X10 Community Forum

💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: rmakhoebe on March 02, 2010, 12:23:39 PM

Title: X-10 wide usage
Post by: rmakhoebe on March 02, 2010, 12:23:39 PM
Good evening everyone!!
The main reason for my question last time was because I was given an industrial project topic to design a LOW COST WIRELESS X-10. This has to be a B-tech level exercise that has to be built and run when doing a presantation. I am therefore trying to design something that is complicated enough yet not sophisticated technologically for a B-tech student exercise in our country (South Africa). Up till now i am still confused on what to design so i am seeking any ideas that might help me achieve my goal,please bring forward your ideas as soon as possible... thanx again!   
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: Brandt on March 02, 2010, 04:41:47 PM
It would probably be a hack on something like a kill-a-watt and an x10 thermostat which uses a whole house code to send the number as degrees. Also, check out the tweet-a-watt (http://www.ladyada.net/make/tweetawatt/) which you may be able to change to accommodate your needs and would not even require x-10


http://twitter.com/Tweetawatt
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on March 02, 2010, 08:33:23 PM
Good evening everyone!!
I want to measure the power consumption of the house appliance (fridge,stove) using an x-10 module and obviously doing  a bit of programming in order to recall the consumption in the previous days.
X10 modules are control points, not monitoring points. They can only apply or disconnect power to the appliances plugged into them. They can not monitor if the appliance is actually being used (drawing current).

Pomprockers suggestion of a Kill-A-Watt will work for most 120V appliances but would be very difficult to adapt to high current 220V appliances like HVAC, waterheater,  or stove. This isn't a renter/landlord/utilities thing is it?

I just looked at Pomprockers  "tweet-A-watt " suggestion, and recant everything I said above ;D
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: Brian H on March 03, 2010, 06:05:04 AM
As other have said there is no X10 solution to this problem.

There is a monitor for a single appliance at a time. "Watts Up? Pro". It stores the information that can later be downloaded to a PC.

I believe there are devices that can be mounted over your electric meter to read the watthours it is recording and it send the data to a monitoring PC.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: rmakhoebe on March 10, 2010, 10:59:11 AM
Thanx a million for all the responses i got,but what i am trying to do is this:recall the power consumption of a certain device (fridge/stove) on a given day. This, i believe,i can achieve by connecting a watthour meter to the appliance in question, and to the x-10 module. From the module to the controller, then from the outputs of the controller i want it to be displayed on the LCD module. So what i really want to understand is whether it is possible and if x-10 is really needed in this application,or whether this can be considered as an X-10 application...
rmakhoebe
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on March 10, 2010, 12:30:22 PM
This, i believe,i can achieve by connecting a watthour meter to the appliance in question, and to the x-10 module. From the module to the controller, then from the outputs of the controller i want it to be displayed on the LCD module. So what i really want to understand is whether it is possible and if x-10 is really needed in this application,or whether this can be considered as an X-10 application...
rmakhoebe
Your description is a little confusing. What are you calling a "controller" and where does this "LCD module" come from? Is that the "Kill-A-Watt"?

Don't know if this helps or not.


To measurue appliance current, the appliance in some way must get operating power through the wattmeter or wattmeter monitoring device.

"TED" might be able to do it, but I don't know if TED is adaptable to the individual appliance level. I think it is "whole house" only.
http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html

Also Pomprocker's "Tweet-A-Watt" might be able to do this but I suspect either Tweet or TED will take a lot of engineering on your part, especially since you want to monitor stove level 220V Amps.

X10 can only turn stuff off and on (and that does not include a 50 amp stove). 

MY $0.02 is X10 would be a very small piece of the pie, if usuable at all.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: Brian H on March 10, 2010, 12:34:42 PM
There is no X10 module capable of sending wattmeter date to anything.
X10 will not help in your needs.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: HA Dave on March 10, 2010, 03:08:55 PM
Was just wondering if anyone would be able to help me with my concern. I want to measure the power consumption of the house appliance (fridge,stove) using an x-10 module

....what i am trying to do is this:recall the power consumption of a certain device (fridge/stove) on a given day.

