X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: gkamieneski on March 27, 2018, 07:06:48 AM
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I have several WS467 wall switches controlling my home's outdoor coach lights. I tried replacing the incandescent B10 bulbs with Sylvania LED bulbs. Problem is, the small current used for X10 makes the bulbs light slightly. I have an A series LED bulb with a lamp inside using a X10 lamp module and this does not happen.
Does this happen with all LED bulbs or only with some brands and not with others? I am using dimmable 40w Sylvania B10 LEDs.
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I have several WS467 wall switches controlling my home's outdoor coach lights. I tried replacing the incandescent B10 bulbs with Sylvania LED bulbs. Problem is, the small current used for X10 makes the bulbs light slightly. I have an A series LED bulb with a lamp inside using a X10 lamp module and this does not happen.
Does this happen with all LED bulbs or only with some brands and not with others? I am using dimmable 40w Sylvania B10 LEDs.
The WS467 wall switches are nice.... and a low cost entry into HA. But they aren't for use with LED bulbs. They are for incandescent bulbs only. You'll want to select a relay switch... without a current sensing feature... for the low wattage LED bulbs.
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I found Cree works.
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The WS467 is made for incandescent loads only.
They steal power through the load. This current makes the LED bulb glow or pulse when off.
Even LED bulbs that seem to work. You may damage the bulb, WS467 or both.
Adding one incandescent bulb in the circuit may calm it down.
I have tested a few brands.
Some glowed, pulsed, would go on and off with the paddle but not an X10 command, go on but not off with an X10 command.
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I have an A series LED bulb with a lamp inside using a X10 lamp module and this does not happen.
You don't state what module your using inside.
Some have local sensing removed, X10WTI actually started to do that with the soft start modules prior to going belly up.
Authinx has removed local sensing on many of their modules now offered in order to make them more LED friendly.
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Thanks everyone. Does X10 have a replacement wall switch for the WS467 that can correctly handle led bulbs? Seems the X10 technology itself is always going to require the minor current for carrying code and therefore LEDs will react to that.
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If you don't need dimming look at these:
https://www.x10.com/x10-home-automation/switches/ws469.html
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If you don't need dimming look at these:
https://www.x10.com/x10-home-automation/switches/ws469.html
Keep in mind that you'll need a neutral wire in the box for this to work, though.
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True!
Many older homes don't have a neutral wire hidden in the back of the junction box.
I keep forgetting this as my newly updated electrical now has these in all junction boxes.
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The WS467 is made for incandescent loads only.
Even LED bulbs that seem to work. You may damage the bulb, WS467 or both.............
Adding one incandescent bulb in the circuit may calm it down.
I had thought of that myself. And I tried using one (regular 60 watt) incandescent bulb and one 60 watt equivalent LED... in a two bulb fixture. It worked great and I figured I was still saving about 52 watts when on. But then I got to thinking.... long before the LED goes bad... that incandescent bulb will burn out. Which in my (old wire-twisters) mind would leave me with an Unacceptable situation.
So... I removed the LED bulb. I know it is similar to the old 7watt night-light trick. But I just couldn't be secure with the safety of it. Maybe it's my age.
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.... Many older homes don't have a neutral wire hidden in the back of the junction box....
And many newer homes built just a few years ago..... have multiple CAT5 and phone connectors in each room. I ran CAT5 and Phone in my home... at some expense and great effort. I also ran concealed speaker wires (and speakers) as well. Who knew (20 years ago) that WiFi and Bluetooth would be what it is today.
I am now charging my iPhone "wirelessly"..... and I don't even know how that technology works!
One of the great challenges and real beauty's of Home Automation is solving problems and finding solutions. That is what brings a LOT of people to HA. Whether it's to control a light from a remote location, or see an area using a camera, HA solves home design problems. Maybe we haven't [collectively] solved the "no neutral wire" problem yet.... but I am sure there are solutions out there... waiting to be found.
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I am now charging my iPhone "wirelessly"..... and I don't even know how that technology works!
It is inductive. Technically the charger base and the phone form an air core transformer, with the base as the primary coil and the phone acting as the secondary coil. Works like your electric toothbrush charging, except at higher frequencies.
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I think some old geezer named Tesla came up with the technology. Probably should have made him a millionaire by now.
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I think some old geezer named Tesla came up with the technology. Probably should have made him a millionaire by now.
