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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => User Modified Devices => Topic started by: bkenobi on March 29, 2011, 01:05:52 PM

Title: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 29, 2011, 01:05:52 PM
Yup, another thread about the MS16A...sorta.

I have a few MS16A ActiveEye motion sensors that I've been playing with for a few months now.  The unit transmits far enough now that I have a modded CM15A antenna, but the issue is detection.  I find that for my purpose, it has too short a detection range, too narrow a field of view, does not detect fast enough (or at least send a signal quick enough), etc.  Otherwise, it works brilliantly!   B:(

I've seen a few threads about the Heath Zenith sensors and the glowing reviews related to them.  What I haven't seen is a "guide" or detailed descriptions or pictures of a modified unit to work with X10.  I'm looking to use this for my driveway to trigger both lights and a chime.  I know I could simply use the unit as is and leave it out of the X10 setup, but I was wondering if anyone has taken the steps to mod it with either DS10A or PowerFlash since I assume the unit does not send X10 RF signals.  I figure it's not too difficult, but if someone has done this already, it would be worth a review!

Oh, and FWIW, I'm looking at the SL-6032 right now although I know the SL-6030 is what most people have looked at in the past.  The primary difference is the wider angle of view (240 versus 180).
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on March 29, 2011, 01:18:39 PM
$0.02
I'm probably not giving any new information but how do you have your MS16s oriented? Any PIR motion detector is most sensitive to a warm body moving across the field of vision. Least sensitive to movement directly towards or away from the detector.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 29, 2011, 01:54:30 PM
Yeah, I'm aware of that.  I don't have a lot of choice of where to place it if I'm going to detect motion in the driveway though.  The thing is, I'd like this to be able to do 2 things that may not work out well together. 

1) As you can see in the picture, the garage faces west.  When someone drives in, I'd like the lights to turn on if it's dark.  Currently, the lights turn on about the time that the driver passes the garage door which is obviously a bit late to help see the front of the house.  This would work though if someone parked in front of the garage.  I have the MS16A mounted ~7ft off the ground (just above the door) mostly centered on the garage.  I find that it works ok for stall 2, but it doesn't always work for stall 1.  I don't know about stall 3 as I've never used it (only have 2 cars).  It seems like a longer detection range might help turn the lights on quicker even with a delay were present.  Those Zenith units claim 70 or 100ft (can't remember which ATM).

2) The house has no light switches for the entry lights anywhere but by the front door.  If I walk around the south end of the house, I'd like the driveway and entry lighting (same thing) to turn on for me.  The motion sensor works pretty well if I walk out in the driveway, but I'm not doing that if it's raining.  I know this one is a tough request since the motion is all the way at the edge of the detection zone at best.  The detector only sees 90 which is why I'm looking at the Zenith units (180 and 240).

It's possible I can't get both of these done with a single sensor, but I'd certainly like to try as it makes everything that much easier (and the WAF easier to attain without 2 sensors being visible).
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on March 29, 2011, 03:02:27 PM
I see. That is a toughie. What about a wireless driveway detector mounted at the mouth of the driveway, interfaced through PowerFlash, with some conditionals to prevent lights coming on when leaving.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: Knightrider on March 29, 2011, 05:41:16 PM
Don't know about the wireless end of things, but I purchase el cheapo heath units for about $6,  stip off the lights and hardwire in a rat shack 120v relay.  Relay provides contact for a powerflash.  I have several of these around the yard closing contacts on an underground telco cable (don't ask how I aquired this) and a bank of powerflashes out in my garage.

I really should post some pics.

It may be a pain to run wires for power and closure, but I seldom have any false activations and have get to change a single battery.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 29, 2011, 05:45:04 PM
You mean something like the ones that have buried tubes?

Perhaps one other option, though.  I have a nice antenna installed on my CM15A that, during testing prior to final installation, was able to reach the road easily.  When I put it in the attic though, it lost some range (probably due to the number of low quality couplings + the type of wire used).  Either way, I think I could probably put a motion sensor in the center of the turn around facing the SE so that it could see the entrance of the driveway and the garage in a 90 swath.  The only problem is detection range potentially.  If I could get long enough range so that the motion sensor could see the garage and most of the way to the driveway entrance, I could have a nice solution.

