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💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: grizzlyone on February 26, 2009, 11:36:07 PM

Title: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: grizzlyone on February 26, 2009, 11:36:07 PM
Ok folks, I'm just looking for a simple on/off sprinkler control that you hook up to a regular old garden hose spigot.

I've been looking at the orbit automated systems and I've been checking out the extra valve for their automated sprinkler system. They cost about $15

http://www.smarthome.com/3106V/Extra-Valve-for-Yard-Watering-System-62035/p.aspx (http://www.smarthome.com/3106V/Extra-Valve-for-Yard-Watering-System-62035/p.aspx)

It connects up to a regular hose connection and has what looks like a stereo plug connector that plugs into a separate timer unit.

How possible do the gurus think it would be to cut the connector off the end and connect this to a UM506 universal module?


I can't find any specs on the valve, but the timer it plugs and turns on the valve into is powered by 3 AA batteries....


Kevin
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: HA Dave on February 27, 2009, 12:04:49 AM
Ok folks, I'm just looking for a simple on/off sprinkler control that you hook up to a regular old garden hose spigot.I've been looking at the orbit automated systems and I've been checking out the extra valve for their automated sprinkler system. They cost about $15

http://www.smarthome.com/3106V/Extra-Valve-for-Yard-Watering-System-62035/p.aspx (http://www.smarthome.com/3106V/Extra-Valve-for-Yard-Watering-System-62035/p.aspx)

It connects up to a regular hose connection and has what looks like a stereo plug connector that plugs into a separate timer unit. How possible do the gurus think it would be to cut the connector off the end and connect this to a UM506 universal module? I can't find any specs on the valve, but the timer it plugs and turns on the valve into is powered by 3 AA batteries....

Looks very doable to me!!! I wouldn't even cut the wire... I would pickup a female end at radioshack... and wire the Universal module to it.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: steven r on February 27, 2009, 12:44:03 AM
...I've been looking at the orbit automated systems and I've been checking out the extra valve for their automated sprinkler system...
http://www.smarthome.com/3106V/Extra-Valve-for-Yard-Watering-System-62035/p.aspx (http://www.smarthome.com/3106V/Extra-Valve-for-Yard-Watering-System-62035/p.aspx)

...How possible do the gurus think it would be to cut the connector off the end and connect this to a UM506 universal module?
I can't find any specs on the valve, but the timer it plugs and turns on the valve into is powered by 3 AA batteries....
I suspect that the timer supplies a small voltage that triggers a solenoid valve in the unit. If so, a simple connection to the UM506 universal module won't work.

You may need to have the UM506 universal module trigger a voltage to the unit.

In any case, as Dave_x10_L suggested, do not cut off the plug end of the units. It will void their warranties. Using a simple female plug will make the install neater also.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: Brian H on February 27, 2009, 06:56:43 AM
The controller for the extra valve you linked to. Runs on three AA batteries. So I would say 3 to 4.5 volts for the valves power.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: grizzlyone on February 27, 2009, 08:36:47 AM
Since the UM506 doesn't provide power (Thanks for the info guys), I was figuring a small battery pack attached could do the same. Now I just need to see if it's a simple toggle (on/off) or something else.

I'm calling orbit today. If this works, you can pretty well do this on the cheap since the extra valves cost about $15 each. Another couple bucks for a battery pack and the UM506 and you are golden..

I'll keep everyone informed. These valves and sprinkler kits are supposed to be available at Lowes, Home Depot and Crafty Beaver in my area. Also I've seen them on ebay as well.

Kevin
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: JeffVolp on February 27, 2009, 08:59:19 AM
Years ago I did a kludge sprinkler controller using an ordinary 24VAC sprinkler valve with the appropriate hose adapters.  Control was via X10 using a 24V "wall wart" transformer plugged into an appliance module.  It was cheap and easy, and it got the job done.  It kept the garden from drying out while we were gone.

Jeff
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: steven r on February 27, 2009, 09:33:37 AM
...I'm calling orbit today. If this works, you can pretty well do this on the cheap since the extra valves cost about $15 each. Another couple bucks for a battery pack and the UM506 and you are golden....
I'd avoid the battery pack idea and take an approach like JeffVolp is suggesting.
i.e. A DC power supply, wall wart, plugged into an appliance module.