This isn't a complaint! Personally I really don't care. I just wish posters would realize the more secretive and encrypted the posts... the more difficult it is to be of any help to them. I am temped to just ask... why on earth would anyone bother to measure something they could so easily calculate. This is simple basic math that... if you can't do it in you head... can easily be done with pencil and scrap paper.

Is this a classroom exercise?
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on March 10, 2010, 07:07:06 PM
Was just wondering if anyone would be able to help me with my concern. I want to measure the power consumption of the house appliance (fridge,stove) using an x-10 module

....what i am trying to do is this:recall the power consumption of a certain device (fridge/stove) on a given day.

This isn't a complaint! Personally I really don't care. I just wish posters would realize the more secretive and encrypted the posts... the more difficult it is to be of any help to them. I am temped to just ask... why on earth would anyone bother to measure something they could so easily calculate. This is simple basic math that... if you can't do it in you head... can easily be done with pencil and scrap paper.

Is this a classroom exercise?
I am guessing  rmakhoebe is not around to know how much the stove was used on a given day, or how long the refrigerator ran in a 24 hour period. What  rmakhoebe  wants to do is possible, but not "off-the-shelf" or particularly cheap.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: nybuck on March 10, 2010, 08:01:37 PM
Quote
why on earth would anyone bother to measure something they could so easily calculate. This is simple basic math that... if you can't do it in you head... can easily be done with pencil and scrap paper.

OK, I am starting to see the logic of his question.  While I agree that a refridgerator's power consumption can be calculated, because it is on constantly, I see the issue.  If an X10 module can tell you how long an appliance is powered on, that can tell you its power consumption.

That being said, it would be easier to use a few 'Kill-A-Watt's.   >*<
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on March 11, 2010, 01:26:29 PM
If an X10 module can tell you how long an appliance is powered on, that can tell you its power consumption.

That being said, it would be easier to use a few 'Kill-A-Watt's.   >*<

Yup!  That's the reason X10 really can not help in  rmakhoebe's scenario.

X10 with AHP could tell you how long it supplied power to the refrigerator, but not whether the refrigerator was "running" which is what the "wattage" on the nomenclature plate indicates. My refrigerator does not "run" 24/7.  (i.e. compressor/fan in operation to cool the box) so it really isn't easily calculatable.

Besides it would be a serious error to plug a refrigerator into a X10 module. I know my Breyer's Coffee ice cream would be melted by Wednesday.  rofl
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: nybuck on March 11, 2010, 07:54:02 PM
Quote
Besides it would be a serious error to plug a refrigerator into a X10 module. I know my Breyer's Coffee ice cream would be melted by Wednesday

Why worry - Most people like warm coffee  ;D

This reminds me of other message boards I belong to.  There are some REAL DIE-HARD X-10 FANS on here.  [insert relevant smilie here]  If you want to know how to make night vision goggles, remote dead-bolt locks, and automatically start your car when you get out of the shower, all with X10 Modules, then you get it here. 

I'm sure if you wanted to remotely mix cement and pour a sidewalk, someone would come up with a way to use X10 modules to get to that end, although it wouldn't be the most direct way.....   :)

 >!
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: HA Dave on March 11, 2010, 08:39:04 PM
I'm sure if you wanted to remotely mix cement and pour a sidewalk, someone would come up with a way to use X10 modules to get to that end

Remotely mix cement...... hummmm.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: nybuck on March 11, 2010, 08:44:56 PM
Remotely mix cement...... hummmm.

Well, Dave...

You know what they say.... 

"The use of Home Automation is limited... only by our imaginations"    :P   ;D

 >!
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on March 12, 2010, 12:06:19 PM
This reminds me of other message boards I belong to.  There are some REAL DIE-HARD X-10 FANS on here.  [insert relevant smilie here]  If you want to know how to make night vision goggles, remote dead-bolt locks, and automatically start your car when you get out of the shower, all with X10 Modules, then you get it here. 

