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🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: axgupta1 on November 23, 2008, 06:58:42 PM

Title: Extending remote control range
Post by: axgupta1 on November 23, 2008, 06:58:42 PM
I read this article on http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Improving_Remote_Control_Range which recommends installing another TM751 or RR501 transceiver which will transmit rf signal to CM15A. The impression I got from reading this forum was that having CM15A and another RR501/TM751 transceiving on the same housecode is a bad idea.

Question is can I install a RR501/TM751 in addition to CM15A to improve the range of remote?

Thanks...
Arun
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: HA Dave on November 23, 2008, 07:35:26 PM

Question is can I install a RR501/TM751 in addition to CM15A to improve the range of remote?


Sure you can. Just be sure that the CM15A doesn't transceive whatever code the transceiver is set on. Or only set the CM15A to transceive codes that you don't have a TM751 set on. The use of the RR501 is different. The RR501 is called a polite transceiver and will listen and wait. They are easier to intergrate into a system.

The problem with the CM15A is its range can be less than desireable in many setups. There are many different modifications posted here for extending the RF receiving range of the CM15A. As far as I know they all work. I did a quick easy mod on my CM15A and it works great now. Since I use several House codes in my setup... it just wouldn't be practical to plug in a bunch of RR501's or TM751's all around the house.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: axgupta1 on November 23, 2008, 07:59:54 PM
I did see the mods but could not figure out which one is good or bad. Can you please tell which one you did? I also want the CM15A to look nice with the modification in place as it is installed in a prominent place in the house. Is there any kind of frequency matching requirements for the antenna?

Many thanks for quick reply...
Arun
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: HA Dave on November 23, 2008, 11:25:42 PM
I did see the mods but could not figure out which one is good or bad. Can you please tell which one you did? I also want the CM15A to look nice with the modification in place as it is installed in a prominent place in the house. Is there any kind of frequency matching requirements for the antenna?

I snapped the tip off the end of my plastic antenna.... and taped and soldered on a 9 1/2 inch wire. Took 5 minutes and cost nothing... my CM15A isn't easily seen. I may someday do the mod where the CM15A's case is opened up and a TM751's antenna is used [to replace the plastic one]. I think that mod would both work well... and look professionally done.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: axgupta1 on November 24, 2008, 04:01:09 AM
This is great. I can gently saw off the plastic tip, solder extra length of wire, cover it with something like a nice plastic straw. The straw can be changed if it gets damaged.

Thanks...
Arun
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: PajamaGuy on November 24, 2008, 05:37:11 AM
Heads-up! Be gentle - when I did this mod, I had to "melt" some of the glue that was in the tube, and the hobby shop had the plastic tubing. 
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Brian H on November 24, 2008, 06:45:32 AM
I also used a plastic tube used in hobby models.  ;D
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: axgupta1 on November 24, 2008, 05:58:48 PM
I will be extra careful. Thanks for the heads-up.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: PajamaGuy on November 25, 2008, 07:44:48 AM
Just another $0.02 - Doing the solder a 9½" piece of wire mod was at least as much a pain as was doing the "F" mod.  Having said that, I'd still recommend the antenna extension, and if it works, stop there.

I did the 9½" extension, and my CM15A worked very well, but from one specific location only.  And (IMHO) with better reception comes more RF interference - especially from the computer room/office.

2 weekends ago, I did the "F" mod.  It was pretty darn easy.  But if you're going to do it, these instructions are the best I've found: http://www.accessha.com/howto_fconnector_page1.html

And as a cautionary note:  I found (after doing the MOD) that not all coax is equal.  I had some pieces that would flat-out not work - as in no signal - sometimes better reception with nothing attached to the CM15's F-connector.  So my advice is, try different pieces of COAX.  And mine seems to work best with WGL Designs antenna kit for the V572.

After doing the Mod- i am able to shut-off one repeater!   Yea!!!

Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: axgupta1 on November 25, 2008, 06:55:34 PM
The F-connector mod is not that bad. I will do that once I decide on what kind of antenna I will use.

