X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rocket J Squirrel on May 08, 2012, 11:49:07 PM
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I have used X10-based controls in two homes for the last 20 years or so. At the time of my last move in 1999, I wasn't aware of anything better and replaced virtually every light switch with X10 or Leviton PLC switches.
I will be moving again in a few months, into a large home with 2 breaker panels and no home automation pre-installed.
Forgive me for asking a short question which probably has some long answers: what's the current thinking on HA systems which are easier to use and more reliable than X10-style PLC systems?
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Forgive me for asking a short question which probably has some long answers: what's the current thinking on HA systems which are easier to use and more reliable than X10-style PLC systems?
Stricktly from a "last man standing" standpoint, I think Z-Wave will be the winner simply because it has far more manufacturer adopters than ZigBee, UPB, Insteon, etc. But Z-Wave is not problem free either.
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What's a post X10 world? Even if X10 stopped making x10, I'd bet there would still be other companies out there making the products.
Seems to me that X10 (the company) had one little hiccup, and the whole world wants to jump ship on the mother of all HA protocols. In turn, places like SmartLabs can all sell us on much more expensive products.
Read what Dave W said in his above post. No HA is without faults. Fortunately, us x10 users have Jeff Volp who designs and sells all kind of gizmos that make x10 as reliable as it was before cheap switching power supplies and other x10 problem causers. Just read about Volp's products carefully, as each work with a different problem. For most of us, the XTB-IIR repeater/coupler is enough to solve the problems and then some.
Even on a budget, filters can still be found relatively cheap. If you can track down the culprit, filters work wonders.
I just can't believe that someone would call x10 dead. For a young geezer like myself, x10 will always be there for me.
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My new 4800 square foot single story house will be a post X10 world. I am having reliability problems in my current 2-story 2500 sf house, both from hardware and power line issues. Each new piece of electronics - and we have many more since the early X10 days - seems to either add noise or suck signals. The old X10 Brand switches are worn out. Either the target device fails to turn on or several nearby devices turn on along with it.
I have been using X10 since 1988 or so, and it just isn't holding up for me. I'm tired of debugging it. If it continues to work well for you, Knightrider, great, you're lucky.
Thanks, Dave, for the constructive reply about Z-Wave.
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Thanks, Dave, for the constructive reply about Z-Wave.
'welcome.
But Z-Wave will probably be five times or more the cost of X10. Before abandoning X10 completely, you might invest in a XTBIIR coupler repeater, especially if you have many X10 modules.. There are many, many, X10 users who give total credit to the XTBIIR for making their system 99% reliable. $0.02
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Since the some of the latest Insteon modules have dropped X10 support completely.
If you wanted to convert slowly. Good chance some would not work with X10 controllers.
Also Insteon maybe somewhat more tolerant of power line noise than X10. It still can have issues. Along with power line filters.
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... Also Insteon maybe somewhat more tolerant of power line noise than X10. It still can have issues...
Actually, the Insteon modules I have were MORE affected by my noise problem (neighbor's CFL - I'm sure you know the story by now ;) ) that my X10 modules were.
Of course, mine are an older revision that still supported X10 commands, it might be different with the new ones that don't have X10 support.
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Actually, the Insteon modules I have were MORE affected by my noise problem (neighbor's CFL - I'm sure you know the story by now ;) ) that my X10 modules were.
The only most logical explanation is that the noise was very low amplitude. Insteon has much greater sensitivity (10mV) than X10 so a very low level noise component near the Insteon frequency (131.65kHz) might have caused Insteon problems yet be missed by less sensitive X10 modules which tend to be affected by 75kHz-200kHz but usually need ~100mV minimum.
In general, greater sensitivity is a plus.
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In reply to the original question...
There are a lot of major players that are (once again) showing an interest in HA. This article...
- http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/16/electric-imp-announces-new-home-automation-toolkit-for-gadget-makers/
lists a few and some of the links in the article refer to still more. It remains to be seen whether any of them have a Jetsonesque killer application or whether all this will just lead to further fragmentation of the market. There have been attempts to create a unifying standard (e.g. HomePlug Command & Control) that went nowhere.
There are also several premium systems (hardwired, wireless, hardwired & wireless) available. Some (e.g. LiteTouch, Centralite) predate X10. I have a partial list on my website.
- http://davehouston.org/hardwire.htm
And, the Wikipedia page for Insteon has links to a few more possibilities in the See also section.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INSTEON#X10_compatibility
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Actually, the Insteon modules I have were MORE affected by my noise problem (neighbor's CFL - I'm sure you know the story by now ;) ) that my X10 modules were.
The only most logical explanation is that the noise was very low amplitude. Insteon has much greater sensitivity (10mV) than X10 so a very low level noise component near the Insteon frequency (131.65kHz) might have caused Insteon problems yet be missed by less sensitive X10 modules which tend to be affected by 75kHz-200kHz but usually need ~100mV minimum.
In general, greater sensitivity is a plus.
