X10 Community Forum
📸Cameras & Camera Software => Camera General Discussion => Topic started by: SkunkBayWeather on October 15, 2012, 09:15:25 PM
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I operate a weather/webcam site and have used a single x-10 pan/tilt head for over a year. I use a HD cam that is controlled by it's own software, so I am only using the pan/tilt function. I use the CR14A remote control and the XM14A power supply for the pan/tilt. I have added a second cam and purchased a second pan/tilt. I would like to control each head independently. My understanding was that all I needed was TM751 transceiver to accomplish this. I set the TM751 to House Code A, the CR14A to House Code A and the pan tilts to House Code A and units 1 and 2. I programmed to C1 and C2. I was still not able to get them to operate independently. I have tried all sorts of combinations with no luck. I called tech support this morning and was told I had to purchase Active Home Pro. I really don't think she understood what I was trying to accomplish, so I am hesitant to take her word for it. Looking at the documentation I haven't seen anything that specifically addresses what I am trying to do. Does anybody here know exactly what I may need? One more note.... When I plugged in the TM751 for the first time there was a spark and a snap. I am not sure the TM751 is working. Tech support dismissed this....
Thank You
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You should be able to control up to 4 cameras with a single CR14A. There's no need for a TM751.
- http://www.thex10shop.com/product/x10-cr14a-scanpad-ninja-pan-tilt-remote-controll
Or 16 with the CR13A.
- http://www.thex10shop.com/product/x10-cr13a-scanpower-16-unit-camera-remote-control
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I know I should be able to control up to 4 devices. That is why I am asking for help. I have tried several combinations with no luck. Any other thoughts?
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Part of the problem maybe the XM14A is turned On and Off when you select the camera by a power line signal but the Pan and Tilt function's are RF direct from the remote to the base.
That is why we sometimes see a question on why two Ninjas are both moving. Their power supplies didn't switch Off correctly as they default to On.
So you will need a transceiver to put the CR14As signal on the power line to switch the power supplies. An X10 controller could also be used. That maybe why X10 support suggested AHP. The CM15A {when re released shortly} can send power line signals to control the power supplies and an RF signal to the pan and tilt base.
In a single camera setup the supply defaults to On and no power line signals are needed to switch them Off.
So the CR14As RF has to reach the Ninja base to pan and tilt and has to reach the transceiver to send the On to the selected camera and the rest automatically go Off. The power line signal from the transceiver also has to reach the Ninjas power supplies to switch them On and Off.
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http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Cameras
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Troubleshooting_Ninja_Base_Camera_Switching
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The spark you saw when you plugged the TM751 in may have been normal. If you happened to connect at the peak of the AC waveform and the power supply needed to charge its capacitors.
Is your TM751 one with the pass through outlet {Sticker over where the manual On and Off button was} or has the internal On Off Switched outlet on the bottom? If it has the switch in it and you are using A1. It should go On and Off what a RF command from a remote to A1.
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You maybe able to do a few tests.
Power up both Ninja Bases.
Since they default to On. Without using a C Camera select button. See if both bases Pan and Tilt.
If either one does not. The RF command from the remote is not reaching the base.
Then select C1. Try to Pan and Tilt. If C2 also moves the power line commands are not reaching the C2 cameras base power supply.
Then try C2. C1 should not move and C2 should. If both move the power line signal is not reaching the C1 camera.
Power Line troubleshooting maybe needed.
Selection information.
The cameras and Ninja bases use addressable power supplies.
Same House Code and Unit Codes in groups of four. 1-4,5-8,9-12 and 13-16
Turn any Unit Code in a group On with a power line command. The other three go Off with no added commands needed.
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Thank you SO much for all your information Brian. I have tried all the suggestions you made in your last post, but when I get home later today I'll methodically run through each test you have suggested. I may have missed one combination.... I'm 60 years old and Swedish... That gives me an excuse if I missed something earlier.... >! As far power line commands, doesn't that require the TM751?
Thanks again. Just for reference, my site is www.skunkbayweather.com (http://www.skunkbayweather.com). We have quite a view and the ability to point and zoom with 2 HD cams at different targets is a great tool.
Greg
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Sorry if my response was not too clear on that.
Yes my reference to a transceiver was the TM751 or any other X10 device that can do it.
Another test that maybe slightly easier. Power up both Ninjas and use the remote to send a C3 or C4 Off. That should make both the cameras on C1 Button {Address A1} and C2 Button {Address A2} go off and neither would pan and tilt if they received the power line commands.
