X10 Community Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gismo on June 10, 2018, 04:15:53 PM

Title: Itís time to move on
Post by: Gismo on June 10, 2018, 04:15:53 PM
Iím one of the users that started with the Radio Shack powerhouse units many many years ago. I have a moderate amount of x10 stuff, but  recently, with new led bulbs, phone charges, my cma15 needs to reinstall every so often, and other noise problems, itís getting to be a PITA. I donít see me going to the new WiFi unit when itís not a good as the cma15. So I think it is time to move on. With all the Alexa switches, plugs and other HA equipment dropping in price itís a no Brainer.
Just like many others, I was hoping for new x10software, a good WiFi unit and more home  automation units.

With iPhones, iPods, and my Alexa I hardly use my computer. So itís time to
Make life a little easier and put my x10 to rest. It was a fun ride.

Thanks for the forum and all the help Iíve received over the years.

Life is short, enjoy while you can !
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on June 11, 2018, 12:28:36 AM
With all the Alexa switches, plugs and other HA equipment dropping in price itís a no Brainer.

With iPhones, iPods, and my Alexa I hardly use my computer.

I will NOT have a hub that phones home, telecommunicates with a mother ship every time I want to turn a light on or off or listens and talks back to me.  Ain't a 'gonna happen.

But I'm also scrapping most of the X-10 stuff due to recurring problems.  I'm going old school though, timers and photocells.

As for PCs, I'd be lost without one.  I can't imagine typing all this on a 5" screen with no keyboard.

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on June 11, 2018, 05:39:36 AM
It is always difficult to mix old with new but not impossible.
Moving on to newer tech without fixing things that affect the old may follow your move.
Each HA protocol has its pros and cons.
The power of the CM15 is hard to find in many newer HA setups.
I moved my HA setup to a $7 Pi but still use the CM15a and a few other newer Protocols.
My Setup is not connected to my PC but it has the power of being that way.
Newer devices always have a slow options implementation but we have grown to want everything now or yesterday.

I can't imagin going back to old school options timers and Photocells.
I've been using Voice activation of things for far to long now and simple time activation of things just won't cut it.


Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: bkenobi on June 11, 2018, 06:49:00 AM
If you are planning on moving to a different standard, I would personally recommend finding an HA program that supports multiple.  I picked HG, but there are others that do the same for varying costs and with varying support systems.  If you do that, you can slowly move from one to the other and maybe even to something down the road that isn't even invented yet.  I personally am not a fan of some X10 components, but others work fine.  Mixing standards seems to be the ideal solution IMO.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on June 11, 2018, 09:33:01 AM
It is... and always has been... time to move on. Onward and upwards!

Home Automation is now, and always has been a technology driven endeavor. There ain't nothin static about Home Automation... and there never will be. Even back a decade ago when I first went with voice controlled X10 (using BVC) many wanted to control music and movie collections with voice control. None of this stuff began with Amazon's Alexa.... and it sure as hell is not going to end here.

Sure... X10 began with a remote control that could turn lights on and off remotely. What.... 43 years ago?!?!? Home Automation has been processor (computer) controlled for more than half that. And Internet integration is nothing new to anyone reading this either. And Home Automation is MUCH more than turning lights on and off.

The cloud.... a fancy way of saying server... is integral to the Internet. And the Internet... like it or not, fear it or not... is integral to modern life.

My Home Automation setup has been growing and building, evolving, and changing... since I opened my first package with the X10 logo on it. I hope the evolution NEVER stops... and I hope I can keep up with the changes too. I plan to continue to "move on" with my setup. And X10 has earned a place in that future setup too. 
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dave w on June 11, 2018, 03:40:20 PM
I will NOT have a hub that phones home, telecommunicates with a mother ship every time I want to turn a light on or off or listens and talks back to me.  Ain't a 'gonna happen.
Yep, I agree 100 percent. Just had a very bad weekend of storms. Out of 48 hours, electricity was off at least 10 hours. Yeah, I know, X10 does not work in the dark. However internet was down most of Sunday. Cell service was up and down also. So Alexa slept most of the weekend. But at least Homeseer was running house faithfully when there was power. I will not depend on cloud for home automation.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on June 11, 2018, 05:32:50 PM
I will not depend on cloud for home automation.
Nor will I, there are all kinds of stories about cloud dependent HA devices failing.
Some only fail for an hour or two but some have gone days of being inoperable. and these are when the internet was working.
Before moving to my Pi cm15 combo I placed all automation of my off grid place in the hands of the WM100 then my internet when down.
it was down for 7 days B:(
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on June 11, 2018, 07:06:23 PM
I will NOT have a hub that phones home, telecommunicates with a mother ship every time I want to turn a light on or off or listens and talks back to me.  Ain't a 'gonna happen.

Just had a very bad weekend of storms. Out of 48 hours, electricity was off at least 10 hours. Yeah, I know, X10 does not work in the dark. However internet was down most of Sunday...ÖÖ... I will not depend on cloud for home automation.

Nor will I..................I placed all automation of my off grid place in the hands of the WM100 then my internet when down.

Actually, every bit of modern civilization that is available to me.... is dependent on the Internet and it's servers (AKA "the cloud"). I can't buy a tank of gasoline or order a burger from a fast-food place... if Internet connectivity is down. And... I believe we're all in this same predicament. I am fortunate that it doesn't frighten me. Modern civilization is both complex and fragile... and I can live with that. I have no desire or need to lie to myself about "real life". 

I lost power here a few years back... a huge storm... tremendous damage. We were without power for seven (7) days. The wife and I were able to drive out of the effected area to connect to the Internet and also to make phone calls. And I have a generator that I ran enough each day to keep our frozen food solidly frozen. I have a propane grill with a side burner. We got by. It was boring!

I am beginning to understand.... that apparently many here don't use automation for much other than lighting... and that's OK. I know many HA users (like myself) were attracted to HA merely to solve a problem. Maybe... it was wishing to have the a light on outside at night... and the switch to the only outside light was downstairs in the garage. Perfect use for X10. Just like back in the old days when houses were under-wired.... and a rheostat on a 200 watt bulb ceiling light "seemed" to solve that problem.

Of course now-a-days... in the modern world.... lighting is a mere fraction of a home electric's use. Like most people now-a-days.... I require electric for entertainment and communication-connectivity MUCH MORE.... than for lighting. And the Internet... and the servers that support modern Internet applications (the cloud) play a huge and irreversible in my modern and interesting life. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on June 11, 2018, 10:55:39 PM
^^  We've had the same thing, but we adapted.  Banks had people handing out money when the ATMs wouldn't work.  Stores took cash or checks and extended credit to people they knew.  Gas stations realized they needed to have small generators on hand to power the pumps.  Things went back to simpler times for a few days -- old school.  We got through it fine.

People get conditioned to rely on them interwebz.  Until they don't work.  They then learn to go old school.  Just in case.

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Knightrider on June 12, 2018, 03:12:57 AM
My local gas station still has the ability to make a carbon imprint of my Master Charge and issue a paper receipt if their electronic readers go down.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Noam on June 12, 2018, 05:38:35 AM
My local gas station still has the ability to make a carbon imprint of my Master Charge and issue a paper receipt if their electronic readers go down.
At least two of the credit cards I carry no longer have embossed numbers. ;-)
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on June 12, 2018, 10:08:25 AM
People get conditioned to rely on them interwebz.  Until they don't work.  They then learn to go old school. Just in case.

Exactly! All systems eventually fail... if only very temporarily. That's why I own a generator to begin with. If need be.... I can erect a tent... and camp. I was in the Army, and I know I don't need no solid structure. A tent will be just fine. EXCEPT... I don't want to live like a Californian!

I like living in a house... a SMART house... with Internet... and wonderfully useful internet applications. I love this HA stuff and all the great things it does for me and my wife. And I am NOT going to turn away from technology... and buy a horse or live in a tent... because "myQ" service blinked for an un-noticeable period of time one day last month.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Gismo on August 15, 2018, 12:36:24 AM
Just a quick update. I have been off x10 for about 5 weeks. Yeah it was hard to do.
Right now Iím using Alexa with WIFI plugs (10 @ around $9 each) and IFTTT working 100% great so far no glitches.  The app that controls the plugs is good. Iíve been in contact with the WIFI control app developer requesting some changes and they are open to my suggestions.
Again, X10 worked well for many years, itís time for me to box x10 stuff up for the next garage sale.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on August 15, 2018, 07:23:47 AM
I wouldn't be getting ride off all your X10 modules just yet. It is always nice to have extra modules which use a different protocol on hand even.
You don't say which brand Wi-Fi modules your using but I hope they have local control available as you'll want that at some point. I'm not a big fan of IFTTT but I guess I've not played with it enough.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: ceedee on August 15, 2018, 11:49:49 AM
X10 clearly subscribes to the KISS principle.  I love the low-tech aspect of the entire system.  Less to go wrong.  Iíve used them since the 80s, and they just work.

Iím slowly moving to the 21st century, kicking and screaming!  The WM100 is a nice way to bridge the gap, but it has its limitations...hopefully, that will be addressed over time.

I now have a hybrid setup.  Some X10, some WiFi bulbs and plugs.  Drives my wife crazy!  With an open API, apps like Stringify and IFTTT can give X10 some legs.

Iím not ready to abandon X10, but I suspect that the WM100 is my last X10 purchase.  The times they are a changin'.
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 15, 2018, 12:59:52 PM
…. I’m not ready to abandon X10, but I suspect that the WM100 is my last X10 purchase.  The times they are a changin'.