Thanks...
Arun
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Brian H on November 26, 2008, 06:57:59 AM
I have also used an antenna from a WGL V572 kit as a test for my CM15A with F Connector.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: axgupta1 on November 26, 2008, 07:04:19 AM
I looked at the website but could not find the WGL V572 antenna being sold separately. Can you please let me know where you got the antenna from?

Thanks...
Arun
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: PajamaGuy on November 26, 2008, 07:38:40 AM
At the bottom of this page: http://www.wgldesigns.com/w800.html

...but it looks like $22.18 with shipping & tax delivered to me.  With no offense to WGL Designs intended, that's a bit expensive.  I believe I can duplicate it by using a male-male F connector, and a 9½" piece of copper/brass rod (hobby shop) that will push into one end.  The bracket is a simple "L" shape with one hole for the F-connector, and 2 for screws.  Add some heat-shrink and if you have some RJ-6, you're done.

I'm going to try it anyway -   >!

Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: HA Dave on November 26, 2008, 09:10:59 AM
I'm going to try it anyway

Do keep us informed PajamaGuy! Not only is following along with your upgrade informative and helpful for anyone else considering improving their X10 setup.... it's also entertaining to us regular readers here.

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Brian H on November 26, 2008, 04:36:16 PM
I took the one from my V572A as a test.
Now that my automation is a mix of protocols. I mainly only use an ACT CR134 Coupler repeater for my X10 signals. Along with a RR501 and a few RF remotes.
The CM15A and AHP are used only for tests and trying to answer questions here.
Title: Yer NOT gonna believe this!!!!
Post by: PajamaGuy on November 27, 2008, 08:12:29 AM
It's Thanksgiving - the Hobby Shop is closed.  Then it dawned on me that I have a piece of coat-hanger in my desk drawer.  One of those brass-gold colored, fairly sturdy coat hangers.

Well GUESS WHAT!?!?!?!!?-:)
It fits perfectly into a double-male F-Connector!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)%

(Just saved $22)


Happy Thanksgiving! >!
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Brian H on November 27, 2008, 09:14:14 AM
Looks neat.
One thing. Was it early when you got this thought? Isn't the F connector a double female?  rofl
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: dave w on November 27, 2008, 09:21:44 AM
PJ Guy

Take some steel wool and polish up those threads a bit to get a better connection. I think it will make a difference.
BTW aren't you supposed to be carving the turkey?  ;D
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: axgupta1 on November 27, 2008, 09:36:55 AM
Some more ideas here:

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=126
http://www.shed.com/tutor/mr26ant.html
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: PajamaGuy on November 27, 2008, 09:42:15 AM
Dave-W - thanks, I just grabbed the closest one - I'll use a new one for the project.

...Brian - it was dark-thirty, but when the threads are on the outside - it's MALE - when the threads are on the inside, it's FEMALE   :'
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: steven r on November 27, 2008, 09:59:40 AM
...Isn't the F connector a double female?  rofl
...Brian - it was dark-thirty, but when the threads are on the outside - it's MALE - when the threads are on the inside, it's FEMALE   :'
Actually I've always heard what you used called a two ended female also.

The male connector is so named for the protruding straight center wire.

e.g. How would you name the slide on connectors that don't have screw threads? Transgender?  :D
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: PajamaGuy on November 27, 2008, 10:01:06 AM
axgupta1 -  And to the other gurus here:

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=126

For the antenna pictured there.  What is the purpose of the 4 antennas on the corners?  If the bulkhead connector is properly seperating the center conductor from the grounding frame, how can the 4-downrods help reception - passive inductance?
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: axgupta1 on November 27, 2008, 10:16:07 AM
My knowledge of antennas is limited to:
a) Bigger the better
b) Place them as high as possible
c) Place them in open air away from any possible source of interference...
 :)

Wish I had taken rf design in electrical engineering....
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: steven r on November 27, 2008, 10:16:47 AM
...What is the purpose of the 4 antennas on the corners?...
My antenna theory is weak but I've seen similar constructed antennas for ham radio. I'll try to remember to look it up in the ARRL handbook.

