X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: Travasaurus on June 12, 2018, 10:36:07 AM
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I'm in the process of switching over my bathroom incandescent bulbs (which I've used with an X-10 PLW01 wall switch module for many years now) to LED dimmable bulbs and with helpful input from other posters have learned that I will need a "trailing edge" dimmer module, rather than the "leading edge" one which I currently have. The bulbs are MaxLite G25 LED dimmable, 10 watt (100 watt equivalent) and I'm using an X-10 Pro HR12A remote controller to control them and all the other (incandescent) lights in the house; I have a couple more that I've switched over (using the old PLM02 modules) and they seem to work just fine. The MaxLite bulbs came on the moment I screwed them into the fixture sockets and remained on so I knew I had a little problem from the get-go. The remote had no control over them as regards turning them on or off. They remained on at a very dim level until I turned them off with the little slider switch which is below the larger "button" on the wall module. I have an older house which only has 2 wires so there's no "neutral" wire available. My question is what X-10 wall switch (of the newer trailing edge variety) do I need to make these dimmable LED bulbs work properly? Recall that I need one which will operate off of a 2-wire setup, with no neutral wire available. Thanks in advance...
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Welcome and I am glad to see you found use
I mentioned this in the Smarthome Forums.
I don't believe X10 makes a Trailing Edge dimmer wall switch.
Since every LED bulb and dimmer wall switch manufacturer. Use their own electronics designs. Finding combinations that work sometimes needs experimentation. Though some actually have tested combinations for their bulbs on their web sites.
I an not sure if any automation modules use Trailing Edge designs. Some of the dimmer manufacturers. Like Lutron have them.
I did not see any tested combinations on the Max Lite site.
I have seen some reports of success with Cree bulbs. That could also vary depending on the bulls model.
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I had the same sort of problem when I switched to LEDs. I just left one incandescent bulb in the circuit and all worked well. I think LEDs don’t draw enough current for the X10 switches to function. Try it it should work for you too.
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No definite tests or reports on this working.
The PCS load resistor. Normally used on their UPB switches. May shunt enough current around the LED load to work.
I have seen them on a few sites found in a web search.
http://www.pcslighting.com/news/news-press-releases/290-ilr-10k
http://pcslighting.com/resources/PulseWorx/Installation/ILR-10K%20OwnersManual.pdf
Update. I pieced a few resistors together at a high enough wattage, 12,500 Ohms was as close as I could get to 10,000 Ohms. It did NOT work. Forget the resistor assembly.
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Okay, this is not looking too good at this point in time. If I bite the bullet and have a "neutral" wire installed in the bathroom (at God only knows what cost) is there an X-10 dimmer switch I can use that's guaranteed to work with LED bulbs? Please list the name and model number if you would. Secondly, if this fails or for some reason just won't work, is there an Insteon dimmer switch that will? Again, name and model number, please. And I've read that the Insteon remote control is backwardly-compatible with X-10 products (which the rest of my house currently has all over the place) but then it seems like I saw a post telling that the Insteon remote wasn't compatible any more. If someone could clarify that as well, it would be very much appreciated...
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No definite tests or reports on this working.
The PCS load resistor. Normally used on their UPB switches. May shunt enough current around the LED load to work.
I have seen them on a few sites found in a web search.
Update. I pieced a few resistors together at a high enough wattage, 12,500 Ohms was as close as I could get to 10,000 Ohms. It did NOT work. Forget the resistor assembly.
I'm certainly inclined to go with your on-site personal experience, but the promotional information on the ILR-10K unit is certainly persuasive. I'm a little shocked that they could make such a claim if in fact it would not work "as advertised". I wonder if they offer a money-back guarantee? Do you think there may be some little trick they employed that you might've overlooked? That certainly appears to be the "quick fix" I've been looking for and would indeed be the answer to a prayer, but with your recent report I'm reluctant to give it a try. Would you be inclined to contact them with your test results, since your technical acumen is far in excess of mine? I don't think they would try to BS you, seeing as how "you know your stuff" and can talk their language...
