X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: Brandt on February 02, 2010, 03:00:51 PM

Title: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: Brandt on February 02, 2010, 03:00:51 PM
I could see with all the MS14a's and DS10a's I was planning to scatter around the house how changing batteries just wouldn't fly.

Any one have any suggestions on how to 'wire' these for a permanent non-bothersome use?
Title: Re: Changing batterires = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: dave w on February 02, 2010, 04:57:10 PM
Batteries should last a year under average service. Otherwise you could use 3V DC adapters (which are hard to find). I found some surplus-ed Radio Shack Nintendo Gameboy 120V adaptors for $1.49 each at http://www.goldmine-elec.com/ but I believe they have sold out. Might try a Google search.
Title: Re: Changing batterires = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: Brandt on February 02, 2010, 06:13:34 PM
ugh i hate wal warts even more than changing batteries....I was thinking that if I was going to run a wire for power that using a DS10a would be pointless, because at that point I might as well run wires for power and signal. But then if the signal was wired, i'd have to have an individual powerflash for each one
Title: Re: Changing batterires = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: bitman on February 02, 2010, 06:35:29 PM
= Low Alpha Male approval too.

Why does my $6.96 multi remote from walmart hold the codes while I change the batteries but a ms1x can't.

Can I add a cap to these to give me a little time?
Title: Re: Changing batterires = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: dave w on February 02, 2010, 08:09:02 PM
= Low Alpha Male approval too.

Why does my $6.96 multi remote from walmart hold the codes while I change the batteries but a ms1x can't.

Can I add a cap to these to give me a little time?
Bits you are a genius

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/CBC-17/1-FARAD-5.5-VOLT-SUPER-CAP-/-/1.html

A one farad cap would run a MS14 about a day!  rofl

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/CBC-20/0.33-FARAD-5.5-VOLT-CAPACITOR/1.html

Back in tech school days we were told a one farad capacitor would be the size of a house...'course they were still teaching cathod, grid, plate, back then also.  :D
Title: Re: Changing batterires = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: bitman on February 02, 2010, 10:00:14 PM
= Low Alpha Male approval too.

Why does my $6.96 multi remote from walmart hold the codes while I change the batteries but a ms1x can't.

Can I add a cap to these to give me a little time?
Bits you are a genius

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/CBC-17/1-FARAD-5.5-VOLT-SUPER-CAP-/-/1.html

A one farad cap would run a MS14 about a day!  rofl


http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/CBC-20/0.33-FARAD-5.5-VOLT-CAPACITOR/1.html

Back in tech school days we were told a one farad capacitor would be the size of a house...'course they were still teaching cathod, grid, plate, back then also.  :D

Wow! 1 whole farad!

Thanks I'll try that. I have an ms12a that is at a7 and needs to stay on for 4 minutes. But it is set at 1 min since I changed it's battery cause I'm too lazy to go to the net relearn how to do it and go fix it. It lights my mudroom that is dark so I have to tie my shoes with focus and stop taunting the dog about going wherever were off to who has her nose to the door.




Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: Brandt on February 02, 2010, 11:30:00 PM
Alright wires would look bad. I know there are battery checking scripts, and the cap idea sounds good.
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: Brandt on February 02, 2010, 11:32:38 PM
what do security systems use for contact closures? I always see two little white contacts with a white cable running down the side of the window or door.
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: Mel99 on February 03, 2010, 09:05:34 AM
what do security systems use for contact closures? I always see two little white contacts with a white cable running down the side of the window or door.

The security system in my previous house used magnetic contacts that were open when the door/window was open.  The door/window had a little metal strip that would close the magnetic contacts when we closed the door or window.  From time to time one of the pairs of cable would malfunction and I would have to go into the crawl space and troubleshoot.

My MS14's have instructions for setting the codes inside the battery door, making the re-learning process quick.  I attached flush-mount hanging devices to the back of the 14's so I can easily take them down and set/reset the codes inside and not on a ladder out in the cold (northern Illinois).  I read in these forums that someone uses velcro to do this, but I don't trust velcro in the extreme cold.

I plan to initiate a yearly battery replacement program.  In September, I take a day and replace all of the batteries, reset the codes and test.  That way, I'll be set for the winter.

Mel
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: dave w on February 03, 2010, 11:54:40 AM

I plan to initiate a yearly battery replacement program.  In September, I take a day and replace all of the batteries, reset the codes and test.  That way, I'll be set for the winter.

Mel
Yup, best way to do it. Once a year I spend a small fortune at the battery store (aka Walmart battery display)and replace everything...clocks, smoke alarms, TV remotes, garage remotes, Motion sensors, Palm Pads, Slim Line Switches, etc. Big PIB but everything is good for another year. Very surprising how many batteries a typical household uses. 
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: Charles Sullivan on February 03, 2010, 01:35:05 PM

The DS10A has a low battery indicator which is detected by suitable software.   It'll probably run for a couple of weeks at least in the low battery state.  When changing batteries, you have a minute or two to get the old batteries out and the new ones in before it loses its ID code.

he MS1xA by contrast has no low battery indicator, and once you pull out a battery the address has to be reset.
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: panamon on July 03, 2010, 04:40:23 AM
Is adding a capacitor actually an option?

