X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kkoncelik on October 27, 2011, 07:31:35 AM
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I have had problems with my x10 for since I installed it. Recently however it has been more abusrd than ever. Yes lights go on without help but last night was the crowning glory. I had an issue with the coupler and X10 replaced it so I installed it. All of a sudden my screen showing the items hooked up cleared up and I had only green in the correct locations. But within an hour lights stated to turn on and switched did the same. This morning when I got up I looked at the chart and every square had a color in it. The green were still correct but the remaining squares were yellow or red about evenly split.
So its one step forward fifteen back.
Almost none of my 80 units work. Any suggestions. I have a scope and cannot find any line noise.
I do see triggers. Last night I did not have the scope at home so I did not look at it since this mess came up.
I see from the posts I am not the only one with these problems
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We need more information, like what version of AHP, any plug-ins and anything else you have.
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Maybe power line problems.
Something maybe changing.
Anything new in the home? Like a new cell phone charger or an AC run devices?
Sounds like you do have some troubleshooting experience.
On the chance you have not had a chance to read some troubleshooting tutorials.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
http://www.davehouston.net/
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Did the electric company perhaps install a new "smart meter"?
Jeff
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Jeff; It sounds like the Smart Meter question will have to be part of our troubleshooting checks.
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It could be a neighbor who just installed X10, and/or added a signal booster?
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Considering X10 has NEVER mass marketed ever. it's highly doubtful that someone on the same transformer has X10. I've had X10 since the middle 1980's and I'm the ONLY X10 user on my street in Baltimore.
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I have been responding to x10 for some time and the detail is more than i can put here but I have scoped out the line and I see no line noise.
My neighbors do not have x10 as I am the neighborhood handyman and have done a lot of work including electrical at their houses also and I am at the end of a dead end street so the houses are a bit apart and there is nothing for a half mile behind me.
I just replaced the coupler and my lights since then have been going on by themselves a lot.
In the past I have removed all rf devices including my panasonic 3d tv that does emit rf for the ed glasses plus I put a filter on that line.
I have added the dryer filter and in the past but not now have had in two line filters.
My history is my company does converters and repeaters for rs484/232/422 etc. but sending a signal down electrical wires is a different field and I am lost like most people on it.
The weird thing is that in August after a year of working to get i going the system ran pretty good. Most of the switches and outlets worked so at one time this system was 95%.
Since then I have added one outdoor circuit for my back yard and right now only a pond pump is running on it.
I have added a lot of wire to the home since I bought it and most is 12-2 w ground and some 14-2 w ground. The X10 was added when I did my new addition so most of it is in the new addition. running out of room will post additional info next post.
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In the initial installation when things were 95% the only thing not working was two switches in the new section over the fire place and in the room. They were LED lights and it was the basic on off switch. The lights would go on but not off. I added the filters there but no change. Then I changed to dimmers and they worked.
The switches were on a 4 gang wall plate all using the same power. The other two were the exact same LED lights with a set of two and a set of 4. The LED on the dimmer had to be changed to a dimmable led.
In the past I have removed all rf devices from the home or removed batteries this included keyboard and mouse I used X10 from a touchscreen monitor so no rf devices were there. Nothing changed.
To back up a bit things stopped working when we lost power. Nothing in the house was damaged by it and I did replace some units just in case but the new units reacted the same way.
As far as the lights going on per x10 reqest I changed the codes on the lights that frequently went on. Things were a bit quiet before I reinstalled the phase coupler.
The original one I felt was not working properly as I was seeing activity on the scope and there was no activity on the coupler (lights blinking) The replacement coupler was installed and now my lights as I said have gone wild. But even when activated the coupler lights do not blink other than to turn off the unit then they blink one time only. Last week on the usage chart all that showed were green now the blanks are either red or yellow. I am at a loss. I have about 80 units installed between lights and outlets.
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Last post for now I promise
I read some of the advice above and the triggers I see on some of the web sites is similar to what i see. The x10 signal spike and thanks for the nice view of line noise. I do not have that.
One thing I read a lot on what distance. I have a lot and I mean a lot of wire in my house. There is a couple thousand extra feet of wire added to the original house and when the system did work in August it had most of the wire in it but the outside wire added is on the circuit breaker that now goes outside. Added to it is yet another at least 750 feet of wire. If X10 disperses over all wire as one article suggests this may contribute. I am going to take this wire out and bring it back to when it worked by simply turning off the breaker and moving the phase coupler to another set of breakers.