Google "Scalar waves".
When Tesla said he could provide free energy to every home, scientists of the day thought he was proposing the use of his "tesla coil" to transmit wireless power around the country. He was not.
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Google "Scalar waves".
Google: A scalar wave is a purported type of electromagnetic wave that works outside physics as we know it. Scalar waves are also called 'electromagnetic longitudinal waves', 'Maxwellian waves', or 'Teslawellen' ('Tesla waves'). Variants of the theory claim that Scalar electromagnetics (also known as scalar energy) is the background quantum mechanical fluctuations and associated zero-point energies.
Oh.... now it all makes perfectly good sense. Thanks for clearing that up.
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When Tesla said he could provide free energy to every home, scientists of the day thought he was proposing the use of his "tesla coil" to transmit wireless power around the country. He was not.
And funny enough, the company that bears his name (Tesla, of course), now owns SolarCity, which actually DOES install free* solar panels systems.
* PPA and Leased systems are installed at no cost to the homeowner, and the homeowner buys the power from SolarCity at a rate that is designed to be lower than the equivalent utility rate. Ask me about it if you're interested - I'm four years in and was saving money from day 1 ;-).
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The WS467 is made for incandescent loads only.
Even LED bulbs that seem to work. You may damage the bulb, WS467 or both.............
Adding one incandescent bulb in the circuit may calm it down.
I had thought of that myself. And I tried using one (regular 60 watt) incandescent bulb and one 60 watt equivalent LED... in a two bulb fixture. It worked great and I figured I was still saving about 52 watts when on. But then I got to thinking.... long before the LED goes bad... that incandescent bulb will burn out. Which in my (old wire-twisters) mind would leave me with an Unacceptable situation.
So... I removed the LED bulb. I know it is similar to the old 7watt night-light trick. But I just couldn't be secure with the safety of it. Maybe it's my age.
Dave, what do you mean by "secure with the safety of it"? I am finding this to be a temporary solution, 1 LED, I incandescent in each pair of coach lights. Yes, in the meantime the normal bulbs will wear out, but I am still saving some energy.
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..... Dave, what do you mean by "secure with the safety of it"? I am finding this to be a temporary solution, 1 LED, I incandescent in each pair of coach lights. Yes, in the meantime the normal bulbs will wear out, but I am still saving some energy.
Never forsake safety (and the cost/expense of bad safety practices) in a effort to save a buck. It just ain't worth it. One of the great advantages of Home Automation is the safety and security if provides. But "the safety" provided is also largely part of the practices we use.
I have NO IDEA what will happens to a "incandescent only" switch/device... if/when left with any particular LED load (in this case after the regular bulb burns out). The pennies saved in electric use could vanish like the wind... with a small house fire... or even just a burnt switch or damaged expensive LED bulb.
The first criteria must be safety..... is what I meant.
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Thanks. I was just looking for some clarification on "safety". What about replacing incandescent floods in the kitchen with equivalent LEDs? Wouldn't this too be a problem or is it the coach light pair example of 1 LED, 1 incandescent bulb?
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Sounds like, to feel comfortable, I need to replace with the WS469 and wire with the neutral wire. Still wonder about other incandescent fixtures where I have replaced the incandescent bulbs with LEDs. Except those fixtures are not X10 controlled so there shouldn't be a current remaining.
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If the fixtures are not controlled by an X10 WS467 they should be fine.
If the fixtures are controlled by a manual wall switch dimmer. They maybe fine as long as the LED bulb is specified to be used on a dimmer and act OK. As not all brand dimmable LED bulbs work with all manual dimmers.
Only other thing is the fixture is totally enclosed or in a damp location. The LED bulb or its box would indicate if there where any limitations.
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Thanks, Brian.
Until I can replace the WS467s, I have gone back to incandescent bulbs. I am going to install new WS469s to deal with this. My other fixtures containing LEDs (kitchen floods and dining room candelabra) are not controlled by X10 although the latter has a dimmer switch and the bulbs are dimmable LED.
I do have an older Black and Decker outdoor module that controls an LED spotlight for the front door and holiday lighting.
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The Black and Decker FWLROD module is an appliance type module in a waterproof case. It should be fine with an LED bulb.
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Thanks, Brian. That was how I was thinking.
