dim 49(New Module)
7    08/16/2008 10:56:05 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
8    08/16/2008 10:56:05 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
9    08/16/2008 10:56:05 am    Macro    L Dim 65(New Module)
10    08/16/2008 10:56:15 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
11    08/16/2008 10:56:15 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
12    08/16/2008 10:56:15 am    Macro    L Dim 69(New Module)
13    08/16/2008 10:56:25 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
14    08/16/2008 10:56:25 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
15    08/16/2008 10:56:25 am    Macro    L Dim 73(New Module)

II)Activity log with the Repeater Enabled, Macro Stored in the Interface: Same setup with the repeater enabled.  The red highlighted receives are what I refer to as "wrapback".  These only occur when my repeater is enabled.  They do not affect the lamp module operation because the interface is sending a 100% bright prior to each Dim% command.

Event    Date/Time    Action    Data
0    08/16/2008 10:52:19 am    Transmit    L10 (Test Macro)
1    08/16/2008 10:52:19 am    Transmit    L On (Test Macro)
2    08/16/2008 10:52:21 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
3    08/16/2008 10:52:21 am    Macro    L On (New Module)
4    08/16/2008 10:52:31 am    Receive    L Dim 47(New Module)
5    08/16/2008 10:52:31 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
6    08/16/2008 10:52:31 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
7    08/16/2008 10:52:31 am    Macro    L Dim 49(New Module)
8    08/16/2008 10:52:41 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
9    08/16/2008 10:52:41 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
10    08/16/2008 10:52:41 am    Macro    L Dim 65(New Module)
11    08/16/2008 10:52:49 am    Receive    L Bright 100(New Module)
12    08/16/2008 10:52:52 am    Receive    L Dim 68(New Module)
13    08/16/2008 10:52:52 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
14    08/16/2008 10:52:52 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
15    08/16/2008 10:52:52 am    Macro    L Dim 69(New Module)
16    08/16/2008 10:53:02 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
17    08/16/2008 10:53:02 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
18    08/16/2008 10:53:02 am    Macro    L Dim 73(New Module)


III)Activity log with the Repeater Disabled, Macro Stored in the PC: Once again, with the repeater disabled there is no evidence of receives in the activity log.  Note that the PC initiated macro is very different from the Interface initiated macro.  The PC simply issues a sequence of Dim commands, no Bright 100%.  This is because the PC "believes" it knows what level the lamp is currently at.

Event    Date/Time    Action    Data
0    08/16/2008 10:39:04 am    Transmit    L10 (Test Macro)
1    08/16/2008 10:39:04 am    Transmit    L On (Test Macro)
2    08/16/2008 10:39:06 am    Transmit    L1 (New Module)
3    08/16/2008 10:39:07 am    Transmit    L On (New Module)
4    08/16/2008 10:39:12 am    Transmit    L Dim 49(New Module)
5    08/16/2008 10:39:19 am    Transmit    L Dim 16(New Module)
6    08/16/2008 10:39:25 am    Transmit    L Dim 4(New Module)
7    08/16/2008 10:39:30 am    Transmit    L Dim 4(New Module)


IV)Activity log with the Repeater Enabled, Macro Stored in the PC: With the repeater enabled the "Wrap-Back Receives" are back again.  In this case the receives are confusing the PC. 

The below is a bit difficult to follow, so here's a summary -

Event 4 : The macro executes an absolute Dim 49% ( Requested level was 51% absolute = 100% - 49%).  AHP believes the lamp is at 51% (it is)
Event 5: AHP "sees" a wrap back from the repeater (DIM 52%).  The software now believes the lamp is at 0% ( 51% - 52% = off).
Event 6: Macro programmed level is 35% absolute.  Since AHP believes the lamp is Off, it incorrectly issues a Bright 35%.


Event    Date/Time    Action    Data
0    08/16/2008 10:27:42 am    Transmit    L10 (Test Macro)
1    08/16/2008 10:27:42 am    Transmit    L On (Test Macro)
2    08/16/2008 10:27:44 am    Transmit    L1 (New Module)
3    08/16/2008 10:27:44 am    Transmit    L On (New Module)
4    08/16/2008 10:27:50 am    Transmit    L Dim 49(New Module)
5    08/16/2008 10:27:52 am    Receive    L Dim 52(New Module)
6    08/16/2008 10:27:57 am    Transmit    L Bright 35(New Module)
7    08/16/2008 10:28:03 am    Transmit    L Dim 4(New Module)
8    08/16/2008 10:28:04 am    Receive    L Dim 5(New Module)
9    08/16/2008 10:28:09 am    Transmit    L Bright 1(New Module)
10    08/16/2008 10:28:09 am    Receive    L Bright 5(New Module)


That's it in a nutshell (maybe a coconut).  It would appear that this only affects PC initiated commands/macros.  Since I don't have any security/camera devices I can't say if there are any impacts on PC operations with these devices.

