X10 Community Forum
🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Topic started by: rbarton on December 29, 2014, 09:18:29 PM
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Update: Just realized I am able to turn on/off a lamp plugged directly into the TM751 transceiver, but the same lamp will not turn on/off from any SR227 wall receptacles. Not sure if that will spark any additional insight, but fingers crossed!!!
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First, a big THANK YOU to all, and especially Tuicemen, for the wealth of information you have shared on this forum!!! :)% I read through many of the forum topics and was able to re-install AHP on a new PC (Win 8.1). I've also moved/reconnected the CM15A to the new PC but I am still experiencing some issues and am not sure where to start troubleshooting...
Background: I setup & registered AHP in 2009 with a CM15A and mostly wall switches and receptacles, some lamp modules and a transceiver...and EVERYTHING worked for a few years without any issues. Over the past couple of years, I've slowly lost all functionality. First, the remotes stopped working, then AHP lost ability to control "some" of the switches and receptacles, now EVERYTHING has stopped working! I was suspicious that the issue was with an old XP-upgraded-to-Win7-very-limited-RAM netbook I had been using to run AHP and/or the physical receptacle I had the CM15A plugged into. I would notice that my lights were not turning on/off per the AHP timers and when I went to investigate, I would find the old netbook in a BSOD state. Once netbook was rebooted & CM15A cleared/re-downloaded, my lights would begin operating per the timers again. Within the past month though, my pathetic little routine has failed to get things to even minimal operation...
With the excellent info on this forum, I have now:
1. Used http://www.authinx.com/software/SW31A/AHP_3.318.exe to reinstall AHP on new laptop
2. Changed the batteries in the CM15a, moved it to a new receptacle, connected it to new laptop
3. Copied my .ahx file from old netbook to new laptop
4. Launched AHP successfully on new laptop
5. Cleared/re-downloaded timers to the CM15A
BUT...I am still not able to control anything through AHP - either manually or based on timers/CM15a.
Today, I ordered a mini-timer controller and am planning to give that a try next. Before I completely give up on AHP though, I wanted to see if any forum experts have AHP/CM15A advice for me? (P-l-e-a-s-e!!!! I really don't want to lose the AHP interface!)
p.s. dumb question, what am I missing by not following the more intricate steps to trick out AHP on my new laptop to reference the old registration files? I just skip through the first couple of nag screens (I think I know what that means...maybe I don't!).
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Do you have an X10 phase coupler or coupler/repeater in the home?
Is the CM15A connected to the same power source as the computer? Computer power supplies are known to effect X10 power line signals.
Same goes for UPS units or filtered surge suppressors.
Any new or moved electronics in the home?
If you are using X10 LM465 Lamp Modules. Do they turn on and off instantly or ramp on and off? If they are instantly on and off. In AHP 3.318 they have to be defined from the Old Lamps (Before Soft Start) to work properly.
Here is a link to some great troubleshooting X10 issues tutorials.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
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Do you have an X10 phase coupler or coupler/repeater in the home? No
Is the CM15A connected to the same power source as the computer? Computer power supplies are known to effect X10 power line signals. Same goes for UPS units or filtered surge suppressors. I did have it connect to same power outlet, but just moved it to a different outlet with no improvement.
Any new or moved electronics in the home? Over the years, yes. But not recently.
If you are using X10 LM465 Lamp Modules. Do they turn on and off instantly or ramp on and off? If they are instantly on and off. In AHP 3.318 they have to be defined from the Old Lamps (Before Soft Start) to work properly.I primarily have my lamps plugged in to the SR227 wall receptacles but I do have a lamp module and I did some testing with it....even deleted & changed the module in AHP to try both the old & new module types but no improvement.
Here is a link to some great troubleshooting X10 issues tutorials.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm Thanks - I'll keep reading and trying different tips! :P
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You can simplify troubleshooting using a palmpad (I assume you have one). You mentioned using a TM751 as well as describing your CM15A. You are not leaving both of them plugged in receiving and translating the same codes over top of one another are you? Also - double check in AHP and confirm the CM15A transceiver is set to receive the correct housecodes from your palmpad.