Have to do that later need to go to work now
Thanks to all of you that responded so far.
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If you have over 80 X10 modules and "thousands" of feet of Romex, you need to burn your XPCR and get a XTBIIR.
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To answer a few more of your questions back to me NO I do not have a smart meter we have the old fassion meters that have to be read.
I am going to purchase the XTBIIR and see if it helps. I have AHP 3.316 and all the updates are also installed.
I also have the pyramids that I used to use to bring my remotes from upstairs to downstairs but they never worked reliable. I switched to another product and absolutely zero problems from any distance. I realize that I kinda jumped subject here but It tells me there is a problem in the frequencies that these rf units operate and that rf problem may also be what I am seeing. And by the way on my usage chart many of the squares that were blank then turned to yellow are now red. I have almost as many red as green the strange part is it says its a detected object but there is nothing there. All this happened after I installed the phase coupler XPCR. Also I am to the point of trying to boost the signal as much as I can . What is this forums suggestion for the best way to boost signal. And last but not least I have 4 computers that run. One for x10 only and one for my movie theatre room and upstairs TV. I see posts saying that computers cause issues. Again what is the best way to filter them.
I am going to start looking online for them as well.
thanks for your help.
Ken
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Here is a follow up. I turned off all the breakers in the house as directed by the technician at x10.
Tuurned on the one for the computer x10 is loaded on and moved the transmitter cm15a to the same outlet.
Also turned on the breaker for the monitor. I plugged it in to a GFI outlet seperate from any x10.
No more red boxes (all yellow have turned to red at this point)
put scope across and turned on another breaker with 4 lights (ones described above LED) they never worked right now they do.
put on another breaker and it has 3 x10 switches on the second phase.
It works on the three outlets
Put on another breaker and now they do not work (3 x10 outlets) and the original outlets from the first breaker now will go on but not off
Played with a few more breakers and we are back to start. Nothing works.
Best I can conclude since my scope is showing no noise is that the power is way to weak.
The computer is sending and resending the signals but nothing is working.
I am buying two signal amplifiers in addition to the phase coupler and dryer booster I already have.
Coming to the conclusion that x10 does not work in houses with any decent amount of wire in it.
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Coming to the conclusion that x10 does not work in houses with any decent amount of wire in it.
A few of my customers have very large homes (over 10,000 sq.ft.), with two or more 200A panels, and they have been able to get their X10 systems to work fine. But it can take some effort, especially with the proliferation of noise sources and signal suckers in an average home today.
Jeff
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You plugged the CM15A interface into the same outlet as the computer. Was the computer isolated from the CM15A by a X10 filter? Computer power supplies are known trouble makers.
The Dryer Outlet Booster. Is it the Smarthome Repeater or Passive Coupler model?
The repeater version has been known to sometimes make signal firestorms on the power lines.
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You plugged the CM15A interface into the same outlet as the computer. Was the computer isolated from the CM15A by a X10 filter? Computer power supplies are known trouble makers.
The Dryer Outlet Booster. Is it the Smarthome Repeater or Passive Coupler model?
The repeater version has been known to sometimes make signal firestorms on the power lines.
Almost every X10 user has had the computer noise problem, I did. Every computer (including laptops) MUST have a filter on it. My wife's first laptop didn't put noise out, but laptops 2 and 3 did. We have 3 computers in the house and every one has a filter on it.
As to dryers, it depends on the maker, some do, lots don't. My dryer doesn't put noise out, every light in the cellar is X10 controlled and all work fine.
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Every computer (including laptops) MUST have a filter on it.
Oh gee whiz, I have five computers and none have filters. I have 80 plus X10 modules all working fine.
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Where are you located? I'm in Baltimore. MD and here you need a filter on computers if you have X10, otherwise anywhere you have a computer, X10 won't work on any circuit that has a computer on it.
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Where are you located? I'm in Baltimore. MD and here you need a filter on computers if you have X10, otherwise anywhere you have a computer, X10 won't work on any circuit that has a computer on it.