Yes... the times... they are most certainly changing (link to YouTube video of Bob Dylan singing the song (https://youtu.be/e7qQ6_RV4VQ), 1964). But then again... when were the times not changing.

I recently upgraded and improved my Home Theater. Although I retained my ability to play Blue Ray and DVD's (I have a collection of about 1000) now I mostly plan to play on-line streaming media. As others have found out... when streaming content it is best to have fast hardwired gigabit connections. So I fished CAT6 to my player/theater. No more buffering.

But the Theater lights are still controlled by X10.

Phones, computers, thermostats, cars, neighbors, coffee makers, refrigerators, ovens and microwaves..... what the heck isn't tying-up my broadband now-a-days. Oh wait..... I remember now. The old X10 PLC and RF use otherwise un-used ways to communicate. I think there might be... at least for now... an advantage with X10. As long as I have power (and a palmpad in a drawer)…. I have some amount of remote control.

X10 is still a very practical, dependable and useful technology. I just placed an order on-line Sunday night at X10.com. 

But I am no Luddite either! My X10 setup is totally integrated with Amazon's Alexa... I use 3 echo devices (and other flavors of Home Automation devices too). And like others here at the forum... I am still looking for even better ways to use X10 in my automation setup.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: brobin on August 15, 2018, 06:29:27 PM
Many of us here have been using X10 for many years (since 1984 in my case) and have lots of X10 stuff that works well enough so as not to force us to change.  I once converted a home, that I've since sold, to Insteon when it first came out and they offered 50% to introduce the product but now I'm still using using X10 since I'll likely never have to buy another module.  While I'm still an X10 user, I'm not a revenue generating customer. The problem for X10 is to attract new users and, frankly, they're doing virtually nothing to make that happen.  Z-Wave and the various wifi flavors have captured the market and X10 can't even come up with an Alexa Skill or resolve bug fixes quickly.  I'm not moving on anytime soon but I'm not making X10 any money either.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Gismo on August 15, 2018, 07:54:21 PM
Iím a user from the 80ís also,  But I bought most of my x10 stuff when their prices were at an all time low.
I keep an older computer just for the software for the  CM15A. I donít think they will ever have new software. I canít wait to trash that old computer. And your talking to someone that just got rid of my old Commodore PET Computer 1978 with a lot of software that I wrote myself. (Yeah Iím old)
I never had luck with my ActiveEye Motion Sensors, to many false triggers, batteries donít last.
The black and white x10 cameras are useless.
No more having to reset my CM15A when it looses connection. No more unplugging chargers that stop my x10 modules from working. It was driving my wife nuts.
Donít get me wrong X10 was great but times are changing. (Yeah I also donít use my slide rule anymore lol)

Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 15, 2018, 07:55:05 PM
……….. X10 can't even come up with an Alexa Skill …..

To be honest.... if it wasn't for the generosity of racerfern sending me his old Homeseer Hometroller.... I might have found another solution myself.

I had already jumped on ihome devices (the very day) when an Apple update added WiFi automation. Then I discovered Alexa.... and... thankfully that's when racerfern hooked me up with Homeseer. Homeseer communicates with BOTH my X10 and Alexa.... allowing me full integration.

Honestly.... I was shocked and surprised that so many here at the forum are "cloud shy". I myself am so pro man-machine integration... even when I weight myself nude... I hold my iPhone in my hand.

But now I am experimenting with a Raspberry Pi and open source software (as are others here) hoping to help bring the entire X10 world along to the cloud-based AI world of automation. There is nothing to lose here! It's all win, win, win.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: brobin on August 15, 2018, 11:32:15 PM
I'm all for cloud based but things can & do happen. In fact it just did. We left on a 3 week trip 3 weeks ago (got back last night) and a few days after we left (of course) I could no longer remotely connect to any of the things like the HA controller, t-stats, garage doors or cameras. Couldn't even access the router.  The Xfinity app showed that the modem was connected.  First thing I did on returning lasting night was investigate and found that the fairly new Cyberpower 625 UPS that only the router is plugged into died.  B:( I haven't cracked it open yet to check the battery but the reset button and power switch do nothing.  I do know that some UPS systems will shut down if the battery is bad even if line power is available.  While I couldn't access anything remotely, the Stargate, Lutron and Honeywell t-stats, all having minds of their own, continued to run their schedules.  The security system has its own cellular communicator and was not affected.  Why does this stuff always happen while one is away? 
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 16, 2018, 12:27:26 AM
I'm all for cloud based but things can & do happen...Ö.

We are in full agreement! I am always amazed when people are "surprised" when their car breaks down... their PC gets a virus... or they get sick themselves. Everything breaks.

Most of us here are old enough to trade "used-to-could" stories about how quickly cars tires used to wear out, and don't forget new sparkplugs and tune-ups (back in the day). Or stories like..... the time I tied up the phone line for 4 hours... downloading the new (25 megabyte) Netscape Browser.
 
Of course there will be problems with all new.... and OLD technologies. And if there was a way to somehow break-proof our lives... we'd all jump at the chance. But no such world exists. Fear of change is common.... and crippling.... for individuals, families, businesses, industries and even nations. If we can't discard our fears.... we can (and must) compartmentalize them. The future will be here in the morning (if not in the middle of the night).
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: VinRin57 on August 16, 2018, 07:52:48 AM
My only .02, as a newbie using X-10 since 1993, is that Authinx has dragged their feet every inch of the way. They dangled a carrot for 3 years? to release the WiFi unit (maybe more, I have the emails somewhere). It has taken months to release an app update to correct one issue let alone an update that would include suggested improvements....  It speaks volumes that they are either not interested or underfunded.  And during this time period they probably lost a lot of customers to other companies who jumped on cloud automation.

My only concern now that I finally have the WiFi unit is, in the event something happens, then what happens to the server?
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 16, 2018, 10:04:05 AM
…...Authinx has dragged their feet every inch of the way.…

Yes. Yes they have. But... don't forget this technology has been very fast in changing. I was surprised when Apple put Home Automation features on their iphones. And... Alexa was a total game changer. Most people did not see it coming... and were NOT prepared for all this change... .Authinx included.
 
My only concern now that I finally have the WiFi unit is, in the event something happens, then what happens to the server?

I cleaned my "Man Cave" closet a few weeks ago. Originally, the Man Cave was my Home Office, then it was called my Nerd-Nasium. I had a closet full of outdated, defunct tech devices. I had 2 different brands of Bluetooth/phone app-operated IR remote extenders. They burned through batteries like a Christmas toy. And as sales dropped their apps weren't updated and could no longer function with the latest versions of my phones OS. They became useless.

And like lots of other now outdated tech.... I threw them away. Briefly (I imagine) I knew the heartbreak that a hoarder tries to avoid.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Noam on August 16, 2018, 11:42:35 AM
Why does this stuff always happen while one is away?

I returned from a trip recently to find out my A/C wasn't working. I actually found out a few hours before I got home (I landed at my connection, opened up my thermostat app, and saw that it thought the system was running - but the temperature hasn't come down at all after 12 hours). By the time I finally got home about 5 hours later, I'd used enough of my remote tools to determine that the outside compressor unit wasn't running, but the blower (part of the furnace in the basement) was working.

A few minutes with a multimeter led to my suspicions that the dual-run capacitor had failed, and 5 minutes later I had it changed out (that's why I have spare on hand), and the system was running again. I was away for 2 weeks, and the A/C failed the last day of my trip (it had gotten hot enough to kick it on earlier in the trip).
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dave w on August 16, 2018, 02:41:11 PM
I canít wait to trash that old computer. And your talking to someone that just got rid of my old Commodore PET Computer 1978 with a lot of software that I wrote myself. (Yeah Iím old)
Me too. I almost bought an Osborn, could only afford Atari 800 and Commodore 64.  >!
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 16, 2018, 09:59:30 PM
Ö. Me too. I almost bought an Osborn, could only afford Atari 800 and Commodore 64.

I had a Vic-20 (Ö.1980-81?). Only recently.... have I completely given up on keeping a desktop for myself (although my wife still prefers her desktop). But... I have considered forgoing the laptop for a tablet. And more and more.... my phone is getting closer to all I need.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Brian H on August 17, 2018, 07:07:54 AM
I built and used a Heathkit H8. Then a Heathkit H89.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: lviper on August 17, 2018, 08:19:21 AM
I built and used a Heathkit H8. Then a Heathkit H98.

Now you bring back memories. I remember sitting there watching my dad build a Heathkit computer when I was a kid. I don't remember the model but it was sometime in the early to mid 70's. I remember it ran tiny basic and you saved the programs on a cassette tape. He also built many other Heathkit things like scopes, meters and ham radio equipment.

Gosh, thanks for bringing back all those great memories.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: JeffVolp on August 17, 2018, 10:46:06 AM
I built and used a Heathkit H8. Then a Heathkit H98.

I go back further than that.  My first computer was based on the Motorola MC6800 development kit using a teletype and paper tape for I/O.  Then I built an expanded version similar to the SWTPC 6800 with a CUTS interface to store programs on an audio cassette.  1's and 0's were different frequency tone bursts.  I was going to build my own monitor from scratch, but then Heathkit came out with the clunky H9 and then the H19, which was a significant improvement.

When floppy drives became available (at $450 each), I built an interface board and bought a copy of the FLEX operating system, which was similar to DOS.    That computer was my workhorse for many years until I bought an Epson XT clone.

I also purchased a Atari 400, which I modified with "real" keyboard.  Four of us developed "Powerstar" for the Atari 400/800, which may be the only graphic adventure game available on a 16K cartridge:

  http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-powerstar_4079.html

Now we have 4 tower computers and 2 laptops.  Most are running Win7 Pro, but two towers still have XP to run the older software.

