X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => X10 Product Wish List => Topic started by: mickoes on August 14, 2011, 01:22:48 AM
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Hello,
Just sharing my thought here, it would be great to be able to unlock/lock your door with the push of a button. Not everybody care that it could be reverse engineered, nor packed with extreme security.
Probably that this suggestion has already been shared in the past. But it's ok :)
Thanks
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Infrared operated door locks provide both good security and convenience.
- http://www.smarthome.com/5180N/IR-Remote-Controlled-Keyless-Entry-Deadbolt-Satin-Nickel-KF-01N/p.aspx
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I've also thought about the RFID operated locks (http://www.smarthome.com/51518/Samsung-EZON-SHS-3120XMK-Digital-Deadbolt-Door-Lock-with-RFID-Card/p.aspxas) as well. I know they aren't "push button" like the OP requested. But for women that carry a purse it could be a real effort saver... just carrying the purse would allow entry. The RFID works with men too... only finding keys in pockets somehow seems easier. Some new cars now have the same type of RFID "keys" that also... by just having the RFID device with you allows you to push the start button and drive away.
Also.... now with the cell phone software and even traditional old electric locks... so many things can be operated via a smartphone.
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I've also thought about the RFID operated locks
RFID (or any RF device without rolling codes) is easily hacked, even from great distance.
Biometric locks are are another secure choice but they cost a lot more than IR.
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I've also thought about the RFID operated locks
RFID (or any RF device without rolling codes) is easily hacked, even from great distance.
Biometric locks are are another secure choice but they cost a lot more than IR.
I don't know about your region, but most thieves around here don't know how to properly operate a computer. Besides, unless you have your windows protected against robbery any kind of lock security is useless. I wouldn't see myself locking a precious safe with X10 hardware anyway.
Sure other alternatives are there, but it would be great if it was operated by the X10 system :)
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I don't know about your region, but most thieves around here don't know how to properly operate a computer.
Thieves everywhere are dumb, lazy, and generally drunk or high while committing crimes. The average break in is just slipping in a door that someone forgot to close or lock, followed by just kicking open a door. About three years ago (at Christmas time) someone in my area entered a house through a hole in the wall that they cut with a chainsaw.
If you keep items of real value in your home.... once a burglar finds out... they will take them. No home is that hard to break into.
The burglar that concerns me the most is the neighborhood kid that has developed a drug problem. If I allowed my home to be an easy target I wouldn't feel like I was being a decent neighbor. Kids often have a period in their lives when they do stupid things.
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I've also thought about the RFID operated locks
RFID (or any RF device without rolling codes) is easily hacked, even from great distance.
Biometric locks are are another secure choice but they cost a lot more than IR.
I don't know about your region, but most thieves around here don't know how to properly operate a computer. Besides, unless you have your windows protected against robbery any kind of lock security is useless. I wouldn't see myself locking a precious safe with X10 hardware anyway.
Sure other alternatives are there, but it would be great if it was operated by the X10 system :)
Do you know any detailed report about RFID hacking? I am using RFID myself, so I would like to find out more.
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Do you know any detailed report about RFID hacking? I am using RFID myself, so I would like to find out more.
I think most people have only seen some "news" reports like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmajlKJlT3U&feature=related). With a mere mention that a... larger antenna... would allow long range hacking.
Cars and houses are NOT places to store valuable items. Locks, only help keep honest people honest.
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Do you know any detailed report about RFID hacking? I am using RFID myself, so I would like to find out more.
You will likely need to search but there was an article from 3-4 years ago detailing the reading the RFID entry cards to a secured law enforcement facility in LA. As I recall, it was done (during a hacking conference) from a couple blocks away looking down on the entrance from a highrise office building using a Pringles cantenna. Sorry, I don't have a link - I lost a network HDD with most of my notes on things like this a couple of years ago. You might find where I posted about it to Usenet's comp.home.automation group.
This should get you started...