Once you start to get (any) results with a palmpad and transceiver (either TM751 or CM15A) - you can move on to troubleshoot AHP and other potential noise throughout your house - which certainly appears to be an issue.
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Hmmm...yes, I am using both the CM15A and TM751 (set to Housecode A w/approx. 12 receptacles and wall switches also set on A). Right now, the only thing that will work is a lamp plugged directly in to the TM751 via the on/off button on the TM751. Are you saying the use of both the controller and transceiver on same housecode may be an issue? I am a complete HA novice and actually though this combo was necessary and it hasn't been a problem since '09 (or at least, its been setup this way that long).
I don't have a palmpad and my older remote(s) stopped working a couple of years ago. I've just been relying on the CM15A/timers since then, but within the past month that has stopped working too. I did confirm the AHP housecode is correct/set to transmit for the CM15a (switched between auto and static, with no improvement).
Thanks so much for your reply! ::)
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Do you have an X10 phase coupler or coupler/repeater in the home?
Is the CM15A connected to the same power source as the computer? Computer power supplies are known to effect X10 power line signals.
Same goes for UPS units or filtered surge suppressors.
Any new or moved electronics in the home?
If you are using X10 LM465 Lamp Modules. Do they turn on and off instantly or ramp on and off? If they are instantly on and off. In AHP 3.318 they have to be defined from the Old Lamps (Before Soft Start) to work properly.
Here is a link to some great troubleshooting X10 issues tutorials.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
Brian, I read through the troubleshooting link you sent and got familiar with the booster/repeater & noise filter components. Do you have a suggestion for the best starting point for me? I think a single-phase solution would suffice since I'm not using a phase coupler now and with the specific lights I'm trying to control they all were working originally (all on 1st floor of 2 story home...does that likely mean they are all on 1 phase?). I don't know if it makes sense to try the signal booster/repeater first, or noise reducer first, or just go all in with both at once. I should definitely start with the assembled, plug-in versions!
Thanks again!
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The TM751 has no X10 power line receiver in it. So the CM15A and CM11A can't control it directly on the power line. Since the CM15A also has an X10 RF transmitter in it. If you have AHP and a CM15A. You can add the TM751 module and AHP knows to use X10 RF and not a power line command to control it.
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That makes sense Brian, thanks!
Based on this, is it correct to assume AHP/CM15a is sucessfully sending an RF signal to TM751 and the TM751 is receiving the signal since a lamp connected directly to the TM751 is turning on/off as it should? And, the problem is likely with the powerline signal? If so, I'm anxious for new palmpad remote to be delivered ("tomorrow by 8pm"!) because it sounds like it may work. At this point, even that small victory would make me feel great!
Reading back through this thread I saw that you re-installed AHP on a new drive and I've also just completed that process. I didn't bother renaming the volume on new laptop and completing the AHP registration...do you think that is necessary for AHP to send the PLC signals correctly (installed successfully, I can open and edit my .ahx files and download to CM15A just fine)? ...Sounds like registration shouldn't matter if all I am trying to do is use the CM15a, but maybe I am missing something?
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The TM751 will take the X10 RF commands on the House Code it is set to and send them on the power line.
The House Code the TM751 is set to with an X10 RF Unit Code 1 will also turn On and Off the TM751.
One thing the CM15A can also resend the X10 RF commands on the power lines and the TM751 is not polite. So there is a chance the TM751 could garbage a CM15A power line command. Though the CM15A is polite and should wait for the TM751s power line transmission to end.
The CM15A can have House Codes Transceived turned On and Off in the hardware configuration tab.
I did not install AHP on a new computer. I replaced my noisy hard drive with a new one and used the new hard drives clone program.
One of these days I may try to get the not registered nag screen fixed.
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Well, I've spent most of the day doing further research online and have ordered some X10 XPPFs to use on power strips connected to computer, tv, battery chargers as a first step. If reducing noise doesn't work, I'm looking at the XTB-IIR as a step 2! Can't imagine that I need a phase coupler since I'm only controlling a limited number of items and they appear to be on the same phase servicing my downstairs rooms. Thanks to all for your good insight and advice today!
