X10 Community Forum

📱X10 WIFI => 🧾Wish list => Topic started by: Tuicemen on December 27, 2017, 01:32:11 PM

Title: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on December 27, 2017, 01:32:11 PM
I've been asking for this since the first wm100 prototype was created B:(
I've been told authinx wishes to do this but the manufacture is dragging their feet. Maybe it is thought I'm the only one wishing this ::) :'
However if this was released we wouldn't have to wait for Authinx to find a developer to create something.
Maybe with enough votes it will be seen as something that should be pushed harder on the manufacturer. ::) :'
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Knightrider on January 18, 2018, 07:56:15 AM
Remember Bluewatch? If we had an SDK for this unit and some conditional logic, I could automate the porch lights when my phone connected to the home WiFi and it was dark outside.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on January 18, 2018, 08:02:29 AM
The protocol being published would make this a very appealing device to every one.
This would allow communication to it directly and expand everyone's HA setup beyond what the app is capable of and may never be capable of.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: dave w on January 18, 2018, 10:51:32 AM
I've been told authinx wishes to do this but the manufacture is dragging their feet.
Maybe with enough votes it will be seen as something that should be pushed harder on the manufacturer. ::) :'
I'm confused. I thought the China manufacturer worked for Authinx (?). 
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Noam on January 18, 2018, 11:04:50 AM
I would also like to see an SDK, preferably a multi-platform one, so software could be written for Windows, iOS, Linux, Android, as well as other popular languages (PHP, Java, Perl, Javascript, Python, etc).
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on January 18, 2018, 11:15:05 AM
There will be no SDK I was told this from day one. :(
Since this is a internet of things device, once you know the protocol for the get, push, pulls (the protocol) you can use it with any platform.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: HA Dave on January 18, 2018, 12:01:36 PM
There will be no SDK I was told this from day one. :(

An open SDK would be awesome. Has anyone  :' popped one of these baby's open yet? Or... any of the hubs out there for that matter?
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: racerfern on January 18, 2018, 01:57:47 PM
Quote
I'm confused. I thought the China manufacturer worked for Authinx (?).

A month or two ago there was another post that seemed to imply the manufacturer was in charge, not Authinx. I'm not going to bother trying to find it, but I remember being taken aback by the comment. I won't mention who the poster was; that I do remember.

Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on January 18, 2018, 02:32:23 PM
Quote
I'm confused. I thought the China manufacturer worked for Authinx (?).

A month or two ago there was another post that seemed to imply the manufacturer was in charge, not Authinx. I'm not going to bother trying to find it, but I remember being taken aback by the comment. I won't mention who the poster was; that I do remember.


It may have been me or dhouston! I remember the post as well, just not the full details.

Authinx has the manufacture supplying them units but that doesn't mean they have to supply all info without charge.
I believe that may be the sticking point or the protocol was in such a mess they didn't wish to reveal that.
Authinx was so far in it was to expensive to go elsewhere by that time.
The Manufacture has never said no to supplying the protocol they just have ignored requests for it.

As for a SDK I'm told it is just to expensive to have the current developer create.
And the protocol would be required for that as well.

Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: dave w on January 18, 2018, 03:04:53 PM
Quote
I'm confused. I thought the China manufacturer worked for Authinx (?).
Authinx has the manufacture supplying them units but that doesn't mean they have to supply all info without charge.
OK I got it now. And that does make sense for a contract manufacturer.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: racerfern on January 18, 2018, 03:07:27 PM
Quote
I'm confused. I thought the China manufacturer worked for Authinx (?).
Authinx has the manufacture supplying them units but that doesn't mean they have to supply all info without charge.
OK I got it now. And that does make sense for a contract manufacturer.

That should have been negotiated before it got this far. Now the manufacturer is looking for a homerun.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on January 18, 2018, 03:13:30 PM
That should have been negotiated before it got this far. Now the manufacturer is looking for a homerun.

