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🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: bvw on September 28, 2010, 10:26:35 AM

Title: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on September 28, 2010, 10:26:35 AM
Hello X10 Community. Please help.
My AHP System had been working fine for years, until recently.
The CM15A began to trigger my timers earlier and earlier as each day would pass.  Now, after a “Clear Memory” and new download, on Day 1 – timers generally trigger as programmed; on Day 2 – timers trigger 10 minutes early; on Day 3 – 40 minutes early; Day 4 – 90 minutes early, etc..
To date, I have installed a new CM15A, performed numerous “clear memory” and fresh downloads, ran the CM15A on each of the house phases, ran two CM15A’s simultaneously with one on each phase, installed filters on all noise generating gear, deinstalled AHP 3.228 and installed AHP 3.271, and built a new ahx file from scratch.  Same result.
I’m still thinking it must be software related somehow. (Running XP SP2).
I had experienced a few AHP software hangs recently and perhaps corrupted a file.
(BTW, When I began to build a new ahx after the new AHP version install, I was surprised to see that my old Hardware Config settings were still in place – I expected them to be deleted during the deinstall).
The only other change that I made to my X10 network prior to this problem, that I can recall, is that I replaced a WS467 wall switch with a XPS3 so that I could run a CFL without putting noise on the line, but the timers continued to run fine right after that change. 
I’m stumped. I would really appreciate your advice and direction.
Thank you,
BVW
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Dan Lawrence on September 28, 2010, 01:46:22 PM
Post one of your timers that is running earlier and earlier so we can see what's going on?  Also do any of your timers have offsets like "30 minutes before dusk"?
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on September 28, 2010, 02:48:14 PM
Hi, Every single timer triggers earlier and earlier by day, both fixed timers and those with dusk+offsets.

(Sorry, couldn't figure out a better way to post timers here - can I attach screen shots?).

Here's a copy/paste from the general report:
LIVING ROOM
Module Name Code / Trigger Model
Lamp by Steps H1 RR501
T I M E R S
# Dates             On Time Dawn Offset Dusk Offset Off Time Dawn Offset Dusk Offset Security Repeat Enabled Days
1 01/01 to 12/31 6:45 AM                                   7:45 AM                                               Yes     Yes      Weekdays
2 01/01 to 12/31 Dusk                       00:10         12:10 AM                                              Yes     Yes      Daily

Radio H2 AM486
T I M E R S
# Dates             On Time Dawn Offset Dusk Offset Off Time Dawn Offset Dusk Offset Security Repeat Enabled Days
1 01/01 to 12/31 8:00 AM                                   4:45 PM                                               Yes     Yes      Weekdays
 
 
 
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: jmanley on September 28, 2010, 04:01:42 PM
It sounds to me like the internal clock of the CM15A is wonky.

If it were the dusk/dawn offsets, then it would change by no more than a minute or two a day... 10 minutes shift on the first day, an additional 30 minute shift the second day, and an additional 50 minute shift on the third day is much more than dusk/dawn shift.

Do you happen to have another CM15A that you could try in its place?
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on September 28, 2010, 04:30:47 PM
This is the third CM15A that I have tried (I just received this one from X10 the other day).
That's why I believe that the problem lies within my downloads some way.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: J.B. on September 28, 2010, 04:39:40 PM
It may sound odd, but have you tried going to Tools/Hardware Configuration and manually enter your longitude and latitude?
If not, try this and then download to the CM15A and test your timers again.
It also might not hurt to try different dusk/dawn resolution settings.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on September 28, 2010, 04:52:14 PM
J.B., Thank you for your idea. Believe it or not, I actually did that exact thing today, as well as changing the dawn/dusk resolution just to see if changing the Hardware Config download would make any difference. School is still out. I plan on leaving my PC running for now in order to capture a more comprehensive history of commands sent in the Activity Monitor.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on September 28, 2010, 10:02:31 PM
bvw,

From what you posted above, it appears you have "Security" checked on the timers.  Uncheck it.