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You may not have to go so powerful for a small system; such as adding the XTB-IIR repeater/coupler. In any case - if you have filters and a palmpad coming, that should really help a ton in testing & troubleshooting. You can move the TM751 around the house in various spots while testing with the palmpad, to see where it transmits the most reliable signals on the powerline to (all of) your existing X10 modules. Ideally, that is the spot where you should place your CM15A once it is programmed.
In a well designed system, your TM751 should not be receiving exactly the same codes as your CM15A however - although the CM15A "might" tolerate it; you will still be creating potential interference with every wireless command if they share the same house codes.
Household phases aren't necessarily on the same floor - in fact its more typical for the phases not to be on the same floor due to load balancing. Its not uncommon to have two wall plugs or switches within 6 feet of each other on different phases. That's just how it is. While testing by the way, it might be useful to turn your electric dryer or stove on and off during testing. 220v appliances actually create a "bridge" between phases so that may help determine which phase each outlet is on.
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Joe, guess how I will be spending New Years Day? ...traipsing around the house testing with the palm pad and TM751! I will also change the house code on TM751 as you have suggested.
I'm really starting to think my CM15a is going bad...from some additional tests tonight:
1. With lamp plugged in to TM751 and CM15a connected to PC (and plugged into same wall outlet as PC power strip and a ton of peripherals), I can turn the lamp on/off from AHP. But, it's the only module that will respond.
2. When I unplug CM15a from my PC, AHP will no longer the turn lamp on/off and I don't even hear the TM751 clucking on/off like it otherwise does (noisily).
Does this suggest anything about the state of the CM15a? Thanks!
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When you disconnected the PC from the CM15A. AHP has no way to send any X10 power line or RF commands. So AHP without a CM15A is rendered useless.
With the CM15A on a circuit with computing equipment. Good chance that X10 power line signals are corrupted by noise or being absorbed by the computing equipments AC input filters.
Can you get an AC extension cord and power the CM15A from a completely different AC branch circuit? Then see if anything changed.
Remember the TM751 has no power line receiver in it. So only X10 RF devices {like a HR12A Palm Pad or CM15A sending an RF command} can control it.
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In a well designed system, your TM751 should not be receiving exactly the same codes as your CM15A however - although the CM15A "might" tolerate it; you will still be creating potential interference with every wireless command if they share the same house codes.
Things aren't so cut and dried. I did extensive testing using multiple transceivers several years ago and found the conventional wisdom was largely in error.
25+ years ago, X10 transceivers always waited for a ZC rising edge to start transmitting to the powerline. This assured powerline collisions if two transceivers were on opposite phases. But, this was changed and, now, the transceivers all begin transmitting on the next ZC following reception and decoding of an RF command. In most cases this means the transceivers will transmit the same bit during the same half-cycle so there are no collisions.
However, for the address of the transceiver relay, the relay is activated/deactivated before sending PLC. This means the transceiver has to wait for a ZC rising edge to activate the SCR which controls the relay. So multiple transceivers with some not having a relay can cause PLC collisions independent of poweline phase relationships.
And, most RF commands are sent as a sequence of 5 or more copies. This serves to set the AGC in the receiver. For weak RF signals, it may mean 2, 3 or more codes are received before the receiver can discern a valid X10 RF code. You can see some screenshots showing this at http://davehouston.org/rf-noise.htm (http://davehouston.org/rf-noise.htm). This can mean that multiple transceivers at varying distances from the RF transmitter will cause PLC collisions independent of poweline phase relationships.
To further complicate things multiple polite PLC transmitters can generate powerline signal storms as they back-off, wait a random number of ZCs and then try again. There are a limited number of reentry slots and the more polite transmitters there are the more likely are multiple collisions. And, multiple polite transmitters will always result in multiple PLC commands.
I documented things several years ago at http://davehouston.org/multiples.htm (http://davehouston.org/multiples.htm)
Bottom line is that it is hard to troubleshoot these types of problems.