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Looked at your web site. >! #:)
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Thanks Brian. Coincidently we had a fair thunderstorm last night. My time lapses made the cover of the local ABC News affiliate. Here is the article. http://www.komonews.com/weather/blogs/scott/Lightning-brightens-the-stormy-skies-over-Hansville-174385131.html (http://www.komonews.com/weather/blogs/scott/Lightning-brightens-the-stormy-skies-over-Hansville-174385131.html)
Here is one example of what I intend to do with two pan/tilts. On the 4th of July there is a fireworks show on each side of Double Bluff on Whidbey Island. I would like to be able to point one cam into Mutiny Bay and the other in to Useless Bay to capture both shows at the same time. (A little friendly competition between bays... :) )This is 9-10 miles away and requires some fine tuning to dial it in. The current pan/tilt I was using last summer worked great. Here is what that looked like:http://www.komonews.com/home/video/161465625.html (http://www.komonews.com/home/video/161465625.html)
One more question.... What package would be needed to operate the pan/tilts from my computer. Is this the Active Pro Home? Does the USB device somehow access the power line signal? ??? I can connect remotely now and it would be nice to be able to point the cams from off site.
Thanks,
Greg
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I don't have much experience with X10 software and cameras.
If AHP with a added plug in is the best I can't say.
If you do decide to go with AHP. I personally would wait a few weeks until the promised CM15A Interface is again being sold.
The CM15K is a CM19A Interface with a TM751. To take the RF the CM19A sends to the power lines.
CM15A has both a Powerline Receiver and Transmitter in it. Along with an RF Transmitter and receiver.
The CM15K Kit is very limited. No way to receive power line signals and has to depend on a TM751 for sending power line signals.
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Good information. Thanks Brian.
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Here is what I have done tonight:
1. Plug in power supply 1 in to surge protector set at house code 1, unit 1
2. Test the unit - works perfectly
3. Plug in TM751A to same surge protector. Unit 1 still works perfectly.
4. Plug in power supply 2 in to same surge protector set at house code 1, unit 2.
5. Press C1 and both units move together
6. Press C2 and both units move together
Logic would indicate that the TM751A is not doing a thing. In other words, the spark and snap I heard when I plugged it in for the first did mean it was defective...
Any other thoughts? I am convinced the TM751A was bad out of the box. After talking with "tech support" I am concerned about any return on this item. It was only $17 and in my opinion is not worth the postage to return. However, I don't want to just start throwing money at this thing. It looks like a great concept and product and I would really like to get it working.
Greg
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OH. Surge Suppressor.
If it has a power line filter in it. Some do, some don't.
It will absorb X10 signals like noise and many times will kill an X10 installation.
Though in the same one. I am not sure if it could absorb that much, but you may want to try with out it.
Also try gently rotating the House and Unit Dial on all the units. Occasionally we see a dirty one show being set to one address and actually be on another one.
Your TM751 doesn't have the internal relay?
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Brian, once again thank you SO much for taking the time to help me with this. I really appreciate it. Sorry I didn't answer the question about the TM751 earlier. It is the new version without the on/off button. It has the x10 label where it used to be. This morning I did the same exercise after rotating the dials and everything is plugged into wall outlets that are on the same circuit. I had the same exact results. They both move together whether I chose C1,2,3 or 4. This really has me convinced that there is no signal getting to the power supplies via the house wiring.... In other words, through the process of elimination, it has to be the TM751 that has the problem. I think I need to call tech support again and see if I can get a replacement unless anybody has another idea....
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It does seem like it is pointing to the TM751.
If yours did have the internal switch. You could have partially tested it by sending the A1 On to it and see if it want On.
Reason I asked about the relay. Some of the independent automation dealers have the latest TM751C that has the internal switch again.
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I contacted the dealer and they are sending a replacement with a postage paid return box. I'd say that's pretty good customer service! I'll let you know what happens when I get the new transceiver.
Greg
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Sounds like a good way to go.
Hope the new one corrects the problem.
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I received my replacement TM751 last night…. Same results. What a disappointment. So, as I was driving in to work this morning I may have figured something out. I may have misinterpreted the function of these devices from the beginning.
My interpretation was that you could operate up to 4 pan/tilt heads independently from 1 remote. Set the house code the same on all devices and then each device would work independently with 4 preset locations for each. House code A – channels 1-4.