Jeff : I'm not sure if the above is sufficient for you to conduct testing of the XTB-II.  Please PM me if you'd like additional info/files.

Thanks,
Boiler
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Boiler on August 16, 2008, 01:07:21 PM
Hi Boiler thanks for the help! Say a few questions do your Leviton switches have that soft start and memory? and are you saying that yours actually work with timers? I couldn't get my timers to work with them I was thinking it was because of the memory they always come on at the last dim level that was set.

Tom j.

Tom,
Yes my Leviton switches do have the soft start and resume dim.  One of the ways to get around this is to use the extended code interface.  The easy way around the resume dim feature is to identify the units as "LM14a 2-way lamp modules" as shown below.  This interface will allow AHP to use "extended code" commands to communicate with the unit.

(http://www.boiler.ucoz.com/Geocities/extendedcode.JPG)

Having don the above, create an "ON" macro similar to the following.  DO NOT program the lamp to 100%.  Use a level less that 100% on.  Add a timer to the ON macro and you are done.

(http://www.boiler.ucoz.com/Geocities/bsmt_stair.JPG)
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: JeffVolp on August 16, 2008, 03:32:33 PM
Hi Boiler,

Thanks for the detailed info.  Due to migrating hard drives, I have to re-install the AH software.  I'll PM you if I need more info, and will post here when I have some results.

Update:   When sending commands from the PC, the AH log is certainly different when a smart repeater is active.  The lamp module also reacts differently, depending on whether the repeater is a dumb "doublet" repeater or a smart repeater.  It is interesting to note that a similar sequence of bright/dim ramps from the Ocelot produces exactly the same brightness levels from the lamp, regardless of whether the TW523 is running barefoot, with a "doublet" repeater, or a smart repeater.  The AH logs monitoring Ocelot activity are also identical for each configuration.

Update2:   Running the macro in the CM15A rather than through the PC produced exactly the same results in my configuration.  The "doublet" repeater showed only the transmissions in the log.  The smart repeater showed the received commands after two of the transmissions.  That result is 100% repeatable.  AH calculates the lamp intensity based on the sum of the transmitted and received commands, which is wrong.  The lamp only responds to the transmitted commands.

Now, when the lamp module cannot receive the command directly from the CM15A (by running the lamp module through a XPPF X10 filter), it obviously does not respond to direct CM15A commands.  The XTB-IIR punches enough signal through the XPPF for the lamp module to respond.  The macro running through the “doublet” repeater turns on the lamp, but no dimming is evident.  That is because the lamp module is receiving only alternate dim commands, which it interprets as micro-dims.  As I recall, it takes over 100 micro-dims (192?) to ramp the brightness from full on to full off.  Using the smart repeater, the lamp module responds to the “transmitted” commands as before.

At this point I don't understand why the CM15A sees a "received command" due to a smart repeater adding its signal in sync with each of the CM15A transmitted bits for the additional bright/dim commands in a sequence.  The results with the Leviton HCA02 repeater seem to be very similar to those for the XTB-IIR running in the "smart bright/dim repeater" mode.  So, that unit must also solve the micro-dim problem on the phase opposite the CM15A.

It looks like relative dims from the CM15A will be a problem for any repeater that fully repeats a bright/dim sequence.  The option for the XTB-IIR is to plug the CM15A directly into the X10 Boost input.  In that case, the CM15A does not see a repeated version of its own commands, and doesn't get confused.

Update3:  

Just to complete the documentation, the macro sequence I used was:

ON – 5 sec – Dim 61% - 5 sec – Dim 35% - 5 sec – Dim 27%

With the CM15A running barefoot or paired with a dumb "doublet" repeater, the AH log showed:

Transmit ON
Transmit Dim 39%
Transmit Dim 26%
Transmit Dim 8%

When the smart repeater was in the loop, the AH log showed:

Transmit ON
Transmit Dim 39%
Receive Dim 42%
Transmit Bright 16%
(no receive reported)
Transmit Dim 8%
Receive Dim 10%

That intermediate "Transmit Bright" is similar to that reported when using the Leviton HCA02.  After the first dim, the CM15A thinks the brightness is only 19% (100 - 39 - 42), so it must brighten by 16% to achieve the next 35% level.  Note: for all tests the lamp was turned off before triggering the macro so the initial conditions were the same.  In my case, the results were exactly the same when running the macro either via the PC or triggered internally in the CM15A.