At some point, I'm planning on installing some kind of wireless motion sensor on the south side of the building too so that when I walk the dogs the lights on that side of the house will light my way.  If I can figure this out (probably with the Zenith), then I'll probably do the same thing there.  I'm thinking I could probably just use either a power flash or a hacked door sensor installed in an electrical box in the garage send signals to the CM15A.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 29, 2011, 05:47:13 PM
Don't know about the wireless end of things, but I purchase el cheapo heath units for about $6,  stip off the lights and hardwire in a rat shack 120v relay.  Relay provides contact for a powerflash.  I have several of these around the yard closing contacts on an underground telco cable (don't ask how I aquired this) and a bank of powerflashes out in my garage.

I really should post some pics.

It may be a pain to run wires for power and closure, but I seldom have any false activations and have get to change a single battery.
I'd love to see any pictures of what you did.  Have a model number on the motion sensor?  I saw several wired motion sensors at Lowes this morning (Zenith units) that are designed to be added on to an existing fixture.  I was contemplating how hard it would be to use one of those.  The primary issue of course is that I don't have a box to install it on, so running wires is an issue...especially since I don't know the best location to install things.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 30, 2011, 04:19:59 PM
I stopped by Lowes last night to see what they had that I could try out.  They carry a good selection of Heath Zenith wireless motion sensor packages, so I was able to pick up the lamp/chime module with motion sensor.  The range is much better than the MS16A (as expected), but I'm not sure how I would rate the field of view.  They claim 180, but I'd say it's more like 135 or so.  I can see the lens at the sides, but it doesn't detect motion in any direction until I'm further to the front.  They make a better looking model that claims 240 FOV, so maybe that one will work to ~180.  That one is only available online in my local, so I'm going to have to be sure the setup will work prior to ordering.

The problem I'm having with it is that it doesn't seem consistent.  If anyone else has one of these units set up, I'd like to know what I'm doing wrong.

I started by trying the default dip settings, but that didn't seem to connect.  I switched to a different setting and the two units connected.  I set the sensor to max range, day/night, and Test mode.  This config seems to turn the light on and chime once.  It then waits for motion to stop and turns the light off.  The minimum lit time seems to be ~10 seconds.  Fine...so I took it to the garage and drove the truck past it...nothing.  The MS16A kicked on the outdoor lights so I know it should work, but nothing.  I got out of the truck and walked up to it and it turned the light on.  Hmmm.  Problem is, it seems to get confused and sense motion continuously without motion occurring.  The remedy is a reset of both units.

For testing I have no problem with a reset or two.  I cannot accept ever being required to reset the unit other than to change batteries.  If that were required, I'd look for a different unit.  So, I'm not sure where to go from here.  Maybe I just got a dud?
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 31, 2011, 11:09:23 AM
I just spoke to Heath-Zenith this morning about the difference between the SL-6030-WH and the SL-6032-WH.  The specs indicate the primary difference is that the 6032 has a wider FOV (240 versus 180) and it has a longer detection range (100ft versus 70ft).  They confirmed that those are the primary differences, so I'm looking at the 6032 now.  The problem is that I can't find anywhere that sells a 6032 with a receiver unit of any kind.  Perhaps this is a bit cheapskate of me, but I don't want to spend another $20+ for a receiver that I won't really be using correctly (hacking it to work with a PF or DS10A).

BUT, this led me to a thought about using this thing in a different way.  Since I really don't want to use the motion sensor for it's transmitter exactly anyway, couldn't I open the sensor up and hack in a DS10A directly?  It's not a perfect solution since this probably would keep the sensor from being quite as water resistant and definitely increases the size, but it eliminates working with a part that may prove to be an issue anyway.  I was having issues with the sensor and receiver communicating anyway, so this could actually help a lot.

There is an LED that flashes any time the sensor sees motion.  Could I just install a transistor across that line to switch the DS10A?  I'm not familiar with DS10A mods, so I'm just guessing here.  I know I could use the PF, but that requires wiring things into power.  If I do that, then I might as well use a hard wired motion sensor which are readily available at my local Lowes.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 31, 2011, 11:43:35 PM
Well, I played around with the DS10A this evening and am left...ambiguous.  The sensor does work and it does pretty much what I want, however the range is...well...lacking.  I think I can use this arrangement in front of the garage, but certainly not in any other location (that's the next step I haven't talked about yet).  The other issue is the speed at which the DS10A sends a signal.  It seems like it takes a little long for AHP to see the change.