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Yeah - X10 collisions have become pretty complex; that's why ultimately its best to limit the number of transceivers if possible. Many years ago, I started with a palmpad, a couple modules and a (brand new device at the time) CM15A - and walked it all over the house to find the best spot (for both PLC signal and RF receiving). Believe it or not - it was in a bathroom on the main floor!? It actually got programmed and sat in there for the better part of a year while I added filters & such to improve performance!
Brian's advice is good too. When you get to testing AHP - plug CM15A into an extension cord and then move the extension plug around 'til you find a good spot where your powerline signals seem the best. That way, your not toting a computer around the house to wherever the "good" spot is. A computer in the bathroom would be just weird. You can use the monitor function on AHP to see what the powerline/CM15A is receiving when you use your palmpad & TM751 (assuming the housecodes are different, you can see whether the TM751 is "speaking the codes" on the powerline and being picked up by the CM15A).
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When you disconnected the PC from the CM15A. AHP has no way to send any X10 power line or RF commands. So AHP without a CM15A is rendered useless.
Oh my...I completely zoned on that...got myself turned inside out trying so many combinations! :-\
Thank you for the gentle correction!
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I originally had the TM751 in use with a couple of X10 remotes. The remotes eventually stopped working and, for a couple of years, I've just relied on the AHP timers to simply turn lights on/off in the evenings so I don't have to come home to a dark house.
Given the suggestion to NOT use the TM751 and CM15a on the same house code, how would I accomplish using the CM15a for timers/macros AND the remotes for adhoc on/off?
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Wait a minute...maybe you guys are telling me that a RF remote will communicate with the CM15a and I don't even need the TM751?
Duh...maybe I am catching on - ever so slowly!! ;D
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Sometimes to maximize RF coverage, people DO use TM751. Its been a long, long time since I used AHP, but essentially you would create a macro that would hear one code from TM751, and respond by generating another on the powerline. Almost like a cross-code link. However I'm the last guy you should ask AHP programming questions - there are tons of folks on various forums who are way-more accustomed to getting the most out of AHP, its features and its numerous plug-ins.
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...but essentially you would create a macro that would hear one code from TM751, and respond by generating another on the powerline. Almost like a cross-code link.
Thanks Joe, I think I stumbled across a forum discussion on that topic (or actually the reverse scenario)...a macro was designed as a workaround to reach a module that was not responding to PLC. (PLC --> A4; triggered RF command -->B4, via TM751 set to house code B).
Hopefully the palmpad remote arrives today and I will start doing the troubleshooting you guys have described. (And, I did find an X10 old credit card remote in a drawer this morning that I will resort to using if mail delivery is slow!)
Happy New Years Eve to all!
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Happy New Years Eve to everyone also. Enjoy your upcoming "traipsing".
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Traipsing initiated...so far, I've only found 2 outlets that are performing as expected. Think I should have gone ahead and ordered the XTB-IIR ::)
Setup:
> AHP monitored house code = B; Transceived house codes = A, B, C, D
Test 1:
> TM751 set to B, LM465 set to B4 with lamp plugged in (approx 6 ft apart), HR12A remote set to B = WORKS (lamp on/off from HR12A)
Test 2:
> replaced TM751 with CM15a/not connected to PC, other variables the same as Test 1 = WORKS (lamp on/off from HR12A)
> moved LM465 to various other outlets = DID NOT WORK
Test 3:
> CM15a/connected to PC, AHP modules defined for TM751 (B) & LM465 (B4), other variables same as Test 1 = WORKS (lamp on/off manually from AHP)
Test 4:
> same as 3 with timer set for B4 to turn on lamp at 5:45 & off at 5:48 = WORKS (about 1 min variance each way -- lamp turned on at 5:46; lamped turned off at 5:47)
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Well...Now you have something to work with. Something actually works! Time to troubleshoot (AKA serious traipsing). Remember that unplugging a suspect device is the equivalent (actually better) than filtering it. You've either got some giant suckers or giant noise generators somewhere if only two outlets work reliably. Or maybe a house that's chock full of old/cheap/noisy CFL's. Time to read http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm & pursue. But maybe have a few drinks first - and work tomorrow. Its New Year's Eve!
