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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: Brandt on September 18, 2010, 07:46:28 PM

Title: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on September 18, 2010, 07:46:28 PM
Can you extend the length of a CM11a cable with a coupler and a standard 4 conductor telephone cord? If so, how long can it be?
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on September 18, 2010, 08:05:52 PM
Well, if the CM11A only has 4 wires, then probably.

I've never tried it with a CM11A, but it is a basic serial device and I have extended serial lines using CAT5 wiring probably 100 feet or so and run reliably at nearly 20,000 bits per second.  I'm pretty sure the CM11A doesn't talk that fast, even without looking up its specs.   ;)

It will depend mostly on how much power the CM11A can put on its serial lines.

 >!
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: dbemowsk on September 19, 2010, 11:09:02 AM
I would say that you should be able to use any 4 conductor telephone extension with RJ11 jacks.  Make sure though that it is a 4 conductor cable and not a 2 conductor.  The RS232 standard states a maximum length of 50 feet, but if you are communicating at lower baud rates like 9600 you should be able to go longer with some degree of reliability.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on September 19, 2010, 01:21:46 PM
What baud rate does x10 use?
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: JeffVolp on September 19, 2010, 03:22:47 PM
What baud rate does x10 use?

From the X10 "Interface Communication Protocol" document:

The serial parameters for communications between the interface and PC are as follows:

   Baud Rate:   4,800bps
   Parity:      None
   Data Bits:   8
   Stop Bits:   1

(Google is your friend.)

Jeff
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on September 20, 2010, 11:39:41 AM
Cool thanks, I'm going to plug my CM11a into the XTB-IIR, but it will require me to run some telephone cable...
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: pconroy on September 21, 2010, 06:57:50 PM
I had about 30' of cord in between mine at the PC a few years ago.  No problem.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on September 25, 2010, 02:26:42 PM
Wow so I bought an rj-11 telephone coupler and i pull the cable out of the bottom of the HD11a only to find out the jack size is different :-/

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brian H on September 25, 2010, 02:34:04 PM
The jack on the CM11A {probably the other variants of the CM11A also} is not an RJ11/12.
It is the smaller one used for connecting the handset to the phone base.

I will search around and see if I can find anything out.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on September 25, 2010, 02:36:17 PM
oh I see it is a 4P4C:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4P4C


so I guess I need a 4P4C couple and cable...  B:(
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brian H on September 25, 2010, 02:51:07 PM
Yes if you can find them.
I believe it is also known as an RJ9.


Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: dbemowsk on September 25, 2010, 09:34:30 PM
If I remember correctly, an RJ9 will fit into an RJ11 jack and still work.  Much like an RJ11 will fit into an RJ45 jack.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: pconroy on September 26, 2010, 12:16:16 AM
Yes if you can find them.
I believe it is also known as an RJ9.




Wow - the only thing that pops into my head is RJ22.
But that's from a set of neurons not activated in 10 years!
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brian H on September 26, 2010, 06:43:45 AM
Yes the you can plug the 4P4C connectors into the 6P6C or 8P8C jacks. As the wiring works from the center out for the pairs of wires.
Well except for real networking cables where the pairs don't work out from the center.

I guess if you where careful.
You could get some 4P4C connectors and make a custom cable.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: dave w on September 26, 2010, 10:18:29 AM
But that's from a set of neurons not activated in 10 years!
Exciting when that happens!  rofl
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: MichaelHlubb on September 26, 2010, 12:22:02 PM
an Important note here!
RJ-11 / RJ-14 your standard telephone cord, typically use from phone to wall jack same size connector, but one is a single line 2 pins used while  the other is a two line four pins used.
RJ-45 standard 8 pin, used for various connections, ethernet being the one we're most used to.

While it's true that a RJ-11 or RJ-14 plug will fit inside a RJ-45 jack. I do NOT like to see it done. looking at the RJ-45 jack, you will see the two outside pins that will not be used with the smaller RJ11/14 plug.
Now look at that plug, see the outside square shape? the two corners are going to bend the outside pins of the RJ-45 jack, likely to a point where they will no longer work, as in broken,  forever.
( as an aside, where I've seen this is when a computer gets hooked up as someone's home by someone who doesn't know which connectors go where, and they think the ethernet connecor is for the phone line, it'll fit, but the network card is not likely to work afterwards.