I agree, there were several negotiation issues that were over looked and not just by Authinx, the Manufacture also messed up with the developer they got, that is another reason no SDK
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: HA Dave on January 18, 2018, 08:21:40 PM
.... there were several negotiation issues that were over looked......... another reason no SDK

International negotiations, product development, and virtual property laws..... doesn't sound all that complicated  :'
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: toasterking on January 19, 2018, 03:43:35 PM
My WM100 has not arrived yet, but it would be interesting to sniff the packets and see how protected the WiFi communication from the app to the hub is.  If the binary data is sent without encryption, reverse engineering the stream should be feasible.  If it is sent encrypted but the data is deterministic (i.e. they're not appending random data to the frames to obfuscate the resulting encrypted stream), then it's probably still doable albeit a bit more esoteric, and possibly requiring a MITM approach.  (Note that I'm not necessarily volunteering myself!  ;))

But yes, I'd much prefer an intentional release of the protocol with accompanying documentation and a promise not to break it with a firmware update.  And I'd rather not make it more difficult for Authinx or their manufacturer to control/protect their IP.

Regardless, dooming this device to live the rest of its life chained to one smartphone app would be criminal.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on January 19, 2018, 03:57:28 PM
I actualy started some work at hacking the Wm100  I found the app uses the standard Internet of things connection  protocol you need the info contained in the QR code as it contains the conection string the wm100 expects. Next you could utilize chromes postman to send the post put get commands.
Wireshark mau also be useful  but unless the WM sent back an error stating what it was expecting your left guessing.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on January 23, 2018, 06:18:19 AM
From a recent email communication it appears this is still a planed thing.
Quote
I do understand the desire though and hopefully we can provide some code later on down the road to help in that endeavor,.......
Interestingly I never asked about the protocol, I had mentioned I was able to setup the WM100 with a PC, which they took to mean I was asking for that option. ::) :'
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: toasterking on January 23, 2018, 04:58:39 PM
Quote
hopefully we can provide some code later on down the road
This is at least much better than silence!
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: whitedavidp on February 03, 2018, 03:53:14 PM
I actualy started some work at hacking the Wm100  I found the app uses the standard Internet of things connection  protocol you need the info contained in the QR code as it contains the conection string the wm100 expects. Next you could utilize chromes postman to send the post put get commands.
Wireshark mau also be useful  but unless the WM sent back an error stating what it was expecting your left guessing.

Hello. I just saw the WM100 listed for sale. And I am quite interested. But I would be very much less enthusiastic if this requires an internet connection to work as do many of the wifi thermostats, etc. I am looking for local network control only and would like to be able to control it from a command line in the way I do my Belkin and TP-Link pug in modules. Have you any idea if this is possible? Thanks
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on February 03, 2018, 03:58:54 PM
Currently the only way to setup the WM100 is via the app.
It doesn't require an internet connection but does require a WiFi router to connect to your Phone and the app.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: whitedavidp on February 05, 2018, 07:39:31 AM
I sent this same message to X10 support. Think I should post their response so others can be aware:

Hi David,

I am sorry.  Unfortunately, at this time, it does require an internet connection.  We understand there are many that feel the same as you do and are in talks about what we can do to avoid an internet connection.  Unfortunately, there is no other information regarding that and would not expect something like that to be made available anytime soon.

Thanks,

X10 Support

Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: whitedavidp on February 05, 2018, 07:41:44 AM
Currently the only way to setup the WM100 is via the app.
It doesn't require an internet connection but does require a WiFi router to connect to your Phone and the app.

Hmm. This conflicts with what I was just told (and posted here) from X10 support. They said:

Hi David,

I am sorry.  Unfortunately, at this time, it does require an internet connection.  We understand there are many that feel the same as you do and are in talks about what we can do to avoid an internet connection.  Unfortunately, there is no other information regarding that and would not expect something like that to be made available anytime soon.