Could it be that the design is you can operate up to 4 cameras on one remote… NOT pan/tilt heads. The heads will move simultaneously and the remote will only turn the cameras off and on. There are a total of 4 presets. So, say I want camera 2, if I press C2 it will turn off all the cameras and turn on C2. Then you chose which preset position you would like out of the 4 available. All the pan/tilts would move simultaneously and it would not matter because you are only looking at one cam at a time…. Could this new interpretation be right?
If so, I now have two TM751 transmitters at home and two remotes. Before I return the other TM751 I thought I would try plugging in both. One on House code A and the other on House code B. Set one remote to House code A and the other on B. Could this strategy give me the independent movement I am looking for? If it works, I’ll just contact the dealer and buy the one they just sent me.
Sorry for the long winded post, but I am trying to understand the logic and function of these devices. On paper this looks like an exciting technology that I’d like to learn more about.
Thanks again,
Greg
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Could it be that the design is you can operate up to 4 cameras on one remote… NOT pan/tilt heads. The heads will move simultaneously and the remote will only turn the cameras off and on. There are a total of 4 presets. So, say I want camera 2, if I press C2 it will turn off all the cameras and turn on C2. Then you chose which preset position you would like out of the 4 available. All the pan/tilts would move simultaneously and it would not matter because you are only looking at one cam at a time…. Could this new interpretation be right?
The addressable power supply, powers the Ninja and the camera, so when one camera is turned ON the other three cameras and the Ninjas should power down. Could you have an electrical noise problem where the powerline control signal from the TM751 isn't getting to all the camera addressable power supplies?
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dave w, Beat me in the typing. So some of this maybe a rehash. ;D
No you should be able to independently use four Pan and Tilt Bases.
The addressable power supply connected to the base and then the pig tail wire from the base to the camera. Should go On and Off with the power line commands. Turning both the Base and Camera On and Off.
When Off the base should not respond to the remote and when On it should respond to the base.
If lets say all four in the group are powered up and by default are On. All four would then pan and tilt until one is turned On and the other three go Off automatically. If power line signals are not received by a bases supply. It is possible that one would not go Off and the one turned On. Both would then move.
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Thanks Dave & Brian. Any ideas how I could test for noise? And just to make sure I understand this:
1. Set remote, transmitter, and both pan/tilts to House Code A.
2. Set one of the pan/tilts to Device 1 and the other to Device 2.
3. Power it all up and if I use the remote they should both move together.
4. When I hit C1 it should turn Device 2 off and Device 1 will work independently.
5. When I hit C2 it should turn Device 1 off and Device 2 will work independently.
Could there be a conflict with the RF frequency between the remote and transmitter? Does anybody know the frequency? The room I am testing in has a Davis wireless console, wireless router and cordless phone base station very close.
Thank you again for all your help!
Greg
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Sounds correct to me.
Hit C3 or C4 and both should go Off.
310MHz from the remote to the TM751 for power line control and also to the pan and tilt bases.
120KHz Power Line Signals from the TM751 to the Pan and Tilt bases power supplies.
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Well... that RF looks to be out there on it's own... I'll try moving all the devices around the house and maybe over to my neighbors house as well.
Thanks,
Greg
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OK... I'm thinkin'.... Very dangerous for an old Swede -:) .... Isn't one of the primary sources of noisy power lines flourescent lighting? It may be time to swap out the aging fixture in my computer room.
Greg
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I don't think the remote remembers if you changed the C1-C4 buttons to a different group of four. When you change batteries. You may wan to remove the batteries for a short time and see if anything changes.
Page 16 of the P&T manual shows how it could be changed to 5-8,9-12 or 13-16. Maybe you could verify it is on 1-4.
Helpful troubleshooting information:
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
Lots of varied date on all types of automation.
http://www.davehouston.net/
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Isn't one of the primary sources of noisy power lines flourescent lighting?
Old style tube (or ring) fluorescents have not caused much X10 interference. It's the newer CFLs with switching power supplies (of dubious provenance) that tend to become a problem. I have seen a 60 year old fluorescent put an inductive spike on the line (and with a visible spark at the switch) when turned off (which bothered one X10 module but not others) but have never heard of any outputting steady noise.
It is probably worth investing in a lamp module that you can plug in next to and set to the same address as a power supply to see whether the TM751 PLC signal is reaching the power supply.
- http://www.thex10shop.com/product/x10-powerhouse-lm465-300-watt-soft-start-home-automation-lamp-module
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You guys are a wealth of knowledge! You just filled up my evening!
Greg
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Did a short test on a CR14A.
