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ActiveHome Pro => Plug-ins => OnAlert => Topic started by: phongluu on April 04, 2011, 01:37:57 AM

Title: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 04, 2011, 01:37:57 AM
Is it possible to have AHP with OnAlert plugins receive the cmd of ARM & DisARM from the console?
I notice that this new x10 console has ARM & DisARM feature with password. It's great feature, but I find it no where that AHP can register it.

Is it possible using somekind of modding as back then with UM506 to DisARM the DS7000 in AHP?
I'm thinking to get one to play and upgrade...but what fun it is if I have to press the remote to reset in AHP after already DisARM from the console....

Give me your ideas...

Thanks,
P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: OldSalt on April 07, 2011, 09:01:17 PM
The SC1200 sends A1, A2, A on twice then A1, A2, A off twice when arming.  These will change depending on how you program it.

Nothing appears to be sent when the system is disarmed at the console. 
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 10, 2011, 07:47:40 PM
Thanks OldSalt.

Look like this new console is doing no good with OnAlert when coming to DisARM from the console. Dawn it!
With pw protection to DisARM from the console, but what good it brings when sending out nothing!

P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 11, 2011, 02:21:50 AM
This dawn new SC12A is tricky within OnAlert! Let's share some info:

1. So when Arming, the unit sends out Housecode (HC, let's just say A), A1, A2 ON
2. IF it's Armed sucess w/o any zone error, it sends out A1, A2 OFF
3. IF it's Armed not success, nothing sending out

HOWEVER, within OnAlert, the A1, A2 ON can be used as trigger ONLY! The A1, A2 OFF do nothing.
If the OFF cmd is used to do something in the macro = nada!

Why is that?
Is it a bug as it's required more than 1 macro to do something with Security sensor as the trigger?

P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: dave w on April 11, 2011, 11:13:24 AM
Look like this new console is doing no good with OnAlert when coming to DisARM from the console. Dawn it!
With pw protection to DisARM from the console, but what good it brings when sending out nothing!
OnAlert should be able to pick up Arm and Disarm commands from the RF remotes. Does that help?
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 11, 2011, 12:56:06 PM
Yes it can. OnAlert can pickup from the remote for Arm and Disarm, business as usual, as same as if it's using with DS7000.

The new console brings in new feature: Arm and DisArm from the console with password protection, and it was advertised as working with OnAlert. But disarming from the console now will NOT Disarm in OnAlert.

I'm thinking of a way now...I dont mind to open it up
Any tips?

Thanks,
P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: dave w on April 11, 2011, 02:41:42 PM
I'm thinking of a way now...I dont mind to open it up
Any tips?
OK I understand you want to disarm at console keypad. Since you don't mind shooting the warranty, you could connect a Power Flash across the "ARMED" LED. The Power Flash would send HCUC ON when armed and HCUC OFF when disarmed.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 11, 2011, 03:39:52 PM
Quote
OK I understand you want to disarm at console keypad. Since you don't mind shooting the warranty, you could connect a Power Flash across the "ARMED" LED. The Power Flash would send HCUC ON when armed and HCUC OFF when disarmed.
Quote

;) Thanks Dave

P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 15, 2011, 02:04:40 AM
Ok, tried the suggest above = doing no good. It couldn't trigger the powerflash with either option A (voltage) or B (close contact) at all!
I even tried to use some 5v relay = nada: too low current ~200mA
I tried some tranistor with 4.7k, feed in 10v to drive a 5v relay = stil couldn't do it...

I need some more suggestions, please? ;)
What would be the good way to detect 2v LED light turn on/off?
I see some photolight option, but it'll make it loook odd from outside. I don't mind to messup inside the board thou ;)

Oh, so the LED legs: both measured 5v to ground. When it's armed, one drop to 3v.

Again, your inputs are greatly appreciated.
P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Brian H on April 15, 2011, 06:19:18 AM
I have never traced the circuitry for the LEDs but on the side that goes to 3 volts. You may find a current limiting resistor. The other side of that resistor may be switched to common by a transistor or signal pin from the controller chip. You maybe able to use that signal.

Side note here. On the powerflash module. When it is in the dry contact mode. The sensing voltage it produces is reversed from the + and - label on the back used for DC input information. I ran into this trying to use an ELK Doorbell sensing board.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 15, 2011, 04:34:18 PM
Thanks Brian,

I tried that too, but it didnt work either. As it's only produces ~4.47v accross when it's armed, and 0V when not.
Powerflash requires at least 6v, or close contact.

