X10 Community Forum
🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: gdmaclew on July 31, 2010, 10:55:42 AM
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I am new to this forum and to AHP.
I have been using X10 products for 20 years.
I used to use the old software with Firecracker but I switched to AHP last week because sometimes the old software would crash.
I use X10 basically for 2 things...to control my livingroom lights and to control 8 outdoor spotlights.
The livingroom lights are on one wall switch set to E2.
The spotlights are controlled by 2 wall switches (4 spotlights each) set to E1.
I have a TM751 transceiver controlled by a PalmPad HR12A.
I replaced the CM17A serial interface module with the CM15A USB module.
I have 2 basic problems with AHP.
1. Sometimes I can turn on the livingroom lights with AHP and sometimes I can't.
2. I have also set up two test timers for each of the two items listed above and neither of them work at all.
I had to set up the spotlights as an Appliance Module to get them to work. I have the livingroom lights set up as a Wallswitch Module.
AHP is seeing the commands I enter into the PalmPad.
So, right now I am not impressed with AHP.
Any idea what is going on here?
Much appreciated.
Doug
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Since this is an older installation.
Are the wall switches old enough to be before Soft Start?
Where they ramp on and off. Also have a preset dim.
Reason I asked is the soft start have to be handled differently in AHP then the older type.
It is possible you have a power line signal problem. The CM17A sent an RF command to the TM751 and it passed the signal on to the E2 switches. Now the CM15As position in the system maybe on a different branch circuit or the other phase of the homes wiring.
Here is a good set of troubleshooting tutorials.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-solutions.com/PCC/uncle.htm
For #2 We have seen reports of timer problems with 3.271 and 3.236. Many have back tracked to 3.228 and had better results.
There are threads here on how to do it.
Basically from here:
ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/applications/activehome/
Download ahp_updt_204.exe and run it.
Then run the check updates from the AHP that was installed and it will find 3.228.
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After reading some of the posts here, I discovered that the "ON" command doesn't activate on timers at the exact "minute" requested. I waited and the timer activated at 30-45 seconds after the minute...so the timer does work.
Still have the problem indicated under number 1.
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Since this is an older installation.
Are the wall switches old enough to be before Soft Start?
Where they ramp on and off. Also have a preset dim.
Reason I asked is the soft start have to be handled differently in AHP then the older type.
It is possible you have a power line signal problem. The CM17A sent an RF command to the TM751 and it passed the signal on to the E2 switches. Now the CM15As position in the system maybe on a different branch circuit or the other phase of the homes wiring.
Here is a good set of troubleshooting tutorials.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-solutions.com/PCC/uncle.htm
For #2 We have seen reports of timer problems with 3.271 and 3.236. Many have back tracked to 3.228 and had better results.
There are threads here on how to do it.
Basically from here:
ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/applications/activehome/
Download ahp_updt_204.exe and run it.
Then run the check updates from the AHP that was installed and it will find 3.228.
Thanks Brian.
First see my reply to my post which I posted before you posted. LOL.
Second, yes, the wall switch is pre 2007.
I'll check the branch that the CM15A and wall switch are on and post an update.
Thanks.
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Yes I have seen posts go that way.
Sometimes you get a red warning that another post was processed while you where inputting yours sometimes there is no red warning. ;D
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Yes I have seen posts go that way.
Sometimes you get a red warning that another post was processed while you where inputting yours sometimes there is no red warning. ;D
I got the "red warning" but posted anyway.
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I did some investigation and the CM15A is indeed on a different phase from the wall switch I am trying to control (opposite sides of the panel).
I guess I'll have to modify the panel.
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I did some investigation and the CM15A is indeed on a different phase from the wall switch I am trying to control (opposite sides of the panel).
I guess I'll have to modify the panel.
FWIW
Depending upon panel design "opposite side of panel" may not be the opposite phase. I have both phases on both sides of my panel (Square D). Each row of breakers is different phase.
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I did some investigation and the CM15A is indeed on a different phase from the wall switch I am trying to control (opposite sides of the panel).
I guess I'll have to modify the panel.
No, you need some form of a phase coupler.
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I did some investigation and the CM15A is indeed on a different phase from the wall switch I am trying to control (opposite sides of the panel).
I guess I'll have to modify the panel.
No, you need some form of a phase coupler.
Sorry, that's what I meant. Since I installed my own panel 25 years ago, maybe I could install a phase coupler myself. How difficult would it be?
I'll check the forum for posts related to this topic and maybe I'll find the answer.
I wish I could just plug the CM15A into a different outlet but the only one close enough to the PC is the branch on which the wall switch is and that controls two outlets for my livingroom lights. So the problem is that the outlet is either switched off, is dimmed or is fully on. I don't think the CM15A will work if the outlet is either off or dimmed...correct me if I'm wrong.