- http://www.bing.com/search?q=rfid+hacking&qs=AS&sk=&pq=rfid+hack&sp=1&sc=8-9&form=QBRE
As for those disdainful of the intelligence of the typical burglar, you don't know what you are talking about (or are selling useless alarm systems and don't care to know). A local (Cincinnati) TV news department did some interviews with incarcerated burglars a few years back and I've seen other supporting reports and documentation (including federal government stats).
Most are pros in that they make their living burglarizing houses. They see periods of incarceration as "a cost of doing business". They study the technology and pass info around amongst others in their "profession". Most break-ins occur mid-day when they know (from observation) that the house is empty. The best deterrent is a big, mean, protective dog inside the house, not in the yard.
They are usually in and gone in a few minutes, long before police can respond to any alarms.
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...... there was an article from 3-4 years ago detailing the reading the RFID entry cards to a secured law enforcement facility in LA. As I recall, it was done (during a hacking conference) from a couple blocks away looking down on the entrance from a highrise office building using a Pringles cantenna.........
Certainly.... your not saying these criminals actually even claimed to enter the secured facility? Is it they merely claimed to be able to capture the code? Great a claim from a known, or at least admitted criminals. Where has such a break in ever occurred? Why would I believe these hackers?
.... As for those disdainful of the intelligence of the typical burglar, you don't know what you are talking about (or are selling useless alarm systems and don't care to know).
I am not selling anything! My Dad was a career police officer for more than 25 years... and never once (not even one time)... saw a break in due to a picked lock or any other TV-like professional action or technology.
Homes are so easy to enter... it would be insulting to criminals to imply they are so stupid they would invest time, effort, and money to learn to hack the rare RFID entry lock. I worked for the federal government... and they and many of the corporations they deal with do trust RFID... and have for a few years. So far... no incidents have been reported.
Do you really believe that someone... ANYone... is out there attempting to hack residential RFID locks?
dhouston... please don't take any offence. Your knowledge and accomplishments are well known and respected... as are you. Everything is hackable. But a video made by some MIT students and a Boston reporter.... isn't an actual threat to me or my family. Crappy doors and windows are. Addicts in need of money are. Kids with too much free time are. But tech savvy geeks and nerds.... not so much.
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RFID is fairly secure but needs the correct electro-mechanical physical locking mechanism to keep the door closed. The RFID portion is just a fancy switch. You could always put a simple momentary pushbutton into the circuit if that's what you want to do.
If you want to bypass RFID just go for the mechanical key bypass mechanism that is installed on almost every system. It's likely to be a standard (not high security) system, as the client is putting all their faith in the security aspect of what is, essentially, a locking system of convenience.
If you're not comfortable picking the key mechanism you could just throw a brick through a window.
RFID scanners are available for fairly short money. Pry-bars are less expensive. Rocks are easier to come by and don't come with the warning to use safety glasses.
High-tech thieves do exist, but they are mostly saved up for movies, exhibitions and TV 'documentaries' (the kind where they use silhouettes and voice changers). If a thief has gone to the trouble of investing time and knowledge in scanners and hacking, then he/she is not likely to be stupid enough to get caught trying to steal your DVD player. The really good ones rarely get out of the house and spend their time stealing credit card numbers from reasonably insecure websites.
The most common thief today is still the opportunist - quick cash or easy to dispose of. I disagree that most are drug addicts or drunk (muscular co-ordination plays a role in throwing a rock through a window). I do agree that there are career criminals who are fully able to make a living stealing your loose change from your bedside cabinet and your easy to fence TV - $100 a day is fairly good money when you only work at lunchtime and you don't have to pay taxes :)
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I said nothing about lock-picking (bump keys take minimal skill) or hacking home security systems or electronic locks but things like reading the obituaries and figuring that a house will likely be unoccupied during a family member's funeral are rather common - it happened next door to me about 12 years ago and the police said it was not unusual.
The statistics are fairly clear. Most residential break-ins (>60%) occur in daytime at unoccupied houses with the burglars gaining entry by forcing a door (or finding one unlocked) or breaking a window and being in the house less than 10 minutes. Alarm companies will even cite the stats, leaving out the last part since it means the burglars are gone before there's a response to any alarm. Get a (housebroken) dog, keep doors/windows locked and keep your insurance up to date. And, if it means a commensurate discount on your insurance premiums, by all means get an alarm system.