Actually, it was the X10 signalling that was affected by the noise and not working. I wasn't using the Insteon signalling (I don't have any Insteon controllers).
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Actually, the Insteon modules I have were MORE affected by my noise problem (neighbor's CFL - I'm sure you know the story by now ;) ) that my X10 modules were.
The only most logical explanation is that the noise was very low amplitude. Insteon has much greater sensitivity (10mV) than X10 so a very low level noise component near the Insteon frequency (131.65kHz) might have caused Insteon problems yet be missed by less sensitive X10 modules which tend to be affected by 75kHz-200kHz but usually need ~100mV minimum.
In general, greater sensitivity is a plus.
Actually, it was the X10 signalling that was affected by the noise and not working. I wasn't using the Insteon signalling (I don't have any Insteon controllers).
Then your assertion is extremely misleading and you should stop making it without clarifying that it was the X10 signals that were compromised. But, it is still probable that, even in X10 mode, the Smarthome modules are more sensitive than X10 modules and that my supposition that it was a low level noise signal still applies.
What were the problems you saw?
A couple of people who experienced the smart meter induced random events found that Smarthome modules (one Insteon/X10, one X10 only but possibly just relabeled) did not see problems with these modules set to the same address as the affected X10 switches.
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Actually, the Insteon modules I have were MORE affected by my noise problem (neighbor's CFL - I'm sure you know the story by now ;) ) that my X10 modules were.
The only most logical explanation is that the noise was very low amplitude. Insteon has much greater sensitivity (10mV) than X10 so a very low level noise component near the Insteon frequency (131.65kHz) might have caused Insteon problems yet be missed by less sensitive X10 modules which tend to be affected by 75kHz-200kHz but usually need ~100mV minimum.
In general, greater sensitivity is a plus.
Actually, it was the X10 signalling that was affected by the noise and not working. I wasn't using the Insteon signalling (I don't have any Insteon controllers).
Then your assertion is extremely misleading and you should stop making it without clarifying that it was the X10 signals that were compromised. But, it is still probable that, even in X10 mode, the Smarthome modules are more sensitive than X10 modules and that my supposition that it was a low level noise signal still applies.
What were the problems you saw?
A couple of people who experienced the smart meter induced random events found that Smarthome modules (one Insteon/X10, one X10 only but possibly just relabeled) did not see problems with these modules set to the same address as the affected X10 switches.
What problems did I see? My neighbor's noisy CFL completely stopped three of my four Insteon switches from working in X10 mode. "Regular" x10 modules on the same circuits, both closer to and further from the noise, worked fine (the fourth one was on a different phase, and not affected by the noise).
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What problems did I see? My neighbor's noisy CFL completely stopped three of my four Insteon switches from working in X10 mode. "Regular" x10 modules on the same circuits, both closer to and further from the noise, worked fine (the fourth one was on a different phase, and not affected by the noise).
Since the Min Receive Level: 10 mV is quoted for the Power line physical layer it also applies for their X10 circuitry, so the most logical explanation is still that the noise was very low amplitude - below the minimum receive level of your standard X10 devices.
I've yet to see reports where any Insteon system was affected by the smart meters.
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I have not seen any smart meter problems with Insteon so far.
I have seen CFLs reported to effect Insteon signals.
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What problems did I see? My neighbor's noisy CFL completely stopped three of my four Insteon switches from working in X10 mode. "Regular" x10 modules on the same circuits, both closer to and further from the noise, worked fine (the fourth one was on a different phase, and not affected by the noise).
Since the Min Receive Level: 10 mV is quoted for the Power line physical layer it also applies for their X10 circuitry, so the most logical explanation is still that the noise was very low amplitude - below the minimum receive level of your standard X10 devices.
I've yet to see reports where any Insteon system was affected by the smart meters.
I never said this was a smart meter problem. I don't have a smart meter. It was a failing CFL bulb problem.
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I never said this was a smart meter problem. I don't have a smart meter. It was a failing CFL bulb problem.
Nor have I said it was related to Smart Meters. I was merely pointing out that The Smarthome made devices seem immune to those random event problems whether in Insteon or X-10 mode.
And, it's likely that the offending CFLs would also have blocked Insteon signals had you been using that protocol as Insteon has problems with noise similar to those seen with X-10. It might be worthwhile to test Smarthome made devices against noise in the 75-200kHz range. I suspect they will be bothered by a much narrower band than X-10 made devices, especially in Insteon mode.
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I think we've gotten a little off-topic from the original question about other home-automation systems as alternatives to X10. Everyone will have a different experience, even with the same technologies. I have a neighbor up the block (different pole transformer, though) who had horrible luck with his X10 system, and decided to switch over to Insteon a few years ago. He had a difficult time getting it set up initially, because he needed to find the right combination of outlets for the wireless bridge modules to be effective as a phase-coupling pair. Once he got that straightened out, however, he has had a very reliable system. He isn't all that thrilled with the Insteon software, but the signals work just fine.