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You have a dimmer controlling an outlet?
If you do it is a safety hazard and probably against the electrical code.
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You have a dimmer controlling an outlet?
If you do it is a safety hazard and probably against the electrical code.
Yes the wall switch detailed previously is controlling two livingroom outlets for the two lights there.
It is not against the Ontario Electrical Code.
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OK.
You are correct on the CM15A. Using that circuit. The CM15A would not work correctly.
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Sorry, that's what I meant. Since I installed my own panel 25 years ago, maybe I could install a phase coupler myself. How difficult would it be?
It's not difficult. If you installed your own panel, you can install a "repeater" (I would not mess with a passive phase coupler, a good repeater, amplifying the X10 signal on both phases solves most noise, coupling, and signal sucking, problems. Well worth the cost). All you need is an unused breaker on each phase. The repeater connects to each phase and neutral.
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Sorry, that's what I meant. Since I installed my own panel 25 years ago, maybe I could install a phase coupler myself. How difficult would it be?
It's not difficult. If you installed your own panel, you can install a "repeater" (I would not mess with a passive phase coupler, a good repeater, amplifying the X10 signal on both phases solves most noise, coupling, and signal sucking, problems. Well worth the cost). All you need is an unused breaker on each phase. The repeater connects to each phase and neutral.
Thanks. Where do I get them?
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gdmaclew said: "Thanks. Where do I get them?"
These IMHO are the best but also the most pricey.
JV Engineering, XTBIIR
http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm
or
ACT CR 234 or CR230
http://www.smarthome.com/4821AC/HomePro-Amplified-Coupler-Repeater-with-Repeated-Signal-Detection/p.aspx
http://www.smarthome.com/4820AC/HomePro-Amplified-Coupler-Repeater/p.aspx
These below are less expensive, but not as good (IMHO) nor as high an output as the above.
XPCR
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/catalog/platform.html#couplers (try Ebay, these are pretty cheap)
SignalLinc
http://www.smarthome.com/4826B/SignaLinc-3-Pin-Plug-in-Coupler-Repeater/p.aspx (plugs into 220V dryer outlet, no installation)
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The SignalLinc Repeater has been reported to cause X10 power line fire storms with the CM15A in some installations.
I had one and in my case it was OK. Until I got a CR134 {same as CR234 with optional three phase support} that was now replaced by the XTB-IIR.
Same for the Leviton HCA02 and firestorms.
I also would say a XTB-IIR if possible. It blasts such a strong signal on the power line.
The CR234 would also work.
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I appreciate all your help on this but here's where I stand.
First of all, the reason I went with a CM15A was that the software I was using with the CM17A serial module would hang or crash occasionally which basically made it useless when I was on vacation.
Otherwise I had zero issues with my small setup.
I was not looking to spend oodles of money.
I have done extensive testing on my setup and power system and I don't understand the problem with that one wall switch (non soft-start).
I read what everyone said about phase but here's my problem.
I have a spare AH486 that I have been using for testing.
Nomatter where in the house I plug that module in, the AHP can turn it on and off 100% of the time.
Same thing for the spotlights, which are using the new soft-start wall switches.
The only problem I am having is with the older wall switch in my livingroom.
Rather than investing more money buying boosters and couplers, maybe I should just buy an updated wall switch and try that.
Are there any known issues with the old style wall switches?
Having been a network administrator for 20 years, the rule I always went with was "try the simple stuff first".
Again, thank you for all your help and I will update you when I get the new switch.
Cheers.
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New version of the wall switches and lamp modules have soft start.
Wall switches also have preset dim.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Newer_Wall_Switches_and_Preset_Dim
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/SoftStart
Sometimes we forget the KISS method. ;D
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New version of the wall switches and lamp modules have soft start.
Wall switches also have preset dim.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Newer_Wall_Switches_and_Preset_Dim
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/SoftStart
I am aware of that Brian...my spotlights use them.
Can I tell AHP that the old wall switch is something other than a WS467?
Is the fact that I'm telling AHP that my older switch is a WS467 confusing it somehow?
Like maybe a PLM03, of which I have one, which also works 100% of the time.
Thanks.
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If the WS467 is an older one you can continue to use the WS467 setting. If the module is bought after 2005, presume it is Soft Start and use the the 2 Two-way modules in AHP for them. They are the LM14A Two Way Lamp module (for all lamp modules) and the AM14A Two Way Appliance Module (for all Appliance Modules). There is also a AM15A 3-Pin Two Way Appliance Module. All 3 are no longer made, but AHP still has them.
Soft Start modules were made after 2005, but X10 never changed the part numbers.
