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💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: dhouston on July 25, 2016, 10:23:23 AM

Title: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 25, 2016, 10:23:23 AM
http://www.programmableweb.com/news/forget-home-automation-apps-focus-apis/elsewhere-web/2016/07/24?google_editors_picks=true (http://www.programmableweb.com/news/forget-home-automation-apps-focus-apis/elsewhere-web/2016/07/24?google_editors_picks=true)

And avoid clouds.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 25, 2016, 04:01:51 PM
http://www.programmableweb.com/news/forget-home-automation-apps-focus-apis/elsewhere-web/2016/07/24?google_editors_picks=true (http://www.programmableweb.com/news/forget-home-automation-apps-focus-apis/elsewhere-web/2016/07/24?google_editors_picks=true)

And avoid clouds.

But the piece said to use the cloud based API functions! That, that is what people want! A quote:
As well as easing the task of home management for consumers, connecting smart homes using APIs and controlled by digital personal assistants will present new business opportunities for individual industries.

This better explains how the API function works:  https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/alexa/alexa-skills-kit/overviews/understanding-the-smart-home-skill-api
(https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/alexa/alexa-skills-kit/overviews/understanding-the-smart-home-skill-api)
The idea is to use a cloud based service like Siri (or Amazons Alexa)... to communicate with an interpreter. That would notify which/what ever cloud based API needed to satisfy the given command. Whether using a home based Internet connected controller or web accessed media.

In other words..... If properly done.... I could use my Apple phone to ask Siri to turn on my home theater (which it could then do via the Apple cloud based Siri, and any other internet connected power control). Then I could ask Siri to select a video from a streaming provider (Apple cloud to say Netflix cloud). Then I could command Siri to dim the lights (Siri cloud, to X10 cloud, my Internet connected X10 device).

All from me saying: Siri, turn on the theater, stream the movie Batman returns, and dim the theater lights.

Of course... being an iPhone user... I'd prefer a Siri app. But realistically Amazon is way ahead on this use with the Alexa (echo) product.

PS... if done correctly... I think this technology could be used to turn on and play a VCR (https://www.amazon.com/X10-UX23A-VCR-Commander/dp/B0010ZNVF0).
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: bkenobi on July 25, 2016, 04:46:09 PM
API just means application program interface.  When I think of it, I typically assume they mean that the application is local.  However, my weather station which is on the cloud is an API to interface with the cloud rather than with the local data (big bummer when I found that out).  Either way, an API is better than no API.  It doesn't fix the cloud, but at least it means I can get around a lot of it's limitations (albeit in a round-about way).  If the local hardware just shared the data to the API locally, that would be ideal.  I'd have cloud backup (if I wanted to use it), relatively easy/secure remote access, and local data (faster, secure, non-server-dependent).  But, in my case, I'd have to use wire shark to capture the packets to figure out what the station is sending where and then decode locally because their API is to pull data back down.

EDIT:  Oh, and looking at the Amazon chart I was reminded of one other thing that I've heard people hate about the cloud controlled (non-local controlled) lights.  The signal goes from the person, to the device, to the cloud, to the module.  This introduces a delay that is apparently less than ideal.  I haven't tried any of them, so I don't know if that's any slower than X10 so it may be a wash for us.  But, if the internet is slow/down, I may not be able to turn on my lights.  And some modules don't have local control.   ???
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 25, 2016, 05:01:14 PM
API just means application program interface.  When I think of it, I typically assume they mean that the application is local.
 

Whereas.... I would assume the interface is local. It's the interface... that you see.

..... If the local hardware just shared the data to the API locally, that would be ideal.  I'd have cloud backup (if I wanted to use it), relatively easy/secure remote access, and local data (faster, secure, non-server-dependent).

Generally speaking if a Web controlled, but locally available device can.... they stop short at your router. Unless your using a cloud based app like Alexa or Siri a remote action would remain local. But the same remote action could also be used remotely via the web. (you could control lights, alarms, etc. from out of town.)

..... EDIT:  Oh, and looking at the Amazon chart I was reminded of one other thing that I've heard people hate about the cloud controlled (non-local controlled) lights.  The signal goes from the person, to the device, to the cloud, to the module.  This introduces a delay that is apparently less than ideal. 

For people with excellent internet connects the delay no longer exists. BUT... it could be a pain for those with internet problems (Knightrider: thinking of YOU buddie).
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 25, 2016, 05:04:22 PM
This better explains how the API function works:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface)

X10 published an API for the CM11A which had no cloud dependency and made it easy for programmers to support it.

But, with the CM15A, they entangled everything with their cloud and we all know what happened when their cloud dissipated. There really was no need to do it that way.

The corporations like Amazon want your house to link to the cloud so they can apply their data-mining algorithms to track your activities and sell you things (or sell the mined data to others).

And, you do not need the cloud in order to connect to your devices when you are away from home as this thread shows....
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29603.0 (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29603.0)

Some of the problems are those noted by bkenobi but I also worry about hackers who will market the data to local chapters of Burglars-R-Us.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 25, 2016, 07:27:45 PM
X10 published an API for the CM11A which had no cloud dependency and made it easy for programmers to support it.

And the software (along with the interface) never grew or improved. The CM11a had a short life span as a result. (PS I still have mine)

But, with the CM15A, they entangled everything with their cloud and we all know what happened when their cloud dissipated. There really was no need to do it that way.