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Yeah... I have an entry ceiling light... wired without a neutral (home was built in 1943). I'd really prefer the light be LED as it is used a lot and being an entry give a "first impression" too. But to convert it I'd need to rewire the light and the switch. Not a project I am eager to add to the to-do-list. And... it's more important to me for that particular light to be controlled by macro and timer.... than be LED.
Other lights.... I've decided the other way... and have gone manual switch LED lighting. My kitchen I've converted to LED.... but only the over-cabinet and under-cabinet LED's are automated (both timer/macro and voice controlled).
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My home was built in 1996. Can I expect a neutral wire in my boxes? When I wired the WS467s I recall a white wire.
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My home was built in 1996. Can I expect a neutral wire in my boxes? When I wired the WS467s I recall a white wire.
There really is no way to say - it has nothing to do with when it was built (since even the *current* code doesn't require a neutral - as far as I know).
If the switch is at the end of the circuit leg (beyond the fixture), then it probably doesn't have a neutral. If the live circuit passes through the box, with the fixture beyond it, there should be a neutral in the box.
Your best bet would be to open the box and take a look.
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Yeah, I will have to pull out the switch and take a look. Without the neutral it makes no sense to order the WS469s. Since these are exterior wall switches at a door controlling coach lights framing the door, I am pretty sure there would be a neutral.
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My home was built in 1996. Can I expect a neutral wire in my boxes? When I wired the WS467s I recall a white wire.
Decades ago... it was common for electricians to run three 16 gauge lines to the over head. One Kitchen ceiling, one bathroom ceiling, and one for the rest of the overhead lights. Then they'd split the "live" wire at the light junction box and run one 16 gauge 2-wire (no ground) down to the switch. These three overhead runs would often take up nearly half of the 8 circuits in a 60 amp box. This is ancient history and shouldn't have anything to do with a home built in '96.
With that said/stated/posted..... never expect anything in a home to be done correctly (IMHO). I've actually found a recepticial wired with zipcord.
There really is no way to say - it has nothing to do with when it was built (since even the *current* code doesn't require a neutral - as far as I know).......... Your best bet would be to open the box and take a look.
You're correct. There is no actual "national code"... and practices (and codes) do vary... and sometimes are done incorrectly anyway. But... besides being a home owner and Home Automation enthusiast.... I was an old wire-twister, electrical wiring installer (many years ago). I would never recommend anyone... just jump in without a bit of forethought.
OK... sure... home wiring ain't rocket science. If it was too complex I'd never been able to do it. But there are a handful of safety protocols and procedures that are absolutely essential for safety's sake... IMHO. I'd suggest any interested person find a friend/family member/co-worker/neighbor who does know his/her way around home wiring... and ask them to give you a hand. And still... along with a helpful friend... maybe get a loan of a book from the library... and read up on home wiring... as well as doing some YouTube searching and viewing. It's nice to pick-up new skills.
Or even shop around for an electrician... and maybe have a list of desired improvements and or changes (you'd like done) for an estimate.
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I had a friend.
He said the lights in his porch kept going dim with any small load connected to an outlet.
Took it apart and someone used 300 OHM antenna Twin Lead to wire it.
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I had a friend.
He said the lights in his porch kept going dim with any small load connected to an outlet.
Took it apart and someone used 300 OHM antenna Twin Lead to wire it.
I know. We've all heard the stories and/or seen the shoddy and even scary work done. I hate to sound/read like a nitpicker with safety precautions. It is just so simple... and even very cheap... to do things right.
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O.K. opened the 2-gang switchbox that houses my WS467 (controls garage coach lights, in place of original single pole switch), and another single pole switch that controls garage interior lights.
Found 3 sets of unsheathed Romex each containing a white (neutral wire) that are twisted together with a red wire nut. 2 black wires go to the WS467 while a red and black go to the regular single pole switch.
Seems I am going to have to tap into one of those 3 white neutral wires to connect to the white lead on the WS469?
(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr298/gkamieneski/2Gang.jpg)
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I had a friend.
He said the lights in his porch kept going dim with any small load connected to an outlet.
Took it apart and someone used 300 OHM antenna Twin Lead to wire it.
