X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: scali2018 on February 14, 2018, 12:28:31 PM
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I picked up a Leviton whole house noise filter to try and help with some intermittent problems. The unit goes around the main, incoming neutral wire in the breaker panel and then attaches to the 2 (or 3) different phases. When I went to install it at the main panel I found that there are 2 neutral lines coming into the breaker panel. Do I need 2 of these units to effectively filter the noise?
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Are you sure one isn't a neutral and the other a ground? Depending on your location and age of the panel, they could be used interchangeably.
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There are 2 neutral (white) and 1 ground (green).
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Maybe this is what you need, but it was my understanding that the whole house filters only removed noise coming into the house from the street side of the pannel. Is that correct?
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That is my understanding as well. The problem I am experiencing is a few light randomly going on. They all seem to be controlled fine when i issue commands, and i have not been able to find any individual devices that seem to be the problem. The whole house filter was on sale for $6, so if figured it was worth a shot. Now i am just wondering if i really need two.
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....The problem I am experiencing is a few light randomly going on. ...... i have not been able to find any individual devices that seem to be the problem. .....
By "individual devices".... you do mean old X10 remotes laying in drawers somewhere...right?
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By individual devices i mean any other electrical devices int he house. I don't have any other controllers in the house, and removed the CM15 from the outlet and am using the WM100 as the only controller.
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.... I don't have any other controllers in the house, and removed the CM15 from the outlet and am using the WM100 as the only controller.
And... you still get a random ON somewhere? That isn't impossible.... but not common either. X10 PLC's are sent and received at a certain point of the electrical sine wave... not something that accidently happens on the powerline a lot.
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Thanks for the info. I am stumped at what else it could be. The switches that seem to have the issue are older, perhaps they are just starting to fail for some reason.
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Line noise can trigger devices to come on I occasionally have seen this when my backup generator comes on at my off grid place.
Finding the offending device can take a bit of time investiating.
I've never seen noise cause a x10 device to go off, but that doesn't mean it can't.
The offending device can be hard to locate especialy if it doesn't constantly cause the problem.
A look at Jeffs trouble shooting tutorials may help http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm.
A signal analyzer like the XTBM-Pro signal Analyzer (http://jvde.us/xtbm-pro.htm) has saved me hours hunting down issues.
>!
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Thanks for the info. I am stumped at what else it could be. The switches that seem to have the issue are older, perhaps they are just starting to fail for some reason.
There are lots of X10 users still using old original (brown BSR?) devices. X10 device do fail... but generally just stop working. Filtering the incoming power lines might work. If enough people are on your side of the transformer... you could be getting signals or actual PLC's from someone else. I have even read (once) of a bad (flickering?) CFL at a neighbors causing havoc for an X10 setup.
But.... I'd still check every outlet in the house for an transceiver module.... that could be being used as a lamp/appliance module. And ANY old X10 remote.
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Line noise can trigger devices to come on I occasionally have seen this when my backup generator comes on at my off grid place.
Finding the offending device can take a bit of time investiating.
I've never seen noise cause a x10 device to go off, but that doesn't mean it can't.
The offending device can be hard to locate especialy if it doesn't constantly cause the problem.
A look at Jeffs trouble shooting tutorials may help http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm.
A signal analyzer like the XTBM-Pro signal Analyzer (http://jvde.us/xtbm-pro.htm) has saved me hours hunting down issues.
>!
This is the behavior i am witnessing. I haven't seen anything go off on its own, only come on. So maybe the line filter will work.
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Since you have a cm15 it may be worth pluging it back in and connecting it to the PC running AHP.
Open the activity monitor and watch for the on commands to the lights experiencing the issues.
this may help narrow down the cause.
If it is always the same devices turning on, have you tried changing the Houscode or unitcode of them?
If so and they still come on it definately is noise and I'd look at what is on the same breaker ( any charger, fridge,tv, microwave....) ;)
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Good idea with the CM15. I will need to wipe the memory first. It seems to be the same 2 lights having the issue. I changed the codes last weekend, but no luck.
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Another thought is local control I think you are talking about older modules so they may not have local control, but if they do...
Basically, if you have a light with a module on it, you can toggle the device power switch a few times and it will turn on. If you have a device that flickers for whatever reason, it can turn itself on. I'm not an EE, so I'm not going to try to explain why that happens or how local control is implemented. In my experience, I'd rather have it disabled but that's not an option. Heck, I'd also disable dimming and soft start if it was an option.
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And... you still get a random ON somewhere? That isn't impossible.... but not common either. X10 PLC's are sent and received at a certain point of the electrical sine wave... not something that accidently happens on the powerline a lot.