Yep! That was mismanaged and mishandled! The laws that were supposed to protect the consumer didn't. But... the software grew, expanded, and updated. The server at X10 didn't function well.... but those were the old days... and X10 was ahead of the times. The cloud works! It isn't a theory... or even new fangled. The cloud is the way things are done.

The corporations like Amazon want your house to link to the cloud so they can apply their data-mining algorithms to track your activities and sell you things (or sell the mined data to others).

And if you go outside people will see you, and if you don't pay with hard cash... the banks and the government will know. And... I am absolutely certain the NSA is reading our automation posts.

... but I also worry about hackers who will market the data to local chapters of Burglars-R-Us.

You know life is good... when what you find to worry about is so trivial and meaningless. Congratulations on your good fortune. Our local chapter of cyber criminals disbanded when all the members moved to DC to get good government jobs.

Of course... we still have illiterate thugs that will bust your head open and steal your car. I'd rather facedown the guys with laptops.  
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 26, 2016, 08:03:39 AM
X10 published an API for the CM11A which had no cloud dependency and made it easy for programmers to support it.

And the software (along with the interface) never grew or improved. The CM11a had a short life span as a result. (PS I still have mine)

The short lifespan was because PC makers stopped including serial ports and early USB-Serial adapters were pricey.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 27, 2016, 09:39:28 PM
The short lifespan was because PC makers stopped including serial ports and early USB-Serial adapters were pricey.

Not my experience.

Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2016, 09:06:29 AM
With the limited vocabulary needed for automation control, why not use a voice recognition program in a PC, and do everything locally?

For example:  https://www.automatedliving.com/

Jeff
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 28, 2016, 09:47:45 AM
With the limited vocabulary needed for automation control, why not use a voice recognition program in a PC, and do everything locally?

For example:  https://www.automatedliving.com/

And, even after all these years, they still support the CM11A.  8)
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2016, 10:18:15 AM
With the limited vocabulary needed for automation control, why not use a voice recognition program in a PC, and do everything locally?

For example:  https://www.automatedliving.com/

And, even after all these years, they still support the CM11A.  8)

I'm going to get their basic package to see how it works with the XTB-232.

Jeff
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 28, 2016, 10:34:23 AM
With the limited vocabulary needed for automation control, why not use a voice recognition program in a PC, and do everything locally?

Your kidding right? I've been using an AHP add-on software I found here at the forum way back in 2005 (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=13387.345) Tuicemen and others have AHP compatible voice control software. I thought we all were using some level of voice control already.

Although I really like my BVC (http://wgjohns.com/) (Bill's Voice Commander) software.... it was never updated to overcome the problems that came with Visa. Which makes it a great software to run on an old XP dust collector or even an old CE mini. I purchased a 3rd party Voice (Kate 16bit) for my set-up. And (with a little speaker tuning) my automation announcements sound very human-like (much more so than say... the Hilary voice).  :D My AHP/BVC set-up announces everything from a (waking hour) clock announcement, outside perimeter detection, garage door status.... and more.

I can voice command my X10 stuff on and off too. I had come up with the idea of using baby monitors instead of an expensive wired microphone set-ups. And partly because it's pretty quite around here with just the wife and I. The 8bit voice recognition works great with simple $20 baby monitors.

But there are serious limitations with local control! All this has been covered up/down/and sideways here on the forums for over a decade.

I have two laptop automation computers running 24/7. One is totally local and has the power to do a GREAT job with voice recon. The other is simply a server to talk with a automation app on my phone (and a CM19A). I have it all setup together with my (security camera) video recorder/server on a shelf in my Man-Cave (formerly called Nerd-nasium, or home office).

Don't get me wrong... it's a nice set-up. But technologically speaking.... it's a blast-from-the-past too. My cell phone could easily accomplish all the same functions. And without the concern for power spikes or electric use. Heck.... for that matter.. this could all be done on a $50 tablet. AND with a CM19A (type device), a tiny server app, a phone app, and a cloud portal... I could have the-whole-nine-yards with TWO-WAY global access.

And... NOTHING compares to the cloud based voice recognition stuff. I use Siri to type my text messages.... and even to spell words for me. I can set in my easy chair at home... with my iPhone in it's charging cradle (which give me a great view of the screen). And say: Hey Siri, text Mary (wife) and remind her "tonight is pizza night". Siri will repeat the message and ask confirmation to send.... and it's done. Without so much as lifting a finger. (I could easily order the pizza the same way as well).

Using the API cloud function like dhouston suggested the other day is the perfect (complete) automation solution. But it requires a cloud connected X10 interface. But like I posted earlier.... the device doesn't need be anymore than a cheap tablet, a CM19A-like dongle, a couple apps, and a cloud/server site.

    
 


Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2016, 11:03:35 AM
Dave, some people are just not as progressive as you.

No, I have never used voice control.  Our Ocelot program pretty much controls all lighting, and adjusts our irrigation for time of year and temperature without requiring any input except to cancel a cycle if we had some rain.  I programmed our 8-zone HVAC controller to follow our daily cycle, and it is very efficient in energy use.

I do not have a smart phone.  I don't even carry a cellphone, except for the emergency "flip-phone" in my hiking backpack ($10 for 120 days).  Some of us even occasionally watch VHS tapes.

My whole point was that for simple voice control, you don't have to get the cloud involved.

Voice control would be a huge leap forward for me.  I may call her Sarah...