I started using X10 products around the time I built that first computer.  Computers have evolved a bit since then, but X10 devices are essentially the same.  How is that for some history...

Jeff
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: docbell on August 17, 2018, 12:50:40 PM
How is that for some history...

Familiar... the '70s. I built laboratory data acquisition systems using the Microware OS-9 RTOS (not to be confused with OS-anything else) running on 6809-based, SS-50 bus boxes from Smoke Signal Broadcasting (an inauspicious name, if there ever was one). You could program in "real-time" Basic, but if you needed a driver, you just fired up the assembler...
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: docbell on August 17, 2018, 12:54:26 PM
This has been a great discussion, but it leaves me feeling a bit unclear on the original question of whether "it's time to move on" from X10. I think I've asked that question seriously at least half a dozen times since I started using X10 back in 1979. Each time I was running into to a different set of problems and limitations of the hardware and protocol. Each time the answer was a different mix of resolving existing issues, re-configuring the system, and adding new types of hardware and software. I never reached the point where it was worth the trouble and expense of tearing out and replacing the part of the X10 system that was working well. As a result, I have a very "mixed" system (X10, WiFi, Z-Wave, Zigbee, and 433 Mhz). The real hurdle has been controlling the number of different bits of software needed and getting them to play well together. I suspect that a lot of the "move on" sentiment comes from a hope that there is a single (inexpensive?) hardware/software package out there that can solve everything for the foreseeable future. I have my doubts, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: JeffVolp on August 17, 2018, 03:01:22 PM
From someone who has been using X10 products since they first became available, except for the HVAC system that has its own zone controller, our entire house is automated just with X10 - even irrigation and auxiliary ventilation.  Reliability is virtually 100%, and I've been working over a decade to help others achieve the same level of reliability.  If I built a new house today, I would install X10 products again because I know how to make them work.

Jeff
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dave w on August 17, 2018, 05:23:08 PM
Absolute ditto. The only thing lacking in X10,  is feedback or status. And if necessary, feedback / status can be achieved at about the same cost as a Z-Wave module.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: JeffVolp on August 17, 2018, 06:01:21 PM
The only thing lacking in X10,  is feedback or status.

The controller should know the status except in cases where devices are controlled locally.  I send "clean-up" commands at bedtime to turn off anything that had been switched on locally during the evening.  And I installed Leviton HCM06-1TW dimmer switches in those locations where the switch must send its status when controlled locally.  It also responds to the X10 Status_Request.  They are expensive, but are perhaps the best X10 switch that Leviton made.

Jeff
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Brian H on August 17, 2018, 07:20:30 PM
The older Insteon dimmer wall switches with an X10 address programmed into them. Also sent changes local paddle status changes and responded to Status Requests. Though they where not 100% compatible with X10 controllers that use the Standard Dim and Extended X10 commands. They used the Standard Dim and %Dim commands. Full On and Off did report as On or Off.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: JeffVolp on August 17, 2018, 07:31:50 PM
The older Insteon dimmer wall switches with an X10 address programmed into them.

Yes, and some of the Insteon plug-in modules reported when a local load was switched on or off.  I noticed that when developing the XTBM-Pro to report the % dim level from the Pre-set dim instruction.

Jeff
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: petera on August 17, 2018, 08:16:38 PM
Joining this discussion at a late stage but I definitely think X10 still has a place in home automation. It's strength is its simplicity and I've yet to come across a system that doesn't embrace it in some shape or fashion.

I can honestly say that if I've found some form of limitation to X10 I've managed to find a workaround to it. Unless they introduce an alternative to electricity I for one will keep on using it.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 17, 2018, 10:16:05 PM
This has been a great discussion, but it leaves me feeling a bit unclear on the original question of whether "it's time to move on" from X10...ÖÖÖ. I have a very "mixed" system (X10, WiFi, Z-Wave, Zigbee, and 433 Mhz).

The real hurdle has been controlling the number of different bits of software needed and getting them to play well together. I suspect that a lot of the "move on" sentiment comes from a hope that there is a single (inexpensive?) hardware/software package out there that can solve everything for the foreseeable future......

I think you hit that nail on the head. Lots of us have or are willing to try the newest, latest, greatest. Hence many of us have "mixed-bag setups" (me included). And... in Home Automation (like everything else)... many wish for a single, simple, solution.

The facts are.... there is no single-point-of-contact, one solution, universal fix..... for anything. Not even Home Automation.

Technology is a moving target, and so are technology based endeavors. The X10 of 1976.... was (mostly) remote controlled lighting. All this computer controlled, smart home stuff... is part of the technology that evolved around X10 users... that was then integrated into X10. And this is still happening today. Cloud computing wasn't a product of Home Automation. But Home Automation can certainly exploit (and benefit from) this technology.

And like always... new products are developed to exploit the new technologies... and products like X10 (and other protocols) adapt. The new products are NOT the "fix" and X10 is not the Home Automation panacea.

We could debate whether home automation is a lifestyle or a hobby. I think it can be either (or both)... depending on the user. But either way our automation setup can not, will not remain static. Either they malfunction and need fixes... or we feel compelled to add the neatest, coolest, newest, features and abilities to our setups. That is the nature of technology.... and technology based endeavors.

X10 works! I know that as does countless other X10 users. (ok JeffVolp has been a huge help for X10 in this regard). There is a lot of adaptation and deciding how to proceed going now among X10'ers. This may actually be the new golden age of Home Automation. I currently use X10 with my AI, Alexa devices, plus.... macros, timers, sensors, and more. There is nothing outdated about X10.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dave w on August 19, 2018, 07:46:17 PM
The older Insteon dimmer wall switches with an X10 address programmed into them.
Does anyone know if there is a list of all Insteon devices with X10 compatibility? I think I will call Insteon or smarthome customer service to see if they have a internal list maybe they would share. (Yeah, I know, that's pretty funny).
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Brian H on August 20, 2018, 06:25:19 AM
I am not too sure a list is available. After Richmond Capital Partners bought Smartlabs and Smarthome over a year ago.
From what I have read. Customer service is now a third party. Shipping is also now in a new locations.

Someone posted in one of their forums. They talked to them. Officially X10 support is gone but may still be in the modules.
Though it can disappear at any moment at their discretion. The older power line only ones are reported to support X10.
My late 2014 date code Dual Band 2457D2 LampLinc {v3.5} and 2635-222 On/Off modules {v1.3} still accept an X10 address. Though the On/Off module does not respond properly to an X10 Status Request. It reports back a M13 status even though it is using an A House Code. Just tested a v1.5 On/Off module and it seemed to take an X10 address but didn't work correctly.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 20, 2018, 10:06:59 AM
Does anyone know if there is a list of all Insteon devices with X10 compatibility?....

I wonder why you'd consider InsteonÖ as opposed to zwave or.... some other flavor of home automation product. There are so many available now. And IP based systems don't have some of the limitations as the older systems. I currently run a mix of X10 and IP based automation (including IR and the cheap wifi lightbulbs).... and they all work well together.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: x10wizard on August 20, 2018, 06:32:12 PM
Insteon modules that support X10 (based on the ownerís manuals found on Smarthome.com)

Keypads:
2334-222 Dimmer Keypad - 8 Button - White
2334-223 Dimmer Keypad - 8 Button - Ivory
2334-225 Dimmer Keypad - 8 Button - Light Almond
2334-232 Dimmer Keypad - 6 Button - White
2334-233 Dimmer Keypad - 6 Button - Ivory
2334-235 Dimmer Keypad - 6 Button - Light Almond
2487S On/Off Keypad - 6 Button - White

Switches:
2466DW Toggle Dimmer Switch - White
2466SW Toggle On/Off Switch - White
2477S On/Off Switch - White
2477SIV On/Off Switch - Ivory
2477SLAL On/Off Switch - Light Almond
2477D Dimmer Switch - White
2477DIV Dimmer Switch - Ivory
2477DLAL Dimmer Switch - Light Almond
(note: manual for 2477D does not mention X10 support, but these still do support X10 based on bench test of recently purchased 2477D V8.2 switch)

In-Line:
2442-222 Micro Dimmer
2443-222 Micro On/Off
2444-222 Micro Open/Close
2452-222 DIN Rail Dimmer
2453-222 DIN Rail On/Off
2475DA1 In-Line Dimmer
2475SDB In-Line On/Off
2477SA2 240V 30A Relay

Outlets:
2472DWH Dimmer Outlet - White
2472DIV Dimmer Outlet - Ivory
2472DLAL Dimmer Outlet - Light Almond

Misc:
1626-10 10A Plug-In Filter
2413S Serial Modem
2413U USB Modem
2450 Plug-In Low Voltage Controller

Ownerís manuals for the following do NOT mention X10 support:
2663-222 Dual On/Off Outlet - White
2663-223 Dual On/Off Outlet - Ivory
2663-225 Dual On/Off Outlet - Light Almond
2477DH Dimmer Switch High Wattage - White

Ownerís manuals for the following specifically say X10 NOT supported:
2457D2 Plug-In Dimmer (versions prior to V3.6 do have X10 support)
2634-222 Plug-In On/Off Outdoor
2635-222 Plug-In On/Off

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Brian H on August 21, 2018, 06:08:30 AM
Thank you for the information from the full manuals.
I hope they are still correct. In the past keeping manuals correct didn't see to be one of their priorities.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on August 21, 2018, 06:09:58 AM
This has been a great discussion, but it leaves me feeling a bit unclear on the original question of whether "it's time to move on" from X10. I think I've asked that question seriously at least half a dozen times since I started using X10 back in 1979. Each time I was running into to a different set of problems and limitations of the hardware and protocol. Each time the answer was a different mix of resolving existing issues, re-configuring the system, and adding new types of hardware and software. I never reached the point where it was worth the trouble and expense of tearing out and replacing the part of the X10 system that was working well.