I'm starting to think that a powerflash + a wired motion sensor might provide the best results.  Heath Zenith makes a wired unit that has 270 deg FOV with 100ft detection range.  It looks like that unit needs 120VAC and switches on a second line when motion is sensed.  I suppose I could use the PowerFlash on that switched line.  If that's out of the question voltage-wise, I could always use a relay.  Does the PowerFlash respond quicker than the DS10A?
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: Brian H on April 01, 2011, 06:09:47 AM
Powerflash module can either be triggered by a dry contact closure or applying a low DC or AC voltage of less than 18 volts.

Normally if you trigger it with a voltage or contact closure it sends a signal immediately as far as I can tell. I never timed one.

Dakota Alert makes some nice wireless motion sensors and I believe have a 600 foot transmission range. The receiver can have four channels registered to it and have a relay output for each. For things like a powerflash trigger. Though you are now talking low $100 range on sale and $150 from many places.

http://www.dakotaalert.com/catb2b1/index.php?cPath=47
http://www.smarthome.com/7312/Dakota-Alert-WMA-3000-Wireless-Motion-Alert/p.aspx
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 01, 2011, 11:02:52 AM
That is a nice setup!  I don't see mention of FOV on the motion detector, so I'm assuming it's going to detect ~90-135 based on the cartoon in the manual.  That might work, but I'd have to locate it in the turnaround rather than on the house.  I don't know that that would be an issue or not.  The price is a little steep considering I'd still need the powerflash, but if I can't get anything else to work, I'll definitely keep that setup in my back pocket.  The nice thing would be that I could then use that same receiver for other motion sensors around the house.  Since I'm looking at adding 2-3 more at some point, that's definitely a bonus!

For this weekend, I'm probably going to just use the DS10A and pick up a Heath Zenith SL-5316-BZ.  I think I can add a small electrical box for the connections and a mounting point and then just run the power from my garage door opener outlet.  If so, I've got most everything to give it a try.  I wonder if I can use a transistor instead of a relay somehow?  I'll have to open the unit up to see how it's built to know I suppose!
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 01, 2011, 11:32:33 AM
If I want to connect to the AC switched leg of the motion sensor and have that switch the powerflash, am I correct that the only way to do this is via a relay such as this?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049721

I can't tell if this switches AC or if it can use AC as the input.  Based on the reviews, it looks like it can use AC as the signal, so it should work.  Hopefully I can find something in the motion sensor to switch the PF off of.  I'm thinking the LED light might be sufficient.  Of course, if I use that then I only get notified of motion and not the end of motion...
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on April 01, 2011, 11:59:01 AM
If I want to connect to the AC switched leg of the motion sensor and have that switch the powerflash, am I correct that the only way to do this is via a relay such as this?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049721

I can't tell if this switches AC or if it can use AC as the input.  Based on the reviews, it looks like it can use AC as the signal, so it should work.  Hopefully I can find something in the motion sensor to switch the PF off of.  I'm thinking the LED light might be sufficient.  Of course, if I use that then I only get notified of motion and not the end of motion...
Yes you are correct. Here is one less expensive than Radio Shark
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS//1.html
Both relays use 120V AC for the coil. So the relay coil takes the place of a connected light fixture.  The contacts are completely isolated from that.

So,  I'm confused about your Power Flash statement. You would connect the N.O. contacts of the relay to the Power Flash. The motion sensors LED doesn't even come in to play. Besides, if the motion sensor did not use a transformer power supply, the LED could be "hot" with 120V if measured to neutral or ground.  Besides being dangerous, the Power Flash would not like that.