Jeff
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: bkenobi on July 28, 2016, 11:09:30 AM
When everything is set up correctly as it is now, I've never seen the need for voice control.  If I were to set up a new home theater that was connected to a PC, I'd definitely do something more advanced, but my current setup works fine and doesn't bother others.  It simply works as needed and doesn't get in the way.  When something breaks, my wife lets me know about it in a way that makes it obvious that the status quo is perfect for now.

In fact, the only thing ever mentioned about any of my setup is how the door chime goes off every 5 minutes on hot days during certain situations (motion sensors have limitations and a 5 minute timeout can only do so much).  Voice control probably wouldn't add much to what we do with the system.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 28, 2016, 11:11:45 AM
This is funny... I think. I was reading my previous post to correct my crappy grammar and spelling. When Siri asked for confirmation to text Mary to remind her "it's pizza night"

I swear.... this stuff works great!
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 28, 2016, 11:24:48 AM
Dave, some people are just not as progressive as you...... I have never used voice control........ Voice control would be a huge leap forward for me.

Most of the world uses NO automation anything. However some of us do. Neither the users or non-users are wrong. WARNING: if you try voice control stuff.... you may get hooked. 

Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 28, 2016, 11:37:58 AM
I'm going to get their basic package to see how it works with the XTB-232.

Their list of supported X10 interfaces is truly impressive (as is their list of other supported protocols/interfaces) and they will support your ADI hardware should there be any issues with the XTB-232.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 28, 2016, 11:46:09 AM
I've never seen the need for voice control.

Thank God!

When Bill (of BVC) realized that X10 and windows voice recognition could be combined via a software to benefit people with very a limited range of motion. Bill invested hundreds and hundreds of hours of effort and helped many people enjoy a much greater degree of control over their lives.  He used to joke that his biggest user (me)... wasn't disabled.... just lazy.

And where it is true that I don't NEED... ANY automation. I do enjoy it.

If I were to set up a new home theater that was connected to a PC, I'd definitely do something more advanced, but my current setup works fine and doesn't bother others........... Voice control probably wouldn't add much to what we do with the system.

Forget the computer! Although I do have a PC connected to a 46" TV in my man-cave... I did that to keep from having a desk in the room. I can use the PC from a bar-like table/stool or recliner with a remote keyboard mouse.

Get yourself a Amazon fire device (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U3FPN4U/ref=sv_devicesubnav_2)! Become a prime member and voice search THOUSANDS of movies you can stream to your theater..... free of charge.

I use the Man-cave PC-TV to view YouTube cycling movies to make my winter cycling training more fun.

P.S. on one of the (pretend) rides through the mountains... the decent was so steep and fast and the views so exciting... I leaned so hard I almost fell off my bicycle.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 28, 2016, 12:05:05 PM
Using the API cloud function like dhouston suggested the other day is the perfect (complete) automation solution. But it requires a cloud connected X10 interface. But like I posted earlier.... the device doesn't need be anymore than a cheap tablet, a CM19A-like dongle, a couple apps, and a cloud/server site.

Hmmm, I've reread my post and the article I linked and I'm unable to find the word cloud anywhere in it. I guess when you have your head in the clouds you see clouds every which way you look.

HAL, which Jeff linked to, has been around for 24 years supporting/integrating X-10 and the other powerline protocols. They have done this without the need for clouds because the various interfaces provided APIs (or Communications Protocols) that allowed them to integrate them into one control program. Notably absent is the CM15A because X-10 never released a Communications Protocol for it and it was a superhuman task to use USB from low power embedded MCUs.

I offered similar support/integration for numerous HA hardware interfaces when I designed the BX24-AHT many years ago. I also wrote Commander X, a Windows application which interfaced with it and other hardware. About 15 years ago, an engineer on a temporary assignment in eastern Canada, controlled/monitored his house in Southern California using the internet and Commander X - with no clouds needed.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 28, 2016, 12:18:10 PM
This is funny... I think. I was reading my previous post to correct my crappy grammar and spelling. When Siri asked for confirmation to text Mary to reminder her "it's pizza night"

WOW. Not five minutes after posting this... I get a text from my wife saying "I am bringing home pizza tonight". I had to check my texts to make sure I hadn't requested it. Psychic Automation???????
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 28, 2016, 12:33:11 PM
Hmmm, I've reread my post and the article I linked and I'm unable to find the word cloud anywhere in it. I guess when you have your head in the clouds you see clouds every which way you look.

It's implied in the name:  API

....... About 15 years ago, an engineer on a temporary assignment in eastern Canada, controlled/monitored his house in Southern California using the internet and Commander X - with no clouds needed.

No. You're mistaken. The HTTP didn't allow that then... or now. Although we didn't use the term cloud in those days.... he used it. I remember back in the ole days..... I bought one of the 1st D-Cams (at a computer show.... maybe the Hamvention) 1995-96?. I actually got two... and had to "rent" server space in order to use them. Since the cost/price/use of servers has become so little that we don't think about how data gets from here to there. BUT... there is no way your engineer friend got a direct connection from his work to home unless he had a server-line (HTTP) at home. 15 years ago.... even today... very pricey.

Of course there was a way... using the static IP assigned by a cable ISP you could setup a home server. I actually setup up a (apache) file server in my basement for a brief period. I guess your engineer friend could have done that. But I never found that setup to be anything near maintenance free. And once again a DIY cloud... is still a cloud.