P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: dave w on April 15, 2011, 05:00:08 PM
Thanks Brian,

I tried that too, but it didnt work either. As it's only produces ~4.47v accross when it's armed, and 0V when not.
Powerflash requires at least 6v, or close contact.

P.L

Sorry PL I figured the LED voltage would be enough to trigger the Power Flash. The following thread outlines users who have attached cadmium sulfide cells in front of pilot lights and used that to trigger the Power Flash. Don't know if that is usable or not.

http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=23156.0
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Brandt on April 15, 2011, 06:12:20 PM
Could you make a voltage doubler circuit with some diodes?
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: dave w on April 15, 2011, 06:20:06 PM
Could you make a voltage doubler circuit with some diodes?
Good suggestion, except you need AC or pulsating DC to build charges in a cap.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Brian H on April 15, 2011, 06:20:47 PM
Maybe a small DC to DC converter or an electronic circuit to take the 4 volts or so and close the powerflashs contacts in dry contact mode.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: dave w on April 15, 2011, 06:23:39 PM
I tried that too, but it didnt work either. As it's only produces ~4.47v accross when it's armed, and 0V when not.
Powerflash requires at least 6v, or close contact.
4.5 V should be enough to trigger a sensitive relay, and use N.O. contacts to trigger Power Flash in dry contact mode.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-495/5-VDC-DIP-REED-RELAY/1.html

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-541/5-VDC-SPST-N.O.-DIP-REED-RELAY/1.html

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-528/3-VDC-DPDT-MINIATURE-RELAY/1.html

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-532/5-VDC-DPDT-MINI-SIGNAL-RELAY-2A/1.html
etc.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 15, 2011, 09:37:07 PM
Thanks dave w, again... all inputs are appreciated. I'm gonna try one at the time...

As I did try with the 5 VDC relay DPDT as in your last link: it couldnt do it, as the current is too little, while the relay needs few hundred mA.
I think the LED current is around 20mA?

I'm gonna read on the first 3 relays that you post there. Thanks.

I may have to hit google with somehow comeup with small circuit to detect this low current LED on....

P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Knightrider on April 15, 2011, 10:22:51 PM
google "opto-coupler" or "opto-isolator"
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 15, 2011, 11:42:55 PM
Thanks a lot. 
That sounds great!
I'm gonna try that and be back here with result.
Do you know if pin 1&2 of optocouple draws to much current, when it's mounted parallel with armed LED?
Shouldn't be ....
Hmm....I'll experience it.
Thanks again,
P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Brian H on April 16, 2011, 06:09:11 AM
Most optocouplers have a LED in them and require a current limiting resistor also be used. In series with pin 1 or 2.

Connecting 1 and 2 across the consoles LED would use the current limiting resistor of the console LED. Depending on the exact optocoupler used. The consoles LED maybe dim as the total current now is split between the original LED and the optocouplers input.

Also remember. The Powerflash in the dry contact mode has an internally generated voltage on the input contacts.
On mine the terminal market + is actually - when in the dry contact mode.
So the solid state output on the optocoupler would need to have the correct polarity on its connections.
I ran into this when I connected an ELK Doorbell Current Sensor to a Powerflash. It used a optocoupler for its output.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Knightrider on April 16, 2011, 09:36:14 AM
I was thinking that you could just remove the LED on the SC1200, and use the whole voltage to drive the opto.  If there's a powerflash involved, another means of notification would always be present.  i.e. Dave_X10_L's table top lantern that monitors the garage door.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: dave w on April 16, 2011, 09:52:42 AM
phongluu
The very first relay has a coil resistance of 350 ohm. That would get you down to 14 ma at 5V, which might trigger the relay if the coil took the place of the LED. Or if you could identify the current limit resister for that LED you might be able to connect one side of the relay to the input side of the resister and to the "return" side of the LED (?).

The opto isolator is a great idea too, if the dry contact mode of the Power Flash has enough potential to get conduction through the opto's output transistor(?).

I want to try the cadmium sulfide cell trick with a Power Flash, but just haven't got to Radio Shark to get the cells. I don't know if a LED will drop the Cds cell resistance enough to trigger the Power Flash.

Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Brian H on April 16, 2011, 02:01:42 PM
I did some tests with a Powerflash module and some optocouplers.

All I had in my stash of parts where 4N31 and 4N33 NPN Darlington output chips. So I could not try the 4N25-4N28 NPN transistor types.

All of the 4N33 and 4N31 chips pulled the Powerflash outputs to .25 volts with around 4 ma of input current and it triggered fine. Raising the input current to 10 ma and the output was like 50-100 mv depending on individual chips.