With that said, IF the two outside pins on the RJ-45 are never used for anything, then go ahead and plug in the RJ11/14. Better to make a cable for that device connection.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on September 29, 2010, 07:24:51 PM
A 4P4C will allow up to 4 Conductors,  it is popularly, but incorrectly, called RJ22, RJ10, or RJ9. It is also commonly referred to as a "Handset Connector" because of the most popular usage for the connector. This handset connector is actually not a Registered Jack at all, since it was never intended to connect directly to the telephone service lines.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 01, 2010, 02:04:56 PM
Do CM11a's also have 4p4c jacks or only the HD11a?
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brian H on October 01, 2010, 02:14:01 PM
My CM11A has a 4p4c.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 01, 2010, 02:29:02 PM
Thanks. I got some CM11a's coming my way to replace my failed HD11a. Going to a store to see if they got couplers/cables with 4p4c..or just the plugs so I can crimp my own..
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brian H on October 01, 2010, 02:38:36 PM
I hope you find some premade.

I have seen 4p4c plugs and a compatible crimper on a few web sites.
Some of the 6p6c crimpers may not work with the 4p4c connectors.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 01, 2010, 04:56:51 PM
Well, I found a handset cable coupler and some 4p4c plugs at Frys....Hopefully the crimper I have can handle 4p4c...never tried those before
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brian H on October 01, 2010, 06:09:43 PM
Glad you found them and hope your cripmer works.

Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 10, 2010, 06:16:34 PM
ok the crimper kinda worked. I had to do it a couple times as the 4p4c is smaller and didn't fit in there tightly. Well now that my extension cord is ran that I crimped I'm getting the weird invalid status responses that I saw when I thought my HD11a was failing. Now that I know that means bad/failing cable I can easily fix it.

I noticed when looking at the CM11a 4p4c plug with the clip down, that the yellow was on the right. I didn't notice this until after I crimped my cable by looking at a standard telephone cable with yellow on the left. I don't think it makes a difference because I just crimped a straight through cable with yellow on the left on both ends...or does it?

Any suggestions?

EDIT: Yeah I noticed the yellow wire switches sides on opposite ends of a standard telephone cable. Also the second time around I was unable to crimp the 4p4c with my standard telephone crimper...  :(

Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brian H on October 10, 2010, 07:03:20 PM
I believe you are correct. It switches sides.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 10, 2010, 07:39:30 PM
I looked at the links you posted in this old thread: http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=19206.0

And the links denote a straight through cable, although did some reading and people say store bought handset cables have worked for them which are usually crossover.

I shouldn't have to be going any crossover type cable, because that should all be handled by the stock CM11a cable. So I would think a straight cable would work...What about the coupler? I hope that is not doing any crossover...
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brian H on October 11, 2010, 06:14:11 AM
Since I don't have any 4P4C jacks or plugs. I physically observed a 6P6C and my CM11A Cable. It looks like to keep the signals in the proper order.
The extension cable should have the colors matching. When the plugs are held together. Like you where trying to connect them to each other with the locking tabs up. I believe that is a standard phone wiring scheme. That is probably why the users saying they used a headphone cable worked.

An on line search found cross over and straight 4P4C couplers. Maybe a meter with real small diameter leads could check continuity from side to side on the coupler.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 11, 2010, 11:52:17 AM
I popped the coupler open and found that by looking into the jack from either side, black will be on the left, so the black wire from the CM11a cable and the black wire from the extension cable should NOT mirror each other when put head to head in this case. The extension cable should have the black wire on the left with the clip facing down on both ends.

I will need to run back to Fry's and get more 4p4c plugs as I went through all 6 trying to get it to work  :(

I should also pick up the proper crimper there too  :'
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 12, 2010, 01:12:26 AM
Ok, got more 4p4c plugs, got a good Paladin Tools crimper that can do 4p, 6p, and 8p. I made good crimps on both ends. Tested the continuity with a DMM. It couldn't see the CM11a. I clipped off one end and reversed the wires. crimped again. It still couldn't see the CM11a. I noticed when testing the resistance that there was slight resistance in the cable and I am using an FTDI USB to Serial converter. Maybe it just doesn't have enough power to get the signal down the lines...?
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on October 12, 2010, 01:15:16 AM
Ok, got more 4p4c plugs, got a good Paladin Tools crimper that can do 4p, 6p, and 8p. I made good crimps on both ends. Tested the continuity with a DMM. It couldn't see the CM11a. I clipped off one end and reversed the wires. crimped again. It still couldn't see the CM11a. I noticed when testing the resistance that there was slight resistance in the cable and I am using an FTDI USB to Serial converter. Maybe it just doesn't have enough power to get the signal down the lines...?