The real trick is figuring out the actual voltage that you need. You don't know how voltage sensitive the values are and how much of the 4.5V (3 x 1.5) that the controller normally would send to the valve.

Also while you're visiting Radio Shack for parts, pick up an inline fuse also.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: steven r on February 27, 2009, 10:16:01 AM
Looking at the manual (http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/62032english.pdf) for the timer, I found this manufacture contact information. They should be able to to give you voltage specifications.

OrbitŪ Irrigation Products Inc.
845 N. Overland Rd.
North Salt Lake, Utah 84054 USA
http://www.orbitonline.com
800-488-6156
801-299-5555

Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: grizzlyone on February 27, 2009, 11:15:48 AM
ok, their response was:

13V DC
22ms pulse
1-2Amps

Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: dave w on February 27, 2009, 12:07:30 PM
13V ??

That is kind of interesting...and strange. Where is the 13V coming from? Are they discharging a cap from the contoller to actuate the valve(?) retorical question.

If Orbits information is correct, it would be much easier to go the Jeff Volp route and find a 12 or 24 V valve and wall wart. Probably be a good idea to ensure the outlet powering the Universal Module and the wall-wart is on a GFI.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: grizzlyone on February 27, 2009, 12:25:53 PM
It seemed weird to me too. I asked the lady twice, I pointed out that there was only 3 AA batteries there and she confirmed it.

I may just pick up a kit and see what kind of voltage is coming out of it.


Kevin
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: steven r on February 27, 2009, 06:01:20 PM
...Where is the 13V coming from? Are they discharging a cap from the contoller to actuate the valve(?) retorical question....
It seemed weird to me too. I asked the lady twice, I pointed out that there was only 3 AA batteries there and she confirmed it.
I may just pick up a kit and see what kind of voltage is coming out of it...
Interesting indeed. The plot thickens. Maybe a pulse through a step up transformer.
If it's triggered by a pulse, then the valve must have some sort of stepping latch.
Hmm... How does it know open from closed? Is there a different pulse to close the value. Maybe you could reverse the pulse.
I'd really like to see the insides of one now.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: Jsnlong on February 27, 2009, 10:52:40 PM
I really don't think its 13vdc but hey I guess they could have done it the hard way lol Has to be something holding a big charger in the timer then!!

I was doing some checking and found that this valve is a latching valve so most likely you will need a on and off signal??

I was also reading over at cocoontech about this same topic and in it they mention doing this very thing even with this valve. The guys who tried it acted like it was alittle more then a Universal module but then again  read it close cause one guy didn't really know what he was doing and couldn't get it to work. But the guy huggy59 on page 5 of the post said he has one and explained how he thought it ran.
http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=7980&st=75

I would go with the plug in  power supply so you wont need any "charge pump" as the guy on cocoon tech put it.

Good luck
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: Brian H on February 28, 2009, 06:18:02 AM
Gee if it is a 13 volt latching valve. They could be charging a cap as mentioned and hitting it with a pulse.  ::)
Guess it could get stuck ON if your Batteries died while it was in the on position.  rofl
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: steven r on February 28, 2009, 11:20:09 PM
...Guess it could get stuck ON if your Batteries died while it was in the on position.  rofl
True but I believe there is a low battery warning and don't think that the system, as designed, has much chance of failing open. On the other hand, I wouldn't bet against it failing open once you get X10 controlling it!

I'm beginning to believe to make this project work you would need at least to see the controlling circuit to build your own or hack the original one. If I ended up needing to buy the controller, I would most likely end up deciding the sprinkler control was then to be a non-X10 automated item. i.e. This just might be better done without X10.

That said, I still am curious as to how the circuit works.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: Knightrider on February 28, 2009, 11:38:37 PM
It's kinda like my pool fill thing.  I use an old washing machine solenoid valve attached to an appliance module.
You can get these from just about any appliance repair shop for just about next to nothing.  You can also use the water valves from dishwashers and ice makers.  They need a custom designed enclosure and a GFCI.

You are dealing with 120 and water which don't mix well, so be careful.  Also, if you use the washing machine valve, you'll need to cap off the output somehow and wire up both valves to open.

Just be careful and safe!!!!!