E-e-e-e-y-o-w. How dumb. Shoulda used coax. rofl
Before someone sends a PM about how dangerous that is, it is ironic humor. He shoulda used lamp cord. :'
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My parent's cat used to eat my headphones. Turns out that head phone wire looks almost the same as electrical wire in things. If I can find those headphones, maybe I could send you the wire so you could rewire the box? :'
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My parent's cat used to eat my headphones. Turns out that head phone wire looks almost the same as electrical wire in things. If I can find those headphones, maybe I could send you the wire so you could rewire the box? :'
How long is it?
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Anyone see old phone lines as a cloth covered twisted pair of 20ga wire. I one saw an outlet ran on that. There was an electrician in the 50s in my hometown who used a bare ground wire as a traveller in a three way switch circuit. I have found his handiwork in at least two houses I have worked in. Both times it was by touching a "grounded" metal junction box in an attic.
The last house fire I saw involved a junction in the attic with no enclosure. Soldiered junction with friction tape on underrated wiring. Insulation blown into attic trapped heat.
The Electric Code is an outgrowth of the NFPA and insurance industry.
I highly encourage anyone with an older house to have the wiring checked out by a reputable company. Have them look at current loads, wiring conditions and even use thermal imaging. You can never be too safe.
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...... Soldiered junction with friction tape on underrated wiring......
That takes me back. I used to see the occasional [bare] wire and tube.... but (back -in-the-day) I saw lots of the soldered wires with sticky, messy, friction tape. Believe it or not... my own wiring experience does NOT pre-date wire nuts. Now... I almost feel young.
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As a non-electrician, why would wires be soldered together in the box? Seems to me the only reason to do that is if the bundle is so large that a wire nut wouldn't be capable of locking them all in. Seems to me that if there were that many wires entering a single box, it would be better to have a sub panel of some kind with a set screw type lock down for each so they could be worked on. When you solder them all together, that would be a nightmare for rewiring.
(This is a serious question. I've seen it a couple times with maybe 6 or 7 ground wires but don't understand why.)
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True story: When I went to replace my attic fan (motor finally burned out - it had been installed sometime in the 50 years before we bought the house), I found that it had been powered by tapping into the lighting circuit in the hallway (not really an issue for me), running a line to the fan's thermostat box, and then adding a switch leg from there down into the hall closet - so it could be shut off if desired.
However, I found that whoever had installed it left the HOT lead live, and switched the NEUTRAL line. Confused the heck out of me when I first opened it up. I ended up rewiring the whole thing. I fixed that problem when I was replacing the motor.
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Switched neutral? Never seen that before! B:( Neighbor asked me to come over and see why a breaker kept tripping in his house. Traced out circuit, could not find anything that was shorted although there was a direct short to ground somewhere. Thought it might be a staple inside wall. He had a home warranty policy so called them and a licensed electrician comes out. He said he did something in his breaker panel to fix it - so I was very curious what he did as I had looked in there already and saw nothing obvious (had replaced breaker previously). The electrician determined the hot (black) wire was tied to ground somewhere, so HE REVERSED the black and white wires for that circuit - black to the neutral bar and white to the breaker but did nothing else :' This reversed the polarity on the whole circuit - including about 6 outlets in his house including the garage! I could not believe his "fix" and told my neighbor this was a huge safety issue. So I returned the wiring to the right polarity in the breaker panel and set out to find the issue. I opened every electrical box in the circuit tracing the short location by disconnecting in / out leads to outlets and switch boxes. Eventually found it was a buried run going from his garage to a post light in his front yard that was on that circuit.
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I'd tar and feather that electrician, then run him out of town on a rail.
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..... why would wires be soldered together in the box? Seems to me the only reason to do that is if the bundle is so large that a wire nut wouldn't be capable of locking them all in....... (This is a serious question. I've seen it a couple times with maybe 6 or 7 ground wires but don't understand why.)
Wire nuts hadn't been invented yet. (that simple)
When wiring was first introduced... the desired method was "wire and tube" (porcelain/ceramic tubes inserted in holes drilled in rafters and floor joists, with bare wire run through the tube) with the runs or leads from that being tar-paper and cloth-wrapped wires. The leads (wire runs) were soldered to the bare wire and taped over with a old sticky cloth/tar-like tape called "friction tape".
When the "wire and tube" was abandoned.... electricians were left with the practice of solder and friction tape inside of junction boxes. I also found this (they're better with history than myself): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-on_wire_connector)
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I always called it "Knob and Tube" due to the knobs that suspended that stuff.