I did.  It's all sitting on a shelf ...  well, most of it.  I still have some light switches in walls, but they're used as physical switches only as they quit working remotely years ago.  I have a CM-15 plugged in that triggers a couple of Appliance Modules on non-critical night lights.

Other than that, I've learned the system is not reliable and cannot be trusted on things that matter beyond a casual 'hey, that's kinda cool' level.  The motion detectors and photocell modules never worked and the address limitations of 'one above' or however you care to describe it was always annoying.  The old cameras, Ninja bases and RF video receivers were horrible.

Outside lights have been converted back to photocells.  Other inside devices have been converted back to timers.

I can't even sell the shelved modules because I have no idea if they would work for anyone else or not.



 
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: jwlv on August 21, 2018, 06:25:11 AM
At one time I had several dozen X10 modules. I've since moved on to WiFi smart switches such as Wemo.
But the thing that I miss the most from the X10 is the handheld remote controller. You can control 8 devices and dimmers for all of them. Sure Wemo, Philips Hue, TP-Link have their apps that can do the same thing. But I'd rather just have a separate physical remote that I can set near my couch so I can grab it any time, just like my TV remote. I don't want to fumble through a smartphone to open an app and then wait for the app to load, and wait again for the app to find all the smart switches in the house before I can even tell it to turn something on or off. That was the beauty of X10. It can do what you want and do it quickly.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Noam on August 21, 2018, 09:49:26 AM
I can't even sell the shelved modules because I have no idea if they would work for anyone else or not.

If you list what you have, you'll probably find others here who would be willing to take that risk in order to have backup hardware - or to expand their own systems. The parts aren't doing you any good sitting on the shelf, you might as well try to get a few dollars for them.

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Brian H on August 21, 2018, 11:26:30 AM
Jeff has a forum section where you could list the items.
http://jvde.us/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=v5s4akt82q545bd6ib0pu8sgf2&board=17.0
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 21, 2018, 01:04:02 PM
…..  The old cameras, Ninja bases and RF video receivers were horrible.

That is true.... by TODAYS standards... those old cameras weren't much. But in their day... they were pretty darn sharp. The resolution was pretty much equal to the TV's we watched back then. The cameras were tiny and cheap... easy to install and pretty darn flexible.

My first X10 project was the lighting in my Home Theater (which still functions great)…. my 2nd project was a camera so I could see my driveway (and then more cameras).

Of course the X10 driveway camera setup was replaced years ago.... and the system that originally replaced the X10 system... has also been replaced. AND... I am considering replacing THAT system with a Ring floodlight and doorbell setup.

Turning lights On & Off... ain't no big deal. ANY of the available setups can do that. The Wifi controlled stuff is pretty nice. But I haven't seen anything near X10's CM15A as far as programing goes. But then again.... without my HomeSeer Hometroller I wouldn't be able to control X10 lighting using Amazon's AI echo device and Alexa. Other than a few on-line hobbyists using of Raspberry Pi's.... I see no movement towards on-line control of X10.... which it used to have. How do you ask X10 users.... to go BACKWARDS?!?!

In 1975 turning a light On and dimming it using a palmpad was.... almost exciting. But in 2018.... knowing your mobile phone will (silently and automatically) report it's location to your AI device when driving home from work or a trip.... which in turn will alter the temperature at home. THAT is smart Home Automation. And X10 isn't going to accomplish that without code writers and servers. IMHO... AI devices like Google and Amazon's Alexa... are the best thing to hit Home Automation since X10's introduction.

I know..... AI [or the use of AI] provokes a Etymology, or "uncanny valley" [ i.e.creepy feeling] among some older people. So... maybe X10 can limp on selling off it's stock to an aged population that is afraid of modern technology.

X10 is still great at the basics! I have no plans to "switch-over" to another protocol. But I have switched over to HomeSeer to control my X10. Although zwave is a bit pricey for switching over my entire setup. And I have "included" other protocols that all seem to work well with my older X10 parts.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 21, 2018, 01:08:15 PM
ÖÖ.I don't want to fumble through a smartphone to open an app and then wait for the app to load, and wait again for the app to find all the smart switches in the house before I can even tell it to turn something on or off.

If I want to turn on/off a light (or TV and cable box)Ö.. I merely say (something like):  Alexa... **** light on.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on August 21, 2018, 01:13:26 PM
The Alexa routines are improving greatly allowing multi devices to be controlled via one command and she will respond with a custom reply which beats the normal "OK" response.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dave w on August 21, 2018, 08:15:45 PM
It reports back a M13 status even though it is using an A House Code.
FWIW
Interesting; M13, in ones and zeros, is all zeros. All most like the module does not know what X10 code it is, and just returns 0000 0000.
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 21, 2018, 10:47:26 PM
The Alexa routines are improving greatly ……..

Science has followed fiction for some years. Microsoft may have had a edge in the SiFi development of the Halo (https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us) Virtual Assistant (by the same name as the MS voice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortana_(Halo))). Although a long time coming (17 years) to our living rooms (and more)…. it has only begun to become the part of our individual lives... it is sure to become. Yet... Microsoft seems to have dropped the ball... just as Virtual Assistant have become a reality.

My 3 year old granddaughter has learned to interact with Alexa
. Interestingly... she discusses and negotiates music selections with Alexa. Virtual Assistants... will always be with her.... and she will NOT know or remember a life without them. 

Trivia: The Halo and Cortana (same voice) is recorded by Jennifer Taylor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jen_Taylor). Apples Siri voice is that of Susan Bennett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Bennett). Amazon's Alexa however... is completely computer generated.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: brobin on August 22, 2018, 12:58:27 PM
More trivia:  The most famous voice of all had to be Jane Barbe, who was the voice behind "We're sorry, you have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service," and other hits like phone company time announcements and other phone company recordings preceded by the SIT.  BTW, adding a SIT to the beginning of your voicemail greeting will generally shut down a telemarketing call and scrub your number from their list.  see:https://goo.gl/WS6tXH
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: brobin on August 22, 2018, 04:12:30 PM
 I wonder if Authinx has noticed that the discussions on this forum are now almost exclusively about creating home built controllers using SBC devices and there is little to no discussion about the WM100 - other than fixing things that should have worked on day 1.  It seems that everyone here has given up on the WM100 which is understandable as the pace of its development gives a whole new meaning to the term 'glacial.' Seven months post-launch and still no Alexa skill - really?

 It's not clear that Authinx has a plan for sustainability and, even though it owns this forum, the owner has never introduced himself or addressed us directly about anything. Collectively, those of us here probably have enough modules squirreled away to automate the Pentagon and we're not sending Authinx a lot of money for new stuff.  I can't really imagine that as a 20 or 30-something young man looking to automate my first home that X10 would make my short list as it did 34 years ago.  Would I even know about X10 today?

 That said, I've used it for 34 years, it works and I'll continue to use it as long as it meets my needs. My Stargate controller let's me do anything I can think of and I have two spare units, but none of this helps Authinx keep the lights on.  I'd be wary of using any product that would be orphaned without the continued presence of their proprietary server.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on August 22, 2018, 04:46:01 PM
It seems that everyone here has given up on the WM100 which is understandable as the pace of its development gives a whole new meaning to the term 'glacial.'
I don't believe everyone has given up on the WM100  mine just sits unattended and works quietly in the background given the options available it is simply a timer that you can control from your phone.
Quote
Seven months post-launch and still no Alexa skill - really?
it took itead (a Chinese manufacture of the Sonoff modules)  three years to introduce an Alexa app  from the time they said they were working on it so given the Wm100 software is being developed in China I don't expect a skill any time soon. Authinx hasn't even stated they are working on it yet.
Quote
It's not clear that Authinx has a plan for sustainability and, even though it owns this forum, the owner has never introduced himself or addressed us directly about anything.
and that likely will not change Tim Forehand  purchased X10 shortly before falling to cancer.
His wife and best friend have been trying to keep his dream alive.
Most of us playing with SBCs are doing so mainly to take the Home Automation setup off the PC My Pi embedded CM15 was to create a single module simular to the WM100 but with far more options.
The WM100 and discussions of a Pro version made many see the power of a SBC.

Since many SBC can run the Andoid OS you could put the WM100 app on one though currently I don't see why you'd want too unless you have a keyboad mouse and monitor connected as well.

I truely believe the SBC is the way of expanding ones HA setup and creating a true universal hub for many different protocols allowing inter communication for them all.

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on August 22, 2018, 08:11:01 PM
People need to move as far away as possible from Jeff's drive to take over the world.  ALL of his Alexa stuff needs to be abandoned.  I find the whole craze offensive and more than a little bit frightening that people are so gullible.

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dave w on August 22, 2018, 09:08:31 PM
I wonder if Authinx has noticed that the discussions on this forum are now almost exclusively about creating home built controllers using SBC devices and there is little to no discussion about the WM100 - other than fixing things that should have worked on day 1.  It seems that everyone here has given up on the WM100 which is understandable as the pace of its development gives a whole new meaning to the term 'glacial.' Seven months post-launch and still no Alexa skill - really?