I did revert back to Units 1-4 if you removed the batteries and then reinstalled them..
The Lamp Module Test may show added information.
Just that the CR14A only sends an On to each unit and the lamp module is not like a camera supply. You would only be able to turn it On.
You can then unplug it for a short time and it should be Off again when plugged back in.
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Quick update.... Went home with the flu Wednesday afternoon.... I'll start playing with this over the weekend.... Just wanted you to know I wasn't ignoring all your suggestions....
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Sorry to read you have the Flu.
No rush on tests. When you have a chance.
I may also be absent in a few days. Looks like hurricane Sandy will effect my life Monday and Tuesday.
If it goes a bit north of its presently predicted path. CT will again be in the bulls eye. Not that the outer wind and rain bands wouldn't be enough if it says to the south.
Gee just a year ago it was the Halloween Ice Storm and four days with no power. That was preceded a month or so earlier by hurricane Irene and a week with no power.
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Hey.... As you know.... You are talking to a weather guy.... Keep me posted on how you are doing back there. Our local weather blogs and news are full of speculation about this event. It's not Sandy any more.... It's Frankenstorm.....
Greg
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Brian,
I thought you might enjoy these links. Your grief is big news around here. Cliff Mass is the local "go to guy" for all weather events. He is one of the directors of the University of Washington Department of Atmospheric Sciences. Scott Sistek is a very talented blogger/meteorologist for KOMO-ABC. I share content from my site with both of them on a regular basis ... (So that's why I want to get this X10 stuff going! ).... ;D
Cliff Mass: http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-more-perfect-storm-will-strike.html (http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-more-perfect-storm-will-strike.html)
Scott Sistek: http://www.komonews.com/weather/blogs/scott/Seattles-showers-Friday-may-eventually-influence-Frankenstorm-next-week-175986491.html (http://www.komonews.com/weather/blogs/scott/Seattles-showers-Friday-may-eventually-influence-Frankenstorm-next-week-175986491.html)
Greg
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Thanks for the links.
It does look like it is going to be a storm for weather enthusiasts and weather forcasters to remember.
We have a very avid weather enthusiast, weatherman and WestCon Professor on our local TV station. Dr. Mel was known by many around the country.
Reverse 911 just gave me more details. Like expect hurricane winds starting around Midnight tonight and extended length power outages.
I see on the west coast they where feeling a Earthquake.
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Yes, there was an earthquake up on the north end of Queen Charlotte. A little too far away for us to feel it. I wish you well through this storm. I am trying to stay abreast of it as much as I can. I have 3 links on my page. NOAA Hurricane Center, NOAA Animated Satellite (very cool) and I put together a site with multiple HD webcams on it. www.SkunkBayWeather.com (http://www.SkunkBayWeather.com)
It is at the top of the news back here.
Be Safe!
Greg
PS. I'm going to go scratch my head some more with these pan/tilts now... B:(
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Have fun with your tests.
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Well.... Now I think I have two problems. I have one working correctly if all devices are plugged into the same outlet. The other turns on all 4 cam positions. The problem follows the power supply if I switch it from head to head, so this seems to point at an XM14A problem.
Then if I plug the TM751 into another outlet, both turn together.... I suppose this is noise in the house circuit.
So.... I may have a bad power supply and a noisy house circuit.... B:( Looks like I have more reading ahead of me. The XM14A is an easy replacement. The noise in the house circuit could be a deal breaker..... :(
Greg
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I am pretty confident I have found a solution >!. After reading up on noise generators and signal signal suckers I knew I was doomed.... My house is noisier than the 12th man at the Seahawks Centurylink Field! ::) I started by counting UPS's... I got to 6 and stopped..... Then it dawned on me. The remote RF signal from the CR14A reaches the mounting location at the other end of my house. I used it for over a year and it worked fine. I can plug the TM751 and the XM14A into the same outlet. I just tested this and it works... Except the one with the suspect power supply. So... I am going to order a new power supply and cross my fingers. This is not an exotic installation by any means. Any problems with this diagnosis and solution?
Greg
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I hope all is well for folks here on the east coast. It's a conundrum for weather nuts like myself. I love watching the power of nature and I hate watching the destruction it causes in peoples lives.....
Just a quick update. After searching for a new power supply (XM14A) I found they were nonexistent. So, I went ahead and bought another whole unit. For 45 bucks.... I should have done this a long time ago.... I'll report back when I get the new unit. I have a feeling that a LOT of diagnostic brain cells were wasted on a simple power supply....