OTOH, most business break-ins (>60%) occur at night when the premises are unoccupied.
- http://www.bing.com/search?q=burglary+statistics&go=&qs=n&sk=&sc=8-19&form=QBRE
Pointing out that nearly all RF operated devices (except for rolling codes) are easily hacked does not imply that most burglars are skilled hackers. However, why waste your money on expensive locks that won't stop a burglary or trust in locks that are inherently insecure.
And, the fact that burglars are not usually skilled hackers does not imply that they are totally inept. They understand alarm response times, know to observe to learn when a house is unoccupied and have basic skills appropriate to their chosen line of work.
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I can't prove it here. But I know for a fact... your average burglar was that cute kid you bought lemon aid from [at his stand in front of his house].... just a few years ago. You know the person!
He (or SHE) knows your car, when you work, when you bowl or golf. He knows your house and how it is constructed. He can get in... anytime he decides to. Believe it or not... almost always... drugs and/or booze will be used during the crime. When homes were robbed in the small town where I grew-up the local police (not my Dad) would ask the school who skipped that day... then go recover the stolen propriety.
If your a decent neighbor... you owe it to the parents that have kids at home... to provide as much of a deterrent to crime as you can.
We have a somewhat new problem now. With gold prices through the roof and many construction workers with no income. Jewelry boxes and laptops can get a person by.
But just think about it this way. We're all pretty techy here at this forum. If you or I wake up tonight and notice the neighbors house is on fire... how will you react? I will yell for my wife to call 911... then run to the home and kick open the door... and try my best to be as helpful as I can. Maybe... you big brained guys.... will boot-up your laptop or grab your smart phones (is there an app for doors?). Maybe you'll run to your workshop to grab a special tool. But you'll likely not need it.
It's true... kicking open a door...won't work at my house. There actually might be a couple other homes on my street properly locked and fortified as well. But we don't do it cause we think someone might steal our stuff. We have insurance, and we don't store valuables. We secure our homes to protect the kids and to be good neighbors.
Sure we have alarms. Alarms do just exactly what the name implies. They alarm (or alert) us to the robbery in progress. That is handy as it will prevent us from walking in on someone stealing our stuff. They may have stole stuff from someone else last night... and part of that stuff may have been a loaded handgun.
If you want use a IR or RFID lock... and it helps you keep your door locked by removing some of the hassle. GREAT. They haven't let anyone down yet. And a locked door, alarm yard signs, and some security cameras.... helps the neighbors with problem kids. They'll be happier people at the block party... when the kids aren't in reform school.
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I can't prove it here. But I know for a fact...
Then you should let the FBI benefit from your expertise... >!
- http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/property_crime/burglary.html
The clearance rate will skyrocket.
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Then you should let the FBI benefit from your expertise... >!
Thanks! Actually the government benefited from my expertise for many years. I am retired now. I understand stats very well, and I am confident in what I am posting too. I know people enjoy the mental game of thinking security is protection against some Robert Wagner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKT_hWv_fbQ) type... instead of a pimple faced kid with glazed red eyes and pants around his knees. But facts are stubborn.
Are you reading this part... of your link:
Clearances and Juveniles
The UCR Program has established reporting guidelines that are unique to clearances involving juvenile offenders. First, law enforcement agencies may clear an offense by arrest even though no physical arrest may have occurred, e.g., when a juvenile is turned over to juvenile authorities. Second, when clearing a crime that involves both juvenile and adult offenders, law enforcement reports the clearance as an adult clearance.
In the little town at the time when I grew up.... drop out rates were tiny.... 2 or 4 percent. That was never the normal nationwide... but far from any helpful information today. Far too many kids don't show-up to schools in Americas cities today... but then you know that.
Are you just trying to be disagreeable... or do you actually have helpful information about someone... somewhere... that hacked a RFID secured ANYTHING and actually stole something (not just said they could have)? Certainly.... if this is the real threat you think it is.... there should be many, many, many crimes you could point to where a crook hacked a RFID secured entry card.