 It's not clear that Authinx has a plan for sustainability and, even though it owns this forum, the owner has never introduced himself or addressed us directly about anything. Collectively, those of us here probably have enough modules squirreled away to automate the Pentagon and we're not sending Authinx a lot of money for new stuff.  I can't really imagine that as a 20 or 30-something young man looking to automate my first home that X10 would make my short list as it did 34 years ago.  Would I even know about X10 today?

 That said, I've used it for 34 years, it works and I'll continue to use it as long as it meets my needs. My Stargate controller let's me do anything I can think of and I have two spare units, but none of this helps Authinx keep the lights on.  I'd be wary of using any product that would be orphaned without the continued presence of their proprietary server.
Man, you should be a Supreme Court Justice. Your "brief" speaks volumes. Especially that first paragraph.   
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 22, 2018, 09:50:52 PM
People need to move as far away as possible from Jeff's drive to take over the world.  ALL of his Alexa stuff needs to be abandoned. I find the whole craze offensive and more than a little bit frightening that people are so gullible.

Yes.... fear is a powerful motivator.

Ned Ludd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Ludd) was an actual real person... and a sweet guy... who was never punished for his rage against the machine (well... and a supervisor too). Everyone realized.... he was overwelled by his fear. But the looms... continued to weave... and the industrial revolution was born. The Luddite Armies that followed, kidnapped, and murdered in their quest to crush the advancement of industrialization.

Todays technological revolution is just as scary as the machines that did the same work that people had performed..... in the 18th century. Hating the purveyors of these frightening (your word) technologies is irrational.... in a world where irrational behavior is both encouraged and punished. AI and robots... are here. Time... may not be linear... but it can not be reversed. Adapt or join the other Luddites in misery.



Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 22, 2018, 10:13:41 PM
I wonder if Authinx has noticed that the discussions on this forum are now almost exclusively about creating home built controllers ÖÖ

I can't imagine anyone has missed that. I fully support any method that would bring X10 "back on-line". Hell... microwaves, refrigerators, cars, TV's.... everything is cloud connected.... EXCEPT our smart homes... if we only rely on X10 for automation.

But the vast majority of American's do NOT wish to become Linux hobbyist. If the front-end efforts to make the units user friendly isn't made.... it's a failure before it begins. Once this forum becomes another "makers craft" DIY site.... it serves no purpose. Does the Forum have a mission statement anywhere?

It's not clear that Authinx has a plan for sustainability...ÖÖ...  I can't really imagine that as a 20 or 30-something young man looking to automate my first home that X10 would make my short list as it did 34 years ago.  Would I even know about X10 today?

Yeah.... more likely the 20-30 year old wants to automate his Mom's basement. And his/her idea of automation has NOTHING to do with turning lights on/off using a remote (or a phone). Modern automation is AI... period... like it or not.

ÖÖÖ..  I'd be wary of using any product that would be orphaned without the continued presence of their proprietary server.

And there is the rub! The old guys (a big part of the forum) are afraid of the very technology that 90% of the general population WANTS in a Home Automation product. 50 million automation users of Alexa alone (39 million in the USA)Ö.. and no X10 skill.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on August 23, 2018, 11:30:35 AM
The old guys (a big part of the forum) are afraid of the very technology that 90% of the general population WANTS in a Home Automation product.
I don't believe that! Most of the "old guys" here embrace the tech we just point out the issues (flaws)! Remember your older then me!

We point out the flaws so others are aware and to take steps in case! We'll not be the ones that say
 "I didn't know that could happen!"
or
"Why didn't some one tell me that could happen?"
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: bkenobi on August 23, 2018, 12:06:02 PM
It's really simple.  Every product has a EULA.  If you read it and don't agree with a section of the document, you have a choice.  I know what Alexa is doing for me and I know what Alexa is using my input for.  I opt to not use Alexa because I understand the trade off.  Others have the same choice and I certainly won't criticize either opinion.  I am not the only one who thinks people should be fully aware of what they are choosing when they purchase the product.

That said, I would fully support AI automation via Alexa etc IF I could control the data that fed into it and who got to use it for what.  If I created a local version of Alexa where the data went nowhere, I'd be all in!  If I could purchase a real Alexa and guarantee that only the specific search words I intended Alexa to utilize/hear were used, that would be no different than what I have agreed to with Google searches.  I simply don't see any need for an open mic that stores all conversations without any need or explicit consent.  This is not a tin-hat thing, it's a privacy thing.  But, others don't find that to be a problem, so they are more than free to do what they want (not my call...to each their own).
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: brobin on August 23, 2018, 12:45:10 PM
I've tried to say specific things that would be of interest to advertisers to see if Amazon was selling or using the information for non-Alexa purposes and so far nothing.  For example, one day I talked extensively about planning a cruise to Cuba to see if I'd start getting ads for cruises but nothing came of it. Another day I talked about buying a new tablet - again nothing.  That said, I probably wouldn't talk about any nefarious plans without lowering the cone of silence.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 23, 2018, 01:34:52 PM
ÖÖ Most of the "old guys" here embrace the tech we just point out the issues (flaws)! Remember your older then me!

Yeah... I try to read every post.... but if the majority of the forum is embracing the new technologies.... I've missed A LOT! I think many here are still referring to recent tech features as.... flaws.

I am older (than YOU and many others).... and well aware of the human paradigms that make up our personalities and dictate our behaviors. Graying hair doesn't force us to think like old men...ÖÖ it is just simpler, and easier, for old men to run with the old paradigms... instead of constantly disassembling old thought patterns and exploring new concepts. It is a lot of work to look at new ideas with a fresh and open mind. It's much easier to just make excuses.

I've had a GREAT centralized non-cloud based voice (and phone app) controlled system here for years (using BVC and Melloware). I switched to AI... because it has SO MUCH MORE to offer. There are NO flaws in the cloud. There are however huge intrusions by the US government into the privacy of everyone on Earth. Don't kid yourself that there is a home automation work-around that will prevent their intrusion.

Please don't take this personal Tom. There are many worse things than thinking like an old man. Most of my best friends are old men. 
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 23, 2018, 01:58:48 PM
……. I would fully support AI automation via Alexa etc IF I could control the data that fed into it and who got to use it for what.  I

You make some really great points about the collection of open data. Of course.... this post (the one I am typing now) is part of a global record that will last... maybe for centuries. That same global record... also preserves the data collected every time my cars goes anywhere... or even when I go for a bike ride (if I take my phone). Every TV show I watch, every web page I visit..... all collected. My car has a microphone, my TV has a microphone, so does 2 of my remote controls (and so on... and so forth) .

You ARE (you have my word on it) being spied on and watched. Any privacy you ever thought you had... you no-longer have. Unless you're referring to the "feeling of privacy". I don't know much about that. I am from a small town... and have never had that feeling.
 
I don't think anyone should switch to using Alexa.... if they don't want to. BUT... There are 126.22 million households in the United States. And 39 million Alexa users (in those same United States)! All I've ever tried to explain is... if X10 doesn't jump on this AI band wagon soon... there ain't going to be no X10 dance! 

The survival of X10 and all businesses depends on continued growth (new customers). The new growth in Home Automation... isn't old guys already on the X10 forum. It's the younger customers that would buy new products. Those potential younger customers are using Alexa and Google NOW. They need to be targeted and pursued. And X10 needs to have products to sell that would interest this new market.
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 23, 2018, 02:09:51 PM
I've tried to say specific things that would be of interest to advertisers to see if Amazon was selling or using the information for non-Alexa purposes and so far nothing.  For example, one day I talked extensively about planning a cruise to Cuba to see if I'd start getting ads for cruises but nothing came of it. …..

Yet.... last Christmas when my wife and I talked about such things.... we saw Christmas ad's for things we (and millions of others) had thought about buying.

It's a hoax... that conversations are recorded and treated as internet searches. The fact is.... we so casually divert from normal on-line activities to pursue sales info that we self-report our own interests (without even realizing we did it).

The human algorithm being pursued may be consuming huge tax "investments"... but produce about as much usable info as talking out-loud going to Cuba. Although... I would never post on-line about visiting Cuba.... I don't think the NSA would like that.  rofl
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on August 23, 2018, 02:38:18 PM
The old guys (a big part of the forum) are afraid of the very technology that 90% of the general population WANTS in a Home Automation product.
I don't believe that! Most of the "old guys" here embrace the tech we just point out the issues (flaws)! Remember your older then me!

We point out the flaws so others are aware and to take steps in case! We'll not be the ones that say
 "I didn't know that could happen!"
or
"Why didn't some one tell me that could happen?"


I think of the multitude of hack and identity theft cases and wonder why people so freely give up so much personal information.  I believe there will come a day when they will regret doing so.



Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on August 23, 2018, 02:44:19 PM
It won't be long before we see cases of burglary aided by these devices.  Having hacked the system days or weeks prior, they'll have a complete inventory of 'smart' devices before they go in.  They'll know when the occupants are gone by various 'social' web posts and status indicators of the devices.  Just to be sure, they'll remotely view the cameras in and around the house or business.  When the time comes, they won't even need to damage the door, they'll just log in and send a command to unlock the 'smart' lock.  They may even know what kind of beer or wine is in the 'smart' fridge.

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on August 23, 2018, 02:46:38 PM
Or perhaps authorities will gain access via a warrant and view the 'herb' garden, then have the system unlock the doors to enter and make the arrests.

 
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 23, 2018, 03:12:14 PM
the multitude of hack
identity theft
personal information
regret

I hear (read) your (and others) fears Yet... here you are on-line... as are the others with the same fears. I can't honestly say (post) I understand where you're coming from. Do you believe you will somehow be safer if X10's customer base dries-up... and we lose this resource?
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 23, 2018, 03:17:24 PM
Or perhaps authorities will gain access via a warrant and view the 'herb' garden, then have the system unlock the doors to enter and make the arrests.