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If the WS467 is an older one you can continue to use the WS467 setting. If the module is bought after 2005, presume it is Soft Start and use the the 2 Two-way modules in AHP for them. They are the LM14A Two Way Lamp module (for all lamp modules) and the AM14A Two Way Appliance Module (for all Appliance Modules). There is also a AM15A 3-Pin Two Way Appliance Module. All 3 are no longer made, but AHP still has them.
Soft Start modules were made after 2005, but X10 never changed the part numbers.
Thank you Dan.
As I mentioned a couple of posts back, it is a non soft start wall switch.
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What I don't understand is why my PalmPad can send a signal to the TM751 which turns on the wall switch in question with 100% results and the CM15A together with AHP cannot.
Does the CM15A not send an RF signal to the TM751 as well?
I am assuming that since it has an antenna, that it does just that.
Is there something I am not understanding here?
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Transceivers send their signals to modules, AHP gets the status from the modules. They do not send signals to AHP.
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No.
The CM15A sends power line signals not RF.
The visible antenna is a receiving antenna for things like your Palm Pad.
It can also be set to Tranceive the RF House Code. Just like the TM751 can.
Tools
Hardware Configuration.
Tranceived House Code.
I believe the default is Auto and for some it transceives none without picking the ones you want.
It also have an RF transmitter in it and that antenna is internal to the case.
Unless the command is specified as an RF command the power line one is normally used.
Unplug the CM15A from the wall outlet and try the TM751 in the exact outlet the CM15A was in.
See if it is 100% from that outlet.
In your old setup all the power line commands where being sent from the TM751s position. As the CM17A sent an RF signal to it and it sent the power line signals to the switches and other power line devices.
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What I don't understand is why my PalmPad can send a signal to the TM751 which turns on the wall switch in question with 100% results and the CM15A together with AHP cannot.
To add a little to Brian and Dan's comments;
I would use the CM15A as the one and only tranceiver in the house. The TM751 is an "impolite" tranceiver, meaning as soon as it picks up an RF command, it passes it on to the powerline without regard to any other X10 transmissions which might be taking place. The CM15A is polite. It checks the powerlines for other X10 signals before transceiving in incoming RF command. The downside is the TM751 has a better receiver and antenna to receive RF commands so seems to be more sensitive when range is an issue. There are work-arounds for the CM15A range problems.
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No.
The CM15A sends power line signals not RF.
The visible antenna is a receiving antenna for things like your Palm Pad.
It can also be set to Tranceive the RF House Code. Just like the TM751 can.
Tools
Hardware Configuration.
Tranceived House Code.
I believe the default is Auto and for some it transceives none without picking the ones you want.
It also have an RF transmitter in it and that antenna is internal to the case.
Unless the command is specified as an RF command the power line one is normally used.
Unplug the CM15A from the wall outlet and try the TM751 in the exact outlet the CM15A was in.
See if it is 100% from that outlet.
In your old setup all the power line commands where being sent from the TM751s position. As the CM17A sent an RF signal to it and it sent the power line signals to the switches and other power line devices.
Good call Brian!
When I plug the TM751 into the outlet for the CM15A, I get spotty results from the wall switch. Sometimes it takes two or three short presses on the PalmPad to made it change state...or one long press.
This is the branch where all my audio/video equipment for the livingroom are plugged in (6 separate components).
I guess what I could do is program the CM15A with AHP, download the timers/macros to it, unplug the USB and move it to where the TM751 usually is.
A bit of a cludge but it beats re-wiring the livingroom.
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Or you could put a X10 type filter on the equipment.
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Or you could put a X10 type filter on the equipment.
Thanks Brian but I don't want to spend any more money on this.
So is my idea detailed above a viable one?
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Moving the CM15A should also work.
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As a test, you could shut down and unplug all of the A/V equipment, and see if that makes a difference with the light (you might want to test with both the CM15A and the TM751).
If it works fine with that stuff shut down and unplugged, then the problem is that the signal isn't making it past all of the noisy equipment / signal suckers with enough strength left to trigger the switch.
You can either move the CM15A to a different circuit / outlet, or put the A/V stuff on a plug-in filter (filters are pretty inexpensive).
I had a problem recently with three switches that refused to work at night. It turns out that my neighbor across the street had a CFL bulb in one of his outdoor fixtures, that was starting to fail. Generated enough noise to kill three of my switches from all the way across the street. Replaced the bulb and all was fine. Just an example of what noise can do to X10 signals.
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I had a problem recently with three switches that refused to work at night. It turns out that my neighbor across the street had a CFL bulb in one of his outdoor fixtures, that was starting to fail. Generated enough noise to kill three of my switches from all the way across the street.
Wow! Are you and your neighbor on the same (pole) transformer?
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Moving the CM15A should also work.
Thanks Brian.
What I was asking before was, is it ok to move the CM15A to the current location of my TM751 after I have set up and downloaded the timer settings to it?
