X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: stefanis on September 04, 2008, 02:50:48 PM
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So I just got four new WS467's to replace ones that have worn out. When I turned them on for the first time all of them only came on half way. So I turned them off, and I noticed that they faded out. Odd, I thought. So I looked at the documentation that came with the switches to see if I had done something wrong. Nope. And there was no mention of "soft start" in the paperwork. The old switches that were worn out had to be pressed really hard and sometime held in for a bit, so I decided to do the same thing with the new one, thinking that maybe the switches weren't wornout, maybe it had something to do with the lamp or gang box or something. Then the light brightened. AHA I discovered that there there was something new added to the switches. Cool beans, I like free new features.
BUT ???
Now that I have lived with it for a week, I hate it. My five-year-old is forever tapping the button because he things that the lights are not turning on because of the slow ramp up time. My wife kind of double clicks and ends up resetting the brightness level to 50%. I just want a switch that turns the lights on and off.
I'm a software nerd, I don't know nuthin' 'bout rewiring no circuits. :-[ So, have any of the EE's out there figured out how to disable soft start, I know that you could add local dim to the old WS467's by cracking it open and removing parts, so is there a way to add parts to take the local dim away?
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No, there is no "hack". The ramp is internal to the controller chip, so you are stuck. However the good news is you have local dimming and AGC. You might find older switches on eBay. Or you might find some one on the forum who would trade you old switches for your new ones. Personally I love the ramp. It should greatly extend bulb life, and eliminate switch failure when a bulb burns out when first turned on.
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I agree there is no hardware hack that is known to stop the soft start. I believe it is part of the firmware programed into the micrcontroller IC used to run the switch.
The X10Pro version XPD3 wall switch; with soft start; booklet only give the way to always start at 100% but sounds like your wife and 5 year old have both reset things.
The booklet says hold the button until the light is full on; before releasing the button. Easily easily reset to other levels.
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SOFT START in some of my rooms is crazy to me too! Walking into a dark room while the light FINALLY turns on is in fact dangerous too!
I wish there was a hack of some sort without having to search for old versions somewhere.
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Has something changed in Softstart??? On my Softstart wall switches; tap the button on the switch, and from OFF to full bright is about one second at most.
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The soft start switches in question. Are they X10/X10Pro or another brand where the ramp rate can be adjusted? I have seen some that can be set real slow. Like I believe 7 minutes? :'
I don't have soft start wall switches but have the lamp modules. Mine ar at most 2 seconds. Off to on or on to off.
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These are the standard push button X10.com switches. They take about 3 seconds to brighten or dim. I've gotten used to it, don't really like it, but I can now unconsciouly turn the light on without mucking it up. My five year old, on the other hand, thinks that if the light doesn't come on right away, he has to press it again, which then resets the brightness level. My wife feels the need to hold button in until the light is all the way on. I guess that works too, but if you let go early, that too resets the level.
What would really be nice is if we could pull the control chip and either replace it or reflash it. So back to the embedded guys, go any ideas?
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I believe Soft Start was added when X10 redesigned the PCB for more accessable microcontrollers. I think DIP style is getting harder to find and went to surface mounted.
I also believe that they are using mask programed chips that are programed by the factory and can not be reflashed.
Now if it was an Insteon device most have a programming set of pads on the PCB. Just that Smarthome has on intention of letting anyone update firmware in the field. ::)
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What would really be nice is if we could pull the control chip and either replace it or reflash it. So back to the embedded guys, go any ideas?
You can do nothing from an X10 stand point. They are what they are.
Look in to PCS or Smarthome brand scene switches which have programmable ramp rates.
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I hate to be a troll, but it's time to resurrect this thread. I tried putting up with this SoftStart "feature: as long as
I could, but enough was enough.
I originally had traditional WS467 type wall switches, the older units without softstart. During a room upgrade, we
switched to Decora style switches, so I replace the units with WS12's. Unfortunately, and unannounced to me,
these new switches came with the SoftStart "feature". I tried putting up them them, but couldn't get use to them.
The on-delay is a little disconcerting, but the ease with which they could get double tapped and thus "stuck" at
some dim level was too much to put up with.
I was able to solve the problem however!
Fortunately, I had kept my old switches around for some future purpose.
I simply unclipped the electronics from the metal wall plate of the old switches
(this also requires removal of the screw that holds the output transistor to the
heatsink), and swapped the new metal plates & plastic linkages onto the
old electronics. The whole procedure took less than 5 minutes per switch.
The bigger pain uninstalling/reinstalling them into the wall.
In any case, Voila! Now I have switches that work the way I want.
Not sure what I will do when one of the old switches fail, but that's a problem for another day.
P.S. I also swapped the new electronics onto the old metal wall plates (the ones that are not recessed and lack
the plastic linkages). Anybody want a deal on these :-) ?!
-Bob
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Wow, I guess you really do consider SoftStart to be a giant pain. I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat. (PS for you PETA-ites, I love cats, but the expression fits).