There is a ceiling fixture in my office/lab with 3 CFL lights that I use for noise testing. When the noise sums together it creates a beat frequency that almost mimics an X10 transmission. I have witnessed an appliance module on that circuit switch by itself several times when those lights are on, but never when they are off.
Jeff
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It seems to be the same 2 lights having the issue. I changed the codes last weekend, but no luck.
Are the 2 lights on the same breaker?
What type of lights are on these modules?
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Complaints like this usually generate as much noise here as is on the powerline. From X10's documentation for extended commands at https://www.laser.com/dhouston/X10 xtdcode.pdf (https://www.laser.com/dhouston/X10 xtdcode.pdf)
Data is accepted bit by bit as the presence or absence of 120Khz carrier occurring after the positive or negative mains zero crossing. The acceptance window begins approximately 250 usecs. and ends approximately 900 usecs. after a zero crossing. In this window 48 or more cycle of carrier are accepted as a "1" bit and fewer than 48 as a "0" bit. Except for the Startcode, each bit of data is sent in its true and complement form.
The root of the noise problem is that X10 designers were penny-wise and noise-foolish. They saved pennies by omitting decoupling capacitors and they left unused MCU pins floating. This made switches and modules sensitive to powerline spikes which X10 acknowledged in one of their FAQs (no longer online).
You may see where others have postulated that noise generating devices might actually create valid X10 signals but they do not explain why these noise sources have a preference for ON signals, why they do not show up in CM11A or CM15A logs or how the noise manages to create the alternating 01 and 10 bits in the complex error-correction pattern required by the X10 PLC protocol.
Tuicemen's suggestion of using the CM15A log to determine whether there are stray X10 commands online is the best advice. If no commands are logged for these addresses, you can be certain that you have a noise problem.
Most noise problems are local so a whole-house filter is rarely needed.
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I've never seen noise cause a x10 device to go off, but that doesn't mean it can't.
Several years ago I had an LM465 lamp module that would frequently turn off whenever I turned on bathroom tube fluorescents. There were no X10 PLC signals logged and I could see arcing within the switch. Replacing the lamp module with an LM14A solved the issue and I later replaced the switch as well.
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Do they come "on" at the same time each time? This would tell you a "on" command coming from some where.
I had this problem several years back, when 2 houses down, they installed a pool. along with a X10 timer to run the pump everyday.
B:(
With the CM15a, I was able to see when it hit. I changed addresses and removed the house code of "D" from my house.
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You may see where others have postulated that noise generating devices might actually create valid X10 signals but they do not explain why these noise sources have a preference for ON signals, why they do not show up in CM11A or CM15A logs or how the noise manages to create the alternating 01 and 10 bits in the complex error-correction pattern required by the X10 PLC protocol.
In my case the appliance module turned both on AND off at different times. What causes it is the random beat frequency from the three noise generators summing together. I have also seen a noise source create a J Status Request. That is a very regular bit pattern on alternate half cycles. All it takes is an extra noise burst to fill in the second "1" in the "1110" start pattern.
Usually all a noise source does is block X10 modules from decoding commands. But I did catch the ESM1 reporting noise from the Cellet cellphone charger was a "Good X10" signal: http://jvde.us/x10/x10_cellet_noise.pdf
Jeff
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Usually all a noise source does is block X10 modules from decoding commands. But I did catch the ESM1 reporting noise from the Cellet cellphone charger was a "Good X10" signal: http://jvde.us/x10/x10_cellet_noise.pdf (http://jvde.us/x10/x10_cellet_noise.pdf)
The ESM1 does not actually check for a valid X10 signal by looking at 10s & 01s but only looks at the total of 1s & 0s. I don't think it even looked for the 1110 start pattern.
Before it was introduced, Brian Karras was looking at buying the rights to the ESM1. He sent me one to evaluate and I exchanged emails with Paul Beam, the designer. Paul made a deal with Elk instead but I did get a free ESM1 . I also have a schematic but don't recall if Paul sent me that or whether someone reverse engineered it.
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I just replaced the switch with an XPD3. Now the unit won't respond to an on command, but responds fine to off, and dimming. Really strange.
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What are you using to try and turn it On?
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I am using the WM100. Then i turn it on manually and can control it fine (dimmming/off).
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I saw the schematic of the ESM1 on your web site Dave.
In the Recording PLC Signas information.
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I am using the WM100. Then i turn it on manually and can control it fine (dimmming/off).
Is the Cm15 plugged in?
if so have you tried with the Cm15 unplugged?
Is the switch configured in the wm100 App as a wall switch? I'm told it will make a difference.
if so have you tried it configured as a module?
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I saw the schematic of the ESM1 on your web site Dave.