Hate to waste plugs and cable, but maybe make a shorter cable and test with that first, then go for the long distance?
 >!
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 12, 2010, 01:22:03 AM
ugh...i've gone through almost 2 packages of 4p4c plugs. I'd probably have to return to Fry's for another one...maybe the Shack carries them?

Even if a shorter run worked, and the 25' run did not...Then it still wouldn't do me any good :-/


I really want my CM11a plugged into the XTB-IIR!

Maybe if I used Cat5 instead of Cat3?

Maybe if I used a really long straight through 15?-pin serial cable (expensive)?
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brian H on October 12, 2010, 06:35:45 AM
I can think of a few things.

The CM11A uses the RI {Ring Indicate} signal. The USB to Serial Converter may not support the RI input from the CM11A?
Though your automation program may not use it if it is not Active Home.

The CM11A does not have a negative power supply voltage for its RS232 output signals and steals it from the computers RS232 Transmit Data Output signal into the CM11A. Maybe it is too low by the time it gets back to the converter. As it is routed through a few components like diodes and resistors.

You are using CAT3 wire and not phone style wire? I would think CAT3 vs CAT5 at the data rate and distance the wire length is. Would not make too much difference.

Have you used the CM11A with the USB converter and just the CM11 cable? That would give some clues as to where to check next.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 12, 2010, 11:31:04 AM
Heyu does use the RI signal.

CM11a works perfect with the usb converter and the stock cable.

I thought telephone line was cat3. my mistake.

I am possibly thinking about using an old cat 5 cable I have with the rj45 to db9 adapters on both ends and connect the stock cm11a cable directly to the cm11a.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: pconroy on October 12, 2010, 11:34:50 AM
Maybe it just doesn't have enough power to get the signal down the lines...?

Just a point that may or may not be relevant.

When I made my CM11A extension cable - it was long, like 50' or so.
But, yes, it was hooked up to a real DB9 serial port on the PC.

This was 6 or 8 years ago, tho'...
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 12, 2010, 11:36:08 AM
Here is the adapter I'm using:

http://www.parallax.com/Store/Microcontrollers/BASICStampModules/tabid/134/txtSearch/28030/List/1/ProductID/378/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName%2CProductName

Since it says RS232, I am assuming RS232 levels and not TTL levels.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brian H on October 12, 2010, 12:26:22 PM
The DB9 adapter to CAT5 network cable may work fine.

I did a test with my CM11A; spare IBM laptop and a breakout box for RS232. I am not sure when AH uses the RI but disconnected it didn't seem to care.
Title: Re: CM11a cable
Post by: Brandt on October 13, 2010, 01:24:34 AM
Well I don't have rj-45 to DB9 adapters at the moment, so I thought I would try it with serial cables...not one, but two. Here is what I got working!

[Sheevaplug] -> [USB A/mini cable] -> [USB Hub] -> [USB Cable] -> [Parallax USB-RS232] -> [Serial Cable] -> [Serial Cable] -> [CM11a Cable] -> [CM11a] -> [XTB-IIR]


but the other more preferred method didn't work:

[Sheevaplug] -> [USB A/mini cable] -> [USB Hub] -> [USB Cable] -> [Parallax USB-RS232] -> [CM11a Cable] -> [Coupler] -> [25' telephone cable] -> [CM11a] -> [XTB-IIR]


The serial cables are definitely more robust than the telephone cable.. I wonder if that has anything to do with it...


The whole point of doing this was so that I could plug the CM11a into the XTB-IIR to try an improve the dimming with a palm pad. Using a TM751 with palmpad dimming is quick, smooth, flawless. but with the w800usb and cm11a dimming takes forever...approx. 3 seconds in between each dim step.