Motion would supply 120V to the relay coil, closing the N.O. contacts. When the motion sensor would normally cut power to an attached light the relay contacts will open.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 04, 2011, 01:24:34 PM
I missed your answer the other day.  I was about to ask a variant of my question when I saw that you have already provided everything I need to know!  Sounds like I just need to order a PF and that relay.  Thanks!!!   >!
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 04, 2011, 01:31:54 PM
One question.  Their shipping is a bit expensive, so I might as well see if they carry anything else interesting.  Anything else that would be helpful for other projects that's worth picking up?   ;D
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: mike on April 04, 2011, 05:55:35 PM
1 cent thought:

if a ms16 works for stall 1 but not stall 2, why not 2pc ms16?  I use 2 in my barn on the same code to do its thing - to cover 2 areas that one cannot cover.

prob dumb thing to say but just in case u didnt think of it....  dont hit me!
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on April 04, 2011, 06:19:44 PM
One question.  Their shipping is a bit expensive, so I might as well see if they carry anything else interesting.  Anything else that would be helpful for other projects that's worth picking up?   ;D
Mikes extra motion sensors is always a good idea, also I would get a spare PowerFlash...my bet is you will find a use for the "spare" in less than a month.  :D
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 04, 2011, 06:30:59 PM
I've considered using an extra MS16A instead of this DIY version, but the range is a bit of an issue.  I ordered the relay and a PowerFlash this afternoon.  If I don't use them in this instance, it won't hurt my feelings having either of those in the junk drawer!  But, I'm seriously considering just using a couple extra MS16A's in the future.  I think this modified sensor will work, but if not then no great loss.  I'll install it temporarily before the final mounting anyway to make sure placement will work.  Thanks for all the help with this so far!

Oh, one question about multiple sensors on the same code.  I suppose that means that you must only use the "motion sensed" signal and ignore the "motion off" command, right?  How do you avoid one sensor turning off the light if it doesn't see motion when the other one still does?  I guess it must be a phantom module/flag in AHP that keeps this from happening?
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: mike on April 04, 2011, 06:38:07 PM
.....How do you avoid one sensor turning off the light if it doesn't see motion when the other one still does? 

heehee!  I bet if you read your line above again you see the answer :)

(times up:  if not, how about this:  if the one that didn't see the motion to turn on to begin with didn't see it, how will it send an off command? :)

but seriously, there are examples on here about how to take control of the ons and offs to stop the offs when you DO move from one stall to the other....  i recall a particullary good one about 2 sensors in the bathroom to keep the lite on while the better half was in the shower.....
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on April 04, 2011, 08:10:15 PM
How do you avoid one sensor turning off the light if it doesn't see motion when the other one still does?  I guess it must be a phantom module/flag in AHP that keeps this from happening?
Yes, you would need flags with conditionals to prevent MS "A" from turning off the HCUC after the motion leaves it's field of view, when the other MS "B" is still seeing motion.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 05, 2011, 10:51:08 AM
Thanks again.  I found that a couple of the wired motion sensors detects far enough out to see my vehicles come in the driveway as well as see people walking near the house.  Even better, one of them meets the WAF threshold so I can install it!  I much prefer the size and color of the MS units, but since it doesn't function the way I need, it will have to go...to a different project.

I may opt to expand the system in the front at some point to cover a couple small dead zones, but I'm not particularly worried about them since they will be covered by other lighting or are close enough to the switch.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 16, 2011, 09:05:50 PM
My order from All Electronics arrived last weekend and I've been playing with things since.  I figured this would be a quick and easy project, but for some reason that's not the case.  I'm not sure what to do to get things up and running, so I figured I'd ask the users here to get some ideas.

The motion sensor works great when I have it hooked up to a light bulb.  As it's designed, it will turn on the light when it's powered up for a few seconds and then kick it off until it sees motion.  When I attach the relay to the output of the motion sensor (switched 120vac), the relay turns on but never turns off.

So, I tried one more config.  I hooked the relay up in parallel with a light bulb.  Lo and behold, it works!  I figure this is because the relay is a coil (inductive load) and a light bulb is a resistive load.  I suspect the motion sensor expects or perhaps even checks for a resistive load and when not seen, it doesn't send out any voltage.  As a check, I hooked a DMM to the output and to the neutral and it only shows 1-2 volts when it sees motion.

I guess the easiest thing to do is to hook up a lightbulb in the garage as a motion indicator, but I'm really not interested in wasting a bunch of power.  If I understand correctly, I could just use a resistor to simulate the light bulb.  With the equation p=v^2/r, I could use a 240 ohm resistor to simulate a 60 watt bulb.  If I want to use a smaller bulb, I could use a larger resistor (1440ohm for 10w).  But, do I also need a diode and/or any other components to keep things working right?