Now-a-days.... the grandkids "facetime" with Grammy.... and we wirelessly connect the iPhone with the Apple TV [device]. Put the grandkids up on the 50" in the living room. Almost like being a Jetson!
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2016, 12:41:12 PM
Get yourself a Amazon fire device (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U3FPN4U/ref=sv_devicesubnav_2)! Become a prime member and voice search THOUSANDS of movies you can stream to your theater..... free of charge.

$99 a year isn't exactly free of charge.  And most of the movies I was interested in had an additional charge above the Prime account.  I prefer Roku and Netflix.  And Roku gives you access to almost unlimited streaming - much of it for free (if you can put up with the commercials).

Jeff
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 28, 2016, 12:44:07 PM
Come on guys!!!!

We're old... were not idiots! Everything changes. The technology advances... in small little incremental steps. You guys are all likely better educated and trained than myself. This isn't that difficult to keep up with... and certainly NOTHING to be afraid of. The technology of the 70's and 80's was nice stuff. But the new stuff is MUCH better.

It's OK if you don't want automation!!! Not everybody does. But why do you post anti-automation posts... at an automation forum????
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 28, 2016, 12:50:55 PM
$99 a year isn't exactly free of charge.  And most of the movies I was interested in had an additional charge above the Prime account.  I prefer Roku and Netflix.  And Roku gives you access to almost unlimited streaming - much of it for free (if you can put up with the commercials).

Jeff

Yeah... I remember in an earlier post you mentioned you like Netflix. But, bkenobi hadn't. I myself favor the Amazon service.

I also have a Roku device. I do not have a Netflix account. There are many, many options. Roku also has the voice search option (https://www.roku.com/products/roku-3).
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 28, 2016, 02:01:44 PM
Hmmm, I've reread my post and the article I linked and I'm unable to find the word cloud anywhere in it. I guess when you have your head in the clouds you see clouds every which way you look.
It's implied in the name:  API
Only to the computer illiterate.

I've programmed computers since the days of Fortran/Cobol, and IBM punch cards fed to a mainframe so I think I understand the terminology.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2016, 02:21:54 PM
We're old... were not idiots! Everything changes. The technology advances... in small little incremental steps. You guys are all likely better educated and trained than myself. This isn't that difficult to keep up with... and certainly NOTHING to be afraid of. The technology of the 70's and 80's was nice stuff. But the new stuff is MUCH better.

Jeepers, I've been doing home automation since the original brown BSR modules came out.  They still work today.  I buy what I need or want.  I don't want to be interrupted by a cellphone, and am annoyed by people who interrupt their conversations to accept a cellphone call.  That is why we do not do any telephone support.  As I said earlier, I keep one in my backpack just in case.

I built my own computer from components back before even the Apple or Commodore were available.  That ran an operating similar to DOS, and I used it for years developing factory automation equipment.  Now we have 6 Windows computers ranging from this 15-year old XP workhorse to three newer Windows 7 systems, and even a tablet to access the web when we are on the road.  I'll admit the Windows 7 quad-core I built is much faster than this PC, but this still does the job for my engineering applications, email, and web access to sites like this.

I see no need to update our automation system because it essentially does everything we want it to do.  The house takes care of itself whether we are here or not.  Why should I need a cellphone to access it when a nearby PalmPad can control everything?

We watch movies in our theater room on a 120 inch screen.  The projector doesn't support 3D, but we have 4 subwoofers that can do justice to any sound track.  And our Oppo video player can support any current media from commercial BluRay and DVDs to just about any video format on a USB memory stick.  Our other equipment supports everything from VHS to web streaming.  So we are pretty current there.

Jeff
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 28, 2016, 02:22:37 PM
It's OK if you don't want automation!!! Not everybody does. But why do you post anti-automation posts... at an automation forum????
No one has expressed any anti-automation views. A few of us have even pioneered Home Automation approaches. Jeff Volp, Dan Lanciani, Charles Sullivan, Neil Cherry, Brian Karas, Ed Cheung, myself and a few others posted frequently on HA topics to comp.home.automation back in prehistoric times and have made a few contributions to the art.

It's having automation that's cloud-dependent that we dislike. I, and I suspect others in this thread, have no problem with opt-in cloud connections that augment local control but we also understand that there's very little that cannot be done locally.

Besides, X10 is a very minor subset of Home Automation so calling this an automation forum is a stretch.

If those who offer HA interfaces, hubs, etc. would supply APIs (i.e. publish communications protocols) it allows integrating/melding control of disparate systems and would prevent hardware obsolescence when proprietary clouds burst.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2016, 02:33:09 PM
I've programmed computers since the days of Fortran/Cobol, and IBM punch cards fed to a mainframe so I think I understand the terminology.

Somewhere in my "hording" I have a jar of chads that I save as a reminder of that era.  I also have that paper tape for tic-tac-toe, which was the first program I wrote for my own computer.  Very soon after that I went to storing programs on cassette tape using tone bursts.  Gee, that kind of sounds like X10...