Ok looking through the handbook and doing a bit of Googling confirmed my memory that this is a form of ground plane antenna.
http://searchmobilecomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid40_gci214329,00.html
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Brian H on November 27, 2008, 02:19:47 PM
Depends I guess on who's description. I have always seen them called reverse of what you have called them.
Anyway the home made one you have given us was a good example of how one can be easily constructed.
Thanks again for your contribution.

Another slightly more complicated one with a set of four ground plane elements can be found here.
http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=126
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: steven r on November 27, 2008, 09:21:27 PM
This ad calls what he used a female to female.
http://www.summitsource.com/barrel-f-type-connector-female-to-female-gold-plated-f81-splice-coupler-2-pack-jointer-adapter-inline-coax-connector-double-female-in-line-audio-video-signal-component-plugs-p-7585.html
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: dave w on November 27, 2008, 09:22:48 PM
axgupta1 -  And to the other gurus here:

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=126

For the antenna pictured there.  What is the purpose of the 4 antennas on the corners?  If the bulkhead connector is properly seperating the center conductor from the grounding frame, how can the 4-downrods help reception - passive inductance?
PJ
They form the "ground plane" for the 1/4 wave length antenna. 1/4 wave antennas need (or "work better with") a ground plane. 1/2 wave antennas do not.  The metal "L" mounting bracket on the WGL units forms a ground plane for the radiating element. If you do not intend on mounting the threaded portion of the female to female "F" connector  :'  in a large metal bracket, then as a test, compare your range using a 9 inch coat hanger (1/4 wave) sans any ground plane, and a 18 inch coat hanger (1/2 wave). My bet is the 18 inch wire will give you greater range.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: PajamaGuy on November 28, 2008, 05:36:00 AM
Brian & Steven - You guys are absolutely correct, anf I am wrong.  A search for "male f-connector" shows that the "union" that I thought was male, is actually a double femalw (as you said).  What's being connected is the center-wire; the 'male' end.  I learned something!  Thanks!

So, how was everyone's Turkey?

And Dave W, thanks for the Ground plane explaination.  So, in my attic where I'm not using a bracket, should I use an 18" piece?   (or 36")
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Brian H on November 28, 2008, 06:20:49 AM
I believe the antenna from the WGL V572 I tried as a test. Uses the mounting bracket as a ground plane.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: dave w on November 28, 2008, 06:24:15 PM
Brian & Steven - You guys are absolutely correct, anf I am wrong.  A search for "male f-connector" shows that the "union" that I thought was male, is actually a double femalw (as you said).  What's being connected is the center-wire; the 'male' end.  I learned something!  Thanks!

So, how was everyone's Turkey?

And Dave W, thanks for the Ground plane explaination.  So, in my attic where I'm not using a bracket, should I use an 18" piece?   (or 36")

18" if no ground.

If it is not difficult you might try a 9" rod also. My "cheap" antenna is nothing more than stripping the shield from the last 18 inches of the coax from the CM15A, leaving the center conductor as the 1/2 wave radiating element. I just ty-wrapped the tip of the center conductor as high on a vertical roofing stud as I could get. In other words, no female to female to female "F" connector or rod. I can hit the CM15 from the road...about 60 feet from the house. Actual range may be more, I just have not tried to find the limit. 
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: BaBaLou. on November 29, 2008, 07:02:25 AM
A grounding plane does or does not matter the form, shape or size as in the case of the tripod antenna or the WGL antenna when using the 9.5 length of antenna?

For one setup, the CM15A Mod is the same as dave w

Using a coax cable stripped at the end to 9.5"/no grounding plane=20' range one directions mainly.

When adding a grounding plane=20'range but all direction.

Then I stripped it up to 18" of exposed coax cable and with or without a grounding plane=Range of remotes and sensors shot up to to 40'+ in most directions. The area is inside
an office building with metal stud walls and that does add a little to the challenge to my business setup.