Compare that with the schematic for the XTBM, which is on the jvde.us website. I was trying to match the ESM1 price, but the parts alone cost about $80.
The XTBM and all other XTB products verify the correct number of bits AND the complimentary bit pattern before accepting a command as valid.
Jeff
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I am using the WM100. Then i turn it on manually and can control it fine (dimmming/off).
Is the Cm15 plugged in?
if so have you tried with the Cm15 unplugged?
Is the switch configured in the wm100 App as a wall switch? I'm told it will make a difference.
if so have you tried it configured as a module?
CM15 is unplugged. I tried configuring as a module and nothing works when i do that. Strange.
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I saw the schematic of the ESM1 on your web site Dave.
In the Recording PLC Signas information.
Well, DUH!
Had I read that I'd have recalled the source of the schematic.
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I saw the schematic of the ESM1 on your web site Dave.
Compare that with the schematic for the XTBM, which is on the jvde.us website. I was trying to match the ESM1 price, but the parts alone cost about $80.
The XTBM and all other XTB products verify the correct number of bits AND the complimentary bit pattern before accepting a command as valid.
Jeff
The cost is probably why Elk discontinued the ESM1.
IIRC, the XTB products also report ALL bit patterns, not just valid X10 codes. That can help with troubleshooting.
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CM15 is unplugged. I tried configuring as a module and nothing works when i do that. Strange.
Plug in the cm15 and connect it to the PC open Ahp 's activity monitor and send an on with the wm100 to see if Ahp sees it also try sending the pn with ahp.
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IIRC, the XTB products also report ALL bit patterns, not just valid X10 codes. That can help with troubleshooting.
The XTB-IIR and XTB-523 do have an option to "Return All Bits" received in real-time, but the default mode is to just accept valid commands. I used the Return All Bits mode with a digital storage scope during development to understand exactly what was on the powerline.
Jeff
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The cost is probably why Elk discontinued the ESM1.
Looking at the schematic, I doubt that parts for the ESM1 cost more than $20. I recall Elk sold it for about $100.
Jeff
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CM15 is unplugged. I tried configuring as a module and nothing works when i do that. Strange.
Plug in the cm15 and connect it to the PC open Ahp 's activity monitor and send an on with the wm100 to see if Ahp sees it also try sending the pn with ahp.
CM15 shows commands being sent. And now, like magic, everything seems to be working. B:(
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CM15 shows commands being sent. And now, like magic, everything seems to be working. B:(
What was the original switch model?
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CM15 shows commands being sent. And now, like magic, everything seems to be working. B:(
What was the original switch model?
WS12. I kept the CM15 plugged in so i can see if any stay commands are getting into the house somehow.
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WS12. I kept the CM15 plugged in so i can see if any stay commands are getting into the house somehow.
Good. That's usually the 1st step for troubleshooting this type of problem.
In addition to noise, some switches and modules will respond to powerline surges while others might react to a dip in the voltage supply. The PIC MCUs used in many have a brownout detector that will cause a reset in response to the latter.
As fate would have it, when I awoke this AM, a lamp which I had turned off just before retiring last night was on. We had a thunderstorm in the early hours and Duke Energy reported it caused a brief outage. The LampLinc 2000STW module controlling this lamp has always had a brownout issue from its introduction 13 or more years ago. A second 2000STW which is usually more volatile ignored things. The only other thing amiss was the clock on the coffee maker. All else weathered the storm.
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CM15 shows commands being sent. And now, like magic, everything seems to be working. B:(
What was the original switch model?
WS12. I kept the CM15 plugged in so i can see if any stay commands are getting into the house somehow.
I'm not familiar with the hardware details but this 2001 post to comp.home.automation showed both the cause and a fix for a WS467 switch exhibiting similar random ONs.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.home.automation/HJOVTh8Y_Ps/6vX-Nood1GIJ (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.home.automation/HJOVTh8Y_Ps/6vX-Nood1GIJ)
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I have a whole house filter in the mains cabinet. Primarily for noise. Not the issue you are trying to track down.
AHP has two tools: Find Other Computers; and Activity Monitor, which you are probably familiar with. The only thing I can add is, I have AHP on Windows 10 Pro. This way, I can access AHP with a laptop using Remote Desktop Connector and move around the house to troubleshoot. Only the PC where AHP is hosted needs Win 10 Pro, the laptop can be any version.
Set up is simple. On the host PC go to Windows Explorer, right click on This PC, then click on Properties. Click on Remote Settings, click on Allow remote connections to this computer, click OK.
On the laptop, a quick and dirty way to access is in Windows Explorer. Click on Networks, find the PC. Right click on the PC and select, Connect with Remote Desktop Connection. Happy hunting.