Jeff
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Boiler on August 17, 2008, 11:51:36 AM
Jeff,

Thank you for all the effort.  Sounds as if we have some good news and some bad.


Update:   When sending commands from the PC, the AH log is certainly different when a smart repeater is active.  The lamp module also reacts differently, depending on whether the repeater is a dumb "doublet" repeater or a smart repeater.  It is interesting to note that a similar sequence of bright/dim ramps from the Ocelot produces exactly the same brightness levels from the lamp, regardless of whether the TW523 is running barefoot, with a "doublet" repeater, or a smart repeater.  The AH logs monitoring Ocelot activity are also identical for each configuration.

Interesting - How does the Ocelot get around the problem of the "doublet" repeater transmitting micro-dims?  Different command format?

At this point I don't understand why the CM15A sees a "received command" due to a smart repeater adding its signal in sync with each of the CM15A transmitted bits for the additional bright/dim commands in a sequence.  The results with the Leviton HCA02 repeater seem to be very similar to those for the XTB-IIR running in the "smart bright/dim repeater" mode.  So, that unit must also solve the micro-dim problem on the phase opposite the CM15A.

It looks like relative dims from the CM15A will be a problem for any repeater that fully repeats a bright/dim sequence.  The option for the XTB-IIR is to plug the CM15A directly into the X10 Boost input.  In that case, the CM15A does not see a repeated version of its own commands, and doesn't get confused.

The not so good news is that the CM15A is being fooled by the repeated sequence on the opposite phase. 
The good news is that the XTB-IIR boost option drive both phases in parallel, thereby preventing the CM15a from getting confused from seeing it's own commands. 



When the smart repeater was in the loop, the AH log showed:

Transmit ON
Transmit Dim 39%
Receive Dim 42%
Transmit Bright 16%
(no receive reported)
Transmit Dim 8%
Receive Dim 10%

That intermediate "Transmit Bright" is similar to that reported when using the Leviton HCA02.  After the first dim, the CM15A thinks the brightness is only 19% (100 - 39 - 42), so it must brighten by 16% to achieve the next 35% level.  Note: for all tests the lamp was turned off before triggering the macro so the initial conditions were the same.  In my case, the results were exactly the same when running the macro either via the PC or triggered internally in the CM15A.

Here we have a difference.  When I ran from the interface, the CM15a would insert "Bright 100%" commands prior to each dim command.  In doing this the interface was able to get around the problem of the "received dims" because it was resetting the lamp level to 100% each time.  Not sure if this difference is due to the fact that I'm still running Version 3.204


Event    Date/Time    Action    Data
0    08/16/2008 10:52:19 am    Transmit    L10 (Test Macro)
1    08/16/2008 10:52:19 am    Transmit    L On (Test Macro)
2    08/16/2008 10:52:21 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
3    08/16/2008 10:52:21 am    Macro    L On (New Module)
4    08/16/2008 10:52:31 am    Receive    L Dim 47(New Module)
5    08/16/2008 10:52:31 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
6    08/16/2008 10:52:31 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
7    08/16/2008 10:52:31 am    Macro    L Dim 49(New Module)
8    08/16/2008 10:52:41 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
9    08/16/2008 10:52:41 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
10    08/16/2008 10:52:41 am    Macro    L Dim 65(New Module)
11    08/16/2008 10:52:49 am    Receive    L Bright 100(New Module)
12    08/16/2008 10:52:52 am    Receive    L Dim 68(New Module)
13    08/16/2008 10:52:52 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
14    08/16/2008 10:52:52 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
15    08/16/2008 10:52:52 am    Macro    L Dim 69(New Module)
16    08/16/2008 10:53:02 am    Macro    L1 (New Module)
17    08/16/2008 10:53:02 am    Macro    L Bright 100(New Module)
18    08/16/2008 10:53:02 am    Macro    L Dim 73(New Module)


Once again, thank you for confirming the "Dim receive" interaction between smart repeaters and the CM15a and for confirming that the XTB-IIR can boost the CM15a output without inducing this problem.  Very nice device.