 >!
I want to be able to stand up, pull up my pants and say "FLUSH".  :'

All I need yet is a solenoid with a 3" throw for the tank handle. Being an understudy of the "Red Green Show" I'm using X10,duct tape, and maybe a little super glue.   rofl
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: HA Dave on March 12, 2010, 02:25:37 PM
I want to be able to stand up, pull up my pants and say "FLUSH". 
All I need yet is a solenoid with a 3" throw for the tank handle. Being an understudy of the "Red Green Show" I'm using X10,duct tape, and maybe a little super glue.   

I am also a big fan of Red Green. I am thinking maybe... digging around in back yard... You might be able to find an old windshield wiper motor to throw the flush handle, powered (or course) by a car battery. Or maybe... just build the Red Green robot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-FusHo_Vw8)

If the women don't find you hansom.... they should at least find you handy.

We're all in this together
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: nybuck on March 12, 2010, 03:21:42 PM
OK, now I've seen it all!!! 

An X10 Controlled Hammer!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMq_3QJ_C34 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMq_3QJ_C34)   -:)

I guess I wasn't that far off after all!!   B:(
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: Boiler on March 12, 2010, 03:25:39 PM
I want to be able to stand up, pull up my pants and say "FLUSH". 
All I need yet is a solenoid with a 3" throw for the tank handle. Being an understudy of the "Red Green Show" I'm using X10,duct tape, and maybe a little super glue.   

I am also a big fan of Red Green. I am thinking maybe... digging around in back yard... You might be able to find an old windshield wiper motor to throw the flush handle, powered (or course) by a car battery. Or maybe... just build the Red Green robot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-FusHo_Vw8)

If the women don't find you hansom.... they should at least find you handy.

We're all in this together


Pneumatically controlled linear actuator (nitrogen of course).  We used them throughout the 70's in Jet fuel cells to activate everything from switches to door latches.   We claimed they were used because of the explosive atmosphere - I'd attribute them to the Rube Goldberg part of us that was struggling for release.

I'm personally of the opinion that Red "borrowed" a lot of his ideas from our test cells.  No offense Red - I loved the show.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on March 12, 2010, 03:53:21 PM
I want to be able to stand up, pull up my pants and say "FLUSH". 
All I need yet is a solenoid with a 3" throw for the tank handle. Being an understudy of the "Red Green Show" I'm using X10,duct tape, and maybe a little super glue.   

I am thinking maybe... digging around in back yard... You might be able to find an old windshield wiper motor to throw the flush handle,

Excellent idea!! But I keep all my "small" stuff in the front yard between the couch and the Ford Fairmont. 

Actually Boiler gave me a great idea. Two X10 controlled aquarium air pumps on a dual port "Bimba" air cynlinder might do it. Since Bimba's are a bit sensitive to moisture I keep them in the Maytag in the side yard.   ;)
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: Boiler on March 12, 2010, 04:20:53 PM
Excellent idea!! But I keep all my "small" stuff in the front yard between the couch and the Ford Fairmont. 

Actually Boiler gave me a great idea. Two X10 controlled aquarium air pumps on a dual port "Bimba" air cynlinder might do it. Since Bimba's are a bit sensitive to moisture I keep them in the Maytag in the side yard.   ;)

A Fairmont, Maytag, and a Bimba actuator???

Dave you've changed - gotten all uppity and such.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: Knightrider on March 12, 2010, 08:28:26 PM
3" throw isn't necessary, as you can tap the lever inside the tank to adjust the throw distance.

I actually kinda mocked this up some time ago, and was shot down by the wife.

Check your local FreeCycle and grab up an old dishwasher (mine was hotpoint) from the early 80's.  The drain solenoid has plenty of power to trip the arm when connected to some picture wire and a spring.

As, I'm to lazy to want to say the word "flush" maybe a pressure switch can be incorporated into the seat.

Remember, "If the ladies don't find you handsome, at least they can find you handy."

-Keep your stick on the ice.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: nybuck on March 12, 2010, 09:19:41 PM
Wait........

You guys are serious about the self-flushing toilet? ???

When I was in high school, they had such a beast.  It wasn't X10 by any means, but a mechanical pressure sensor from the seat to the water pipe...  And come to think of it, every bar and airport I've been in for the past 5 years has had a battery-powered automatic sensor to flush it as well...  Why X10 or voice command??

I think you are all proving my original point!!
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: Knightrider on March 12, 2010, 09:31:53 PM
Wait........