The purpose of "Security" is to make the timers drift so they don't always happen at the same time and gives your house a more "natural" lived in look when you're away.

The variation is to make it appear that a person is controlling the lights and not a timer.  ;)
 >!
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Knightrider on September 28, 2010, 10:06:31 PM
just to throw in a suggestion:

It's been posted that noise on the powerline can cause a disruption in the counter on the cm15a that tracks time.

http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=17586.0
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Noam on September 29, 2010, 09:33:08 AM
J.B., Thank you for your idea. Believe it or not, I actually did that exact thing today, as well as changing the dawn/dusk resolution just to see if changing the Hardware Config download would make any difference. School is still out. I plan on leaving my PC running for now in order to capture a more comprehensive history of commands sent in the Activity Monitor.

Here's another thought:
I've seen a number of reports that running with the CM15A disconnected from the PC can cause the time to drift, because of variations in the 60 Hz on the power line.
From what I can tell, most people were able to correct that by keeping the CM15A connected to the PC, with the PC on (AHP doesn't need to be open).
You might want to see if that helps at all.

Have you added anything else in the house recently, that might be cause noise on the line?
What about any neighbors on the same transformer? I had noise problems created by a faulty CFL bulb that my neighbor was using across the street. You never know where noise can come from, or what havoc it can cause.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on September 29, 2010, 10:26:16 AM
Thank you all very much for your thoughts, very interesting reading.
I have always kept my CM15A plugged in to the same receptacle but I don't run the connected PC 7x24.
Current Status:
Yesterday I modified the lat/long and the dawn/dusk resolution settings in the Hardware Config.
I left my PC running overnight to populate the Activity Monitor.
Results so Far: All of my overnight and morning timers triggered as programmed.
Now is this because the PC was left on or because some corruption was corrected by modifying the Hardware Config?
I will shut down my PC today and see what the timers do this evening.
(I sure hope it isn't a powerline issue because I don't believe that it is noise generated from within our house).
Thanks again.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on September 30, 2010, 12:30:03 PM
Bad news. Last evening the timers were triggering 10 minutes early and by this morning they were triggering 20 minutes early.
Based on your feedback so far, it must then be a powerline issue that is causing a disruption in the CM15A time counter.
Unfortunately, we are not able to keep a connected PC running 7x24, and we certainly don't want to abandon AHP after all these years.
So now what is the best method to identify and correct this powerline issue?  And/or how does one correct variations in the 60 Hz on the powerline?
I have already installed XPPF filters on all our electronic equipment, and nothing new has been brought into the house recently except a Washer/Dryer set. I can try removing all the CFLs as well.
Also, as a note, all my timers always go through (ie., none are being blocked by noise), so apparently, only the CM15A time counter is being impacted.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on September 30, 2010, 01:59:35 PM

Is the CM15A the ONLY thing whose clock is drifting, or do you have other devices (various clocks, microwave or oven timer, etc.) that are also drifting with respect to actual time?  If everything is drifting, then the 60Hz coming from the power company is off slightly.  If only the CM15A is drifting, then there must be some sort of powerline noise that is interfering with its 60Hz reference.

In the first case, there really isn't a practical solution.  In the second case, the offending noise source must somehow be blocked.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on October 01, 2010, 12:13:54 PM
Hello Jeff,
The CM15A is the only clock in the house that apparently is drifting with respect to actual time (and always in one direction).
Jeff, does it make sense to you that an offending noise source could impact only the CM15A clock and nothing else regarding the X10 network of devices? And would you think that the offending noise source is most likely within our house?
Thanks,
Bill
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Brian H on October 01, 2010, 12:36:00 PM
When you have the CM15A disconnected. Is the USB cable hanging loose on the interfaces connector?
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 01, 2010, 01:59:11 PM
Jeff, does it make sense to you that an offending noise source could impact only the CM15A clock and nothing else regarding the X10 network of devices? And would you think that the offending noise source is most likely within our house?