I did add a passive reflector to DS10A and an Eagle eye just to give me that little bit more of reliability of the setup.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Brian H on November 29, 2008, 08:09:00 AM
Thanks for sharing your findings.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: accord728 on December 10, 2008, 02:20:16 PM
Another option (easier one than moding your CM15a) you may have is to use the SR731-S Smart RF Repeater with the Wireless Transceiver (TM751, which stated in an earlier post). I use all that equipment with my CM15a device and I have no problems with RF signal. Also, playing around with a location with these devices can help significantly. I hope this helps some.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: HA Dave on December 10, 2008, 02:44:43 PM

Then I stripped it up to 18" of exposed coax cable and with or without a grounding plane=Range of remotes and sensors shot up to to 40'+ in most directions.


That report is enough to get me to try the extra length.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: PajamaGuy on December 10, 2008, 03:22:08 PM
Quote
That report is enough to get me to try the extra length.

Me too!

Has anyone found differences in coax?  RG-6/UQ?, RG-59? - etc?

Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: HA Dave on December 10, 2008, 06:03:25 PM
Has anyone found differences in coax?  RG-6/UQ?, RG-59? - etc?

You may want to do some searching on that. My memory says the 75-Ohm cables are better because the RG-59 can cause some sort of reflective interference. However... a quick search didn't confirm my gray-matter reference.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Alan V on December 10, 2008, 06:23:47 PM
Has anyone found differences in coax?  RG-6/UQ?, RG-59? - etc?

You may want to do some searching on that. My memory says the 75-Ohm cables are better because the RG-59 can cause some sort of reflective interference. However... a quick search didn't confirm my gray-matter reference.

If you're using an F-connector then you'll want to use RG-59 cable (which is 75 ohm and well matched to the F-connector).  RG-58 cable is 50 ohm.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Puck on December 10, 2008, 10:18:55 PM
The frontend receiver of the CM15A is 50 Ohms. 1/4 wavelength antennas (single vertical element referenced to a ground plane) are generally ~50 Ohms as well. For optimal signal transfer between the 2, the cable impedance should be the same. Most people have 75 Ohm cable handy (or easier to get) because it is what most all cable companies use. It is not the best for optimal efficiency, but it will work better than no mod to the CM15A. If you have a very long cable run, I'd recommend keeping the impedance matched.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: PajamaGuy on December 11, 2008, 08:46:22 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable

Thanks! - It's a short run, and to maximize WAF, it has to be white - I think I have both RG-6 (what the DirecTv guys use now) and some RG-58 (what they used to use)  Any suggestions on testing/detecting for RF interference from PCs, printers, TVs, or other office equipment?

I know it's weird, but if I hook a 20' cable to my modded CM15a and leave the antenna mounted on the wall, if I then move the CM15a around the room, in certain areas it will NOT receive RF.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: jsnone1 on January 04, 2009, 02:44:59 PM
The frontend receiver of the CM15A is 50 Ohms. 1/4 wavelength antennas (single vertical element referenced to a ground plane) are generally ~50 Ohms as well. For optimal signal transfer between the 2, the cable impedance should be the same. Most people have 75 Ohm cable handy (or easier to get) because it is what most all cable companies use. It is not the best for optimal efficiency, but it will work better than no mod to the CM15A. If you have a very long cable run, I'd recommend keeping the impedance matched.


so will there be any issues using the RG58-50 Ohm with the  F-connector?
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Puck on January 04, 2009, 03:22:34 PM
so will there be any issues using the RG58-50 Ohm with the  F-connector?

There are F-connectors made for various cable sizes, including RG58.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: HA Dave on January 04, 2009, 03:58:04 PM
I know it's weird, but if I hook a 20' cable to my modded CM15a and leave the antenna mounted on the wall, if I then move the CM15a around the room, in certain areas it will NOT receive RF.

That doesn't sound right... except for maybe a kink in the 20' cable... location should I would think... be indifferent.
Title: Re: Extending remote control range
Post by: Brian H on January 04, 2009, 06:32:27 PM
At the 310 MHz X10 uses. The difference between RG59U and the RG6U/QS [QS quad shielded] would not make much difference. The RG6U/Q quad shielded stuff is rated in the multi GHz. range and is use in things like Digital Cable TV and Satellite Dish stuff.

I would double check your coax if moving it around to some places kills the reception. maybe the center conductor is shorted to the shield. That braided stuff only needs one barely visible strand to touch the wrong thing to make a short.