...  Why X10 or voice command??




We love the challenge of outdoing each other's x10 projects.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: HA Dave on March 12, 2010, 10:24:09 PM
We love the challenge of outdoing each other's x10 projects.

I enjoy the challenge of the puzzle. Figuring it all out. Getting in touch with my inner MacGuyver. And then enjoying the automation afterwards.

It was a conversation like this (only in a chatroom) that lead me to create the [worlds first] automated chair (http://www.thisautomatedhouse.com/AutomatedChair.html). Which has lead me to pursue Occupancy Sensing (http://davesdomainonline.com/os/sensing.htm)... and most recently S.A.R.A. (http://davesdomainonline.com/sara/sara.htm). I am not sure I am interested in automating my toilet... at this time.. but I am hooked on automation.

The X10 hammer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMq_3QJ_C34)... that was just humor.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: nybuck on March 12, 2010, 10:35:40 PM
OK, Dave...   -:)

I looked at your video links, and read a little...  (At first, I didn't realize the hammer was yours...)

Conclusion:  You are obsessed with X10 and Home Automation.  ;D

You also have learned WAY MORE about HA than most could do in a lifetime.  My hat's off to your accomplishments.

 #:)
 
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: HA Dave on March 12, 2010, 10:46:52 PM
Conclusion:  You are obsessed with X10 and Home Automation. 
Yes. Yes I am.
You also have learned WAY MORE about HA than most could do in a lifetime.  My hat's off to your accomplishments.
Actually most of the regulars here at the forum know much more than myself about X10, electronics, programming... everything. I am an example of what the guy-off-the-street can do... if he only wants to.

When YouTube became popular.. X10 had a YouTube X10 Video contest. I made my first video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MANlRiyh8Eo) and won a bunch of free X10 stuff. When I discovered BVC (http://www.wgjohns.com/bvc.htm) I put up a Fan Site Web Page (http://www.davesdomainonline.com/bvc/bvc.htm).... and started spreading the word. More Videos followed (http://www.youtube.com/suitmanIM).
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on March 13, 2010, 10:24:53 AM
Excellent idea!! But I keep all my "small" stuff in the front yard between the couch and the Ford Fairmont. 

Actually Boiler gave me a great idea. Two X10 controlled aquarium air pumps on a dual port "Bimba" air cynlinder might do it. Since Bimba's are a bit sensitive to moisture I keep them in the Maytag in the side yard.   ;)

A Fairmont, Maytag, and a Bimba actuator???

Dave you've changed - gotten all uppity and such.

Yup I'm "movin on up to the good times".

I'm just taking Dr Cheung's heated toilet seat to the next logical level....... rofl

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/hotseat.htm
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: nybuck on March 13, 2010, 10:42:34 AM
Yup I'm "movin on up to the good times".

I'm just taking Dr Cheung's heated toilet seat to the next logical level....... rofl

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/hotseat.htm

I don't know how the human race has survived this long without this.....   rofl
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on March 13, 2010, 12:11:13 PM
3" throw isn't necessary, as you can tap the lever inside the tank to adjust the throw distance.

Knight, it's one of those "pressurized flush" johnnys. I call it my "Airport Toilet" because you push the level, and with a loud "ka-douche!!" everything is gone in 287 milliseconds. Wife won't let me X10 it because she is afraid of me getting fried on the toilet. Very hard to explain to the EMS guys without them laughing and blowing the ashes all over the bathroom. rofl
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: HA Dave on March 13, 2010, 01:21:54 PM
......... Wife won't let me X10 it because she is afraid of me getting fried on the toilet. Very hard to explain to the EMS guys without them laughing and blowing the ashes all over the bathroom. rofl

I think automated toilets should operate on 220-240... just to be sure to avoid any embarrassment with the EMS guys. (Or maybe the windshield wiper motor and car battery doesn't sound so bad.) Maybe the automotive electric door lock solenoid and a hot wired emergency light (http://www.lightworld.com/viewdetails.asp?id=99907629&sub=1325).
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: HA Dave on March 14, 2010, 12:14:34 PM
Or maybe... toilet flushing is what a pet is for (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49jKeGyUCJE).
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: Boiler on March 14, 2010, 01:34:31 PM
3" throw isn't necessary, as you can tap the lever inside the tank to adjust the throw distance.