Thanks,

X10 Support


So if you are correct that an internet connect is NOT required, that would be very good indeed. Please advise. Thanks
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Knightrider on February 05, 2018, 07:51:23 AM
I just tried connecting to the WM100 with my modem disconnected from my router.  It didn't work.. I was on the same LAN as the Wm100.

Reconnected the router to the modem, restarted the app and it worked.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on February 05, 2018, 08:18:50 AM
I was sure I had tested this prior.  B:(
I went to my cable modem and disconnected the cable  and it still worked. I then realized I disconnected the cable phone modem B:(
Argh..... that's most likely what I did the first time I tested B:( :-[
Man, I've been doing some senior things of late!  :-[
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: dhouston on February 13, 2018, 08:52:49 AM
Two things are needed along with releasing the protocol. Allow local control and add a pass-through function similar to the CM15A's transceive-housecodes function. Then one could write applications to run on things like the RPi3 that need not know about defined devices.

However, given the way they are using QR codes, I suspect Hades will be hosting the Winter Olympics before we see changes like these.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on February 13, 2018, 09:09:09 AM
Without individual polls for each they most likely will get overlooked as possible adds. :(
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on February 14, 2018, 07:47:49 AM
I believe most things can be implemented with the protocol and not require users to wait on a Developer half way around the world to add code.
Even a Voice skill could be developed by anyone with the protocol and a little programing knowledge.
I know of at least 3 ways I could implement voice control without creating a skill if I had the protocol.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: HA Dave on February 14, 2018, 01:02:59 PM
I believe most things can be implemented with the protocol and not require users to wait on a Developer half way around the world to add code.

Yeah.... I don't know about attitudes in all nations... but most people in the US are pretty accepting of foreign code writers.  :'   

Even a Voice skill could be developed by anyone with the protocol and a little programing knowledge. I know of at least 3 ways I could implement voice control without creating a skill if I had the protocol.

I've had voice control for years..... and nothing comes close to the control given via Alexa.... it could even work through the car speakers. I don't think there is anything X10 could do to mess-up this great new product..... other than delay it's required 'skills".
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on February 14, 2018, 02:22:27 PM
Yeah.... I don't know about attitudes in all nations... but most people in the US are pretty accepting of foreign code writers.  :'   
I'm not knocking foreign code writers the developer has done an excellent job thus far.
What I'm saying is anyone can create a skill Amazon made that possible.
Since the developer is working on the app creating a skill takes them away from that any bugs in the app will get worked on firsts before moving to something else. Being the other side of the world creates delays in bugs being reported and fixed even though they may be small they are there 

Quote
I've had voice control for years..... and nothing comes close to the control given via Alexa.... it could even work through the car speakers. I don't think there is anything X10 could do to mess-up this great new product..... other than delay it's required 'skills".
I believe releasing the protocol would speed up not delay a skill being created.
True one may be created by someone else and it not be an official X10 skill but then users would have a choice once an official one was developed.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Knightrider on February 14, 2018, 02:25:32 PM
Releasing the protocol would open up many possibilities and many more apps.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: HA Dave on February 14, 2018, 03:23:25 PM
......anyone can create a skill Amazon made that possible.

True... but will it be compatible with any (and every) software/app update that would normally materialize out of X10? Let alone any and everyone else.

Since the developer is working on the app creating a skill takes them away from that any bugs in the app will get worked on firsts before moving to something else.

I had eight updates on 8 different apps on my phone last night. Updates are as normal as rain around here. If the skill has to wait for the updates and upgrades to stop..... the WM100 will never live up to it's potential.

Being the other side of the world creates delays in bugs being reported and fixed even though they may be small they are there 

Well... then wouldn't being across the country in Texas do the same? And what about across national boundaries? Too bad we can't figure out a way to standardize the speed of electrons. If we could..... I'd bet these posts "here" would show up in China about as fast as they do.... just down the street.