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O.K. opened the 2-gang switchbox that houses my WS467 (controls garage coach lights, in place of original single pole switch), and another single pole switch that controls garage interior lights.
Found 3 sets of unsheathed Romex each containing a white (neutral wire) that are twisted together with a red wire nut. 2 black wires go to the WS467 while a red and black go to the regular single pole switch.
Seems I am going to have to tap into one of those 3 white neutral wires to connect to the white lead on the WS469?
Just remove the red wire nut, twist the white from the switch into that bundle (make sure all 4 wires are securely twisted together), and then put the wire nut back on (make sure it is secure).
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As a non-electrician, why would wires be soldered together in the box?
I think this was pretty common in the "old timey days" pre plastic wire nuts. The house I grew up in, built in 1940, the wires weren't even soldered, just tight twisted with pliers and wrapped with cloth tape. Soldering would have at least added another level of mechanical safety.
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Some scary stuff in this thread, particularly the "electrician" that switched the polarity!
Switched neutrals are legal last I checked, but uncommon and not a great idea.
Solder and cloth tape splices predating wire nuts is true.
Any dimmable LED bulb should be safe on any switch, but it may not function well.
Any non dimmable LED bulb should be safe on any switch that supplies full voltage.
Most of them use switching power supplies. The worst thing you'll get is blinking.
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A large number of dimmable LED bulbs will not work on an X10 two wire wall switch. Since it gets it power through the load and made for incandescent loads only.
Some glow dimly, some only work with the local paddle, go On or Off but not both status and some make so much noise. X10 stops controlling the switch completely.
LM465 Lamp modules {both older and Soft Start} usually work better.
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I stumbled across this device that might be worth doing an experiment with. https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/collections/fibaro/products/fibaro-bypass-2-fgb-002
I don't have X10 installed in any lights right now, having switched over to z-wave, however I think this might give that little needed load to stop dimming/flickering issues.
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I stumbled across this device that might be worth doing an experiment with. https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/collections/fibaro/products/fibaro-bypass-2-fgb-002
I don't have X10 installed in any lights right now, having switched over to z-wave, however I think this might give that little needed load to stop dimming/flickering issues.
I wonder what is in there!
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I stumbled across this device that might be worth doing an experiment with. https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/collections/fibaro/products/fibaro-bypass-2-fgb-002
Interesting. Maybe a L-C network, passing just enough current to keep the dimmer alive. One owner on a blog, said it did not dissipate heat, which makes me think is probably more than a simple resistor.
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Sales page indicated:
Power consumption: < 1.4W
I would also think it maybe a resistor. So it can pass some current when switch is Off. To keep the electronics supplied with some power.
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I stumbled across this device that might be worth doing an experiment with. https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/collections/fibaro/products/fibaro-bypass-2-fgb-002
According to it's specs.... it's really small too. I think it might fit the box with the switch.... maybe.
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I don't see how it could be in the same box as the switch. Maybe the same box as the light socket
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The sales page and downloaded instructions.
So it it across the load.
I agree with Knightrider. It shows it is in the load fixtures electrical box.
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Can't shunt the load from the switch. (On two wires)
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If you have a neutral in the switch box, you could go from load to neutral, if not then at the light is how I read it.
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If I had neutral at the switch, I wouldn't need this shunt.
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The sales page and downloaded instructions.
So it it across the load.
I agree with Knightrider. It shows it is in the load fixtures electrical box.
Can't shunt the load from the switch. (On two wires)
I don't know what I was thinking..... just wishful thinking I'd guess.
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If I had neutral at the switch, I wouldn't need this shunt.
Depending on the bulb(s) being used you still might need it. Too many variables with so many different bulb manufacturers.
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Depending on the bulb(s) being used you still might need it. Too many variables with so many different bulb manufacturers.
If the switch had a neutral, what function would the shunt be providing?
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Maybe the shunt swamps everything at the lowest setting. I would assume the dimmable LED already does that though.
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O.K. opened the 2-gang switchbox that houses my WS467 (controls garage coach lights, in place of original single pole switch), and another single pole switch that controls garage interior lights.
Found 3 sets of unsheathed Romex each containing a white (neutral wire) that are twisted together with a red wire nut. 2 black wires go to the WS467 while a red and black go to the regular single pole switch.
Seems I am going to have to tap into one of those 3 white neutral wires to connect to the white lead on the WS469?