My understanding is that the USB connection is only needed to add modules and timer/macro settings to the CM15A.
Correct?
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Yes you should be able to move it to where the TM751 was. After downloading the timers to the CM15A.
It may have to be reconnected to the computer when the time changes. To reset the clock in it.
I have seen messages that the DST dates where never change in the CM15A so it may have to be done four times a tear.
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Yes you should be able to move it to where the TM751 was. After downloading the timers to the CM15A.
It may have to be reconnected to the computer when the time changes. To reset the clock in it.
I have seen messages that the DST dates where never change in the CM15A so it may have to be done four times a tear.
Thanks Brian.
I'll do a test and report back.
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Wow! Are you and your neighbor on the same (pole) transformer?
Yes, as are about 8 other houses. He is the third-closest (electrically), but he has several outdoor CFLs, that seemed to come on at the same time my problems would start for the evening.
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Gee and most of us have problems getting the X10 signals from one phase to the other. Through the transformer on the pole.
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Gee and most of us have problems getting the X10 signals from one phase to the other. Through the transformer on the pole.
The problem was not getting the X10 signals from one phase to the other, but that the noise level was so high from the bad CFL, that it screwed with the Automatic Gain Control of my Smarthome Insteon switches (the only ones that were having problems), and messed up signal reception for them. I know the signal was VERY strong at the switch (as measured with my dad's oscilloscope), so it really was the high noise level.
The noise was high enough that even the XTB-IIR's super-powerful signal was not enough to overcome it.
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My jest was most X10 signals could not get through the transformer and your noise was strong enough to be from a different house.
I have an LED light bulb that makes noise so bad it is on every circuit in my home as tested by an XTBM. I also have Insteon devices in my setup many have an X10 Primary Address in them.
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I know the signal was VERY strong at the switch (as measured with my dad's oscilloscope), so it really was the high noise level.
The noise was high enough that even the XTB-IIR's super-powerful signal was not enough to overcome it.
Double WOW!! Those are some very noisy CFLs. Maybe cheapest solution would be just to buy some "good" CFLs and give to the neighbor. I buy GE brand at Sams Club and although they are noisy, the noise does not seem to bother X10. My XTBM doesn't see the noise but my Elk meter pegs the bar graph, which indicates to me that the GE CFL noise is not at X10 frequencies or not happening at the X10 transmit window.
Puck edit: fixed quote.
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Double WOW!! Those are some very noisy CFLs. Maybe cheapest solution would be just to buy some "good" CFLs and give to the neighbor. I buy GE brand at Sams Club and although they are noisy, the noise does not seem to bother X10. My XTBM doesn't see the noise but my Elk meter pegs the bar graph, which indicates to me that the GE CFL noise is not at X10 frequencies or not happening at the X10 transmit window.
Puck edit: fixed quote.
It was a failing bulb. He has several others of the same type and vintage (about 5 years old) that were not creating noise (we tested them one at a time).
I bought him two new CFL "bug bulbs," the same type I use. Not only did that fix my problem, but he said he has fewer bugs around his front door at night. ;-)
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Yes you should be able to move it to where the TM751 was. After downloading the timers to the CM15A.
It may have to be reconnected to the computer when the time changes. To reset the clock in it.
I have seen messages that the DST dates where never change in the CM15A so it may have to be done four times a tear.
Thanks Brian.
I'll do a test and report back.
Hi Brian.
I did a test and the CM15A worked perfectly during my vacation.
I stored the timers and plugged the CM15A into the same branch as the livingroom lights and it handled the outside spotlights on a different branch as well with no problems.
It was not connected to my computer during my vacation.
But...
Something strange is now happening.
I unplugged the CM15A from the wall and it is still not connected to my computer but the timers are still turning on and off my lights on the pre-arranged schedule I stored.
How is this possible if the CM15A is sitting on a shelf and there is no connection from my computer to the lamp modules?
This is really strange!
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I unplugged the CM15A from the wall and it is still not connected to my computer but the timers are still turning on and off my lights on the pre-arranged schedule I stored.
I assume you mean the shcedule is still running in the CM15A (and that will stop when the batteries run down) because there is no way it can actually control the lights without being plugged in....
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I note that if you uninstall AHP completely and reinstall it from scratch, it works fine. Check my topic above this one.
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I unplugged the CM15A from the wall and it is still not connected to my computer but the timers are still turning on and off my lights on the pre-arranged schedule I stored.
I assume you mean the shcedule is still running in the CM15A (and that will stop when the batteries run down) because there is no way it can actually control the lights without being plugged in....
I just figured out what's happening.
The CM15A, although not plugged into the wall, is sending its signals to the TM751. As soon as the CM15A's batteries run out....the actions will stop.
So I'll just reconnect the CM15A to my computer and delete the timers...problem solved.