Greg
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So.... Here is what I have B:( B:( B:( With 3 full units I can test easily and diagnose through the process of elimination.
1. My old pan/tilt head had a power supply that does not recognize house current and turns regardless of which cam is chosen on the remote.
2. The Older/New pan tilt head (I received about a month ago) functions perfectly as long as all devices are plugged in to the same outlet.
3. The Pan/Tilt that I received today obviously was used with the house code set at I and unit set at 8.... It does not work... period. It will not move the pan/tilt head except it will center at power up. I tried the power supply on all three pan/tilts and remotes set at house code A device 1 with power cycles in between.
My patience is wearing thin.... I'll contact the dealer again and see if I can just get an XM14A power supply. I am reluctant to send the whole thing back because the pan/tilt functions.
Greg
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If the one month old one will switch On and Off with the TM751 in the same outlet but not in other locations. Maybe a power line issue.
Original not powering On and Off does sound defective and before you got more Ninjas. You never would have noticed it.
If the third one only centers and does nothing else. I also agree it is defective.
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Yup... If I could get two more functioning XM14A's I think I would have 3 functioning Pan/Tilts as long as they are all plugged into the same outlet. I contacted the dealer last night and they are already shipping a new one. I think they are sending the whole package. So, if that works, I'll try to find one more XM14A.
Thanks again Brian. Was Sandy gentle on you?
Greg
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Compared to many others here in CT. and along the East Coast. Sandy was gentle for me and my relatives.
No power from 6:00 PM on Monday to 10:30 AM today.
No damage to my home. Just extra stuff all over the yard.
I finally got online as the cable is still out.
I can not believe what I saw in other states. I have relatives in New Jersey but finally got information. That where OK.
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Glad you're OK Brian. The news from back there is very depressing.... Too many lives permanently impacted.... Very sad.
Back to my "trivial" problems by comparison.... I have done some more research this morning trying to find another XM14A.... Ouch... This whole unit has been discontinued. I can't find just the power supply. No wonder the one i received yesterday looked used. I think they are probably piecing these things together. Are there any reliable sources for an XM14A? I have struck out.....
Greg
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Unfortunately. It does look like the Ninja P&T is discontinued.
The X10Shop that sometimes still has items. Has the XM14A as out of stock and discontinued by X10. ???
They have around two web pages of discontinued X10 and X10Pro devices.
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Not that I panic or anything like that..... I just bought a used XM14A off Ebay for $12.99 free shipping.... For $13 it's worth trying.... I'd like to have a spare.
Greg
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.... Sandy was gentle for me and my relatives.
Glad your OK. I did 8 days without power a few years ago... the weather was mild... and I have a generator and camping/cooking stuff. But it still sucked.
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So.... To stay on topic for a brief moment.... We had pretty good blow here yesterday (gusts to 44) and lost power for 12 hours. We have a Honda EM7000is generator and a transfer switch in the house so we can power all the basic needs.... (like the computers and home theater... 8) ) The whole day we were saying... We are so blessed! Think of all the people on the East coast. This was one of the first power outages that did not bother my wife. Our thoughts and prayers are with all those who are suffering!
So.... Back on the original topic..... YAHOO! >! I received my replacement pan/tilt from the dealer and IT worked perfectly. I received the used power supply I bought on Ebay and IT worked perfectly with my original pan/tilt. So now I have 3 functioning pan/tilts.... :)% This whole thread would have been less than a page if my original power supply was good.... B:(
Brian and Dave, I REALLY appreciate all the help (and patience) you have given me through this "experience". You spent a lot of time with someone you have never met. That says a LOT about your character. If you were closer.... I'd buy ya' a beer! >!
Thanks again,
Greg
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I am glad you found the problems and now have three completely functioning Ninjas. :)%
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Uhmmm... Brian.... Please don't go away.... Someday soon I'd like to figure out how to control these pan/tilts from my computer.... ;D
Thought I'd share this. Today we had an incredible sunset and if I had the pan/tilts installed I could have aligned the two images perfectly (and get the eaves on the right out of the way...) I hope to get it done this weekend. The exposure will always be an issue because it is driven by the center of each image. In this case, the centers are about 20 miles apart..... This is a 1080p video. So, you can change the settings to 1080p and full screen. It is FAR from perfect, but you'll get the idea of what I want to be able to accomplish. http://youtu.be/Rlb5yaaUgb8?hd=1 (http://youtu.be/Rlb5yaaUgb8?hd=1)
Thanks again,
Greg