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The resistor pack was made for their UPB protocol modules that use a Neutral power connection.
It probably works as advertised with their modules.
One of the tricks we use with two wire X10 switches. Is use a single incandescent bulb in the combination with the LED bulbs.
I was hoping their resistor would work but it did not. My assortment of test LED bubs glowed and acted funny with my resistor. The resistor made them glow dimmer but not go to completely off or not pulse.
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FOR TESTING PURPOSES ONLY and assuming you have a ground wire in the box, you can wire the resistor from line to ground.
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Okay, this is not looking too good at this point in time. If I bite the bullet and have a "neutral" wire installed in the bathroom (at God only knows what cost) is there an X-10 dimmer switch I can use that's guaranteed to work with LED bulbs?
Before spending big bucks to have neutral lines installed. Is there any way you can conceal a 7W incandescent bulb in the fixtures. I have multiple fixtures controlled by the old WS467 switches large enough to put a socket adaptor https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-Socket-with-Outlets-White-R52-01403-00W/100184555 and a night light with 7W incandescent bulb https://www.homedepot.com/p/White-Automatic-Dusk-to-Dawn-Incandescent-Night-Light-2-Pack-8922301/205310280 in? This will work. Also the larger your LEDs are the better the results. Your 10W should be sufficient, but I am using 1600 lumen 13W Sunbeam LED bulbs with great results on the two wire switch. FWIW
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I had the same sort of problem when I switched to LEDs. I just left one incandescent bulb in the circuit and all worked well. I think LEDs don’t draw enough current for the X10 switches to function. Try it it should work for you too.
Hey, thanks for your kind suggestion but since I'm looking to eventually go "All LED all the time" (and the fact that incandescent bulbs are a fast-vanishing-breed) I need a solution that doesn't involve standard light bulbs. Plus, since these are exposed it would look a little odd having 1 bulb that's different from all the rest. I'm hopeful that someone will come up with a solution to this dilemma, since I know I'm not the only guy out here with this problem (and it's just going to keep getting worse as time goes on and the old style bulbs become totally unavailable)...
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Okay, this is not looking too good at this point in time. If I bite the bullet and have a "neutral" wire installed in the bathroom (at God only knows what cost) is there an X-10 dimmer switch I can use that's guaranteed to work with LED bulbs?
Before spending big bucks to have neutral lines installed. Is there any way you can conceal a 7W incandescent bulb in the fixtures. I have multiple fixtures controlled by the old WS467 switches large enough to put a socket adaptor and a night light with 7W incandescent bulb in? This will work. Also the larger your LEDs are the better the results. Your 10W should be sufficient, but I am using 1600 lumen 13W Sunbeam LED bulbs with great results on the two switch. FWIW
I wish, but since this is a "vanity light" (meaning that the bulbs are all exposed) and the fact that I only have 3 sockets in the fixture, I'm afraid your kind suggestion won't work in my situation. I'm going to have to do it by means of adding some kind of "hidden resistor" or just suck it up and have a neutral line installed and be done with it. Is there an X-10 dimmer switch which is guaranteed to work with LED bulbs if there is a neutral line available to tie-on to? And if not then I guess I have no choice but to jump ship to Insteon, much as I'd like to stay with X-10. I've heard that Insteon (and similar brands) are unGodly expensive if you have to make the change-over. Also, I've heard conflicting reports about their remote controls being backwardly-compatible with X10 products (of which I have many), installed all over my house. I read that their remote was compatible with X-10 but then I think one of the posters here (or in the Smarthome Forum) said that they were not. Do you have any insight into this? I never anticipated this becoming a "long-term project" but that's what it seems to be developing into...