InterestingÖ that you think technology would cause that. Crimes are and have always been... most often reported by friends, relatives, and loved ones. And... opening a door... has never slowed the police. These fears are unfounded. How will X10 not expanding, growing, or having a young customer base... harm your.... garden?
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 23, 2018, 03:22:24 PM
It won't be long before we see cases of burglary aided by these devices.  Having hacked the system days or weeks prior, they'll have a complete inventory of 'smart' devices before they go in.  They'll know when the occupants are gone by various 'social' web posts and status indicators of the devices.  Just to be sure, they'll remotely view the cameras in and around the house or business.  When the time comes, they won't even need to damage the door, they'll just log in and send a command to unlock the 'smart' lock.  They may even know what kind of beer or wine is in the 'smart' fridge.

Yeah.... sure! Geeky computer experts are going to replace the drug addled dip****s that normally kick a door open.... to steal medicine cabinet drugs and jewelry boxes. Then they hack the cars computer.... and have it drive to their house? Imaginative!
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on August 23, 2018, 06:24:44 PM
I can't honestly say (post) I understand where you're coming from. Do you believe you will somehow be safer if X10's customer base dries-up... and we lose this resource?

I have no personal information here so I have no0thing at risk.  If they somehow hacked into my router and/or PC, they might be able to see some naughty pictures, read some emails or writings, maybe get my bank and tyax information, etc.  But they would NOT be able to turn my lights or TV on or off, adjust my thermostat (some hackers just like to play around a bit to prove they were there), view my cameras live, turn my alarm system off,  unlock my doors or open my garage door and start my car(s).



Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 23, 2018, 08:41:01 PM
Ö.I have no personal information here so I have no0thing at risk.ÖÖ

This IS a two-way connection you know! The anonymity you assume... does NOT exist.

But X10.... exploiting new technologies and finding a new customer base.... IN NO WAY... would threaten YOU. Just like with the Amazon or Google devices... if they scare you avoid them.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Knightrider on August 23, 2018, 09:06:52 PM
I'm just young enough to get smart about that cone of silence reference, but old enough to know my home internet is based on a cellular connection, and sometimes that connection fails.

I would therefore encourage the development of a local connection that isn't in the clouds.
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 23, 2018, 11:07:15 PM
I would therefore encourage the development of a local connection that isn't in the clouds.

Most of my setup works great even without an Internet connection. I know... because of some local infrastructure improvements that were made this past spring caused some frequent (although short) down time. But of course... short of cloud connectivity and computing... my setup is (almost) as dumb as a rock. I still have a couple macros that live on a CM15A. No one has suggested ridding the world of AHP.

But what confuses me.... is this thread is "It's about time to move on (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=30356.60)". Is it just me... or doesn't that mean we're questioning whether or not we should abandon X10. I believe we all know... that the Home Automation industry has changed. Technology products NEVER remain static. I don't know... but I get the impression that most of the X10 users/forum members here.... would rather see X10 die... than prosper.

X10 merely needs a cloud based device to stay current and viable. 39 million American Alexa users... and who knows how many Google users... want to control a couple things through those devices.... you know... for the fun of it. They can NOT do that with X10 now. And serious X10 users are stuck with choosing Homeseer or taking up a Raspberry Pi hobby.

A technologically modern X10 would have a chance of surviving this new age/glut of Home Automation products (just MHO). And how on Earth could a prosperous and viable X10 be a threat to anyone's automation setup.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 24, 2018, 12:37:32 AM
X10 merely needs a cloud based device to stay current and viable. 39 million American Alexa users... and who knows how many Google users... what to control a couple things through those devices.... you know... for the fun of it. They can NOT do that with X10 now......A technologically modern X10 would have a chance of surviving this new age/glut of Home Automation products (just MHO).

I just spent a few minutes on-line shopping.... looking at prices and options for Alexa/Google users... who might want to dapple in Home Automation. And... I think I might have been wrong. There is just no way X10 can compete with the low prices and simplicity of the new WiFi switches and modules. Of course there are a few things X10 can do.... that the other systems have no module or interface to accomplish. But most people don't know or care about such things. 

Why worry about... which Hub or which interface?!? There are plenty of devices that need no controllers other than an Alexa or Google device. I've been in the process of re-imagining my setup anyway. Maybe it is time to plot a new direction.... that doesn't require X10 to introduce a new device/hub..... that they'll never develop anyway.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: brobin on August 24, 2018, 02:03:14 AM
Don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than to see X10 prosper and make a resurgence.  I just don't think it's going to happen for the reasons cited about the current crop of competing devices and the fact that Authinx is doing too little, too late and too slowly to be competitive and attract new users. Given the ownership background Tuice shared earlier, sadly, that's completely understandable. 
 
  Whatever one may think about using Alexa/GH, someone looking to get started in HA will expect that capability.  Case in point, my friend, who is a 70 yo doctor, is building a new home and asked me about HA.  Although he doesn't use one now, his first statement was "How can I use Alexa to control our lights and stuff in our new home?"  Unfortunately, X10 could not be part of that conversation since he has neither the interest nor time to start playing with SBC's.  Like most people, he wants off-the-shelf plug & play, period.

  But back to the original question, "Is it time to move on?" I think is a very different question than, "Should I get started with X10?"  Who among us would tell my doctor friend to get started with X10?  Indeed, if you sold your own home today with all your X10 stuff (including spares) and had to start fresh in a new home, would you invest in X10 or "move on" to Zwave, WeMo or others?  OTOH, those of us here who have been using it for years and have worked around it's limitations to create a reliable system have no immediate need to replace it. 

For me at least, X10 is but a small part of my overall HA domain now.  Just today I had a ductless AC unit installed in the garage so I can actually do things out there without melting.  To automate that unit I bought a Cielo Breez for 99 bucks that emulates the IR remote that came with the unit.  The Breez has an app with geofencing and an Alexa skill and the whole thing took 15 minutes to set up.  It joins 6 or 7 other bridges to various devices that are controlled outside of my X10 realm so in essence I guess I am moving on in a lot of areas that would previously have had non-lighting X10 involvement.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Knightrider on August 24, 2018, 08:46:53 AM
I'm not saying the cloud doesn't have it's place, but AHP has died. I'd like to fix what we had and add to it -- not abandon it and move in a new direction.

I guess it's a case of what I feel is right, not what's popular.

I'm an X10 oldtimer.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dhouston on August 24, 2018, 09:06:56 AM
Who needs Alexa when you can just talk to the hand?https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/22/three-square-market-plans-gps-chip-dementia-patients.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/22/three-square-market-plans-gps-chip-dementia-patients.html)
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: JeffVolp on August 24, 2018, 10:31:02 AM
But back to the original question, "Is it time to move on?" I think is a very different question than, "Should I get started with X10?"  Who among us would tell my doctor friend to get started with X10?  Indeed, if you sold your own home today with all your X10 stuff (including spares) and had to start fresh in a new home, would you invest in X10 or "move on" to Zwave, WeMo or others?

I would certainly stick with X10 because I know how to make it work with virtual 100% reliability.  A problem I had with our irrigation system this past week turned out to be the solenoid on the valve itself.

While Tuicemen helped me integrate Alexa and we have a W100, we still pick up a PalmPad for manual control.  Though it is neat to control devices through a cell phone with the W100, we usually have a PalmPad just an arm reach away.  And pushing a button on the PalmPad is faster than bringing up the X10 app or yelling to Alexa.

Because the CM15A had not yet been released when we built this house, and I was concerned about relying on a beta CM14A, I went with the Ocelot.  I programmed that 15 years ago, and except for adjusting the irrigation cycles to adhere to water restrictions, it has run unattended year after year, even correctly adjusting to the time shift.  Why change to another technology?

Jeff
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: brobin on August 24, 2018, 11:11:33 AM

Because the CM15A had not yet been released when we built this house, and I was concerned about relying on a beta CM14A, I went with the Ocelot.  I programmed that 15 years ago, and except for adjusting the irrigation cycles to adhere to water restrictions, it has run unattended year after year, even correctly adjusting to the time shift.  Why change to another technology?


I probably should have qualified my question by adding "Unless you're Jeff Volp"  ;D and I understand completely.  The reason I used X10 in this house was a) I had my Stargate (similar to the Ocelot) and, b) because of the superb job you did in creating the XTB-IIR and other items that make it all work. 
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Gismo on August 24, 2018, 02:14:00 PM
Well, since I started this Thread, Iíd like to point out a few things that made me start it.
First, yes Iíve been using x10 for 30+ years, and yes Iím one of the old guys and retired with 40 years of engineering experience.
Without a new and better AHP available for the CM15 module, and or a WiFi module the interacts with Alexa or Google, the younger generation is not going to go x10. A lot canít even use the software on newer computers, or would not even know how. Which basically means few sales for x10. Most people want HA to be easy, not programming macros to do things, only us techy old people enjoy that.  ::)

So without new sales how will x10 survive?

I purchased 10 WiFi plugs for less than the price of one x10 WiFi unit, and my plugs are Ul rated. The free app that I use can do everything I need. Example,  I can turn on my all my home theater system equipment, dim lights, make popcorn, just by saying Alexa movie time. Lol

I would have loved to see x10 leap ahead of all the new HA options.  But I donít see that ever happening, but maybe I could be wrong, maybe .

I know enough on how to secure my WiFi signal. I refuse to use smart locks.  I installed a hard wired alarm in my house 35 years ago (Radio Shack - powerhouse - x10  compatible system) that works  flawlessly so I know x10 products were great.