Unfortunately (for really bright people) security at home is pretty simple stuff. Good solid doors and windows with working locks that are used. Closing the garage door when mowing or playing in the yard (out of view of the garage). Using lights at night, and practicing habits of random activity. Playing a radio at times, having a neighbor watch your home. Normal... boring crap. Not fun... code stealing high-tech smart guy banits... just real life.
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Here... I started this thread sometime ago (4 years?). I believe many break ins can be prevented. I believe... it is a deserving and responsible thing to do as well.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=13351.msg74400#msg74400
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According to those statistics from several years ago, most burglarous crime within the USA was committed in July and August. See table 2.25.
Residential crime was more common than non-residential crime. Figure 2.11.
The majority of residential crimes were committed between 6am and 6pm. Text.
What months are the schools closed in this country?
Where do bored kids hang out?
At what times are kids most likely to have least supervision?
Although the last paragraph states that juvenile arrests are a smaller percentage than the statistics would indicate, it also says that if an adult is part of the crime then the crime is not recorded as a juvenile event. If a 16 year old goes 'out on the rob' with a 19 year old acquaintance, it counts as an adult crime.
You'll also see that only 12.2% of forced entry attacks were 'solved' and from figure 3.1 only 12.9% of all burglaries were cleared by arrest. With these age statistics only including 12.9% of actual crimes reported it's a bit unfair to say that these crimes are NOT being committed by juveniles - the statistics on dates and times would indicate that Dave X10 could be completely correct with his 'kids' theory.
Forcible entry was by far more popular than unlawful entry, which was a complete surprise to me. However it could be that a small amount of cash stolen from a kitchen table behind an unlocked door could quite easily go unnoticed and therefore unreported.
I would be most interested in some more up-to-date information regarding break-ins where the resident (or their child) has boasted on FaceBook that they'll be at Disney for the first two weeks in July :P
In my experience (25+ years of locksmithing) only around 5% of residential customers spring for anything other than the average locking system, according to the statistics only around 9% of reported forced entry is 'attempted' rather than 'successful' - does this prove that higher security locks are successful against stopping forced entry, or does the high forced entry number indicate that forced entry equally divided between high quality and low quality locking systems? Unfortunately, the statistics don't divulge that information.
With statistics you can prove almost anything - and I'm 97.376% sure of that rofl
Back to the OP, what you'd like is readily achievable with RF, IR or wired pushbuttons. I don't recommend it, but it's certainly within the bounds of reality. Throw a handicap door opener on and you don't even have to push the door :)
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..... the statistics on dates and times would indicate that Dave X10 could be completely correct with his 'kids' theory.
Thanks... but it doesn't really matter. I do understand there are a few hard case oldtimers out there. Those that after spending half their lives in prison still return to the site where they did roof, concrete, gutter or whatever work... hoping to score fast easy money. I guess they are the "professionals" in that "line of work". I actually went to school with a couple of those guys. Both went off to reform school.
I've also been lucky(?) enough to have had a tour of a prison (and a jail). It was a prison for 1st time felons. The official told me that the biggest part of their job was education. 80% of the inmates could NOT read a newspaper or fill out a job application. Not only did they try to teach the inmates to read... but they also educated them in hygiene and other such basic idles.
Right now we are having tough times... and I understand this could improve the class of criminals that take our stuff. But if it does... I don't think it will be by much.
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According to those statistics from several years ago...
That just happened to be the first one I found but The FBI puts out such a summary for every year. There may be a lag of a year or so but I'm sure you can find more recent ones if interested. I'm also sure they will be quite similar - I've seen others and the numbers do not change much from year to year.
You might also consider that the summer months are vacation time when houses are frequently unoccupied for a week or two.
Also, if most of the burglars are neighborhood teenagers, the kops must be really inept to catch so few of them.
Several years ago my seatmate on a trans-Atlantic flight was a deadheading pilot who was reading a book on locksmithing and who planned to go into the field when he reached the airline's mandatory retirement age. I couldn't help but think that he would have made the ideal international cat burglar for the movies.