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I have not seen any reports of the X10Pro XPDI3 dimmer that uses a Neutral connection and LED bulbs. The sales page says works with dimmable LED bulbs. https://www.x10.com/x10-pro/switches/xpdi3-dimmer-120-vac-500w-inductive.html
The older model Insteon modules could have an Primary X10 address programmed into them and some a second X10 Scene Address. Present Insteon modules do not officially support X10 anymore. Unofficially some still do but support could disappear at their discretion. My system is a mixture of X10 and Insteon.
The Insteon remotes never supported X10. Completely different frequencies. X10 310MHz, Insteon 915 MHz.
Smartenit makes a EZX10RF module. That receives all 256 X10 addresses from an X10 remote and resend them on the power line. Like an all address version of an RR501 and also can map 20 of them to an Insteon address.
Insteon is more expensive than X10 module use to be. Now X10 prices are still below Insteon but no more of the OLD X10WTI daily mass sales. Insteon did recently have a 30% off Memorial Day sale.
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I believe...… there are 2-wire motion sensing switches (with manual override)…. that work well with LED bulbs. I use motion sensors in a couple places (garage and laundry room).
Going motion sensing is (or can be) a great form of Home Automation.
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I have an older house which only has 2 wires so there's no "neutral" wire available.
Assuming you mean 'ground', you have a major safety issue in a bathroom. As in potentially life threatening. Any outlets in bathrooms (or anywhere near water) need to be GFCIs and those require a hot, neutral and ground. Before I did much else, I would investigate methods and costs to correct that issue.
If you're in the US, you may not even be able to sell the house that way in some areas if you should ever think abut moving.
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I have an older house which only has 2 wires so there's no "neutral" wire available.
Assuming you mean 'ground', you have a major safety issue in a bathroom. As in potentially life threatening. Any outlets in bathrooms (or anywhere near water) need to be GFCIs and those require a hot, neutral and ground. Before I did much else, I would investigate methods and costs to correct that issue.
If you're in the US, you may not even be able to sell the house that way in some areas if you should ever think abut moving.
Sage advice. I never considered pulling a new wire or two a major cost compared to safety.
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I've seen those widgets made to help dimmers work with LED lights. Looking at the bump on the shrink sleeving, I suspect they are nothing more than high a value resistor to bleed off leakage current.
I envision an active circuit that behaves more like an incandescent filament when the voltage across it is low, and then turns off each half cycle when the current reaches a threshold that would indicate the dimmer switch triac has turned on. Since it would only be conducting when there is little voltage across it, it should have relatively low dissipation. In production volume it could probably be produced for under $10.
Jeff
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I tried a few resistors to try and simulate the load widget.
WS12A about the age of their modules. Maybe SmartHome forums. Radio Shack was mentioned so not the new Preset Dim nd soft start.
Tried 12.2K. Didn't have the 10K in a high enough wattage value. I saw in one of the widgets spec sheets. Failed miserable. Sill glowed with an assortment of dimmable test LED bulbs I have or no X10 power line commands worked.
4.7K no glow but also no power line controls.
4W night light. LED glowed, some no On but if On would go Off.
7W night light no LED glow, no power line controls.
This is with an outlet close to the breaker box and ~9.5 Volts X10 signal from the XTB-IIR.
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I'm surprised that a 7W nightlight didn't allow X10 control - at least switching from off to on. Usually the problem is turning off because the LED bulb is generating enough noise to block the X10 switch from decoding the command.
Jeff
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The following current production Insteon devices still support X10 and also work well with dimmable LED bulbs, but they do require a neutral wire:
Insteon 2334-222 Dimmer Keypad 8-Button Revision 8.0
Insteon 2334-232 Dimmer Keypad 6-Button Revision 8.0
Insteon 2477D Dimmer Switch Revision 8.2
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The following current production Insteon devices still support X10 and also work well with dimmable LED bulbs, but they do require a neutral wire:
Insteon 2334-222 Dimmer Keypad 8-Button Revision 8.0
Insteon 2334-232 Dimmer Keypad 6-Button Revision 8.0
Insteon 2477D Dimmer Switch Revision 8.2
Do you know about the 2466 relay and dimmer type ToggleLinc? I believe they do.