I still may keep my x10 stuff (thanks to some posters saying keep an additional HA type in my setup) and thinking to reinstall my CM15 because I have a few wall switches, that control some outdoor lights as just timers, because the WiFi wall switches are not cost effective right now.

Today most people have no idea what x10 is or was,  kind of like a rotary telephone lol.

So thatís my reason of this thread. At least brought up some great information.

Peace  8)
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on August 24, 2018, 02:44:59 PM
It really is easy to add Alexa control of your current and possibly future x10 devices any number of ways.
HA-bridge is the key component. ;)

For less then $15 US you can get a Pi Zero W and turn it into a simple Alexa hub with the Cm15 or cm19 connected to it.
You don't have to do the CM15 mod I did http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=30322.msg173669#msg173669
but it makes for a clean look.
HA-Bridge will allow control just about any HA protocol smart or not.
 >!

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dhouston on August 24, 2018, 03:27:58 PM
I still may keep my x10 stuff (thanks to some posters saying keep an additional HA type in my setup) and thinking to reinstall my CM15 because I have a few wall switches, that control some outdoor lights as just timers, because the WiFi wall switches are not cost effective right now.
https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/sonoff-t1-us.html (https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/sonoff-t1-us.html)

I don't know whether these are UL but the price is reasonable.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Gismo on August 24, 2018, 04:10:56 PM
I still may keep my x10 stuff (thanks to some posters saying keep an additional HA type in my setup) and thinking to reinstall my CM15 because I have a few wall switches, that control some outdoor lights as just timers, because the WiFi wall switches are not cost effective right now.
https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/sonoff-t1-us.html (https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/sonoff-t1-us.html)

I don't know whether these are UL but the price is reasonable.

I heard of them before, not UL.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: bkenobi on August 24, 2018, 05:27:44 PM
The thing is, if you have a good HA controller (be it an off the shelf or DIY), you can use any combination of systems without worrying about whether it will work together.  That does potentially mean more controllers that must connect to said HA box, but in the end, I think we all just want things to work seamlessly.

My preference would be for a lot of options but I don't think X10 or any other single manufacturer has both the variety of modules, excellent coverage/range, affordable price, long term reliability/longevity, etc.  I started with X10 because it had a couple of these nailed (price being the biggest one).  I was not aware of the horrible range and reliability issues.  Had I known then, I'd have probably opted for something else.

In no particular order, the modules I see as mandatory:
- dimmer switch with option to NOT have ramp (both decora and rocker)
- on/off/relay switch (both decora and rocker)
- companion to other switches if not already 3-way compatible (both decora and rocker) bonus if this can be done without traveler
- duplex outlet
- wire-in dimmer module
- wire-in on/off/relay module
- plug-in dimmer module
- plug-in on/off/relay module
- wire-in motion sensor
- battery powered motion sensor
- customizable triggered module (think power flash)

The thing is, I haven't seen any affordable system that does everything.  I've seen some that do a lot but have holes (like only plug-in modules rather than wired-in).  Even X10 is missing the wired-in motion sensors (without some kind of a hack anyway).
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 24, 2018, 07:33:34 PM
Who needs Alexa when you can just talk to the hand?https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/22/three-square-market-plans-gps-chip-dementia-patients.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/22/three-square-market-plans-gps-chip-dementia-patients.html)

As soon as more security modules become readily available at a decent price.... I am in. Many of us have glasses or contacts, crowns, bridges, or implants, joints replaced or just screws from repairs to broken bones. The man-machine interface began many years ago.

But I still want the power and convenience of AI. 
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 24, 2018, 08:13:56 PM
Well, since I started this Thread......
So without new sales how will x10 survive?

I purchased 10 WiFi plugs for less than the price of one x10 WiFi unit...ÖÖ. I can turn on my all my home theater system equipment, dim lights, make popcorn, just by saying Alexa movie time. Lol

I would have loved to see x10 leap ahead of all the new HA options.  But I donít see that ever happening, but maybe I could be wrong, maybe .

I still may keep my x10 stuff ÖÖ..

You started an excellent thread... I've enjoyed following it... and commenting in it. I too wonder if X10 has either the motivation or the time... to remain a marketable brand. I too am using a mixed set-up... I've never felt compelled to "centralize" my setup. And it has never been easier to mix the parts and pieces... than it is now. 

I also would love to see X10 rise again! Or maybe I'd just like for myself to be a more hopeful... less pragmatic person. Thanks again... for causing us all to think about the state of Home Automation... and where X10 stands in todays use of HA products.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Gismo on August 24, 2018, 10:39:25 PM
Well, since I started this Thread......
So without new sales how will x10 survive?

I purchased 10 WiFi plugs for less than the price of one x10 WiFi unit...ÖÖ. I can turn on my all my home theater system equipment, dim lights, make popcorn, just by saying Alexa movie time. Lol

I would have loved to see x10 leap ahead of all the new HA options.  But I donít see that ever happening, but maybe I could be wrong, maybe .

I still may keep my x10 stuff ÖÖ..

You started an excellent thread... I've enjoyed following it... and commenting in it. I too wonder if X10 has either the motivation or the time... to remain a marketable brand. I too am using a mixed set-up... I've never felt compelled to "centralize" my setup. And it has never been easier to mix the parts and pieces... than it is now. 

I also would love to see X10 rise again! Or maybe I'd just like for myself to be a more hopeful... less pragmatic person. Thanks again... for causing us all to think about the state of Home Automation... and where X10 stands in todays use of HA products.

Thank you HA Dave
Iíve enjoyed reading and learning about HA stuff from this BB.
NEVER  can learn enough.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on August 25, 2018, 07:43:26 AM
I really, really, REALLY wish people would stop pushing the G and JeffBox type systems.  I'm seeing it mentioned on more and more sites, and it's getting offensive.  G and Jeff do NOT need to be involved in our daily lives to the point of turning things on and off and adjusting our thermostats.  I'm quite capable of standing up and walking to the thermostat to adjust it if I need to.  And it's better exercise than speaking to a control system a thousand miles or more away to do it for me.

Until and unless any of these new systems operate INSIDE MY OWN HOUSE ONLY with no need to phone home, I'm not interested.  AHP did that and still does for those who can make it work.  I got tired of trying to make it work with the need to add filters, couplers, amplifiers, etc.

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on August 25, 2018, 08:18:58 AM
There are several systems that operate in your home with out calling out for assistance from the web.
However more and more newer HA Protocols are using the call home approach.
Why?
Because it is easier to code, easier to debug, easier to be sure everyone is running the most up to date version and faster to do the for mentioned.
Everyone wants stuff yesterday and expects it to be plug N play no one wants to spend time debugging any more.
 I have a couple of the devices you dread though they aren't used as often as you'd think.
 It isn't because I'm afraid of it or an invasion of privacy. Heck if you post on the internet companies know more about you then you'd think! They now when your awake and when you usualy go to bed they know when your home they know your location.
These little voice boxes know this too and depending what you say to them maybe more. However they don't continuosly record as many believe. They need to hear the activation word to start recording.
These recordings can be retrieved and deleted by the end user and much easier then you'd expect.

I also wish people would stop pushing these G and Jeffbox type systems. They're only putting people out of work as the companies no longer need to hire as many people to advertise the products.
However forums are for getting info and sharing if someone asks about one of these systems I will share my experiances I don't think of that as pushing the system.

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dave w on August 25, 2018, 10:26:26 AM
I really, really, REALLY wish people would stop pushing the G and JeffBox type systems.  I'm seeing it mentioned on more and more sites, and it's getting offensive.  G and Jeff do NOT need to be involved in our daily lives to the point of turning things on and off and adjusting our thermostats.  I'm quite capable of standing up and walking to the thermostat to adjust it if I need to. 
Actually I am looking for a WiFi thermostat for a Bryant/Carrier system. Not because I want to sit on the couch and tell Alexa to lower the homes temp by a degree. But when traveling/vacationing away from home, it gives me a way of checking homes temp, humidity, and call for heat or cool when we are almost home. But I get your point.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on August 25, 2018, 10:44:18 AM
I can see the desire for that option for those who want it.  My point is, it should be just that, an option.  All of these devices should be able to work without a web connection.  There are times when the web goes down, whether it be DSL, cable, WISP, cell sourced or whatever.  When it does, it can be for several hours, sometimes days.  If you're at home and that happens, where are you?  Can you turn things on or off, or adjust things, view cameras, etc?  With an inhouse system like AHP, you can.

Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dave w on August 25, 2018, 12:15:29 PM
I can see the desire for that option for those who want it.  My point is, it should be just that, an option.  All of these devices should be able to work without a web connection.  There are times when the web goes down, whether it be DSL, cable, WISP, cell sourced or whatever.  When it does, it can be for several hours, sometimes days.  If you're at home and that happens, where are you?  Can you turn things on or off, or adjust things, view cameras, etc?  With an inhouse system like AHP, you can.
Yep. Agree 100% I will not have a total cloud based system. All these users jumping on the cloud based home automation will experience loss of control some day. Yesterday our cable was down half a day due to a cut fiber cable.  Maybe some day when 5G is as ubiquitous as cellular currently is, cloud automation might be something could dip my toe in.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: BackAgain on August 25, 2018, 01:35:19 PM
^^  There's another angle too.  At least with DSL, the Telcos involved are regulated by state and federal agencies and are required to restore service as quickly as possible.  Some of the others like WISPs and cable compnies may not be, so it may be even longer.  I've seen WISPs just suddenly dry up and cease service with no notice.  One around here got so bad, they could be down for weeks at a time and stopped taking new customers.

