X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: kamiller42 on January 14, 2011, 04:47:00 PM
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I have a receiver driving two subwoofers in the room. They are plugged into the wall away from the receiver. I would like the power to the subwoofers controlled by the receiver. When the receiver goes on, an x10 power outlet would turn on. When the receiver goes off, the outlet goes off.
Two X10 PAO11 outlets seems perfect for the subs. The challenge is triggering on and offs via the powered state of the receiver.
The PSC01 looks like a good choice to plug into the one switched outlet on the receiver, but it outputs 120V. Input voltage on the PSC01 is 0-18V.
Is the PSC01 the device I should be looking at? If not, which? If so, how should I make the connection between receiver and PSC01? Some of my other crazier ideas are going inline on the woofer pre-out or using the RS232 port on the back. It's an Onkyo TX-SR875. RS232 isn't bad idea if I had pin out.
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The PSC01 looks like a good choice to plug into the one switched outlet on the receiver, but it outputs 120V. Input voltage on the PSC01 is 0-18V.
How about a long extension cord from the recevers switched outlet? rofl
An alternative is to use a 120V AC coil relay fed from the receivers switched outlet with the N.O. contacts coupled to the PSC01.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS//1.html
or if like me, you like little LED's everywhere here is relay with built-in pilot light.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/4PRLY-120L/120-VAC-4PDT-KH-RELAY-W/LED//1.html
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I've used both a tricklesaver (http://www.smarthome.com/9782/TV-TrickleSaver-Energy-Saver/p.aspx) and a tricklesaver-like device. The power of the control device [when turned on] turns On the other/slave device plugged into the tricklesaver.
I use one such device to simply make sure the monitor and printer is turned off on the wife's computer when she turns the PC off.
Another one I used as part of an occupancy setup (http://davesdomainonline.com/os/sensing.htm). With the "other or slave" device being an old wall-wart which controlled a powerflash module (http://www.x10.com/security/pf284_s.html). I used the powerflash module (http://www.x10.com/security/pf284_s.html) in combination with macros and a Automated Chair (http://www.thisautomatedhouse.com/AutomatedChair.html) to control the TV.
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a beleive a macro on an nstinct remote would do this...
setup your receiver on/off then add a key to the macro which would send an x10 signal to a TM751 transceiver and then to an appliance module plugged into your woofers.
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The PSC01 looks like a good choice to plug into the one switched outlet on the receiver, but it outputs 120V. Input voltage on the PSC01 is 0-18V.
How about a long extension cord from the recevers switched outlet? rofl
Hey, you laugh, but.... :) I had a guy run speaker wire from the front of the room to the side half way down the wall. He was able to carefully pull the curved baseboard off, slide the cable between wall and floor, and put baseboard back. We would have ran power too, but there was no room.
The relay is interesting. I have soldering skills, but I have not used a relay before. The two terminals in the same direction are where the A/C wires attach and the other terminals are the relays, the low voltage side? The one says DPDT but has 6 terminals. I thought it would be 4, 2 for each throw.
The trickle saver is a good idea, but seems to require a power cord between the receiver and woofer. Back to the extension cord idea. The only thing between the two right now other than an audio cable is the A/C cable in the wall. Plus, not sure how well things will run running a high power receiver, and 2 large subs through a single outlet.
I had the nstinct's predecessor. Nice remote. I didn't use it much because I used the system to watch movies on a PS3. The PS3 does not have IR and is controlled via bluetooth. There are IR adapters for it, but you can't power it on via IR plugged into USB. So, I end up going to the front of the room to power the PS3 on and the receiver manually since it's right there. Very rarely do I power the receiver on via a remote. You do have me thinking about this though... hmm, maybe controlling the outlets with a SS13A switch. The only down side is the fact the subwoofers on/off correlate directly with the on/off of the receiver, no matter how it's powered, remote or not. A separate switch is one more thing to push.
Just to finish a story, I gave the remote to my parents to consolidate remotes. They love it. One remote to rule them all.
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I have a PS3 also for blu ray, and the DVR has a UHF remote...so alas there are still 5 remotes sitting on the coffee table :-[
Don't get SS13a's they are garbage...