If only the CM15A is drifting (and that is true for three different units), then the 60Hz powerline frequency is fine.  While I don't think we can totally rule out some sort of software quirk, my guess is that somehow noise is getting into its internal clock, and causing it to count extra ticks.

How that is happening really depends on the firmware inside the unit, and where in the cycle it might be susceptible to noise causing an extra count.  Most devices use zero crossings of the powerline for their time reference.  If the CM15A firmware does not have some sort of gate to prevent double counting, then a large transient near the zero crossing might cause an extra count.  That might be caused by a heavily loaded dimmer near minimum or maximum brightness, or a solid-state relay controlling a heavy load (switching on just after the zero crossing.)

There is really no easy way to identify whether the noise source is inside your home or coming in over the powerline.  The new washer/dryer set might be generating noise when it is running.  Can you correlate the time shift with days that equipment is running?

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on October 01, 2010, 06:53:52 PM
Reply to Brian H:
I just shut my PC down and leave the CM15A plugged in and the USB cable plugged into both the CM15A & the PC.

Reply to Jeff:
We don't use the washer/dryer every day, yet the timers will trigger earlier & earlier each and every day (and not by any obvious constant factor that I can figure).
I plan on swapping out all our CFLs this weekend with incandescent to see if they can be ruled out. After that, I just don't know what else to test at this point.
Nothing else new has been added to the household so perhaps some electrical device might be going bad and causing interference that I am not yet aware of.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on October 06, 2010, 10:12:40 AM
Current Status:
All CFLs were removed from household and all timers utilizing any form of variable time (dusk, dawn, security) were deleted.
This resulted in no change - all timers continue to trigger earlier & earlier each day.
If anyone has any further advice or direction for me it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Dan Lawrence on October 06, 2010, 01:51:50 PM
One other question:  Do you have a filter on the PC's line cord? If so, could the filter have failed?   I have a filter on the line that the PC and  our two printers are on.  The CM15A is plugged into an outlet that is fed to a different breaker than the one that powers the PC. 

I have had AHP since 2005, I had a CM11A before that, never had any time shift.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: pconroy on October 06, 2010, 03:11:34 PM
and not by any obvious constant factor that I can figure

well that's the answer to the question i was going to ask.

You said three CM15s and all are doing this?
PC's clock is not drifting either?

Where were the CM15s bought from?
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on October 06, 2010, 09:49:44 PM
Bump!
bvw,

From what you posted above, it appears you have "Security" checked on the timers, or am I misreading that?

If you do, then uncheck it.

The purpose of "Security" is to make the timers drift so they don't always happen at the same time and gives your house a more "natural" lived in look when you're away.

The variation is to make it appear that a person is controlling the lights and not a timer.  ;)
 >!
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Noam on October 07, 2010, 08:51:44 AM
... From what you posted above, it appears you have "Security" checked on the timers, or am I misreading that?

If you do, then uncheck it.

The purpose of "Security" is to make the timers drift so they don't always happen at the same time and gives your house a more "natural" lived in look when you're away.

The variation is to make it appear that a person is controlling the lights and not a timer.  ;)
 >!

I would have agreed at first, but bvw reported that the timers keep getting earlier each day. I thought that "security" mode simply shifted them a bit, in either direction, but kept them within a certain window of the original time. It sounds like the timers are going outside of the window, as they execute earlier and earlier each day.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on October 07, 2010, 10:38:59 AM
Reply to Dan:
I have a filter on the UPS that my PC is plugged into. I will swap it out for another in case it is defective. The UPS and CM15A are on different circuits but are on the same circuit breaker phase.  My AHP network has run flawlessly since I upgraded to it when it was first introduced (I have been on x10 for many years, three different homes), until a few months ago when the early triggers began.

Reply to PConroy:
The PC clock is not drifting.
All but one CM15A has been purchased from X10, one was purchased from TheHomeAutomationStore.

Reply to Bill & Noam:
Noam is correct in that the timers shift in only one direction, more and more each day.
I did, however, delete all timers using security, dusk, or dawn shifting during this troubleshooting phase in order to eliminate those time shifting variables.