I think for now I'll try finding the smallest wattage bulb I can and try that.  Maybe I can use a CFL and get things down to 17 watt.  Hmmm...
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 16, 2011, 09:13:22 PM
Maybe I can use a CFL and get things down to 17 watt.  Hmmm...
Well, that was a resounding NOOOOO!!!!!!

The relay bounced and the bulb flashed rapidly.  So, obviously, this motion sensor will NOT work with an inductive type load.  I think I'll just head to the home store and find a small wattage small footprint bulb that I can install in the garage.  If anyone has a way to do this without a bulb, PLEASE make a suggestion.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: Brian H on April 17, 2011, 10:04:28 AM
I suspect the motion sensor has a triac and not a relay in it to switch the lights on and off.
So it is just like you tried to use a relay or CFL and an X10 dimmer module.

Your math is correct for a simulated 60 watt bulb as the resistor would have to be a 60 watt resistor or magic smoke is released.

The small wattage incandescent bulb maybe your best choice.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on April 17, 2011, 10:57:16 AM
The relay bounced and the bulb flashed rapidly.  So, obviously, this motion sensor will NOT work with an inductive type load. 
Does the motion sensor instructions indicate any type of minimum load? Brians thoughts about a triac is probably correct and the inductive relay is causing enough phase shift to prevent the triac from going in to full cut-off. A snubber network across the triac might cure (resister and cap in series from T1 to T2 on the triac). I can't remember typical values and will look it up. But, like Brian suggested a small incandescent load might be enough of a "quench" get the triac to cut-off. Try a night light.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: Knightrider on April 17, 2011, 11:04:49 AM
What's the brand on the motion sensor?
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 17, 2011, 02:53:34 PM
Heath Zenith model SL-5316.  I also tried SL-5716 which appears to be a newer model based on the internals.

http://www.amazon.com/Heathco-SL-5316-BZ-Deluxe-Replacement-Motion/dp/B000OI387U
http://www.amazon.com/Heath-Zenith-SL-5716-WH-270-Degree-Replacement/dp/B001DU0HKO

My wife prefers the bronze color, so I'm planning on using that one.  I went to Home Depot this morning and found a standard A style bulb in 7.5 watt.  I will install it for now, but I'd really rather have a solid state device that won't burn out (thus breaking the motion sensor).

I was reading on an auto forum where someone wanted to use a relay in place of a turn signal flashing bulb (no idea why).  He used the equation I posted before to determine that he needed a 4.11 ohm resistor for his 35 watt bulb on a 12 volt system.  That was a DC system, so he also had to install a relay across the power and ground sides.  Additionally, he had to deal with the inductive load of the coil, but I really didn't understand that part.  However, that was on a DC system where power only flows 1 way.  In my case, I'm using AC across the coil, so I shouldn't need to worry about a diode to allow the current to bleed back to ground since ground switches between the legs at 60Hz.  Anyone have any thoughts?  This is really well beyond my freshman/sophomore level EE classes I took many years ago.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: Brian H on April 17, 2011, 03:13:54 PM
I found the SL5316 manual on the Heath Zenith site.
I am sure it uses a Triac for light control.
Manual says Incadescent only.
No Fluorescent Type bulbs.
Also has a Dual Brite function. Where the light can be first turned on at 50% for a few settable times.
Also indicated that it has a photocell and only goes on at night.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: Knightrider on April 17, 2011, 03:25:29 PM
the dual brite thing explains the triac.  these are a little fancier than what I've used, and I'm thinking that when the unit goes back to 50% you'd have a hard time getting the relay to release.   I still haven't got around to getting a ladder to see what kind I use, but they are Heath, and do "click" when they activate.  I'm also very sure that I never paid more than $5 for any unit.

Doubt that any of that helps, but thought I'd throw it in.