The exploit with the RFID locks and the law enforcement facility in LA was publicized at the security conference (it may have been an early Blackhat Conference) going on at the time. The people in charge of the building were informed.
Very recently, two academics published a paper saying they had found a way to break the KeeLoq rolling code system widely used in automobile locks in a fairly short time with only a need to be in close proximity to the keyfob. The technically adept thief can now find more profitable use of his/her time stealing BMWs.
My point is the same as in all my posts to the thread - that most high-tech locks are inherently insecure and when they are reasonably secure, burglars will just break a window, so the expense is hard to justify. But, as I noted in my initial response IR operated locks are reasonably secure (because of the very short range of the IR) and quite convenient. I used them for a few years, giving keyfobs to all those who frequently came by so I did not have to hobble to the door and let them in (my spinal cord was thankful). The one I linked to is a high quality lock with a hardened deadbolt. It can be operated with a key as well. They can even be used in apartment buildings with all keyfobs programmed to open common entry doors and to common areas but each with only one entry to an individual apartment.
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...... if most of the burglars are neighborhood teenagers, the kops must be really inept to catch so few of them.
I asked my Dad (a police officer) about capture rates once years ago (Dad of course is no longer with us). He said "they always get caught.... They just don't get caught everytime."
I remember repeating that to a guy many years ago... right after OJ was found not guilty (of killing his wife and her friend). Don't think for a minute that criminals don't get caught or go to prison. They do. Each and every one of them... sooner or later... for one thing or another.
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I believe I covered that by writing that professional burglars see occasional jail terms as "a cost of doing business". But the low clearance rates would indicate those costs are not prohibitive.
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the low clearance rates would indicate those costs are not prohibitive.
No disrespect, but I think your logic is slightly flawed.
The low clearance rates only indicate that not many criminals are caught.
If your point is to prove that jail terms are not prohibitive then you should be looking at re-offense after incarceration statistics - I'm 98.7% sure those numbers are readily available and I'm 99.976% sure that they'll prove you to be right at least 76.343% of the time.
IMO, jail terms are like vacations for career criminals - free rent, free food, free TV and a wealth of knowledge that you can use when you get let out early for 'good' behaviour.
Back to the original post, once more.
If you'd like to have your front door open with a simple pushbutton, you have a small chance of recovering your TV **WHEN** it gets stolen. I can point you in the right direction to do what you'd like, but I'd need a signed disclaimer first :)
If you'd like to have your front door open when you turn a high security key in a high security lock, you have the same small chance of recovering your TV, but I firmly believe that you are reducing your chances of having your TV stolen in the first place. I can point you in the right direction AND give you the name of an insurance agent who will hopefully cover your losses. That same insurance agent will possibly give you discounts on your policy rates for added security features such as lights and alarms. Please note that your insurance is possibly invalid if you refuse to lock your doors or have doors that are easily opened simply by pushing a single unsecured button, especially if you live in an area with a high crime rate.
Please be advised that this FREE information is (probably) worth a just a little more than you paid for it.
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I believe I covered that by writing that professional burglars see occasional jail terms as "a cost of doing business". But the low clearance rates would indicate those costs are not prohibitive.
I've known a few "professional" criminals. Each and everyone never thought they'd get caught.... this time. They don't accept and plan... its really a lot more of a spur-of-the-moment lifestyle. Steal a dog here.... and resell it, shoplift when at the store, grab a jacket from a public coatrack, pickup a waitresses tip when leaving a restaurant, drive off without paying for gasoline, take anything of value that isn't nailed down. It isn't a profession or chosen line of work. Unlike on TV.... most live in Mom's basement or with a girlfriend.
Many spend half of their adult lives in prison. Only a few percent ever sober up and catch on.
Alexander Mundy.... was just a fictional person written by screen writers and played by actor Robert Wagner in the old TV series... It takes a thief. It was good entertainment... and may have changed the way many think of burglars. But it was just a TV show. It wasn't based on real people or events.