Jeff
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 28, 2016, 03:36:03 PM
....... About 15 years ago, an engineer on a temporary assignment in eastern Canada, controlled/monitored his house in Southern California using the internet and Commander X - with no clouds needed.
No. You're mistaken. The HTTP didn't allow that then... or now.

http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/New-Products/IP-Commander.html (http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/New-Products/IP-Commander.html)

When SmartHome bought Switchlinc, one of the principals took the money and ran - to the mountains of eastern Tennessee where he designed the IP Commander. I don't recall when I got mine - I sometimes got early versions of hardware because I would usually review them on comp.home.automation - but I probably had it prior to the date (12/5/2001) on the online offering above by a dealer in the UK. I still have mine.

I found the first mention in comp.home.automation.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.home.automation/ip$20commander/comp.home.automation/WjiMPPt3YRc/BTORLmSe5twJ (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.home.automation/ip$20commander/comp.home.automation/WjiMPPt3YRc/BTORLmSe5twJ)
We followed up via e-mail.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 28, 2016, 04:00:02 PM
Very soon after that I went to storing programs on cassette tape using tone bursts.  Gee, that kind of sounds like X10...
Jeff Mayes, who designed the IP Commander, suggested using an LM567 tone decoder IC for receiving X10.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 28, 2016, 04:35:33 PM
The IP Commander was based on...
http://netmedia.com/siteplayer/telnet/index.html (http://netmedia.com/siteplayer/telnet/index.html)

I used Netmedia's BasicX IC in the BX24-AHT but saw no need to duplicate what the IP Commander did.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: bkenobi on July 28, 2016, 05:16:51 PM
After reading many of the posts in this thread (and a couple others), it seems that there is a nomenclature issue.  It appears that API, server, and cloud are being used interchangeably in some instances.  To level set, API's are a way to expose the functions of a software so external programs can access them.  A server (at least as far as we have been discussing) is a device on your local network that allows access to devices outside the network.  A/the cloud is a server(s) set up by a company that provides some service that is typically accessed by a smart phone or PC and connects various devices connected to a home network (typically).  When these terms are mixed, it confuses the issues we are discussing and makes it appear that there is a conflict of opinions when there may not be.

When I think of an API, I typically think of a library or executable that I can call by some program to get something back (data or action).  In my mind, it's simply a black box that I can't see inside of but it does something I only care about the output from.  Some manufacturers implement their API through the cloud (e.g., the BloomSky weather station's API is actually a call to a remote web/cloud server rather than to the local hardware), though it is not intrinsically necessary.  What I want from an API for this weather station is the data the station is collecting.  When I call the API, it connects to the cloud and pulls the stored data and sends it back to me.  I would personally prefer it be implemented where the API connects to the local weather station and pulls the data locally without requiring an internet connection.  If the BloomSky server ever shuts down, the API is gone and the weather station won't have anywhere to send the data to.

Also, when someone sets up a network server and accesses it from a remote location, this is not exactly the same as a cloud.  And, if that is the preferred name for that server, the complaint/concern people have posted here are not related to that approach.  The only concern that has been cited about the cloud is strictly related to companies own servers that connect to proprietary devices that have no local control/data available to harvest.

I looked at Roku, Fire, etc last year and was about to order one of them.  But, I found out that my network connection was too slow and my TV didn't support the connections for any devices.  I'd have to upgrade my internet subscription, buy the streaming device, pay a subscription, get a new TV, a new receiver, a new DVD/BD player, etc just to watch free movies.  That free service started to look pretty expensive.   B:(
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 28, 2016, 06:22:21 PM
What I want from an API for this weather station is the data the station is collecting.
While the BX24-AHT did not include a complete weather station, it did have sockets for a barometric sensor and a temperature/humidity sensor.  And, you could access the data locally or remotely according to your needs.

Quote
Also, when someone sets up a network server and accesses it from a remote location, this is not exactly the same as a cloud.
And, there were simple, cloud-free web servers available as far back as 15 years. See...
http://netmedia.com/siteplayer/webserver/index.html (http://netmedia.com/siteplayer/webserver/index.html)
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 28, 2016, 07:13:28 PM
I looked at Roku, Fire, etc last year and was about to order one of them.  But, I found out that my network connection was too slow and my TV didn't support the connections for any devices.
There are inexpensive HDMI to VGA (and other combinations) adapters.

My main monitor supports HDMI, DVI, Display Port and VGA inputs. I had to do a bit of fancy footwork to connect all - W10 (HDMI), W7 (DVI), Mac Mini (Display Port) and RPi3 (HDMI to VGA adapter). 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E717OXE/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E717OXE/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 28, 2016, 10:17:35 PM

Only to the computer illiterate.

I've programmed computers since the days of Fortran/Cobol, and IBM punch cards fed to a mainframe so I think I understand the terminology.

So you disagreed with the technical link I provided you with huh? Maybe if you complain enough to everyone on the internet they will stop the cloud.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: bkenobi on July 28, 2016, 11:54:21 PM
My TV is an old CRT Sony Wega XBR circa 2002.  I keep hoping it will die so I can justify replacing it, but it keeps going and looks great.  Heck, I had a break in years ago and the intruder wouldn't even touch it cause he knew it weighed 300#!