Boiler
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: JeffVolp on August 17, 2008, 12:58:41 PM

Update:   When sending commands from the PC, the AH log is certainly different when a smart repeater is active.  The lamp module also reacts differently, depending on whether the repeater is a dumb "doublet" repeater or a smart repeater.  It is interesting to note that a similar sequence of bright/dim ramps from the Ocelot produces exactly the same brightness levels from the lamp, regardless of whether the TW523 is running barefoot, with a "doublet" repeater, or a smart repeater.  The AH logs monitoring Ocelot activity are also identical for each configuration.

Interesting - How does the Ocelot get around the problem of the "doublet" repeater transmitting micro-dims?  Different command format?

The Ocelot has the same problem on the opposite phase with a "doublet" repeater.  But, it is not confused by any "repeated" commands, and sends exactly the same sequence of dims, regardless of whether it is working through a barefoot TW523, or paired with either kind of repeater.  The reason I added the smart repeater capability to the XTB-IIR was a result of the micro-dim problem on the phase opposite the Ocelot.

At this point I don't understand why the CM15A sees a "received command" due to a smart repeater adding its signal in sync with each of the CM15A transmitted bits for the additional bright/dim commands in a sequence.  The results with the Leviton HCA02 repeater seem to be very similar to those for the XTB-IIR running in the "smart bright/dim repeater" mode.  So, that unit must also solve the micro-dim problem on the phase opposite the CM15A.

It looks like relative dims from the CM15A will be a problem for any repeater that fully repeats a bright/dim sequence.  The option for the XTB-IIR is to plug the CM15A directly into the X10 Boost input.  In that case, the CM15A does not see a repeated version of its own commands, and doesn't get confused.

The not so good news is that the CM15A is being fooled by the repeated sequence on the opposite phase. 
The good news is that the XTB-IIR boost option drive both phases in parallel, thereby preventing the CM15a from getting confused from seeing it's own commands.

A repeater will overlay its own output on top of the source signal on both phases.  The CM15A somehow recognizes the repeated commands on its own phase even though they are in bit sync with its own output, and thinks that is another command.  Apparently, it has been programmed to ignore the output of a "doublet" repeater, since that is the version that X10 markets themselves.

(detailed stuff deleted to shorten this post)

Here we have a difference.  When I ran from the interface, the CM15a would insert "Bright 100%" commands prior to each dim command.  In doing this the interface was able to get around the problem of the "received dims" because it was resetting the lamp level to 100% each time.  Not sure if this difference is due to the fact that I'm still running Version 3.204

I installed 3.228 yesterday.  The main difference is that I always preceded the macro (run on the PC or from the CM15A) with an OFF command.  So, AH started every macro cycle from 0%, and the beginning ON always brought the lamp to 100%.  There were no intermediate ramps back up to 100% either from the PC or directly from the CM15A.  If I didn't issue the OFF at the beginning, the results were harder to understand as it ramped from a prior calculated level rather than 0%.

Jeff
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 21, 2008, 01:17:51 AM
Dave and Tom,

What I was trying to say above is that I see "Opposite commands" when I use a Macro or the Module Slider.  When I turn off the Leviton repeater the problem goes away.  Unfortunately, without the repeater I can't reliably transmit to the entire house.

Tom - if you have a repeater, try disabling it and repeating your test. 


Hi Boiler, say you know I do have a repeater a x10 Pro actually but if you're using the software it's just going through the household wiring isn't it can't see who the repeater is involved, but maybe I'm missing something. I don't know what's going on here I just dimmed the hallway lights from 50 to 43 percent and they actually got brighter hmm. Thanks!!

Tom j.
.


Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 25, 2008, 02:53:39 AM
Hi thanks Boiler for the help with the Leviton switches! I plan on trying this right away. But come on guys give me a hand here if you're just trying to adjust the dim level from the software using the sliders with "none for the transceiver house codes checked"  I'm using my Protector Plus to receive my wireless commands. With that setup the repeater wouldn't have any effect on me trying to adjust my dim levels from the software would it?? Like for example if I try to dim from say 50% to 30% it might actually get brighter, this doesn't always happen but enough to be very irritating. Could someone tell me what they thing might be going on here, I hope I've explained it clearly. Just trying to adjust my dim levels from the software with the CM15a connected to the computer via the usb port with would be sending the commands over my house wiring.

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: dave w on August 25, 2008, 12:41:24 PM
With that setup the repeater wouldn't have any effect on me trying to adjust my dim levels from the software would it??
What repeater are you talking about?