PS.  I also use these to control washing machine pumps and a vast array of solenoids harvested from washing machines, ice makers and dishwashers at halloween.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on April 17, 2011, 06:40:23 PM
PS.  I also use these to control washing machine pumps and a vast array of solenoids harvested from washing machines, ice makers and dishwashers at halloween.
I am definitely going to have to drive east this October. Your house must do nothing but hum, buzz, and click come mid October.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 17, 2011, 09:11:39 PM
The dual brite feature is a bit of a downside to these in that you are paying for a feature that can't be used.  In this case, they did include a switch to disable it entirely, so that's where it's set.  I would much prefer a cheapo motion sensor that had a relay built in, but I couldn't find one locally to test and I didn't want to buy countless units online unless I knew there was a shot of them working.

As it stands now, I've wired this unit in with a new external box and a conduit, so I'd prefer to stick with it.  I'm not entirely happy with how things are since I'm getting a series of random chimes from my SC546.  I can't tell yet if it's a logic problem with my macros (probably) or if it's an issue with the hardware (I doubt it due to the amount of testing did prior to installing things.  For now, I may have to disable the macros to keep my wife from blowing a gasket.   rofl

Maybe the sun and clouds are causing issues as they move around.  If so, I guess a sensitivity adjustment would be in order.  Not sure yet...

On the up side, I'm really happy with the way the installation looks!  But, I'd probably have been better off just using my compound miter saw to cut a block for mounting 2 ActiveEye sensors in a single location and a third out near the entrance to the driveway.  It would have been more work with the software though, so who knows.  Is this the "fun" part of home automation?   >!
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: Knightrider on April 17, 2011, 09:23:51 PM

I am definitely going to have to drive east this October. Your house must do nothing but hum, buzz, and click come mid October.

Well, it's not exactly my house.  I left the big town for the sticks about 15 years ago.  An old friend of mine actually pays me to decorate his place.  (I get payed to play!)  I've posted the pipe organ of fire, but not sure about any of the other stuff that Knightmares has cooked up over the years.  Dad was kind of a nut when it came to that stuff, and I picked it up about 1986.  Incidentally, he won a state award for designing a JayCee's haunted house about 30 years before I won mine.  I met my wife in that haunted house.  Tried to quit at 20 years, but too many people keep requesting to see what we cook up next, and it's kind of a tribute to my father.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: Knightrider on April 17, 2011, 09:25:41 PM

.  Is this the "fun" part of home automation?  


Yep.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 18, 2011, 11:08:57 AM
Is there an easy way to disable a macro?  I can't seem to find one, so I ended up backing up my setup and deleting the motion sensor related macros until I get a chance to figure out what's going on.  I guess I could have switched the PF to a different H/U code, but I didn't think of that quick enough.  Anyway, thoughts?
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on April 18, 2011, 01:57:21 PM
Is there an easy way to disable a macro? 
Change the trigger to an unused HCUC(?).
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 18, 2011, 03:34:23 PM
I hadn't thought of that, but it would work.  I guess I was hoping that there might be a simple check box I wasn't seeing.  Better than deleting the whole thing!

Ok, so I think I'm starting to get my head wrapped around how to rewrite the macros to get things to work, but I have a question about delays that I'm not sure about.  The way I had things working (which was pretty nice) was that the motion would turn on lights and turn them off after 16 minutes of no motion.  It would also chime every time new motion was detected (no more often than 1/minute).  The reason this would work is I leveraged the MS16A's continued sending of the ON code whenever it saw motion and only sending the OFF code when the timer ran out.  This new motion sensor turns on when motion is detected and off after no motion for a selectable period (test =~5 seconds, 1 min, 5 min, 20 min).

What I want to do is have the chime work if motion is detected even if the sensor is already on.  I know this a bit difficult when it doesn't have a way to send this info, but I think I can get the info even without the code being sent...maybe.  Here's what I'm thinking:  If motion detected in test mode, the motion sensor will trigger on and turn off after 5 seconds.  If motion is still going after 5 seconds, it will remain on.  So, if use that info, I know that if there is no OFF code sent after the delay I'm expecting, there is still motion outside, so I could simply trigger a chime if the motion sensor is still on after 1 minute since it should have turned off by then (55 seconds earlier).  This would be an issue if I used the 20 minutes since 1 minute of initial motion would result in a 21 minute motion on time and chiming at 20 minutes would be 19 minutes too late.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if there's a slicker way I'm overlooking.