What I have observed so far is that whatever noise that may be on the powerline is only impacting the CM15A clock. All timers and RF macros are being triggered and there are no phantom triggers occurring.  Each time I boot up the connected PC, it does in fact reset the CM15A clock.
After I shut down, the first few timers will trigger as programmed and then each one after that will trigger earlier and earlier. What could be generating just enough noise to impact the clock only? One would think that that would take a great deal of noise.
Anyway, even though this is a new install of the AHP software, I'm going to install the software on another PC and start out fresh just to see what happens.


Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Dan Lawrence on October 07, 2010, 01:10:19 PM
Reply to Dan:
I have a filter on the UPS that my PC is plugged into. I will swap it out for another in case it is defective. The UPS and CM15A are on different circuits but are on the same circuit breaker phase.  My AHP network has run flawlessly since I upgraded to it when it was first introduced (I have been on x10 for many years, three different homes), until a few months ago when the early triggers began.

Some UPS's will start putting various types of noise on the powerline after a while. Since the UPS and the CM15 are on the same phase, that may be the source.  Unless you really need the UPS, remove it and see what happens.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: MichaelHlubb on October 07, 2010, 04:18:09 PM
Each time I boot up the connected PC, it does in fact reset the CM15A clock.
After I shut down, the first few timers will trigger as programmed and then each one after that will trigger earlier and earlier.

Based on the above, why not "fix"the problem by leaving the computer on and attached to the interface? In fact,  some of the addons to AHP require the computer to be running to work, i.e. they are not stored in / run from the interface. 
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: AZDoug on October 08, 2010, 09:51:14 AM
I moved "up" to the CM15 in Dec '09 after more than a decade of using CM11s.  Almost immediately I noticed that the clock was moving at an unacceptable rate.  I added a chime and set it off 3 times a day to track the clock movement.  The worst that I can remember was a 2 minute change from 8AM to Noon. 

The timers were triggering earlier, which is consistent with noise on the powerline.  I tried moving the CM15 to other outlets around the house with no success.   After going through about everything recommended here and other places, the clock still moved.

Some time in the Spring, I installed a CM11 with similar timers and a different chime.  The first thing I noticed was that the CM11 was rock solid.  After a while I noticed that the CM11 clock slowed slightly, while the CM15 ran fast.  I used an LCD WWV-synced clock as well as a regularly synced PC clock to check the clock drift. 

And then, only a short while into the experiment the CM15 clock quit moving.  NOTHING in the house changed (that we could perceive).  The chimes are still sounding and the CM15 clock accuracy is holding as well as I could hope for. 

While I was having the problem, I plugged in an older X10 LED clock/timer that I had bought (unused) at an estate sale.  The clock on it also advanced, consistent with noise on the power line. 
I wish I could say I had a good handle on the cause or solution, but I don't.  The only thing I'm certain of is that if it returns, I'm going to dig out my CM11s again.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 08, 2010, 10:35:00 AM

If this is indeed caused by powerline noise, you might want to try a beta version of my "tuned signal-sucker".  It significantly attenuates powerline noise except right at the X10 carrier frequency.  It does attenuate X10 signals slightly, and is best paired with a signal booster to insure the signal levels are well above the background noise level.  However, plugging one in near your CM15A may help with the clock drift.  Contact me through a PM if you want to pursue this.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on October 08, 2010, 11:02:42 AM
Thank you AZDoug for sharing your experience. Your note about the old X10 clock/timer also advancing was telling. Is it also true that the "noise" issue you were having at the time only impacted the clock and nothing else, like me? I will keep your CM11 experiment in mind as I continue forward.

Reply to JeffVolp:
This morning I installed AHP (v 3.271) and built a new .ahx on a laptop that had never had an AHP install previous. This is to ensure, I hope, once and forall that this is not a software issue.
I am very interested in your offer (I do not own a signal booster). I will contact you early next week after I know the results of my laptop experiment. Thanks.

Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: dave w on October 08, 2010, 07:25:19 PM
I moved "up" to the CM15 in Dec '09 after more than a decade of using CM11s.  Almost immediately I noticed that the clock was moving at an unacceptable rate.  I added a chime and set it off 3 times a day to track the clock movement.  The worst that I can remember was a 2 minute change from 8AM to Noon. 

The timers were triggering earlier, which is consistent with noise on the powerline.  I tried moving the CM15 to other outlets around the house with no success.   After going through about everything recommended here and other places, the clock still moved.

Some time in the Spring, I installed a CM11 with similar timers and a different chime.  The first thing I noticed was that the CM11 was rock solid.  After a while I noticed that the CM11 clock slowed slightly, while the CM15 ran fast.  I used an LCD WWV-synced clock as well as a regularly synced PC clock to check the clock drift. 

And then, only a short while into the experiment the CM15 clock quit moving.  NOTHING in the house changed (that we could perceive).  The chimes are still sounding and the CM15 clock accuracy is holding as well as I could hope for. 

While I was having the problem, I plugged in an older X10 LED clock/timer that I had bought (unused) at an estate sale.  The clock on it also advanced, consistent with noise on the power line. 
I wish I could say I had a good handle on the cause or solution, but I don't.  The only thing I'm certain of is that if it returns, I'm going to dig out my CM11s again.
Very logical troubleshooting. Well thought out. It is too bad you did not discover what was causing the original drift. Since you did not find it, my hunch is it will be back.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: AZDoug on October 08, 2010, 10:22:00 PM
[Very logical troubleshooting. Well thought out. It is too bad you did not discover what was causing the original drift. Since you did not find it, my hunch is it will be back.
I couldn't agree with you more.  I concluded several decades ago that there is no such thing as a "one-time-occurence" when it comes to glitches in electronic equipment.   Without some tools, such as Jeff mentions, it's pretty difficult to do more than guess at what might be going on.  My electronic troubling tools consist of a couple old VOMs and, of late, a DVM.

I was more than a bit irked when I read somewhere that this or other products of X10 were value engineered by removing extraneous filter caps here and there.  I don't know if it is true.  One of these days I'm going to open my CM15 and see how many blank component locations are present, expecially those that have a Cxx designator on the board. 

When the source of timing is a 60 Hz 100 volt signal, how expensive is it to wrap some filtering around it to increase the odds that it and only it gets counted?  I used 60 Hz-based digital clocks for many decades, and I don't remember ever seeing one do anything like this.  Of course, most are no longer operating in today's environment, but at the time, I always considered them almost as stable as WWV.   My mother's house still has two or 3 such clocks, and they never have a problem. 

Sorry I can't offer more. 
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Brian H on October 09, 2010, 06:29:53 AM
You may not see many empty Cxxx places on the CM15As main board.

Most engineers would add a .1uf 50 volt cap across the main power supply caps and ICs for some high frequency bypassing. Not there and I guess never thought of as there are no positions for them.

One user here added four .1uf 50 volt caps by soldering them directly across C11,C12 and U1,U2 VCC to VSS. He did say his over all performance was improved.

You can find many of the X10 devices in the FCC database. Some even have schematics available.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Schematics
Note here. My RF Receiver Daughter Card from the CM15A does not match the schematic on the FCC site.

I suspect the clock maybe getting its timing from the Zero Crossing circuit. You can see how it is done in the main board schematic. Not too sophisticated. Small power supply derived from a tap on the power transformers primary. Switching transistor and an opto isolator to the controller circuit.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 09, 2010, 10:15:23 AM
I suspect the clock maybe getting its timing from the Zero Crossing circuit. You can see how it is done in the main board schematic. Not too sophisticated. Small power supply derived from a tap on the power transformers primary. Switching transistor and an opto isolator to the controller circuit.