And what about those in areas where the ONLY option is satellite?  You lose service completely on cloudy days even if they don't get to the level of storms.  And it doesn't even have to be over you.  It can be over the NOC while you have clear skies and Sun or stars.  I know because I had StarBand for a while.  It would go out several times a week for no real reason.

I've even seen situations where DirecTV and/or DishTV would go out nationwide because of storms over the NOC, so it's not a weakness of any satellite ISP, it's just the nature of the beast.

A system capable of operating fully inhouse without the need to phone home would be unaffected except for the remote operations if one was away and wanted to check on things.

I would like to have the inhouse capabilities via a phone or computer, but not with a system that needs outside access.  AHP had that, but simple was not reliable in my experience.  I should say 'is not reliable' since I still have it installed and connected to the CM15 with 3 or 4 modules in close proximity.





Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on August 25, 2018, 01:46:11 PM
I can see the desire for that option for those who want it.  My point is, it should be just that, an option.  All of these devices should be able to work without a web connection.  There are times when the web goes down, whether it be DSL, cable, WISP, cell sourced or whatever.  When it does, it can be for several hours, sometimes days.  If you're at home and that happens, where are you?  Can you turn things on or off, or adjust things, view cameras, etc?  With an inhouse system like AHP, you can.
I don't think anyone on this forum is reliant totally 100% on the cloud for automation. At least not those that were around prior to X10WTI going belly up. We've all seen what happens when the servers go down and not just X10s. Many of these cloud based devices have experianced server issues.
Many of these smart cloud based devices are starting to add local control but not after sometimes years of users complaining about it.

The one nice thing about the WM100 module is although I may not be able to configure it when the internet is down at least my timers work and that's basicaly all I use it for. I have x10 remotes or a flavor of PC software for local control.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: beelocks on August 25, 2018, 04:18:06 PM
I would like to have the inhouse capabilities via a phone or computer, but not with a system that needs outside access. 

Insteon with an ISY controller does almost exactly that. I can also access most stuff from outside in real life because I have an Insteon hub scabbed into the system.
Wired switches, plug-in modules, thermostats (with humidity sensing for bathroom fans), cameras, &c. Some of it is even X10 semi-compatible although I have very little X10 left in my system.
The real issue is the cost compared to 'cloud' based stuff.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 25, 2018, 10:11:35 PM
ÖÖ I also wish people would stop pushing these G and Jeffbox type systems. They're only putting people out of work as the companies no longer need to hire as many people to advertise the products.....

I believe....  "They're putting people out of work" was actually inscribed on the Luddite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite) battle flag. rofl  After all murdering factory owners... was justified... if they were robbing people of their living. But it wasn't true then... or now.

Amazon, Google, and the [evil] Internet.... are NOT putting people out of work, or hurting any economy. The USA economy... by every conventual measurement has never been better (and we bought 80% of the worlds supply of Echo's). Technological improvements have ALWAYS reduced and/or relieved poverty. Embracing the new technological advancements (even the scary ones) is essential to a prosperous future.   
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: brobin on August 26, 2018, 01:07:55 PM
I agree that relying on cloud based services can be iffy at best. We have half a dozen Dots throughout the house that can control everything from motorized sliding doors to irrigation and lights.  But that's for convenience only - when Irma hit us directly almost a year ago our power was out for nine days and cable for a few more after that.  We have a 48kw generator so we had lights, AC, and TV. The Stargate and Lutron ran their schedules, the AC operated as programmed and we could even watch TV via an old school antenna mounted in the attic. So the lack of cloud based services only took away some convenience but didn't affect "household operations" one bit.  Every item that Alexa can operate can also be operated with local control be it an IR/RF remote, light switch, t-stat or door knob.  I don't buy products that are Wifi only controlled.  The risk with wifi only is not just the cable being cut but also a router failure as happened to me earlier this month right after we left on a 3 week trip.
 As far as privacy goes, I'm not really concerned about what Jeff's minions might hear even if they were listening. The tests I've done so far don't show that they are.  Remember, Alexa & GH weren't built specifically for HA but for providing info, entertainment & shopping so the development and deployment are spread over much broader base of users than the still limited HA market. 
 
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on August 26, 2018, 03:15:07 PM
  Remember, Alexa & GH weren't built specifically for HA but for proving info, entertainment & shopping so the development and deployment are spread over much broader base of users than the still limited HA market. 
 
Visiting any of the many Alexa discussion groups or forums confirms that.
Most Alexa questions are about music, shopping, reminders, calling & messaging.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: bkenobi on August 27, 2018, 10:57:54 AM
There are many options in thermostats that do both function as a standard thermostat and allow HA IN HOUSE (no cloud).  I wanted to install the Honeywell WiFi thermostat similar to the one I currently have, but it was apparently an old discontinued model within a year.  They replaced it with another newer version (nicer screen, etc), but it won't work with my specific furnace installation.  There are several ZWave thermostats as well.

My intention was to have them set up like a normal programmable 7-day thermostat.  I was going to use the WiFi to override based on sensors around the house that were controlled by my HA system (e.g., kick heat on early if temp dropped below heat pump shutoff temp so I could use a cheaper heat source, keep the temperature set point slightly lower if the HP was locked out, etc).  I would not consider using a unit where ALL the logic was remote to the home.  I recall issues with the NEST a few years ago where the unit lost connectivity and froze people's homes (I forget the details).
Title: Re: It’s time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 27, 2018, 07:15:09 PM
Most Alexa questions are about music, shopping, reminders, calling & messaging.

My Dad had a Zenith Space Command remote.... they clicked. The clicking sound was the signal that caused the TV to rotate (an electric motor actually rotated) the tuner to the next designated channel (we only had 3).

LOTS have changed in the area of Home Automation over the years. Push-button lighting was really cool in the 1970's. But Home Automation changed dramatically.
People expect AI.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: dave w on August 27, 2018, 09:01:33 PM
My Dad had a Zenith Space Command remote.... they clicked.
Yeah, My parents had one also. When you pushed the button a tiny hammer whacked a metal cylinder that acted like a tuning fork making an ultrasonic tone. The different frequencies queued channel up, channel down, Off-On, and mute. We had four channels. The three networks and an independent station out of Bloomington. Sometimes I wish I was back there watching Gun Smoke and Have Gun Will Travel.  :)%
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: brobin on August 27, 2018, 09:31:21 PM
My Dad had a Zenith Space Command remote.... they clicked.
Sometimes I wish I was back there watching Gun Smoke and Have Gun Will Travel.  :)%

Or Highway Patrol... brought to you by Ballantine Beer.

The first X10 remotes were ultrasonic too with all 16 unit codes. They run (notice I didn't use past tense) on a 9V battery.  I still have some that work.  I used to be able to hear them if I held them close to my ear but now the tinnitus is too loud to be able to do that.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 27, 2018, 10:56:16 PM
Ö Yeah, My parents had one also...ÖÖÖ. Sometimes I wish I was back there watching Gun Smoke and Have Gun Will Travel.  :)%

Or Highway Patrol... brought to you by Ballantine Beer.

I think a LOT of us.... share similar memories. But Gun Smoke... is still on TV (Nick). Have gun will travel (https://youtu.be/hS7NUnijG3E), as well as Highway Patrol (https://youtu.be/e8DlX7_WcCA)Ö. can still be viewed as they were originally shown (B&W at 4:3 format)Ö. if you stream through YouTube. Most streaming devices allow YouTube streaming (even just a $39 Pi will do). And BTW... the Ballantine Beer Commercials (https://youtu.be/Xm9p_n7Wavs) are there too. 

But I am far from ready to write my memoirs... or put a rocking chair on the front porch... or even build a front porch. There are lots of impressive new technologies out there today.... and MUCH more promised tomorrow. And I plan of staying clear-headed and on top of things for some time yet to come. I loved my old BVC (SAPI5 Voice recognition) controlled set-up. But AI voice, macro, Pi, and cloud control... are all awesome.

P.S. from time-to-time..... I watch an old StarTrek TV shows on the 110 inch theater screen.
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: HA Dave on August 28, 2018, 11:12:14 AM
I already have a garage door hub (MyQ)Ö great for the garage door.... but not ready for Home Automation

I Have a Homeseer Hometroller (a Pi based Hub) good with X10 (when setup and connected to a CM15A) made to control Zwave.

I also have a (1st gen) Wink hub. Zwave and ZigBee (it also handles my Cree wifi bulb... works well with Amazon Echo/Alexa

The cheap ($79) Insteon hub allows for... Insteon and a limited selection of other products.

The Samsung smart hub ($69) works with Zigbee, Z-Wave (and several other partners brands).

Logically... it looks like if I am going to move in the direction of a new flavor of HA.... a Samsung Smart Things Hub (https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-SmartThings-Generation-GP-U999SJVLGDA-Automation/dp/B07FJGGWJL/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1535468446&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=samsung+smart+hub&psc=1) might be my best choice (as a later date replacement for the Wink Hub) ... PLUS Zwave products (https://www.z-wave.com/shop-z-wave-smart-home-products/category/smart-kits).

Others ideas?
Title: Re: Itís time to move on
Post by: Tuicemen on August 28, 2018, 11:30:33 AM
The SmartThings Hub would be my choice. Smartthings has a developer site that allows anyone to create device handlers which can then be accessed by the apps. https://graph.api.smartthings.com/
 The list of devices supported just keeps growing. ;)
I don't own a SmartThings Hub but I can control things configured in the developer site by the apps this includes my x10 with the  cm15 and the Broadlink RM Pro configured devices.
 >!