If you have the X10 Pro (XPCR) or Leviton PLC repeater(s) Sure it would. The DIMS go through the house wiring, so the repeater would be repeating the sequence and coupling to the other phase. The Leviton and X10 Pro units are notorious for having, or creating problems with DIM and BRI commands.

If you are talking about the SR731 RF repeater, then no, it would only effect DIM or BRI commands from a RF remote like Palm Pad.

As suggested before; disable your repeater and see if you still have the problem.

Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Boiler on August 25, 2008, 05:48:13 PM
Tom,

I apologize - I missed your previous post.

Dave W makes an excellent point - the repeater that we have been referring to is an Active Repeater wired across the phases of your load panel (sometimes referred to as an "Active phase coupler").  I was not referring to a RF repeater.

When using Dim (or bright commands) Active repeaters (phase couplers) appear to confuse AHP.  This can sometimes lead to AHP brightening a lamp when you tell it to dim.

If you have an active repeater (phase coupler), disable it and retry your Dim command test.



Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 26, 2008, 10:13:12 PM
Tom,

I apologize - I missed your previous post.

Dave W makes an excellent point - the repeater that we have been referring to is an Active Repeater wired across the phases of your load panel (sometimes referred to as an "Active phase coupler").  I was not referring to a RF repeater.

When using Dim (or bright commands) Active repeaters (phase couplers) appear to confuse AHP.  This can sometimes lead to AHP brightening a lamp when you tell it to dim.

If you have an active repeater (phase coupler), disable it and retry your Dim command test.





Ooh I see!!! I thought you guys were talking about a RF Repeater. Thanks Boiler!!! Yes I do have a active coupler it's made by Leviton a HCA02-10E  please see link below so you think this might be causing the problem hmm guess I could try to temporarily disable it take a look at the one I have  and tell me what you think. WOW!!! I didn't know that.


http://www.smarthome.com/4823.html

Tom j.


 #:)    :)+
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 26, 2008, 11:48:26 PM
Say Boiler you know I was thinking all my timers work perfectly and I always get the proper dim levels the only time I experence a problem is when I try to manually use the sliders, if it was the coupler repeater wouldn't it also affect the timers as well?? WOW my Leviton switches seem to be working perfectly now! only thing is I sent most back except for a few because I couldn't get them to work tech support didn't even suggest this! just wish I had those other switches got them on sale. rofl (crying!!) Thanks!!

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Boiler on August 27, 2008, 04:00:29 PM
Say Boiler you know I was thinking all my timers work perfectly and I always get the proper dim levels the only time I experence a problem is when I try to manually use the sliders, if it was the coupler repeater wouldn't it also affect the timers as well?? WOW my Leviton switches seem to be working perfectly now! only thing is I sent most back except for a few because I couldn't get them to work tech support didn't even suggest this! just wish I had those other switches got them on sale. rofl (crying!!) Thanks!!

Tom j.

Tom,
I am still running AHP 3.204 and I only see this behavior when sending commands from the PC.  I do not see the problem when macro's are executed from the interface.  The reason for this follows is that the CM15a interface precedes the dim commands with a bright 100% command.  As a result the CM15a is always starting from a 100% reference.

Jeff Volps testing indicated that the problem was present at all times (he's running V3.228).

Glad to hear that your Leviton units are working well now,
Boiler
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 28, 2008, 06:03:10 PM
Boiler So you still think this might be caused by the repeater?? and if so any idea why this is just present from the software and the when a macro is run. Jeff said that the repeater skips alternate bright/dim commands so wouldn't that apply to macros as well as commands sent from the sliders in the software. Or is it because a macro is basically one command and the commands from the sliders are sometimes multiple, just trying to understand. And say Dan one other thing seems like the Leviton switches don't respond to the polling command well at least my 6381's don't do you know if this is supposed to be supported. And would you know if x10 makes any wall switches with AGC (gated automatic gain control) and soft start  seems like the AGC switches respond perfectly from the software! Thanks Dan!! you were way more helpful then tech support.

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: JeffVolp on August 28, 2008, 08:31:15 PM
I repeated the bright/dim macro test I did several weeks ago.  This time I made sure the CM15A macro was indeed running just on the CM15A by disconnecting the USB connector.  In that case the macro did brighten the light to 100% before setting each level, which is the same result reported by Boiler.  Interestingly, I now receive the same result even with the USB connected.  I see the Bright 100% logged before each Dim command.