It isn't so much the simplicity of the circuit, it is what is done with that ZCD input in firmware.  If it merely counts transitions, then there is the potential for a glitch near the zero crossing to cause double counting.  If it ignores that input except when a transition is expected, then it would not be sensitive to noise except for it possibly causing the X10 transmission window to shift slightly.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Brian H on October 09, 2010, 10:22:51 AM
Jeff; Thanks for the clarifications.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Noam on October 09, 2010, 07:57:11 PM
I'm not an engineer, but did anyone look into the possibility of adding a real-time clock chip to the CM15A, so that it doesn't have to rely on the accuracy of the 60Hz to run the clock?
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 09, 2010, 10:53:06 PM
I'm not an engineer, but did anyone look into the possibility of adding a real-time clock chip to the CM15A, so that it doesn't have to rely on the accuracy of the 60Hz to run the clock?

An accurate 60Hz reference is needed to position X10 transmissions, so that must come from the powerline itself.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Noam on October 10, 2010, 08:40:48 PM
I'm not an engineer, but did anyone look into the possibility of adding a real-time clock chip to the CM15A, so that it doesn't have to rely on the accuracy of the 60Hz to run the clock?

An accurate 60Hz reference is needed to position X10 transmissions, so that must come from the powerline itself.

Jeff
Thanks for clarifying. However, could they have designed it so that it uses the 60Hz reference to time the signals correctly, BUT uses the clock chip to keep the actual time to run timers properly?

They use a clock chip to keep the time when the device is unplugged, why not use that all the time?
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 10, 2010, 11:09:07 PM
They use a clock chip to keep the time when the device is unplugged, why not use that all the time?

There is no "clock chip" in the CM15A.  If it does keep time when the power is off, it must be using the microcontroller's internal oscillator.  That does not have the long term accuracy of the 60Hz power grid, which is normally good to seconds a month.  The internal clock in the CY7C63723 is accurate to 1.5% after it adjusts itself from USB communication.  (That's about 20 minutes a day.)

Interesting...   That is similar to the drift quoted at the beginning of this article.  Could it be using the internal clock rather than 60Hz as a reference?

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Brian H on October 11, 2010, 06:08:37 AM
Gee Jeff; That could be a possibility.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: bvw on October 12, 2010, 11:30:16 AM
It has been very educational following this conversational thread, but it seems that determining the root cause of my CM15A clock problem may be on another tack.
Four days ago I installed AHP (v 3.271) and built a new .ahx on a laptop that had never had a previous AHP install. The purpose was to eliminate any possibility of this being a software issue.
All timers have since triggered as programmed. (The connected laptop has been shut down all this time).
I really didn't expect this result because I had already performed an AHP upgrade a few weeks ago on my primary connected PC, and it had no effect on the CM15A clock issue. Perhaps there is a corrupted remnant of the old install on my primary PC, perhaps there is a conflict with some other app. I will continue to monitor and build out the .ahx on the laptop and try to determine what to do next on the primary PC.
Thank you for all your input so far, and please share any thoughts you may have regarding this latest result.
(I wouldn't declare this issue resolved quite yet).
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 12, 2010, 12:04:43 PM

The interesting thing is that you did this on another computer.  The Cypress Semiconductor data sheet on the microcontroller used in the CM15A talks about it adjusting its internal clock based upon the USB connection.  Perhaps the USB port frequency is a factor in the CM15A clock error problems?

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Noam on October 12, 2010, 12:36:25 PM

The interesting thing is that you did this on another computer...
Jeff

Did you verify that the clock on the old PC is keeping correct time (WITHOUT having to connect to the Internet to sync)?

If the clock on the PC is off, perhaps it is passing that inaccuracy over to the CM15A somehow?
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 12, 2010, 12:40:29 PM