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Well, I guess we travel in different circles - I've never knowingly known a professional burglar - I just saw the series of interviews with real-life incarcerated professional burglars I referred to early on. However, if you are right and they truly are such bumbling fools, one wonders why nearly 85% of burglaries go unsolved.
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.... I just saw the series of interviews with real-life incarcerated professional burglars
Saw? You mean watched on TV? Watching isn't the same as seeing. I think maybe... you've watched a little too much TV... if you've started thinking it's real life.
In my position with the government I did a interview for TV. Three hours of questions, joking around, making small talk.... and filming. The 15 seconds that was shown on CNN didn't seem to have anything to do with what I remembered about the interview. The editors create what they want to show. It's TV... just TV.
........ if you are right and they truly are such bumbling fools, one wonders why nearly 85% of burglaries go unsolved.
How... would you propose the police solve those crimes? Don't tell me you've been watching cop and CSI shows too. Police do nothing to solve a comman burglary. I think they actually expect people to be smart enough not to store valuables.... and to carry insurance.
I would be willing to bet that 85% of the time... people that drink and drive... don't get caught. The same with speeders, shoplifters, people that buy (and sell) drugs. We don't live in a police state... or a TV show.
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Well, since this seems to have degenerated into attacks on my credibility and basic intelligence, I'll leave you with one last URL...
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_identity_theft
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuzKJJ8U7us
Make that two - I couldn't resist adding the second one. Several years ago, the University of KY used a similar setup to track RFID-tagged cattle from a helicopter.
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Well, since this seems to have degenerated into attacks on my credibility and basic intelligence...
Well to be fair dhouston, I think you had started the attack on credibility and basic intelligence when you posted, "As for those disdainful of the intelligence of the typical burglar, you don't know what you are talking about."
Can we move on?
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.... this seems to have degenerated into attacks on my credibility and basic intelligence, ...
Bull. Your one of the brightest and most credable stars in the Home Automation field. It's only your ideas of who robs who... that seems a little odd... compared to every fact I've ever heard or read. Only TV shows and internet hoaxes support the hacker ideas.
....Several years ago, the University of KY used a similar setup to track RFID-tagged cattle from a helicopter.
Yes... and bears in another project. Similar units are used to ID cars in automated parking lots. And your point is? These are powered units designed for such uses. This doesn't change anything! The question has been since the beginning of this thread. Who, where, when has anyone been harmed using an RFID lock (had a door lock picked/tricked/hacked) by a thief. As many years as they have been in use... I don't think you will find even ONE documented case. That in any reasonable persons outlook.... is safe.
Scaring people with campfire stories or tales of high-tech hacker-thieves may sound like fun. But false information.... on an information forum... just isn't right.
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Infrared operated door locks provide both good security and convenience.
- http://www.smarthome.com/5180N/IR-Remote-Controlled-Keyless-Entry-Deadbolt-Satin-Nickel-KF-01N/p.aspx
I have one of the Weiser Lock Powerbolt 3000, which is HomeLink compatible. Seems kind-of similar.
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RFID controller reading the RFID tag can distinguish real RFID tag and scanner, since it is likely the scanner trying different code. RFID controller can disable itself from accepting any code for two minutes, after it sees three unsuccessful tries.
I use a RFID controller to control my garage door opener, so that when we go out biking, we only carry a RFID tag. For two years now, we never have any issue. To make it not visible, I took the receiver coil from inside the RFID controller, cutting the shape like coil on the wood door frame to fit the coil inside, seal the opening with hot glue, then paint it over.
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I have read that Bill Gates home is automated using RFID tags. Family members can travel about the home with lighting, climate control, and even their favorite music traveling with them.
I believe there are many possible benefits that could be realized by better intergrating RFID. Of course my home and lifestyle doesn't require roaming climate control... but more occupancy sensing would be nice. I like the idea of doors locking and unlocking as I enter and exit. Many so-called "break-ins" don't involve breaking anything. Thieves merely walk into homes with doors left open and/or unlocked. Good automation (like RFID) adds a lot of safety and security. I hope to see more RFID options as time goes by.