Dan, Location has nothing to do with it. I am sure there are other X10 users in Baltimore that does not have a filter on their computer.
Not EVERY CFL makes noise that effects X10. Not EVERY flat panel TV makes noise, Not EVERY computer makes noise. Statements like "X10 won't work on any circuit that has a computer on it." is simply not correct. Just because it works, or it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it is the same for all users.
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I have a 1.6 watt {yes 1.6 watt} CFL nightlight that is a big signal sucker as measured by my XTBM. ???
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Not EVERY computer makes noise.
I agree. I have 3 desktop PCS, an older laptop, a Mac Mini and an older Mac G4 with two LCD monitors (shared by multiple PCs and the Mini) as well as a few CFLS - none cause any X-10 problems. My Triplite UPS causes no ill effects either. There are no filters on any of the above.
I have a pre-ELK model of the ESM1 that shows 10Vpp from a TM751 as well as an RR501.
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Where are you located? I'm in Baltimore. MD and here you need a filter on computers if you have X10, otherwise anywhere you have a computer, X10 won't work on any circuit that has a computer on it.
I also live in MD (in the DC suburbs), and while some of my PCs are filtered, others are not. However, with my XTB-IIR, I might not even need the filters I have (but they were in place before I got the XTB-IIR).
As Dave said, it really isn't a matter of location. It is a matter of how noisy (or signal-sucky) the power supplies in your computers (or other electronics) are.
True, I'm in PEPCO's service area, but I don't think BG&E is is doing anything special that causes EVERY computer power supply in Baltimore to generate high amounts of noise. I think you just happen to have been "lucky" with the power supplies in the computers you bought.
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Here is my latest update
OK I have not been able to make X10 work since AUGUST and at best it was 90%. I had lights that would go on but not off and then some that would not work at all.
So I tried to turn off all circuits at the breaker then put them on one at a time. As I did and explained before it did not matter what order by the time 1/3rd of my home was on X10 quit.
Here is the twist. Could not sleep last night so what else can I do but try to debug X10. Went around the house and disconnected plug in the house including the refrigerators, washer, dryer, computers and and and. OK nothing on but the X100 computer and monitor.
There are a few switches and lights on the same circut and lo and behold they started working but the History screen never changed. It is green where I have outlets and red in every other square. Has been for some time.
Checked the other circuits and all but two units worked. Small maybe 22 second delay but it worked. Started to plug stuff in. Stuff still worked but it took longer and longer. Finally it got up to 6 seconds delay but most stuff worked. The two that never worked were two that used to be the only ones that worked before.
Finally all up and running I added the computers and televisions.
Dead slow.
Turned off X10 and rebooted.
Same thing.
Went out and did some Christmas Lights. Added all that crap to the line and came back in. Still Red and green but now its working similar to the way it did in August.
A few extra outlets are not working but in general mucc better than before.
I am totally confused on this one.
The response is about a second now and I am running more than I ever have.
Its definately not 100% I say about 80% but I do see signal across the coupler. The only thing I did and this was early on was added the second power boost to the system but that was right away.
Confused more now than ever.
I am also waiting for a refund on the one phase coupler they owe me.
w
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Checked the other circuits and all but two units worked. Small maybe 22 second delay but it worked. .....
.....Its definately not 100% I say about 80% but I do see signal across the coupler. The only thing I did and this was early on was added the second power boost to the system but that was right away.......
More 2 cents..... a comment an idea to try...
comment is that looking at this thread most computer comments have been about putting out noise. reason I have to have filters on all (5) around here is not for stopping noise but for stopping the signal sucking; no filter and x10 sig measures say 1v at the outlet; simple filter in line and sig goes up to 3v at the socket. with 3 buildings separated by 100's of feet and separate power drops into each, sig strength is a major problem here. I'd say I'm at 90% working but I must be diligent.... UPS on TV and associated equip gets same filter for same sig suck measurable problem. so i'd suggest using them rather than not if in doubt. can't hurt.
idea to try: sounds in your posts like you have TWO repeater things on your system - is it so? I have wracked my brain to try to understand how noise/sig_suckers can cause up to 22 sec delay from time you push button to result (turning on). Only thing I can think of is you have 2 repeaters and so they are playing tennis with your initial command, smacking it back and forth over the power line, exciting each other to repeat yet again and all these repeats are actually colliding on the power line and it takes 30 of these volleys before one gets thru - sometimes? Possible? You know the cm15 defaults to repeat (transceive) and if you added 1 or 2 others?? You might try turning all off but one - that's my idea.