I don't thing the RTC in the PC has any relationship to the USB bus speed.  The RTC is normally a separate chip powered by a small battery.  The USB port would either run off the bus clock or some internal clock in the USB controller itself.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Noam on October 12, 2010, 02:14:43 PM
Sorry, I guess my post was confusing.
I was under the impression that when connected, the CM15A syncs its clock to the PC clock. (There are a lot of people who complained their timers were off by one hour, and it turns out their PC time zone was incorrect). Perhaps if the PC's clock is off, and if the CM15A is syncing time to the PC, then it is syncing to a bad time reference, and starts to get off track. I'm not an engineer, so I'm really not qualified to do anything other than throw out my own hair-brained theories. ;-)
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Brian H on October 12, 2010, 02:33:37 PM
Yes I believe the CM15A does set its time if connected to the computer and AHP is run.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Dan Lawrence on October 12, 2010, 08:55:50 PM
I believe you are correct.  My CM15A is plugged into my PC 24/7/365 and has been since 2005 so that's been 5 years of service with no interruptions.  I just updated to 3.185 as a clean install (did a total uninstall of AHP (3.271) first before installing 3.185.  Timers and my keypress Macro work as created.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 12, 2010, 11:06:15 PM

I think we are talking apples and oranges here.  There are two different "clocks" in the CM15A.  One is the internal hardware clock in the microcontroller that steps through the firmware.  The other is the firmware "real-time" clock that determines the time of day needed by the various timers.

The Cypress data sheet says that hardware clock is adjusted from the USB port.  In that case they are "tuning" the hardware clock so it runs within 1.5% of its design center frequency.  That hardware clock is the reference for the firmware real-time clock when the CM15A is not powered from 60Hz.  What isn't certain is whether that hardware clock is still used as the reference for the real-time clock even when the unit is powered from 60Hz.  If that is the case, it would explain some of the clock drift problems reported.

When the CM15A is attached to a computer running ActiveHome Pro, the CM15A firmware real-time clock will be periodically updated to remain in sync with the PC real-time clock.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Noam on October 13, 2010, 09:42:49 AM

I think we are talking apples and oranges here.  There are two different "clocks" in the CM15A.  One is the internal hardware clock in the microcontroller that steps through the firmware.  The other is the firmware "real-time" clock that determines the time of day needed by the various timers.

The Cypress data sheet says that hardware clock is adjusted from the USB port.  In that case they are "tuning" the hardware clock so it runs within 1.5% of its design center frequency.  That hardware clock is the reference for the firmware real-time clock when the CM15A is not powered from 60Hz.  What isn't certain is whether that hardware clock is still used as the reference for the real-time clock even when the unit is powered from 60Hz.  If that is the case, it would explain some of the clock drift problems reported.

When the CM15A is attached to a computer running ActiveHome Pro, the CM15A firmware real-time clock will be periodically updated to remain in sync with the PC real-time clock.

Jeff

Jeff -
When are YOU going to build a replacement for the CM15A, one that actually is designed properly, and works like it should? ;-) Based on my wonderful experience with the XTB-IIR, I can only imagine what you'd come up with!
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 13, 2010, 09:55:13 AM
When are YOU going to build a replacement for the CM15A...

I'm afraid that will never happen.  I'm not interested in the controller end because there are just too many cans of worms to deal with.  There is a lot of good high-end software out there that is PC based, and uses the CM11A for a powerline interface.  Since that unit is long discontinued, and is becoming difficult to find, I may be offering an alternative for that market in the future.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Dave4720 on October 13, 2010, 01:15:47 PM
Since that unit is long discontinued, and is becoming difficult to find, I may be offering an alternative for that market in the future.

Where do I sent my pre-order check?
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 13, 2010, 03:44:34 PM
Where do I sent my pre-order check?

Thank you, but we are a long way from that.  I do my development during the slow summer months when it is too hot here to do much outside.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Noam on October 13, 2010, 04:06:29 PM
When are YOU going to build a replacement for the CM15A...

I'm afraid that will never happen.  ...
Jeff

I'm sorry to hear that, but I really was only kidding.

Since that unit is long discontinued, and is becoming difficult to find, I may be offering an alternative for that market in the future.

Jeff

What about a "hybrid" type unit, one that combines the best of both worlds. The stability of the CM11A, but with USB support (maybe BOTH USB and Serial - perhaps Ethernet, too?) and RF? It is getting hard to find PCs with a serial port these days, and for many people it is easier to connect over CAT5, especially if there is a good distance between the PC and the controller.