ALSO, I want to have 2 timers going at once...I think.  I want to have a timer that keeps the light on for say 15 minutes after motion stops as well as one that chimes every 1-5 minutes of motion (I haven't decided on a time yet).  So, say the motion sensor is on for 3 minutes and then turns off.  I want the lights to stay on for a total of 18 minutes and the chime to have gone off at least initially and maybe additional times depending on the second timer.  I'm not seeing an easy way to do 2 timers currently, which is why I'm asking...
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on April 18, 2011, 04:29:38 PM
FWIW
I should not continually tout Homeseer on the X10 forum, but X10 does have a Homeseer discussion tab on this forum, so.....
Macros in Homeseer can be easily inhibited by a check box. It has no problems with timers, or soft start modules, or conditional logic, or (etc. etc. etc).

The only problem is comparing Homeseer to AHP is like comparing a Cadillac CTX to a Ford Focus. Focus is a great car. Gets you from A to B inexpensively. Cadillac is bigger, more powerful, more luxurious, does everything the Focus does, times 10...and (alas) is more expensive.  Homeseer has a 30 day trial and can use the CM15A as powerline interface. 
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 18, 2011, 05:03:46 PM
I've looked at HomeSeer in the past, but thought that it would be better to use AHP since you can't upload your control logic to the CM15A.  I guess it's not really an issue since I have my HA computer on all the time anyway (it's also my file server).  Do you think the desired capabilities I've stated would be easily doable in HS?  I really love to hate AHP and would not have an issue abandoning it!  I just don't want to spend more money on another dog of a program.

Probably worth the trial anyway.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 18, 2011, 05:29:25 PM
WOW, I didn't realize that it cost $600 for HSPro!  I suppose I could get HS2, but that's still over $200.  On the up side, it has better logic control and a built in web server (something I've been looking into as well).

On the other hand, you have to buy any add-on you want.  Course that's the same as X-10, but the prices are much higher from the looks of it (what you actually pay).

Hmmm.  Have to think harder.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on April 18, 2011, 07:42:41 PM
WOW, I didn't realize that it cost $600 for HSPro!  I suppose I could get HS2, but that's still over $200. 
Stunned silence at this end.
Glazed eyes begin to clear...

Yeah,  I don't know who needs HS Pro. HS Pro is HS with all the HS plug-ins, which is IMHO really dumb marketing since you definately would not use all plug-ins.  What single user would use Lightolier and Lutron and CentraLite plug-ins, etc. I suspect the only users who can really use HS Pro is HS dealers.

HS ain't cheap but it is high quality.

I see so many AHP complaints on the forum that smacks of poorly written software, begging to be cleaned up, and I have lost faith in X10 doing anything about it.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 19, 2011, 01:38:52 AM
Yeah, $200 isn't free, but it's also not out of the question I suppose.  The initial shock of $600 was pretty big.  I didn't look at the features after seeing the price tag.

I must admit that I never wanted to use the X10 software in the first place.  I only went with it after talking to the customer service person during the order process and he claimed that I wouldn't be required to use the stupid graphical programming interface.  I specifically asked if AHP was written like AH or if it was a newly designed software that you could program logically.  Well, I suppose believing what I was told was my own fault and not returning it once I realized I'd been had wasn't any better.  Oh well, my bad.

Once I get this motion sensor hardware straightened out, I may have to look at getting some decent software to go with it.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 19, 2011, 10:24:25 AM
Ahhhh, I may have a resolution to some degree...at least as for why the motion sensor doesn't work reliably.  I found that the motion sensor requires the resistance of a light bulb in order to turn on the switched 120vac leg (actually, it fooled me and cost me my first power flash module, but that's another story  :').  I decided the best bet was to install the smallest wattage light bulb I could find inside the garage and use it as an indicator that motion was sensed.  I found a 7.5 watt bulb and things looked like they worked ok.  As it turns out, that motion sensor requires a minimum of a 40 watt resistive load for things to work correctly.  I'll have to give that a try and see what, if anything, is improved by installing the correct bulb.  I don't know why that's not in the spec for the unit.  Seems simple enough to publish the range of bulbs that work (40-500watt) and don't work (inductive bulbs like CFL and LED).
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: dave w on April 19, 2011, 10:49:16 AM
Definately using a triac for control. Could you use the small bulb in one of these: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=socket+outlet+adaptor&cp=21&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&wrapid=tljp1303224215688040&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=16629121678499543774&sa=X&ei=p5-tTcivOfOC0QGCitG9Cw&sqi=2&ved=0CEsQ8wIwBA#
and plug a 120V AC coil relay into the outlet for your Power Flash?
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 19, 2011, 11:15:30 AM
I have a little more complex setup than that socket adapter, but it works basically the same way.  I just need to put a bigger bulb in I think.  I might install a pull chain on the side of the outlet box where the power flash and bulb are located (and the power for the motion sensor is routed through) so I can reset the whole thing if it turns out it needs fixing from time to time.  I currently can reset by going to the basement and toggling the garage outlet at the breaker, but I'd rather not do that too many times.  Switches are designed for more actuation cycles than breakers and are easier to install too.
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 26, 2011, 11:13:42 AM
I remember playing with a posted set of motion control macros earlier this year.  I have gone back through to find them, but can't seem to locate them.   B:(