I'd also check that you have a valve designed for the voltage you are using.  I have yet to see a washing machine valve run on anything other than 120, but times change.  I also had to isolate mine with a relay to keep the valve from triggering the local sensing circuitry, but a night light would do the same.

Keep it dry and protected!!!!!!!   This is not a hack for a novice.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: DChisholm on July 01, 2009, 01:51:39 AM
OK, this thread has been dormant for over 4 months so maybe I'm in line for some kind of "Thread Necromancer" award.

I recently hacked one of those Orbit p/n62035 solenoid valves in conjunction with a small consulting project.  The details are in my notes (back at the office tonight) but I have verified (by measurement) some of the speculation in this thread.

1.  The valve's water flow is unidirectional.  The water outlet can NOT be effectively exchanged with the water inlet.  Also, the valve's elastic diaphragm apparently uses the supply pressure to provide some kind of "servo action".  Consequently, determining the "open" or "closed" status of the valve by using your mouth to blow through the thing may only give you a headache and some inconclusive results.  It needs some supply-side water pressure before you can actually observe results!

2.  The valve actually has TWO solenoid coils.  One is pulsed to open the valve; the other is pulsed to close the valve.  (I don't recall which is wired to the tip of the phone plug and which goes to the ring.  A quick experiment with a pair of 9V batteries can answer this question.)  However, I was able to CLOSE the valve by applying a reverse-polarity pulse to the OPEN coil and vice versa.  I don't know if this is an intended mode of operation, or if it could eventually damage the valve, etc.

3.  The two coils have very different electrical characteristics.  The "Valve OPEN" coil has about 4 ohms of DC resistance and a few dozen millihenries of inductance.  The "Valve CLOSE" coil has only about 1 ohm of DC resistance and a few millihenries of inductance.

4.  The Timer/Controller box operates the valves by charging a 2200 uF capacitor up to about 17 volts, then discharging it through the selected solenoid coil for 20 mSec. 

5.  The 17V is created by some kind of switching supply shortly before being discharged through the solenoid.  You can see the saw-tooth ramp on the 17V rail.

6.  When the Timer/Controller turns a valve OFF, it first operates the "Valve ON" coil, then recharges the capacitor and operates the "Valve OFF" coil.  This all happens in about 100 mSec, so an end-user wouldn't be aware of the multiple pulsing.   I don't know why the "OFF" sequence is done like this.  I could speculate that the diaphragm might take a "set" while the valve is OPEN ("ON"), and the initial "Valve ON" pulse is intended to dislodge the "set" and ensure a good seal when the "Valve OFF" pulse is executed.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: Brian H on July 01, 2009, 06:43:23 AM
 #:) Thank you for the detailed tests.
They will be a great help to many with thoughts of sprinkler controls.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: DChisholm on July 01, 2009, 12:34:41 PM
Here's the electrical details.  Note that what I previously remembered about coil inductance is off by an order of magnitude:

The "Valve-OPEN" (Water-ON) coil connects to the phone plug's ring terminal and opens the valve when the shell is positive with respect to the ring.  (As I noted above, reversing this polarity will CLOSE the valve but I don't know if that's recommended.)  I measure 4.0 ohms of DC resistance in series with 4.5 mHy of inductance.  The measured duration of the actuation pulse is 22 mSec.

The "Valve-CLOSE" (Water-OFF) coil connects to the phone plug's tip terminal and closes the valve when a current pulse flows from shell to tip.  (Again, reversing this polarity will OPEN the valve.)  I measure 1.2 ohms of DC resistance in series with 37 uHy of inductance.  The measured duration of the actuation pulse is also 22 mSec.  However, there appears to be some kind of current limiting in the Timer/Control box that keeps this current under an amp or so.

The freewheel (kickback) diodes are located in the Timer/Control unit, not the solenoid valve itself.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: Brian H on July 01, 2009, 04:10:22 PM
Thanks again for the updated details.
Title: Re: Sprinkler Thoughts
Post by: DChisholm on July 01, 2009, 04:36:02 PM
The bad thing about this valve, for the project I was considering, is there is no electrical read-back of its present state.  There's no (electrical) way to tell if it's OPEN or CLOSED.  Even if you deliberately pulse it to one state or the other, there's no confirmation that the operation was successful.  It would help if there was an auxiliary contact, or a pressure differential switch, to tell you which state the valve is latched into.