Unfortunately, the most advanced connection I have is component (Y, Pb, Pr).  I have a nice Onkyo receiver which sounds awesome, but component is all it has too.  I know I could get an adapter, but I've done those in the past and they always seem so clunky and disappointing.  Maybe they are better these days.  Anyway, the internet is really the biggest problem.  Watching low res YouTube requires buffering the whole thing to avoid hickups.  DirecTV on demand requires downloading the whole content, so it's not so on demand.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 29, 2016, 12:53:00 AM
............... I looked at Roku, Fire, etc last year and was about to order one of them.  But, I found out that my network connection was too slow and my TV didn't support the connections for any devices.  I'd have to upgrade my internet subscription, buy the streaming device, pay a subscription, get a new TV, a new receiver, a new DVD/BD player, etc just to watch free movies.  That free service started to look pretty expensive.   B:(

Yeah. It's frustrating for most people. Just reading some of these post on THIS thread.... and you can almost hear the heartbreak of updating and upgrading.

My brother used to call the cutting edge... the bleeding edge. Of course... he is no longer with us. So his waiting for things to wear-out or drop in price.... didn't pay-out like he might have hoped.

But some members here... don't live in areas where broadband visits. So... no matter what resources anyone has... it is rare anyone has everything to work with.   

But huge flat screen hi-res TV are pretty cheap now a days.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: JeffVolp on July 29, 2016, 09:29:08 AM
My TV is an old CRT Sony Wega XBR circa 2002.  I keep hoping it will die so I can justify replacing it, but it keeps going and looks great.  Heck, I had a break in years ago and the intruder wouldn't even touch it cause he knew it weighed 300#!

Unfortunately, the most advanced connection I have is component (Y, Pb, Pr).  I have a nice Onkyo receiver which sounds awesome, but component is all it has too.

We have one of those Sony XBR beasts too, but ours is about a decade older.  It is what turned me off about Sony products.  It died soon after we received it, and was repaired under warrantee.  Then the power supplied failed, and I found bad solder joints.  Over the years it gradually degraded.  I can't tell you how many times I pulled out the chassis looking for bad solder joints.  First the tuner was intermittent and finally died - bypassed by a VCR turner.  Then the sound went - bypassed by the audio output and computer speakers.  Now it is pushed off into a corner waiting for us to haul it somewhere for disposal.

Only one of our TVs is flat-panel HD with HDMI inputs.  All the others are CRT 10-15 years old.  A couple are RF input only, and we use them with the HDTV converter boxes.  Others have either video or component inputs, and they work with the TiVo satellite adapters.  When our cable company switched from analog to digital, all our DVRs were rendered virtually useless, so I bought a 6-tuner TiVo.  That acts as the recorder and front-end for most of our TVs.  One advantage is now we can watch a recorded program on any TV connected to the TiVo network - even in the theater room.

Jeff
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 29, 2016, 11:51:14 AM
With the limited vocabulary needed for automation control, why not use a voice recognition program in a PC, and do everything locally?

For example:  https://www.automatedliving.com/

The August issue of The MagPi deals with Windows 10 IoT Core on the RPi. There's a link to a PDF version below.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/windows-10-magpi-48/ (https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/windows-10-magpi-48/)
There's an article on a Magic Mirror which uses the Windows 10 speech recognition and text-to-speech to create a mirror which interprets (limited) vocal commands, speaks, plays music, displays news, weather, etc.  The fellow who created it is adding facial recognition so the mirror can display individualized schedules, news, etc. for him and his wife. While the music, news, weather, etc. are pulled in from the web, the processing is all local with no clouds in sight (excluding those in weather reports).

It could be easily expanded to use WiFi and the ESP8266 (WiFi to Serial) to interface with any of the myriad of HA controllers supported by HAL via their APIs/Communication-Protocols.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 29, 2016, 12:56:20 PM
After reading many of the posts in this thread (and a couple others), it seems that there is a nomenclature issue.  It appears that API, server, and cloud are being used interchangeably in some instances.
...
Quote
When these terms are mixed, it confuses the issues we are discussing and makes it appear that there is a conflict of opinions when there may not be.

Bill Gates learned computer programming in high school, using typewriter like terminals that communicated over telephone lines to an IBM mainframe. He would transmit his program/data, the mainframe would process it and return the results to a line printer that was associated with the terminal. Many businesses used similar setups before Gates created DOS/Windows/Office that ran locally on small, affordable PCs.

That ancient mainframe is comparable to today's clouds which are remote servers (or huge, powerful banks of same) to which we connect via the web, that run software programs (e.g. Office 365) as virtual machines. Aside from security issues, they make great sense for businesses. And, as I've stated, I've no objection to opt-in cloud connections that augment local control. I only object to HA hardware that forces us to depend on a cloud that may dissipate (e.g. X10 and Netgear) or burst, pouring our (perhaps personal) data out like a thunderstorm.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 29, 2016, 01:25:08 PM
The August issue of The MagPi There's an article on a Magic Mirror which uses the Windows 10 speech recognition and text-to-speech to create a mirror ............... the processing is all local with no clouds in sight (excluding those in weather reports).

The "magic mirror" was a great gadget for the display of a technology. The original concept added the floating head/animated image designed to appear to talk when the program spoke. Cute, sure, maybe. Any advanced tech can tend to be something a user designs to.... show off... rather than exploit the technology to be useful. I don't know of anyone ever actually "using" a magic mirror for anything other than YouTube videos and bragging rights.

One of the (secret) methods police are using now is creating social media (Facebook) accounts. The police fake accounts are often friended with and/or pretending to be known criminals. So when a security camera catches an image of a thug selling drugs (or even a terrorist at the airport) police can load the image to Facebook and let their facial recognition identify the person for tagging. An EXCELLENT use for cloud tech.