I use Leviton 16400's myself...
my parents hated the remote...they think it has too many buttons and dont feel like wrestling with it.... so back in the box it went
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The relay is interesting. I have soldering skills, but I have not used a relay before. The two terminals in the same direction are where the A/C wires attach and the other terminals are the relays, the low voltage side? The one says DPDT but has 6 terminals. I thought it would be 4, 2 for each throw.
I PM'ed you with drawing for this.
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The Powerflash will active on voltage to a speaker.
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I have a PS3 also for blu ray, and the DVR has a UHF remote...so alas there are still 5 remotes sitting on the coffee table :-[
Don't get SS13a's they are garbage...
I use Leviton 16400's myself...
my parents hated the remote...they think it has too many buttons and dont feel like wrestling with it.... so back in the box it went
My parents' PS3 has an IR receiver. I trained the IconRemote all of the signals. You still can't control power though. :( For my parents, that's fine. The remote is actually less complicated than the remote the cable company gave them with their DVR. It has fewer buttons. In fact, there's no page up and down for the guide, so we mapped two others for page up and down.
I received a couple of SS13a's as part of an X10 package special. I just tried it a couple of times. Seems to do the job but the range isn't too good. I will have to have a transceiver nearby.
@Dave, thanks a bunch. If relay is the way, we will be in touch.
@KnightRider, thanks. The Powerflash was one of my initial considerations. Can you go in detail on how you would use this with a speaker?
I see it says it activates on an audio signal, but they must be talking about a pre-out jack or lower power headphone jack. Right? You wouldn't run this in-line with speaker wire, would you? Too much power. I would like to find a spare audio out signal to use with it because I don't want it interfering with the fidelity of the main speakers.
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Another neat idea but would require me using an extension cord. Not going to happen. Now if this could send an X10 commands while sensing on and off, that would be great!
http://www.belkin.com/conserve/smartav/
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Doing some research on the receiver, I found the pre-out is 1VDC. The Powerflash needs 6-18VDC. Hmm...
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I can't speak for you specific receiver, but most of the pre-out's I've encountered range between .72 and 1.5 volts. It may be possible to take an extra pre-amp output and send it to a cheap amp (think $5 ramsey kit, or cheap headphone amp) and send that into the powerflash.
Granted, I've never actually done this, but according to the specifications provided with the powerflash (which I always take with a grain of salt) it can be done.
I may swing some time this week end to try this, if you're willing to help (providing some details). If you think this is a viable solution, post back and I'll try to set up something.
I use a 1500 watt hybrid amp for my surround 7.1 and a 200 watt junker for my subs. (I bet I never crank more than 40 watts on the mains and 100 on the subs). The 1500 was just what I had at the time, and it will take any varying load from 16 Ohms down to 2, even lower.
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Doing some research on the receiver, I found the pre-out is 1VDC. The Powerflash needs 6-18VDC. Hmm...
Boys, I was just thinking about my idea of driving the Powerflash with audio. It might not be a very good suggestion. The sub woofers will probably click off with every period of silence between songs or in dialog. You would need AHP / CM15A control to insert a turn-off delay macro, or use the receiver switched power.
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Dave,
It would depend on how clean the audio is, what levels were driving it, and which output you used. I was thinking about driving it with the high end output. Unless it's very clean, there should be some constant output regardless if it's audible.
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Knightrider, thank you for the offer. I don't have the parts yet. I wanted to make sure I was going down the right path. I will get them ordered this weekend.
I spent too much time today looking for a motion sensing switch that is compatible with CFL's. I went to 6 stores, 2 of them twice, trying to find the. It was the 6th store which had a compatible switches, but a) they were pricey, b) they had a short 5 minute fixed delay. I want configurable delay.
Now, I am having a problem getting a LM465 to respond with CM15A but responds with TM751. Going to post in troubleshooting...
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Miller:
I have the parts to mirror your project here. Can you give details on the amplifier and other gear?