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Well, one margarita later, I remembered that the most recent 'change' I made was to add some really cute, vintage, Edison-style light bulbs to the fixtures above my dining table and sink and I do recall the sink light no longer dimming (just hard on/of) - think I will first try removing them and see how things improve (positive thinking)....but yes, the saga will continue tomorrow!
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Well, its a much better day. I moved everything to a different house code, deleted/added back the modules in AHP, programmed the remote and MUCH IMPROVED!
I am still experimenting with where to place the CM15a. I can't find a spot where everything I want to control is connecting and I have 2 modules not responding at all. I think I'll replace those modules and see what happens...and I'm ordering the XTB-IIR!
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So...planning on killing a couple nagging mosquitoes with a shotgun? I really can't criticize because I did that too.
If you do go the XTB-IIR route, don't toss those modules (if you haven't already). After installing mine I resurrected two old SHL2000 Smartlinc modules from my "failure box" that never, ever worked reliably for me....and voila....two "non-working" modules went back into service.
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Some of the Smartlinc X10 modules had a real poor power line receiver design.
The added signal level from the XTB-IIR was probably plenty to overcome the poor receivers in them.
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Two cents follows: The XTB-IIR is the silver bullet for almost all X10 home installations, but is a costly solution for small systems. You might think about investing in a XTBM signal/noise meter from JVDE for troubleshooting. Also, if you have NO phase coupling, that is at least part of your problem. Although by no means universal, for many brands of load centers, the top row of breakers will be on one phase and the next row of breakers below, will be on the other phase. You can confirm this by checking a 220V breaker such as stove or water heater. If it spans two rows in vertical thickness you can assume the top breaker is on one phase and next breaker directly below will be on opposite phase. This will repeat to the bottom of the column. If XTB-IIR is out of the question, then check out an XPCR. I see them at $60 on eBay.
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The XTB-IIR is the silver bullet
Not only that, but using his 220v European transformer as the core, Jeff has recently made a "super duty" version for North America that (I'm makin' this part up) must be just a couple volts short of a laser-lite-show in X10 signal. Truthfully I can't imagine anyone needing a stronger repeater than his current US model...but hey, maybe Disneyland is thinking about using X10 to power their parade of lights??
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The XTB-IIR+ takes advantage of the larger power supply in the 3-phase version. Rather than distributing that energy into 3 signal bursts each half cycle, it concentrates it all into the zero-crossing signal burst.
I don't recommend it for the average home because it may be too powerful. Some people have reported nearby dimmers flickering when the standard XTB-IIR transmits. (There is a mode option to reduce or eliminate that effect.) The stronger signal from the + version is intended for very large homes or those who have to send signals to outbuildings located hundreds of feet away.
Jeff
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So...planning on killing a couple nagging mosquitoes with a shotgun? I really can't criticize because I did that too.
Yes, patiently awaiting another package in the mail :)
But...after 2 days of thinking I had made some real progress, things have regressed today. I tried disconnecting the CM15A from my laptop and moving it to a different outlet to see if I could get those last 2 modules to respond...that didn't help so I just moved the CM15a back to the original outlet and reconnected it to my laptop. Now, I get a message saying the USB device isn't recognized.
I've rebooted my laptop and reloaded AHP/installed the related drivers, but still no luck. I saw a post suggesting to unplug and remove the batteries from the CM15a, but if I do that I assume I'll lose the currently downloaded timers and they are still working, as well as a palmpad remote...just no control via AHP.
So....think I'd better just sleep on it and hope that it magically resolves itself overnight - aaargh.
Think I'll
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See if you can somehow reach Tuicemen with a message or do some searching over at http://tuicemen.com/forum/index.php to see if the topic of lost USB has been covered there.
He has been troubleshooting AHP quirks on most operating systems for years - and very likely knows how to help you solve the issue.