As I recall, there were 3 macros for general use and an extra one for testing purposes.  That's probably not enough detailed info, but can anyone remember this post and provide a link?   :angel:
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: pomonabill221 on April 26, 2011, 04:11:18 PM
Ahhhh, I may have a resolution to some degree...at least as for why the motion sensor doesn't work reliably.  I found that the motion sensor requires the resistance of a light bulb in order to turn on the switched 120vac leg (actually, it fooled me and cost me my first power flash module, but that's another story  :').  I decided the best bet was to install the smallest wattage light bulb I could find inside the garage and use it as an indicator that motion was sensed.  I found a 7.5 watt bulb and things looked like they worked ok.  As it turns out, that motion sensor requires a minimum of a 40 watt resistive load for things to work correctly.  I'll have to give that a try and see what, if anything, is improved by installing the correct bulb.  I don't know why that's not in the spec for the unit.  Seems simple enough to publish the range of bulbs that work (40-500watt) and don't work (inductive bulbs like CFL and LED).

 LOL... do I hear "Le Poof"?  rofl rofl  Been there, done that too!
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 26, 2011, 05:08:06 PM
LOL... do I hear "Le Poof"?  rofl rofl  Been there, done that too!
I thought it was more of a "Le ZAP", but yeah.   ;D
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: pomonabill221 on April 26, 2011, 05:29:21 PM
LOL... do I hear "Le Poof"?  rofl rofl  Been there, done that too!
I thought it was more of a "Le ZAP", but yeah.   ;D
Well... THAT too! oops! rofl
  Was it spectacular as well?
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 26, 2011, 06:29:29 PM
There was a small light show, but no smoke.  Doesn't that mean it should still work? 

I mean, ALL electronics work on smoke.  Once you let it out, they don't work any more.  Since the smoke didn't make it out, then everything should be fine, right?   :'
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 26, 2011, 06:34:29 PM
Oh, I think I figured out that I'm making the chime delay too complicated.  B:(

I know I've read Puck's post in the past, but it just struck me that I'm trying to do this exact same procedure.

http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=14775.0

I just need to turn on the dummy chime module as well as a dummy light module every time motion is sensed.  Each of those modules will have their own triggered macros that run but don't need to know about each other.  The chime will only fire if the delayed chime macro isn't running (based on a flag).  The lighting macro will work very similarly to what I'm currently using, but will use a delay instead of a received off command to turn off the lights.  I think I can get each of those working now based on other examples already posted.  It should be trivial getting these both to work now that I realize I can separate their logic.  I was thinking I needed a macro tree that would be 12+ long!  WAY too much logic for simple little AHP + Smart Macros.   >!
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: pomonabill221 on April 26, 2011, 09:17:03 PM
  They will not run simultaneously because the CM15 sends PLC commands serially, but the delay will be very short between commands, and should not really be noticed.
  Dont' know if one macro would have to complete before the other one starts (probably), but they should happen pretty fast if so!
  Yeah... magic smoke is a MUST for electronics to work!  Should still work ok!  Give it a try... bet it does!  (yeah RIGHT!!!)
Title: Re: Wireless motion sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 26, 2011, 09:34:52 PM
Hey, you were right.  It did work!  It hums along just fine now.   rofl