Just remove the red wire nut, twist the white from the switch into that bundle (make sure all 4 wires are securely twisted together), and then put the wire nut back on (make sure it is secure).
Sorry, just saw this and thanks. So you are saying untwist the 3 white wires and take the white that comes from the cable nearest where the WS469 is going and use that as the neutral for the X10 switch, then replace the wire nut on the 2 remaining white wires?
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No do not remove one of the White wires in the Neutral bundle.
Add the white Neutral from the WS469 to the Neutral bundle so now there are four white wires in the red cap.
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Each of the 3 white neutral wires come out of their own cable run? Wouldn't I use the 3 wires from the cable run next to the WS469 and therefore the white wire from that sheath?
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I am confused.
Does each cable have three white wires in a its own bundle or the white from each cable is bundled into a neutral bundle of 3 whites?
If each cable has its own neutral bundle. Use the bundle associated with cable to the the switch you are trying to replace.
Be careful if it involves a three way setup. Some times white is not neutral.
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Thanks, Brian.
Each of 3 cables entering the box has 1 white wire and the 3 of them are twisted together with a wire nut out of the way in a 2-gang box. It actually might be tough for the white lead of the W469 to reach this 3 white wire bundle to tie in. Thankfully, no 3-way circuit involved in this box.
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Thanks, Brian.
Each of 3 cables entering the box has 1 white wire and the 3 of them are twisted together with a wire nut out of the way in a 2-gang box. It actually might be tough for the white lead of the W469 to reach this 3 white wire bundle to tie in. Thankfully, no 3-way circuit involved in this box.
You could always just extend the lead from the switch. Take another length of white-insulated wire of an appropriate gauage, twist it into the Neutral bundle, and then use another wire nut to twist it to the lead on the switch.
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Thank you for the information.
The extension of the WS469 white sounds like a good way to go.
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White lead from W469 was long enough after all. Thanks for everyone's help as these seem to work well.
Has anyone else noticed that they don't seem to be UL certified? Any concerns? I notice that the W467s that they replaced did have the UL seal and actually on the back they indicated that they were made by Stanley.
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and actually on the back they indicated that they were made by Stanley.
I believe they were almost all made by the same X10 factory in China, and sold under various other names - Radio Shack, Leviton, Stanley. Differences are mainly cosmetic. The Stanley tabletop controller on my night stand is almost identical to the Radio Shack version on on my wife's night stand except the Stanley has independent bright/dim and all on/off buttons where the Radio Shack uses rocker switches. While many of the Leviton versions were identical to the X10 equivalent, Leviton also offered wall switches with true rocker action which may have been from a different factory.
Jeff
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Yes, but what about the lack of UL approval?
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Yes, but what about the lack of UL approval?
I would not worry about it. They are likely identical inside to the Stanley's. X10 probably did not want to pay for the certification process. UL approval isn't a requirement.
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All of mine have an UL Listed 340F on it and if it has a transmitter a FCC Database number starting with B4S.
My Radio Shack 49-1000 Security consoles sensors and remotes also have the same B4S starting ID. As X10 made it OEM along with the Black and Decker Freewire line of automation controls.
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All of mine have an UL Listed 340F on it and if it has a transmitter a FCC Database number starting with B4S.
My Radio Shack 49-1000 Security consoles sensors and remotes also have the same B4S starting ID. As X10 made it OEM along with the Black and Decker Freewire line of automation controls.
Brian, are you speaking of your WS469 units? thx.
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No I was speaking about the X10 modules I have. None of them are recent production modules. They have a UL Listed 340F designation and an E63636 file ID on them.
So do my X10 made Black and Decker Freewire modules. If you can find the E63636 file on the UL Site. It lists the device part numbers they made. Including the X10, X10Pro, Radio Shack, Heathkit, IBM. To name some I remember off hand.
I have never seen the new WS469. So I don't know if the latest module where added to the UL File.
It is also possible they maybe doing what some other manufacturers are doing. Using a less costly alternate approval company like ETL.
Someone with a WS469 maybe able to provide more information found on its label.
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It is also possible they maybe doing what some other manufacturers are doing. Using a less costly alternate approval company like ETL.
I looked into those too, but at my volume that would have added up to $50 to the price of each unit.
Jeff
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There are no laboratory certifications, front or back, on the WS469s. The WS467s were UL and CE I believe.