FWIW I like SoftStart. It should increase bulb life and a side benefit, it dramatically reduces the chances of a bulb burnout shorting out the switches triac when the filament breaks.
Anywho, I commend your tenacity.
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If you really don't like the soft start, you can swap them out with WS13A, which is appliance module, can not soft start.
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The only downside to the WS13As is the annoying click that some people cannot tolerate. I have seen hacks out there for standard appliance modules for installing SSRs (Solid State Relays), but I don't know that I have seen these hacks done on a WS13A as I don't know if there is enough space in the case. SSRs eliminate the annoying click that you get from the appliance modules, but SSRs can be expensive. If you are handy with a soldering iron, this guy shows how to make a cheap pseudo SSR using an opto-isolator and a triac (http://hackaday.com/2007/12/19/silent-x10-mod-cheap-ssr/). ***WARNING*** If you mod the WS13A with the triac based SSR, it will then be subject to load restrictions similar to the lamp modules. Do not attempt to use this on an appliance as you may risk burning the triac. Also I am not sure how well it would work with a fluorescent light.
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The WS13A also needs a Neutral Power connection in the switch box.
The WS467 steals power through the load so not having a Neutral is not a problem.
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I have seen hacks out there for standard appliance modules for installing SSRs (Solid State Relays), but I don't know that I have seen these hacks done on a WS13A as I don't know if there is enough space in the case.
Dan,
I think the hack is for putting an SSR in a lamp module to make it a "silent Appliance Module".
The WS13, Appliance Module, etc. turns ON and OFF by gating a SCR half cycle pulse through a solenoid latching relay. I don't think there is a source of constant drive to keep the SSR gated ON in any of the "clunking" X10 modules.
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I have seen hacks out there for standard appliance modules for installing SSRs (Solid State Relays), but I don't know that I have seen these hacks done on a WS13A as I don't know if there is enough space in the case.
Dan,
I think the hack is for putting an SSR in a lamp module to make it a "silent Appliance Module".
The WS13, Appliance Module, etc. turns ON and OFF by gating a SCR half cycle pulse through a solenoid latching relay. I don't think there is a source of constant drive to keep the SSR gated ON in any of the "clunking" X10 modules.
The article mentions "If you’ve got a non-dimming X10 switch, you’ve experienced the incredibly loud, obnoxious sound that it makes when you switch it on or off". I took the description of the loud obnoxious sound to mean that it was an X10 appliance type switch. I don't recall if the ones in my kitchen are WS13s or not, but I think they are, and they have an LED on them that stays lit when the switch is on. This tells me that there IS some kind of constant drive that could be used with the opto isolator.
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The article mentions "If you’ve got a non-dimming X10 switch, you’ve experienced the incredibly loud, obnoxious sound that it makes when you switch it on or off". I took the description of the loud obnoxious sound to mean that it was an X10 appliance type switch. I don't recall if the ones in my kitchen are WS13s or not, but I think they are, and they have an LED on them that stays lit when the switch is on. This tells me that there IS some kind of constant drive that could be used with the opto isolator.
Sure sounds like a WS13A! I stand corrected.
You are right, they could drive the SSR from the LED.
If you find the article, could you post the link? Thanks!
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I also believe the WS13A has an Active LED. I know the X10Pro XPS3 version has one.
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/xps3.pdf
I have also seen the SSR added to a Lamp Module mod and have done a few older revision modules myself.
The new Soft Start ones are very different. Including the power supply being around five volts. Not even regulated by a Zener any more. Just a smaller value cap and larger resistor in series with the AC input. In fact when you turn the Triac On the voltage drops from the small extra current driving the gate. The coil that is connected from the Neutral In to Neutral Out in the old ones. Is now in the output side of the triac to the Line Out of the module.
The coil in the Applance module is about 50 Ohms. One hefty pulse when the AC is triggered On to it by the SCR.
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The Leviton relay wall switches I use just make a barely audible click when turning on or off.
I use the older "red line" 16293, but the newer "green line" switches probably behave the same.
Jeff
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I have a number of Insteon Switchlinc and ToggleLinc switches. The click on those is barely audible, to me at least.
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Yes they are very quiet compared to the X10 ratchet switch.
The dimmers can have their ramp rate set to .2 seconds to I believe 8 minutes.
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I only have two Smarthome ToggleLinc dimmers. They are actually older (pre-insteon) ones. I never use them for dimming (intentionally, that is). At some point, I'll probably replace them with Insteon non-dimming switches, so I can use CFL's in those fixtures (recessed spots in my living room ceiling).
I also have one pair of non-dimming pre-insteon ToggleLinc switches (it is actually a "main" switch and a "remote" switch - used to replace a pair of 3-way switches). Those are silent (at least I can't detect a click at all - I don't know if they had a relay, or used solid-state components)
I have four Insteon ToggleLincs, and two Inseton SwitchLincs, all of which have the barely audible click (which doesn't bother me - in fact it is helpful audible confirmation when I'm testing stuff, since four of the switches control outdoor lights)