I apparently left the "Run from PC" box checked when I tried that test previously because I obtained the same result whether triggering the macro from the AH screen, or via a X10 powerline command with the PC connected to the CM15A.  If I check that box now, I see the doubled commands that I reported last time.

Jeff
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 28, 2008, 10:19:13 PM
I repeated the bright/dim macro test I did several weeks ago.  This time I made sure the CM15A macro was indeed running just on the CM15A by disconnecting the USB connector.  In that case the macro did brighten the light to 100% before setting each level, which is the same result reported by Boiler.  Interestingly, I now receive the same result even with the USB connected.  I see the Bright 100% logged before each Dim command.

I apparently left the "Run from PC" box checked when I tried that test previously because I obtained the same result whether triggering the macro from the AH screen, or via a X10 powerline command with the PC connected to the CM15A.  If I check that box now, I see the doubled commands that I reported last time.

Jeff

Hi Jeff say where is that "Run from PC" I don't see it I would have thought it would had been under "Hardware Configuration" but that really resolved all you problems concerning this? Thanks

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: JeffVolp on August 28, 2008, 11:18:49 PM
Hi Jeff say where is that "Run from PC" I don't see it I would have thought it would had been under "Hardware Configuration" but that really resolved all you problems concerning this? Thanks

There is a checkbox in the macro editor that selects whether the macro is downloaded or run from the PC.  I probably missed changing that after the first test when I downloaded the program to the CM15A.  That explains why my results were the same in both configurations for that earlier test.  Even though the macro was triggered via a powerline command, it was apparently still running on the PC.

Jeff
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 30, 2008, 10:20:45 PM
Hi Jeff say where is that "Run from PC" I don't see it I would have thought it would had been under "Hardware Configuration" but that really resolved all you problems concerning this? Thanks

There is a checkbox in the macro editor that selects whether the macro is downloaded or run from the PC.  I probably missed changing that after the first test when I downloaded the program to the CM15A.  That explains why my results were the same in both configurations for that earlier test.  Even though the macro was triggered via a powerline command, it was apparently still running on the PC.

Jeff

OK never looked there. Thanks Jeff and I'm so happy I can use my Leviton switches why hasn't x10 updated the software with the extended commands they list these switches as being supported. I even talked to a vice president and he didn't have a clue as to why they didn't work!

Tom j.

Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on August 30, 2008, 10:33:04 PM
Say Boiler you know I was thinking all my timers work perfectly and I always get the proper dim levels the only time I experence a problem is when I try to manually use the sliders, if it was the coupler repeater wouldn't it also affect the timers as well?? WOW my Leviton switches seem to be working perfectly now! only thing is I sent most back except for a few because I couldn't get them to work tech support didn't even suggest this! just wish I had those other switches got them on sale. rofl (crying!!) Thanks!!

Tom j.

Tom,
I am still running AHP 3.204 and I only see this behavior when sending commands from the PC.  I do not see the problem when macro's are executed from the interface.  The reason for this follows is that the CM15a interface precedes the dim commands with a bright 100% command.  As a result the CM15a is always starting from a 100% reference.

Jeff Volps testing indicated that the problem was present at all times (he's running V3.228).

Glad to hear that your Leviton units are working well now,
Boiler

Hi Boiler! Sorry just saw this, let me look it over I might have another question, wait I think I have one so if you try to control your lights from the sliders inside the software itself for example if I have A1 for example and go from off to 50% and then try to go to lets say 30% the software will try to brighten to 100% first and that's why instead of dimming it brightens, kind of confused. So is this a hardware problem or software or possibly both. Thanks!!

Tom j.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: Brian H on August 31, 2008, 07:35:46 AM
Many of the X10 dimming modules start at 100%. Then dim down. I believe it is a hardware thing in the modules themselves.
Title: Re: Dimming & brightening Commands From Software
Post by: tom j on September 03, 2008, 11:12:11 PM
Thanks guys! you know I don't have any problems with the Leviton switches with AGC when I followed Boiler recommendation and used the 2 way light module with the extended command set those two work perfectly!! Only the x10 decorator switches without AGC give me problems, and I did see that when you first turn them on from off to say 50% it quickly jumps to 100 then down to 50% only after I try a couple of times with the same switch does it appear to get confused, so do you guys still think this is a result of the repeater or is this just the nature of the switches themselves seems like if it was the repeater it would also affect the Leviton. Guess I'll have to get more Leviton switches but I just wish they would give you the option not to use the memory function. Still don't understand why x10 doest support the extended command set for the Leviton switches, anyone have a clue??


Tom j.