Can someone please verify the capacitors in the thread are the ones that are needed and describe where and how to install them in the MS16A's circuitry? Would you simply solder it to the positive negative sides of the battery pack?

I can change batteries in 10 secs easy so I hope this is doable. With all the sensores I have deployed, changing the batteries is an expensive nuisance enough without having to have to reprogram not only the house and unit codes but the Dusk\Dawn and OFF settings as well.

Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: Brian H on July 03, 2010, 06:55:52 AM
One problem with the large capacity; Super Capacitors. Is their size.
The 1F listed above is .78" Diameter and .3" thick
The .33F is smaller.
Spec sheet: http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/ABC0000CE1.pdf

I believe the large capacity capacitors also have a fairly large leakage current until forming well.

The MS16A has a 10uf cap C11 across the battery from the factory.

I don't know if anyone has tried a super cap in a motion sensor {if it could be fitted into one} to keep the settings long enough to change the batteries. Hold time maybe dependent on if you triggered it during battery removal and the transmitter sent a On signal.  :'

dave w; Nothing like a final output tube. Plates glowing cherry red and the envelope so hot the glass is sucking in from the vacuum inside it.  rofl
Title: Re: Changing batterires = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: neo11 on July 03, 2010, 12:37:32 PM
= Low Alpha Male approval too.

Why does my $6.96 multi remote from walmart hold the codes while I change the batteries but a ms1x can't.

Can I add a cap to these to give me a little time?
Bits you are a genius

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/CBC-17/1-FARAD-5.5-VOLT-SUPER-CAP-/-/1.html

A one farad cap would run a MS14 about a day!  rofl

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/CBC-20/0.33-FARAD-5.5-VOLT-CAPACITOR/1.html

Back in tech school days we were told a one farad capacitor would be the size of a house...'course they were still teaching cathod, grid, plate, back then also.  :D

I figure 1 50 uf electrolitic should hold it  for about a minute no ?  ;) 1 farad caps are hard to
find I think.
Title: Re: Changing batterires = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: neo11 on July 03, 2010, 02:57:34 PM
= Low Alpha Male approval too.

Why does my $6.96 multi remote from walmart hold the codes while I change the batteries but a ms1x can't.

Can I add a cap to these to give me a little time?
Bits you are a genius

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/CBC-17/1-FARAD-5.5-VOLT-SUPER-CAP-/-/1.html

A one farad cap would run a MS14 about a day!  rofl

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/CBC-20/0.33-FARAD-5.5-VOLT-CAPACITOR/1.html

Back in tech school days we were told a one farad capacitor would be the size of a house...'course they were still teaching cathod, grid, plate, back then also.  :D

I figure 1 50 uf electrolitic should hold it  for about a minute no ?  ;) 1 farad caps are hard to
find I think.

Oh thought I would add that a tantalum cap would be nice. They are very tiny. However,
watch the polarity, hooking them up backwards lets the smoke out and they pop  ;D
Title: Re: Changing batterires = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: dave w on July 05, 2010, 09:17:24 PM

1 farad caps are hard to find I think.

Nay-nay, I say.
http://www.allelectronics.com/index.php?page=search&search_query=1+farad&x=28&y=12
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: Brian H on July 06, 2010, 06:28:37 AM
All you have to do is try and find a place for a .76" Diameter X.3" thick device.
I doubt even a 1F will keep the voltage up if you trigger the motion sensor during battery changes.
Of course if some one wants to buy one and test it for us. That would be great.
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: dave w on July 06, 2010, 11:06:11 AM
I doubt even a 1F will keep the voltage up if you trigger the motion sensor during battery changes.
Of course if some one wants to buy one and test it for us. That would be great.
Sounds like a challenge...I'm on it.   -:)
I'm just not sure if I have any more 1 farads in the junk box. May have to wait until my next order to "All Electronics".
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: Charles Sullivan on July 06, 2010, 06:48:57 PM

Just a few back of the envelope calculations here:

The rate of change of voltage across a capacitor is equal to the current divided by the capacitance.  So for example if the motion sensor should be triggered while changing the battery and draws, say, 10 milliamps (just a wild guess), the voltage across a 1 Farad capacitor would drop at 10 millivolts/second while the sensor is transmitting - about 0.6 seconds every 10 seconds or so.  (As I recall there's a refractory period of about 10 seconds after a transmission during which the sensor won't report further motion.)  If it takes 30 seconds to change the batteries and there are 3 transmissions during that period, one might expect the voltage to drop about 18 millivolts (0.018 V).