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I have wracked my brain to try to understand how noise/sig_suckers can cause up to 22 sec delay from time you push button to result (turning on).
The CM15A has a "polite" transmitter, and it will delay sending a command if it believes there is already X10 activity on the powerline. Some noise can look like X10 traffic, which causes the delay in CM15A transmissions.
This crops up once and awhile with the XTB-IIR because its return signal amplifier can increase the level of in-band noise. That can cause a CM15A plugged into the X10 Boost input to delay its transmission, but it will work fine when plugged directly into the powerline. One customer recently reported this happened suddenly, and I suggested that he look for something new that was added to the powerline.
Jeff
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Ok its been a while since I posted but I got X10 to work much better. I spent a lot of time with a four trace scope and watched the signals.
To cut to the bottom line the CM15A as stated above waits until it sees no other activity. But in my case the signal is very very weak and I do not see anywhere near a volt on my line. The noise I do have is now noticeable because I am not looking at a 1-5V but I am looking at 15 to 75 MV. Line noise is about 20MV or less most of the time. I have a ton if wire in my home and lots of gadgets.
Only my slot machine and arcade games and the blower on my fireplace really screw things up. But the signal is low. I bought two power booster claiming to boost power by 10X. More like 50% than 1000% but it got most of the X10 signals above the noise levels. But that is really not the problem. Again weak signal.
So I simply moved the X10 CM15A closer to the circuit breaker box. It was 60 feet away. It is now 10 Feet away and I had to do a fairly long 15'ft usb cable to get the CM15A back to the first floor and it took a while to get that to happen with the holidays and all.
I bought a ton of filters and they are helpful in keeping spikes down but the basic line noise is still there. Wish the filters were a bit stronger.
Cannot talk scope results with X10 technicians because they have stated they haven't used a scope or at least the ones I talk to. Its always line noise as the catch all problem without explaining why. So here is the Why . As stated on many blogs the signal is weak and especially the smart meters on your house there is always going to be some inherent noise. I have tons of electric working at all times many computers (all on noise filters now based on this blog) and anything else I think may contribute to a problem. But again other than a major noisy item and I see few in my home and they are off most of the time just moving closer to the circuit breaker made the most difference in signal strength. ( I would recommend a power booster while minimal take what you can get.)
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Continuing on the previous post. I am looking at the circuitry in both the power booster and the filter and going to see if I can increase the power or filter capability. I asked if they had a better filter and they responded that they have 15 amp unit. Not looking for power capabilities looking for filter capabilities.
I have my system now working and I now can use it. Still not 100% but much much much better.
Also found out if you do new construction it does not have the childproof tamper and the inspector today rejected it so now I have to figure out how to get around that. Its the only thing that failed inspection. Go figure. In an existing home it is not required and is grandfathered in so most of you are fine but new construction depending on where you are you may wish to talk to the building permit dept before you install these in a new construction.
So bottom line I have my system working much better, power boosters helped, filters probably help on delay of operations definately don't hurt, biggest change is getting CM15A closest to circuit breaker box. There are some real noisy items like my slot machines and video games followed by the fireplace fan, the Panasonic Viera TV and then you are down to things like the computers which mine don't seem to be too bad and then general electric devices.
Hope this helped but seeing this stuff on a scope really changed the way I approached the problem. Again the signal is weak and that seems to be the biggest problem. Since moving the CM15A I have not had my lights gone wild any more.
Hope this helps smeone out there.
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couple comments/ideas fwiw....
if u want more filtering, why not try plugging a filter into a filter? 2 in series will double the filtering, 3 gives 3x..... at least u can test it. I have 4pc dual 4ft florescent lites in one garage and a single filter let me turn them ON but not off; dual filter and I can turn off also. there should be no downside to putting filters in series - just make sure still if u use xppf 5 amp models to not use on more than about 2.5a load to prevent a fire.
Jeff's XTB-II repeater DOES increase sig strength more than your experienced 50% from other brand.... I can watch a 500mv sig go to 7000mv (7v) consistently.