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This forum is gold. I think I have solved my problem after doing a little searching. I setup the TM751 as a relay by having CM15A send RF command. Very good article... http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Setting_The_CM15A_to_send_RF_Commands
Back to the receiver situation...
I am going to buy the following:
2 SR227 Outlets
1 PF284
My receiver is an Onkyo TX-SR875. Here's the manual with all its connections laid out...
http://63.148.251.135/redirect_service.cfm?type=own_manuals&file=TX-SR805_875_B_En.pdf
One sub will be attached to each SR227. I have 2 Rocket UFW-12 subs.
Is there anything else I should be purchasing?
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Let's keep our fingers crossed that the X10 PLC will be reliable in reaching the 227's. Other than that, I see no issues.
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Gee, I'm addressing almost the same issue here (a different Onkyo model). Right now I'm just using a little 2-button keychain remote and a TW751, but I plan to replace the room dimmer switch with a Leviton 2-way model that transmits when it is turned on or off locally. So, when I turn on the lights, the Onkyo equipment will be powered up too. And vice versa.
Jeff
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I discovered X10 when I build my Home Theater (http://www.davesdomainonline.com/ht/ht). I wanted a little wow factor... and I thought dimming the lights might do it.
I used a Harmony-Logtech remote and an X10 Infrared Mini Controller (IR543) (http://www.x10.com/automation/x10_ir543.htm). But there are a bunch of ways to set this stuff up... its more just choice than anything else.
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Dave,
It would depend on how clean the audio is, what levels were driving it, and which output you used. I was thinking about driving it with the high end output. Unless it's very clean, there should be some constant output regardless if it's audible.
Yeah, it might work then. I have never tried to trigger a PF with audio, but just thought any quiet period might make the PF send an OFF.
"kamiller" if you experiment with audio triggering a PF tell us of your findings and outcome.
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Well, the parts are on order. I won't be able to start this weekend, but probably the weekend after.
KnightRider, I don't think there should be a problem with the 227's receiving signal. They are all on the same electrical circuit. I can check using a TM751 in the receive AC socket and a LM465 in the sub socket. The LM465 should respond.
Which audio signal were you thinking we could monitor?
Dave, I am also curious to see how the PF responds to different audio levels. Turns off when silent, fries when too high?
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Dave, I am also curious to see how the PF responds to different audio levels. Turns off when silent, fries when too high?
I think it WILL turn off when silent, as in between songs. Knight thinks it might stay ON depending on the signal input. I doubt "pre-amp" or "Line Out" level will be high enough to get the PF to send an ON. Only testing will tell. I think max input to PF is 18V AC (or DC) for a steady voltage. Audio, as in speaker output direct from amp, might be higher since it is not steady state. But I wouldn't push it too much. You will probably have to "WAG" the voltage the PF might see if you drive it with speaker output. For example 100 watts into an 8 ohm speaker will be nearly 30V of drive to the speaker but that would not be continous.
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Having spent a fair amount of time designing audio equipment years ago (1/2KW RMS back in the 70's), I found that speaker voltages are usually quite low. The only time it gets up into the 10Vpp+ range is when you start pumping out some real power, such as music with heavy bass. It may be difficult to trigger anything automatically from just the speaker output.
The Onkyo subwoofer is supposed to power down when it is not receiving a signal from the receiver. However, in the power-down mode, it still seems to consume almost 10W.
Jeff
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Having spent a fair amount of time designing audio equipment years ago (1/2KW RMS back in the 70's), I found that speaker voltages are usually quite low. The only time it gets up into the 10Vpp+ range is when you start pumping out some real power, such as music with heavy bass. It may be difficult to trigger anything automatically from just the speaker output.
The Onkyo subwoofer is supposed to power down when it is not receiving a signal from the receiver. However, in the power-down mode, it still seems to consume almost 10W.
Interesting. I never measured the volts and amps on a speaker wire or a sub pre-out. So I guess when it comes to high power speakers, it mostly about pushing amps.
My Rocket subs when sleeping are the same when it comes to power consumption. It's between 10 and 15 watts, and I have 2.
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One sub will be attached to each SR227. I have 2 Rocket UFW-12 subs.