However since there is no low-battery signal from a standard X10 sensor; you know for sure you need a new battery when the sensor no longer responds to motion (or to dawn/dusk).  It will have to be determined whether the sensor address programming is maintained at that voltage.

With a capacitor that size, I'd probably be more concerned that the life of a battery would be greatly shortened just by charging up the capacitor in the first place.
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: dave w on July 06, 2010, 08:42:45 PM

The rate of change of voltage across a capacitor is equal to the current divided by the capacitance.  So for example if the motion sensor should be triggered while changing the battery and draws, say, 10 milliamps (just a wild guess), the voltage across a 1 Farad capacitor would drop at 10 millivolts/second while the sensor is transmitting - about 0.6 seconds every 10 seconds or so.  (As I recall there's a refractory period of about 10 seconds after a transmission during which the sensor won't report further motion.)  If it takes 30 seconds to change the batteries and there are 3 transmissions during that period, one might expect the voltage to drop about 18 millivolts (0.018 V).

With a capacitor that size, I'd probably be more concerned that the life of a battery would be greatly shortened just by charging up the capacitor in the first place.

A-a-a-a-w-w-w Chuck, now ya went an took all the fun out. 

I'm still gonna stick a farad in an "eye", if I can find a place to mount it. Maybe I can put it right behind that little window.  -:)
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: Charles Sullivan on July 06, 2010, 10:37:52 PM
I'm still gonna stick a farad in an "eye", if I can find a place to mount it. Maybe I can put it right behind that little window.  -:)

For an experiment, you could just duct-tape it to the outside and leave the battery compartment open for the connection across the battery terminals.  :D
 
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: HA Dave on July 07, 2010, 12:14:35 AM
You could just solarize your motion sensors: http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=20237.msg114109#msg114109


(http://forums.x10.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20237.0;attach=1253)
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: JeffVolp on July 07, 2010, 12:19:57 AM
Most of those double-layer supercapacitors have high series resistance, so the back of the envelope calculations don't work very well.  I tried to use them for an intermittent low-power transmitter application myself.  Unfortunately, the series resistance caused the voltage to drop too low to be useful when transmitting.  Most of them are really meant for low current memory backup applications.  I did use some TDK 1 farad units with low source resistance, but they were almost as large as a hockey puck.

Jeff
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: dave w on July 07, 2010, 09:11:24 AM
For an experiment, you could just duct-tape it to the outside and leave the battery compartment open for the connection across the battery terminals.  :D
 
Now being serious (which does not happen often). I have an Active Eye in the bedroom running off a 3V DC wall wart. Everytime the power flickers I have to reprogram the Active Eye so I have been meaning to try a 1 farad in the empty battery compartment just to see if it would avert some of these re programmings. I guess the test will be a success if I have to reset microwave clock but not the Active Eye.  :)%

Will post the results in the event others are running "XXXXEYES" off wall warts.
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: panamon on July 09, 2010, 05:42:08 AM

...
However since there is no low-battery signal from a standard X10 sensor; you know for sure you need a new battery when the sensor no longer responds to motion (or to dawn/dusk).  It will have to be determined whether the sensor address programming is maintained at that voltage.

With a capacitor that size, I'd probably be more concerned that the life of a battery would be greatly shortened just by charging up the capacitor in the first place.


Your point is well taken. It also makes sense that perhaps by the time you notice the detector's batteries are low, the cap may only serve to speed up the final drain, killing settings that may otherwise have survived had the cap not been added to the circuit.

 -:)

I think what I'll do instead is rig up simple box with 2 batteries and some thin blades (or alligator clips), that will provide good contact with the terminals of the detector thus allowing the removal of the depleted batteries and the installation of fresh ones while the detector is well energized.

I get the feeling that keeping it juiced may provide the best hope for preserving settings.


                             - \_________
                                                |
                                                |
                                                |
                                                |
                                                |
                             + \_____       |
                                          |     |
                                          |     |
                                          |     |
                                          |     |
                                          |     |
                                          |     |
                                          |     |
           ________________      |     |
           |                        |     |     |
    |--- | -                    +  |--|     |
    |     |_______________ |           |
    |                                            | 
    |       ________________           |
    |      |                         |          |
    |---| +                      - |-------|
            |_______________ |
(Be sure to apply the blades to the right side of the sensor facing you.)
       
I use DooMotion and there is a feature that flags a sensor as suspect if no motion is detected after a customizable number of hours.

If this approach works, it would be easier and cheaper than adding caps to all my sensors and would not reduce battery life. This could also work with the many MS10A's I have deployed.

(All my batteries are fairly fresh, so if someone tries this before me, please post back and let us know if this works.)
Title: Re: Changing batteries = Low Family Approval Factor
Post by: BoyntonStu on August 06, 2010, 05:22:08 PM
A few short wires soldered to + and -  and 2 alligator clips on the wires from your 3 Volt source and you are done!

You can also use the leads to measure the voltage to determine if the batteries need replacing.