Only thing I saw on one of the test chips was the output was slightly On at 5.95 volts from the 6.1 volts completely open. Had to add a 100K resistor from the outputs base pin to emitter pin. Must have had enough gain to slightly turn on.

Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Brian H on April 18, 2011, 10:35:22 AM
I have a few optocouplers with NPN transistor outputs on order and will try them with a Powerflash. When they arrive.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 18, 2011, 01:01:11 PM
I'm ordering few octocouples today...

On other note, I found these old posts, I can learn something from them:
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=12761.0
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=18016.0

yet, I'd like to do something as just simple as with octocouples and powerfash ;)

I'll be back with some results...


Thansk all.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Brian H on April 18, 2011, 04:41:46 PM
Keep us in the loop on how they work for you.
I have a few with NPN transistor outputs on order myself.
I have tried ones with NPN Darlington transistor outputs and they did work with a Powerflash.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 18, 2011, 06:18:50 PM
Yes, I sure will be back with results.

On the note of NPN transistor, I beleive it should make the powerflash trigger. However, I still haven't thought of a way to connnect to the armed LED of SC12A: both legs are measured 5v, one drops to 3v when it's armed.

P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 22, 2011, 11:47:49 PM
Ok. Results:
1. I have tried all options for nothing! All type of relays, transistors, opamp, optocouplers = nothing seem can trigger the powerflash that AHP can register.
      . As small relay with as low as 10mA, 5v
      . Optocoupler

After the optocoupler not working, I start thinking...something definitely not right here, as I bench test it and it trigger the powerflash perfectly. Why not with SC12A LED armed....?!

Then I discOver that while arming SC12A sending out HC On/Of cmd that blocks EVERYTHING at that moment!

2. Now, after I filter the SC12A PS and just simply connect the powerflash to the LED = working perfectly!

I will upload a pix later to show where to get 4.7v when arming success (passing the dropping resistor)

Dawn this SC12A!
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: phongluu on April 23, 2011, 02:32:10 AM
More data:

So with SC12A PS filtered:
1. Arming on the console, it triggers the powerflash fine with just connect to the LED (no relay, no optocouplers, no etc...)
2. Arming on the Remote or OnAlert: it does not trigger the powertflash that connects to the LED as same as in (1)! WTH!
3. DisArming on console or on remote or OnAlert: it triggers the powerflash just fine.


I wish x10 documented it somewhere how exactly this thing works.
That reminds me how the DS7000 act diff when arming with remote, OnAlert

DS7000: remote arm: HC ON, then OFF (if success); OnAlert: HC ON!
x10, AHP sometime drive me nut ;)

P.L
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Brian H on April 23, 2011, 06:16:38 AM
Yes when armed home from the console. It does send out the two lights codes On. Then an Off about one second later.

In arm away from the console. It sends the On, Exit delay times out and sends the Off.

The Keyfob is Arm Away with no delay. The consoles manual briefly touches on the no delay thing.

Supposed to be a visual indication of the armed activation.

Since both the Powerflash and Console are not polite. They will step on each other.

One thing to think about. If you filter the consoles power supply. It will no longer flash the lights or trigger a Powerhorn Siren on an alarm.
Title: Re: SC12A with OnAler AHP: ARM & DisARM cmd
Post by: Brian H on April 23, 2011, 06:41:40 AM
Power line signals sent during Arming with varied methods.

My Light Code is B1. So the second Light Code is B2.

Monitored with a Smarthome 1132CU and Smarthome Essentials Software.

Console Arm Home:
R: B1 - 6:35:28 AM 4/23/2011
R: B2 - 6:35:28 AM 4/23/2011
R: BOn - 6:35:29 AM 4/23/2011
R: B1 - 6:35:29 AM 4/23/2011
R: B2 - 6:35:30 AM 4/23/2011
R: BOff - 6:35:30 AM 4/23/2011

Console Arm Away adds Exit Delay:
R: B1 - 6:35:43 AM 4/23/2011
R: B2 - 6:35:44 AM 4/23/2011
R: BOn - 6:35:44 AM 4/23/2011
R: B1 - 6:36:43 AM 4/23/2011
R: B2 - 6:36:43 AM 4/23/2011
R: BOff - 6:36:44 AM 4/23/2011

KR32A Arm Away No Exit delay:
R: B1 - 6:37:00 AM 4/23/2011
R: B2 - 6:37:00 AM 4/23/2011
R: BOn - 6:37:01 AM 4/23/2011
R: B1 - 6:37:01 AM 4/23/2011
R: B2 - 6:37:02 AM 4/23/2011
R: BOff - 6:37:02 AM 4/23/2011