I also have had a number of problems with my X10 system over the 8 years since we moved into this house, but I decided to stick with it and make an effort to fix it (a number of well-placed filters, and Jeff Volp's XTB-IIR, were a huge help in my case).
My point is, every installation is different, so there is no one correct answer for everyone.
The right system for anyone is the system that works best for them.
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Basically, there are power line based controllers and there are RF based controllers. The power line controllers are easy to be inteferenced by noisy CFLs, or other noise source. For example, one new projector purchased from Costco caused 1/3 of my X10 devices not working. Once I replaced that with a different brand, everyting works again. I am sure RF based controller having different noise problems. Z-Wave is probably the best in RF based controllers. However, if you don't have enough Z-Wave based devices in your home, Z-Wave RF signal may not propagate to the far corner of your home.
To be fair, X10 based controller works well, if you could identify the noise source and filter it out. Anyone using X10 based HA control must make sure the incoming power line is filtered and install a good signal bridge between phases. Since I have a good power line filter and active bridge installed on my incoming power panel, I have X10 based working well over 10 years. I plan to keep using it, as long as I can get X10 modules.
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Z-Wave is probably the best in RF based controllers. However, if you don't have enough Z-Wave based devices in your home, Z-Wave RF signal may not propagate to the far corner of your home.
I have not kept up with any changes that may have been made to Z-Wave since its introduction but the original system had a finite number of hops and each device had a limited range (by design). While it depends on the specifics (e.g. just how far is the far corner), there was a real probability that you could run out of hops before you run out of real estate, making for a corner too far no matter the number of devices. There was also a problem with removing a failed device from the system route map (but it's been too long for me to recall specifics).
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So Z-Wave has it's share of problems also. I feel better about not jumping on the Z-Wave band wagon.
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I remember looking at a GE ZWave devices manual. It had a chart of distances with varied things like line of sight or wall between devices and metal or plastic electrical boxes.
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Thanks, Dave, for the constructive reply about Z-Wave.
'welcome.
But Z-Wave will probably be five times or more the cost of X10. Before abandoning X10 completely, you might invest in a XTBIIR coupler repeater, especially if you have many X10 modules.. There are many, many, X10 users who give total credit to the XTBIIR for making their system 99% reliable. $0.02
I consider myself a one time relatively tech savvy x-10 user. But it's been too many years now for me to keep my x-10 working very well.
I've been using it for over 20 years. Have had problems but seemed to work them out. Now it works sometimes. Some codes don't work at all except by the switch itself.
Over the years I've installed the capacitor to bridge the two phases. Then I used that plug in device on the dryer to do the same.
Then I recently tried a XPCR phase coupler/repeater the other day with no improvement. I even tried the smarthome software but it was a bit much too much to program.
I can't imagine trying to go through the whole house trouble shooting by unplugging, TVs, computers, chargers, etc one by one etc.
I see that you mentioned the XTBIIR coupler repeater as a likely solution.
Please tell me about it. Is it expensive, hard to install etc?
I really would like my Activehome Pro to work properly like it did not so terribly long ago.
Please advise.
Tim fm CT
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JV Digital Engineering make the XTB-IIR and is blasts a very powerfull X10 signal back on the power lines and respsects Insteon. Yes I am a mixed protocol system user and have one myself.
http://jvde.us//xtb/XTB-IIR_description.htm
I also have one of their X10 test meters. XTBM
http://jvde.us/xtb/XTBM_description.htm
If things are deteriorating that much. You may still have to do some troubleshooting. The XTB-IIR is great but a real severe signal sucker or noise maker may still be a problem.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
http://www.davehouston.net/
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I HIGHLY recommend the XTBM for hunting down signal suckers and noise makers.
I improved my X10 system from about 60% to 99% and my father's X10 from 40% to 99% also, by setting up a repeating macro in AHP and scouting the house with the XTBM.
I even found his refrigerator to be a HUGE signal sucker, and the cause of about half of the problems!!!!
Plugged the fridge into an XPPF (5 amp filter), (the fridge really only draws less than 3 amps, and we measured the power with a Kill-a-watt, and monitored the temperature), and BINGO!!! instant improvement!
There were a few other things that sucked signal... his UPS for the computer, one of his stereos, but these were somewhat minor, but still sucked signal.
I have an infocus SP-4805 (Costco special) projector that really sucks signal AND is a noise generator. XPPF solved that!
My VCR's/DVD players/UPSs/tube tv were signal suckers.... NO MORE with the filters.
NOW we both have a very reliable system!
All it took was a little time and the XTBM and my investment was well worth it.
So it CAN be done!
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I reviewed that some time ago.... and even made a YouTube Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FijFRdxaos&feature=plcp
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I HIGHLY recommend the XTBM for hunting down signal suckers and noise makers.
I have been working on a Pro version with some new features:
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=23636.msg152692#msg152692
It should be available in a couple of months.
Jeff