Knight, it's one of those "pressurized flush" johnnys. I call it my "Airport Toilet" because you push the level, and with a loud "ka-douche!!" everything is gone in 287 milliseconds. Wife won't let me X10 it because she is afraid of me getting fried on the toilet. Very hard to explain to the EMS guys without them laughing and blowing the ashes all over the bathroom. rofl

OK, borrowing shamelessly from a number of posts -

1) Vacuum wiper motor from a 60 - 70's vintage Ford Bronco or  IH Scout.
2) Vacuum generated by the Fairmont in the side yard.
3) X10 to trip the starter solenoid on the sidewall (low voltage).

I think that gains you the electrical isolation you need (Wife's concerns) and gives you a power source in the event of outages (and uses X10 of course).

Crap - just remembered the Fairmonts were carburated.  We'll need to work on a fuel injection retrofit (details, details).
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on March 14, 2010, 05:43:16 PM
Knight, it's one of those "pressurized flush" johnnys. I call it my "Airport Toilet" because you push the level, and with a loud "ka-douche!!" everything is gone in 287 milliseconds. Wife won't let me X10 it because she is afraid of me getting fried on the toilet. Very hard to explain to the EMS guys without them laughing and blowing the ashes all over the bathroom. rofl

OK, borrowing shamelessly from a number of posts -

1) Vacuum wiper motor from a 60 - 70's vintage Ford Bronco or  IH Scout.
2) Vacuum generated by the Fairmont in the side yard.
3) X10 to trip the starter solenoid on the sidewall (low voltage).

I think that gains you the electrical isolation you need (Wife's concerns) and gives you a power source in the event of outages (and uses X10 of course).

Crap - just remembered the Fairmonts were carburated.  We'll need to work on a fuel injection retrofit (details, details).
MY NEIGHBOR HAS A '68 SCOUT!!! It's propping up the roof of his front porch, but I can get the wiper motor. I'm on this!


Edit by -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) - Fixed quote.
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: rmakhoebe on April 07, 2010, 01:26:08 PM
Good evening everyone!!
The main reason for my question last time was because I was given an industrial project topic to design a LOW COST WIRELESS X-10. This has to be a B-tech level exercise that has to be built and run when doing a presantation. I am therefore trying to design something that is complicated enough yet not sophisticated technologically for a B-tech student exercise in our country (South Africa) where we use 220/240VAC. Up till now i am still confused on what to design so i am seeking any ideas that might help me achieve my goal,please bring forward your ideas as soon as possible... thanx again!   
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on April 07, 2010, 01:34:12 PM
Is there an echo in here?
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: Puck on April 07, 2010, 01:44:09 PM
Is there an echo in here?

You know what Einstein said about doing the same thing twice and expecting different results....
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on April 07, 2010, 01:59:46 PM
Is there an echo in here?

You know what Einstein said about doing the same thing twice and expecting different results....

Yes Puck I do.

However " rmakhoebe" might be asking the same question multiple times because we ARE talking X10, which usually does provide different results when we do the same thing twice.  rofl
Title: Re: X-10 wide usage
Post by: dave w on April 07, 2010, 02:38:01 PM
rmakhoebe

Based on your March 10 2010 post, you may not have a clear understanding of what the Control/Automation capabilities of X10 is.

In essence X10 can only turn things ON and OFF. You can use the X10 home automation software to turn things ON and OFF by time or by conditional logic via macros you construct. The macros can be triggered by time, by external events, by date, etc.

The X10 web site (http://www.x10.com) has a lot of examples of X10 control of lighting and appliances (for North America use) especially under the "ActiveHome Pro" and "Automation" tabs. The X10 equipment sold in North America is primarily for 120V 60Hz, so you may want to visit http://www.x10europe.com/ which sells 230 V 50Hz X10 product.

Use X10 to turn ON and OFF a few lightbulbs and a fan with the X10 home automation controller / software and be sure to call your project "Green".  I'm sure you get a high grade.