I believe the users X10 switches are the toggle button style. X10Pro PLM01
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I have an older house which only has 2 wires so there's no "neutral" wire available.
Assuming you mean 'ground', you have a major safety issue in a bathroom.
Pretty sure Travasaurus is talking about a two wire switch loop with no neutral in the switch box.
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I'm surprised that a 7W nightlight didn't allow X10 control - at least switching from off to on.
Yeah, me too. I think there is some dependence on the LED bulb. Maybe I have just been lucky with my selection of bulbs.
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That is the way I read the question.
Two wire switch loop and no neutral in the switch box.
My house is all switch loops, two wire Romex with no ground wire in it.
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Is Travasaurus really certain there isn't a pair of white wires (neutrals) tied together in the back of the switch box? Many times there is a neutral at the switch box but the inexperienced DIY homeowner (who has no business doing his own wiring anyway) just doesn't realize it because there wasn't a neutral wire connected to the original switch.
What's the big deal with adding a wire from the fixture to the switch to get neutral at the switch? A good electrician should be able to fish a wire with no or minimal damage to the plaster or drywall.
I have no first hand knowledge whether or not the Insteon 2466S On/Off Switch (Toggle) or the Insteon 2466D Dimmer Switch (Toggle) still support X10. But I would not recommend them anyway because they are not Dual-Band, they do not have the improved 100-277V power circuitry, and according to many reviewers these are thus more prone to failure from power surges.
Why does a bathroom vanity light fixture need to be X10 controlled? Lutron makes very good (non-X10) LED dimmers in both the toggle and Decora style that do not require a neutral.
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Why does a bathroom vanity light fixture need to be X10 controlled?
Because it is there.
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He is using X10. So Dual Band will not matter. As it is Insteon only.
My house is about the same age as he indicated, maybe in his Smarthome Forum posts, and I have no white neutrals in any of my switch boxes.
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Is Travasaurus really certain there isn't a pair of white wires (neutrals) tied together in the back of the switch box? Many times there is a neutral at the switch box but the inexperienced DIY homeowner .
PM him and ask him.
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Of course Dual-Band is only relevant to Insteon functionality. And of course Travasaurus is only using X10 (I did read the entire thread before posting my comments).
The Dual-Band circuitry and the improved 100-277V power circuitry go hand-in-hand, as both features were implemented (at the same time) as an improvement to many of the Insteon modules several years ago.
My point in not recommending the 2466S and the 2466D is that because these are older designs, without the Dual-Band/power circuitry improvement, the 2466S and 2466D are far more prone to failure from power surges than the newer generation of Insteon devices.
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Of course Dual-Band is only relevant to Insteon functionality. And of course Travasaurus is only using X10 (I did read the entire thread before posting my comments).
The Dual-Band circuitry and the improved 100-277V power circuitry go hand-in-hand, as both features were implemented (at the same time) as an improvement to many of the Insteon modules several years ago.
My point in not recommending the 2466S and the 2466D is that because these are older designs, without the Dual-Band/power circuitry improvement, the 2466S and 2466D are far more prone to failure from power surges than the newer generation of Insteon devices.
Does any Insteon Dual Band switches with the new and improved power supply circuity, support X10?
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Officially the 2477D, 2477S 100-277VAC 50/60Hz switches. Do not support X10. Not listed in the specification pages.
The 2466S/D power line only also do not list X10 support.
I have seen posts indicating that X10 support is not listed but still maybe supported.
Since it is not listed. They can drop it at anytime they decide to.
Now that Smarthome-Smarlabs are owned by Richmond Capital Partners. They maybe taking a different path.
Not all of the updated modules to Dual Band are reliable.
The 2413S, 2413U PLM, both older and present HUB. Have switching supplies in them, but someone picked poor quality capacitors for the supply. They have a known issue with getting maybe two years and a few months old. Then stop working.