Regular people have used their own security cameras and social media accounts to do the same thing. Using a similar cloud based technology idea could tell a home owner.... who was the person at their door when they were away. Or who visited with their 16 year old daughter while Mom and Dad was still at work.

If X10 is about showing a buddie how we can use a remote to turn the upstairs lights off and on while watching a TV and drinking a beer in the living room..... then no cloud, PC, software, programs or.... much of anything else is required.

But if good automation is about exploiting the latest technology to better life for our families and ourselves (and by definition IT IS). Then we need to look at what CAN be done with todays technology. Not at how little of todays technology we can use.    
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 29, 2016, 01:30:53 PM
........ I've no objection to opt-in cloud connections that augment local control. I only object to HA hardware that forces us to depend on a cloud that may dissipate (e.g. X10 and Netgear) or burst, pouring our (perhaps personal) data out like a thunderstorm.

Everyone that reads these forums is well aware of your cloud/Internet fears. I think everyone understands fear (justified or not). But cloud technology is too big, too useful, too much of how everything is being done.... to NOT build in that direction.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 29, 2016, 01:41:39 PM
Regular people have used their own security cameras and social media accounts to do the same thing. Using a similar cloud based technology idea could tell a home owner.... who was the person at their door when they were away. Or who visited with their 16 year old daughter while Mom and Dad was still at work.   
All of which can be done without clouds.

How long have you had this allergy to facts?
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 29, 2016, 02:34:05 PM
My TV is an old CRT Sony Wega XBR circa 2002.
How many watts? My 50" Vizio flatscreen is 75W.

Even remote areas without landlines can get high speed satellite feeds.
http://internet.hughesnet.com/plans-and-pricing.html (http://internet.hughesnet.com/plans-and-pricing.html)
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 29, 2016, 03:17:58 PM
Regular people have used their own security cameras and social media accounts to do the same thing. Using a similar cloud based technology idea could tell a home owner.... who was the person at their door when they were away. Or who visited with their 16 year old daughter while Mom and Dad was still at work.   

All of which can be done without clouds.

Amazing!!!!! Your a GENIUS!!!! You can identify a picture of my wife, mother, brother, LONG deceased father.... WITHOUT using the cloud?!?!? I am VERY impressed with your "facts". Please share with me... how it is you do this. PLEASE!!!!!

I mean... any and everyone can do this using scary cloud technology. But how do you do it without the cloud? 
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 29, 2016, 04:29:27 PM
Now why would the police go to all that trouble and expense to lure miscreants to friend them on Facebook when they can access (for free) the FBI facial recognition database full of driver's license and other photo ID pix and then search that database for criminal records?
Hmm, maybe that's why I never met many of those cops at Mensa meetings.  rofl

http://www.techlicious.com/blog/how-police-use-facial-recognition-software-to-ID-you/ (http://www.techlicious.com/blog/how-police-use-facial-recognition-software-to-ID-you/)
http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/16/technology/security/fbi-facial-recognition/index.html (http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/16/technology/security/fbi-facial-recognition/index.html)
https://gcn.com/articles/2012/08/20/fbi-facial-recognition-software-open-to-police.aspx (https://gcn.com/articles/2012/08/20/fbi-facial-recognition-software-open-to-police.aspx)
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/21/fbi-facial-recognition-database-ten-times-larger-promised-90-non-criminals/ (http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/21/fbi-facial-recognition-database-ten-times-larger-promised-90-non-criminals/)

BTW, I believe the Cincinnati police and the OHP can do this from terminals in their patrol cars.

And, just how is the typical person going to build their own Facebook based facial recognition database or flag those people already on Facebook who happen to be criminals? Or is that a new Facebook service?

Due to my spinal cord injury (in layman's terms my headbone is no longer connected to my neckbone), I rarely leave my residence and have no need of a smartphone or security cameras so I cannot provide step-by-step instructions. Those who do can set things up to get a text message alert when the doorbell rings and then they connect to their security cameras and use their low-tech eyeballs to see who's at the door. And, if their teenage daughter lets a stranger in, they can ground her, cancel her allowance or, horror of horrors, confiscate her smartphone until she learns her lesson. Or, perhaps, just call 911 and report a prowler.

Anyway, my motto is "facepalm, frequently - faceplant, rarely - Facebook, NEVER!"
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: bkenobi on July 29, 2016, 05:39:34 PM
Never MyBooked/FaceSpaced myself, but I figure my wife lets everyone on the cloud know what I'm doing whether I like it or not.

My TV is an old CRT Sony Wega XBR circa 2002.
How many watts? My 50" Vizio flatscreen is 75W.

Even remote areas without landlines can get high speed satellite feeds.
http://internet.hughesnet.com/plans-and-pricing.html (http://internet.hughesnet.com/plans-and-pricing.html)

I measured the draw of my HT setup and with everything turned on (nothing coming out the speakers though) I saw 300W.  I don't recall if I checked the TV by itself.