Wow, those are REALLY nice subwoofers, but they cost almost 10X what the Onkyo cost.
The Onkyo does a pretty good job. At least it doesn't make the obnoxious sounds the Panasonic did when pushed a little too hard. I'd like to add a second - maybe that will be my payback after I assemble another hundred XTB-IIRs...
Jeff
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Yes, they are pretty nice. Too nice for what the owner charged for them. He charged too little and that left him cash strapped, so he made a couple of bad moves which caused the company to close the doors and him in jail. Oops. Shame because the company was able to hire some really good speaker designers. Sadly, some were never fully compensated.
Was my understanding of speaker signals on the wire correct on voltage and amps?
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Was my understanding of speaker signals on the wire correct on voltage and amps?
It is all about decibels. It takes relatively little power for normal listening levels. But it takes a lot of power (voltage and current) to move the volume of air necessary for thunderous bass.
Voltage and current are relative to the impedance of the speakers. My quad amplfier (from the 70's) does 10A peak into 4 ohms, or 40V peak, 80Vpp. But, that is at max volume level just before clipping. In a home theater, that would be the loudest explosions or low-frequency special effects on a DVD.
Jeff
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I think we're over thinking on this problem. A friend of mine said something that made say "Duh!" He suggested using an old low power power supply on the outlet at the back of the receiver. Cut the head off and attach to PSC01. Power goes on, power supply goes on, PSC01 sends its command, and all done.
I have an old 6V, 300ma supply I think I will try using with the PSC01.
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Sure, if you have a switched outlet, that is an easy way to go. My Onkyo RC160 doesn't, so that's why I plan to use the room light dimmer to send a command to turn the equipment on.
Jeff
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Cut the head off and attach to PSC01. Power goes on, power supply goes on, PSC01 sends its command, and all done.
This is a cleaner solution than my 120V relay suggestion, since you don't have to worry about insulating the coil contacts of the relay. Next time we will require a complete inventory of your electrical junk box. rofl
This should work well!
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I thought I would give you guys an update on this. It is working. The PAO11 was a poor choice because it's not what I thought it would. I thought each socket would get its own circuit like a regular wall outlet. Instead, this device is nothing but a 2 socket power strip with a built-in PAM02. So, I went with 2 PAM02's being controlled by the PSC01. I attached a low power power supply to the PSC01. The power supply is controlled by the switched outlet on the back of the receiver.
It's almost perfect. Where it's not perfect is in its timing during power up. The outlets trigger immediately when the receiver is powered on and delayed when the receiver is powering off. Technically, the power up should be delayed and the power off should be immediate due to possible signal spikes during receiver power on and off. The receiver or the sub seem to handle it well. I have not noticed any spiking. So, this will work just fine.
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Is the wall wart DC?
If so the power supply has to discharge enough for the PSC01 to send the Off signal.
You could use a low voltage wall wart type supply that outputs AC. The Off delay would be much less but it would do nothing to add some on delay.
I will see if I can find any premade timer boards that can be used for a delayed On and fast Off. That can be used to trigger the PSC01 in dry contact mode.
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Is the wall wart DC?
If so the power supply has to discharge enough for the PSC01 to send the Off signal.
You could use a low voltage wall wart type supply that outputs AC. The Off delay would be much less but it would do nothing to add some on delay.
I will see if I can find any premade timer boards that can be used for a delayed On and fast Off. That can be used to trigger the PSC01 in dry contact mode.
Yup. It's DC. I didn't know you could get one that outputs AC. I had this one laying around the house, and it does work. It's just not a CE grade solution. An audio CE manufacturer would implement the way I described.
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Insteon SynchroLinc maybe
http://www.smarthome.com/2423A5/SynchroLinc-Power-Synching-INSTEON-Controller/p.aspx
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SyncroLinc does not have an option for an X10 address to be added.
Should control Insteon modules linked to it.
I may break down and buy one to try along with an iMeterSolo power use recording module.
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X10 is not needed in this situation, use a synchrolinc on the receiver and an insteon appliance module on the woofers