I'll keep an eye out for future updates from you on the subject....
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Knightrider on October 13, 2010, 06:14:40 PM
Noam hit the nail on the head.  I've been considering asking for a unit that works on cat5 myself.  Maybe even a repeater that outputs on cat 5 to link buildings on different transformers.

Alas, the market would be small, and I'm still waiting for the last project shelved by JVDE due to the lack of interest.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 13, 2010, 10:51:48 PM
What about a "hybrid" type unit, one that combines the best of both worlds. The stability of the CM11A, but with USB support (maybe BOTH USB and Serial - perhaps Ethernet, too?) and RF? It is getting hard to find PCs with a serial port these days, and for many people it is easier to connect over CAT5, especially if there is a good distance between the PC and the controller.

I started looking at supporting the CM11A "real time" protocol because a number of my customers are running high-end automation software on their PC, but still use the CM11A as their powerline interface.  There have also been people looking for a standard serial interface rather than the proprietary TW523 interface.  I have been thinking about one unit to address both of these issues.

Microchip has released a new chip that provides all the resources I now use, but also includes an asynchronous serial port.  That provides the pathway to this new product.

I am not interested in breaking new ground, only offering better ways of supporting what is already out there.  So, USB is not in the cards – at least not in the foreseeable future.  And, WGL already has the RF solution.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 13, 2010, 11:06:20 PM
I've been considering asking for a unit that works on cat5 myself.  Maybe even a repeater that outputs on cat 5 to link buildings on different transformers.

The TW523 protocol is best run through flat telephone cable.  However, it is also possible to use CAT5 if you dedicate a twisted pair to each of the 4 signals.  The reason is to keep the distributed capacitance down.

I had looked at the possibility of interconnecting two XTB-IIRs like can be done with the ACT CR234.  The digital ports of two or more units can be wired together to transfer the commands between them.  While the firmware will do the job as it is now, the second unit would only transmit the repeated half of each doublet.  Should there be demand for such a product, it is certainly possible to modify the firmware for more optimal use in a large interconnected installation.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Noam on October 14, 2010, 09:41:52 AM
The CM15A was introduced back in 2004. Other than perhaps some minor firmware changes along the way (none ever confirmed), X10 hasn't changed the product at all in that time, and I haven't seen any indication of plans to introduce a fancier replacement for it any time soon.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: JeffVolp on October 14, 2010, 10:31:14 AM
The CM15A was introduced back in 2004.

Yes, that is one of the reasons why I bought the Ocelot back in 03.  I had been using a beta CM14A, but that was never released.  I would have opted for the CM15A if it had been available when we built this house.

The last time I checked, some of the PC-based automation systems were still not supporting the CM15A because X10 had only released limited information on that unit.  I believe they all support the CM11A.

Jeff
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: Brian H on October 14, 2010, 11:21:03 AM
Yes there where some firmware changes. One I found was how RF signals from a HR12A Palm Pad where handled.
My earliest is P10792E. Date Code:04J41
P10792F Date Code:044J44

Latest I have P10792M. Date Codes: 05C10; 05D18 and 08B09
Same basic programmed part number. Just a different suffix.
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: dave w on October 14, 2010, 06:18:12 PM
The last time I checked, some of the PC-based automation systems were still not supporting the CM15A because X10 had only released limited information on that unit.  I believe they all support the CM11A.
FWIW I know "Homeseer2" for PC, and "Xtensions" for the MAC both support CM15A (neither supports downloading to the CM15A).
Title: Re: CM15A triggers timers earlier & earlier each day
Post by: pconroy on October 14, 2010, 07:12:15 PM
The last time I checked, some of the PC-based automation systems were still not supporting the CM15A because X10 had only released limited information on that unit.  I believe they all support the CM11A.
FWIW I know "Homeseer2" for PC, and "Xtensions" for the MAC both support CM15A (neither supports downloading to the CM15A).

that reminds me to check their blog and see if they've responded to my SDK question.
...

<time passes>

...

Nope.