When I bought my home, I could only get DSL at my location as cable was 2 miles down the road and not expanding any time soon.  I could have opted for satellite, but it was WAY too costly based on the plans I considered.  My DSL is technically upgradable, but looking at the costs, it was pretty spendy as well.  Last year a new cable company expanded lines to the end of my street so I could hook up.  At that time, they said to run them underground (I have all utilities underground due to the trees) it would be $3000.  I said NOPE!  A few months back I checked and they said they could install for free, but could not guarantee they wouldn't cut my utilities as they used their digging tools.  I don't want to have to redo my sprinkler system, so I opted not to install now since their prices for similar speeds were significantly higher.  Some day I'll get cable but just not now.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 30, 2016, 11:14:48 AM
http://venturebeat.com/2016/07/29/alexa-down/?google_editors_picks=true (http://venturebeat.com/2016/07/29/alexa-down/?google_editors_picks=true)  ::)
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 30, 2016, 01:58:32 PM
Now why would the police go to all that trouble and expense to lure miscreants to friend them on Facebook when they can access (for free) the FBI facial recognition database full of driver's license and other photo ID pix and then search that database for criminal records?
Hmm, maybe that's why I never met many of those cops at Mensa meetings.  rofl

Yeah... all those stupid cops really need YOU to tell them how to find criminals (with no known record). Maybe cops aren't afraid of the cloud... cause they carry guns. rofl

http://www.techlicious.com/blog/how-police-use-facial-recognition-software-to-ID-you/ (http://www.techlicious.com/blog/how-police-use-facial-recognition-software-to-ID-you/)
http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/16/technology/security/fbi-facial-recognition/index.html (http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/16/technology/security/fbi-facial-recognition/index.html)
https://gcn.com/articles/2012/08/20/fbi-facial-recognition-software-open-to-police.aspx (https://gcn.com/articles/2012/08/20/fbi-facial-recognition-software-open-to-police.aspx)
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/21/fbi-facial-recognition-database-ten-times-larger-promised-90-non-criminals/ (http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/06/21/fbi-facial-recognition-database-ten-times-larger-promised-90-non-criminals/)

WOW a string of searches like that should get the NSA's attention! But that's about it. They serve no purpose. Links to google searches.... is like a 12 years old book report written after watching the movie.

And, just how is the typical person going to build their own Facebook based facial recognition database or flag those people already on Facebook who happen to be criminals? Or is that a new Facebook service?

As proficient as you appear to be with a google search.... I will assume that to be a rhetorical question that you really don't what to learn anything about. Particularly.... when I read your post (below). I myself use the technology. But isn't that what Home Automation is all about?!?!? Exploiting the latest available technology to enhance my life and the life of those around me.

......... Those who do can set things up to get a text message alert when the doorbell rings and then they connect to their security cameras and use their low-tech eyeballs to see who's at the door. And, if their teenage daughter lets a stranger in, they can ground her, cancel her allowance or, horror of horrors, confiscate her smartphone until she learns her lesson. Or, perhaps, just call 911 and report a prowler.

Anyway, my motto is "facepalm, frequently - faceplant, rarely - Facebook, NEVER!"
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 30, 2016, 03:25:54 PM
I seldom use Google but a few seconds of laborious web searching with Bing found nearly 15 million pages on how to Access IP Camera from Internet
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Access+IP+Camera+from+Internet&FORM=QSRE1 (https://www.bing.com/search?q=Access+IP+Camera+from+Internet&FORM=QSRE1)

While I've yet to read all of them, the first few appear to say more or less the same thing and they don't seem to rely on clouds. It's remarkably similar to the steps followed in the thread by sheltiemom that I referenced earlier in this thread. One link is even from noip.com the free DDNS service that sheltiemom uses.
http://www.noip.com/support/knowledgebase/how-to-setup-a-webcam-and-access-it-from-anywhere/ (http://www.noip.com/support/knowledgebase/how-to-setup-a-webcam-and-access-it-from-anywhere/)

Why, there's even a free iPhone app but it's not clear whether it relies on clouds.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/icamviewer-cctv-camera-ip/id346469891?mt=8 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/icamviewer-cctv-camera-ip/id346469891?mt=8)

And, I'm still not sure whether any of them tell how to link to facial recognition databases.  :-[
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on July 30, 2016, 04:34:46 PM
One of the (secret) methods police are using now is creating social media (Facebook) accounts. The police fake accounts are often friended with and/or pretending to be known criminals. So when a security camera catches an image of a thug selling drugs (or even a terrorist at the airport) police can load the image to Facebook and let their facial recognition identify the person for tagging. An EXCELLENT use for cloud tech.

That's not new. I recall reading about a system called Telescreen that could identify criminal intent, with something so small as a facial expression resulting in arrest. That was written about more than 50 years ago by some guy named Orville or Ohwell or something like that.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: HA Dave on July 30, 2016, 09:05:47 PM
....... a few seconds of laborious web searching with Bing found nearly 15 million pages ............ And, I'm still not sure whether any of them tell how to link to facial recognition databases.  :-[

Looks like you've got some reading to do.
Title: Re: Good advice for HA device suppliers
Post by: dhouston on August 16, 2016, 11:46:49 AM
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/08/22/londons-super-recognizer-police-force?mbid=gnep&intcid=gnep&google_editors_picks=true (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/08/22/londons-super-recognizer-police-force?mbid=gnep&intcid=gnep&google_editors_picks=true)

The link above is about a special London police unit composed of officers who have proven to be far above average at facial recognition. It's a very long, in-depth, nerdy article that few here will want to wade through but there is one paragraph that addresses some of the misinformation in this thread. I quote the beginning of that paragraph below.

Quote
After the 2011 London riots, the Met gathered two hundred thousand hours of CCTV footage. Computer facial-recognition systems identified one rioter. Gary Collins, the super-recognizer, identified a hundred and ninety.
>*<