The facts are simple (IMHO). Amazon and Google are selling their devices by the MILLIONS. If any HA product wants to be viable they need to jump on that bandwagon (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=fPKEWv3XJdLt5gKisLjoCg&q=define+bandwagon&oq=define+bandwagon&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l8.1689.6462.0.7961.18.13.0.3.3.0.176.1434.5j8.13.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.16.1461.0..46j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i46k1j0i10k1.0.LBVW4SP5H6U).

Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: HA Dave on February 14, 2018, 03:36:39 PM
Releasing the protocol would open up many possibilities and many more apps.

True. But you snooze you lose. The original X10 kept clinging to their tiny little cameras... and depended on a voyeur trade to stay afloat. Meanwhile every HA guy was thinking infinite code addresses using the IP protocol. Long before it was done. We also thought and experimented with voice control LONG before it was made easy.

I think... there is a lot to be said for NOT being completely WiFi and/or cloud dependent. X10 has a niche... and that's good. But I also think it's a good idea to pander to the MILLIONS of new HA guys with a Echo or Google Home on the desktop or by their easy chair.

IMHO.... X10 needs a skill... yesterday.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on February 15, 2018, 01:53:18 AM
Actually this is not the thread to be discussing the merits of another wish.
Those argument should be placed in that poll thread to keep it in the lime light. ;)

True WM100 firmware upgrades would mean a protocol update in most cases, but it should not stop existing things created with it from working. True things made with Cm15 SDK first version will not work with todays AHP but that was due to a simple coding error where case sensitivity was an issue. (the protocol never changed for it that would have required a hardware upgrade as the firmware was not upgradable)
The CM11 is so popular still because the protocol was released for it.
The CM15 managed to stay afloat because of the SDK(not the Protocol)
The CM15 protocol would have meant any OS could have an app for it.

I argued to X10 WTI the need for Phone control when the SDK was first release and was told there was no demand. ::) rofl
With the SDK I created a program that allowed Phone control from anywhere in the world using a touch tone phone.
This was long before smartphones were on the scene. Most homes only had dial up internet then and wi-fi capable routers were only in their infancy . That application still works today and no internet connection is required. ::) :'

The protocol will keep the WM100 alive should something happen to the developer of the app.
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: HA Dave on February 15, 2018, 03:28:38 AM
The protocol will keep the WM100 alive should something happen to the developer of the app.

I am all in for the protocol release. But I don't expect to see it. I think its best to plow ahead with control over what we actually have control over. I am old man, former military. And once a boy scout, I like being prepared. I can even about half-way relate to preppers.

But I would NOT plan on modules and existing programing to be functional for years into the future.... as they were in decades past. Things are changing FAST. Preppers worry and stockpile for future use. But this is a dynamic technology now. Todays most valued devices and functions will be useless and worthless in a short time. We can't automate the future! We can only automate today.

We don't want to concern ourselves with re-fighting yesterdays battles... with tomorrows technology. No one can actually do that. 
Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on February 15, 2018, 03:49:57 AM
I also like to be prepared (old boy scout too). rofl  But I'm not a Prepper ( at least I don't see my self as that)
I don't expect to see the protocol any time soon :( but I'm hopeful!
True many electronics don't last long now a days nor does much software if not kept upto date.
Many of my old X10 devices just refuse to die  :)%
I just hope the Willy 100 out lasts them. ::) :'

Title: Re: Release the WM100 protocol
Post by: Tuicemen on July 02, 2018, 06:56:51 AM
I started to mess around with wireshark listening in on traffic to & from the WM100 while it was in beta testing.
I believe the WM100 to be using MQTT which a few others have reported as well.
My experiance with MQTT is next to nill.
However using Google I have discovered some disturbing info. Although MQTT is capable of using authorization less then half of the brokers use it. :o
It may be possible to hack the WM100 with MQTT most MQTT devices use the mac address of the device as authorization (if any).
The apps require a scanning of the QR code so this info as well could be the authorization if the developer is using authorization.
There is lots of info on hacking IOT devices with MQTT on the web so I suspect an end user will have hacked this and setup their own broker before long. If they publish their progress we may have no need for an official WM100 protocol. >!