Out of the two year warranty by a few months. ::)
There is a very long thread on the UDI forums. On repairing them with quality capacitors. They say they have corrected it but I don't know anyone that has had one long enough to test the time period before belly up.
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I have seen posts indicating that X10 support is not listed but still maybe supported.
FWIW
When I bought the Insteon I/O Links, I emailed Smarthome about X10 compatibility.
The answer was: on the site catalog pages look to see if the "Owner's Manual" is available as a pdf, and open it and look for X10 programming instructions. If present in the manual, the module is old and still supports X10.
I don't think any of the Dual Band stuff supports X10.
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As I posted 2 days ago in this same thread, the following current production Dual-Band Insteon devices still support X10 and also work well with dimmable LED bulbs, but they do require a neutral wire:
Insteon 2334-222 Dimmer Keypad 8-Button Dual-Band Revision 8.0
Insteon 2334-232 Dimmer Keypad 6-Button Dual-Band Revision 8.0
Insteon 2477D Dimmer Switch Dual-Band Revision 8.2
I just recently purchased some 2477D Dimmer Switches Dual-Band Rev 8.2 from Smarthome to keep as spares, and I did a bench test to verify that it still supports X10 (contrary to what it says in the latest 2477D manual).
I also recently purchased some 2334-222 and 2334-232 Dimmer Keypads Dual-Band Rev 8.0 from Smarthome to keep as spares, and I did bench tests to verify that these both still support X10 (the manual for these is correct in that it still refers to support for X10).
Brian H is right in that Insteon has said they may remove X10 support sometime in the future. Sean (a senior tech manager at Insteon) has stated, in emails to me about this very subject, that Insteon will make an announcement ahead of time if they decide to remove X10 support.
Brian H is also right about the 2413 modules. Time will tell if the latest versions hold up better.
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You can't always rely on what the tech support people at Smarthome tell you. They sometimes get it wrong.
Some of the Dual-Band "stuff" DOES in fact support X10.
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All good to know, but now it is even more risky figuring out if any of the newer Insteon stuff is still compatible. This post would be good as a stickie.
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Like my Dual Band 2457D2 LampLinc code:4413 and 2635-222 On/Off module Code:1714 both accept an X10 address.
Can't say about the presently being sold ones. Mine are not brand new.
Same for the 2413S PLM X10 not listed in the sales literature but still does. Mine is a hardware 2.4. I see they now have increased the Insteon Link Database to 2000 from the 1000 in the earlier hardware. So I can't say if X10 is still supported.
I suspect they are now 2.5 or maybe higher.
The 2450 I/OLinc is an older design. I suspect it will support X10 until they replace it with a Dual Band Model. They did change the main filter capacitors value and voltage. In my 2.3 over the 1.0 and again over 1.8
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I kind of lost track of this Forum as I was focusing on the SmartHome one instead. I have since decided to bite the bullet and have resigned myself to getting a "neutral" wire installed so I can move on down the road. As such, the only genuine X-10 switch that's been "guaranteed" to work with dimmable LED bulbs is the XPDI3 Dimmer, 120 VAC 500W Inductive Wall Switch. Now I'm just looking for someone who's had some practical experience with this one so I'll know I'm not just getting a bunch of hyped-up nonsense. If the thing has a money-back guarantee then that's even better. This way I don't have to fret over various Insteon devices' "incompatibility" with my X-10 remote controls. Plus this is just a single-switch installation, not a 2-way setup. Any input from the Experts here would be more than welcome (especially before I have to pay my electrician a small fortune to install the neutral line). Thanks and standing by...
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You may want to use the Advanced Search function here. For the key word XPDI3. I found around 95 posts with XPDI3 in them. That may give you some information along with users exact information.
Due to electronics designs. You may still find some combinations of bulb and XPDI3 working fine and others maybe less than 100% compatible. Manufacturers use to have tested with lists.
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To review:
You have a bathroom vanity light fixture with 3 light bulb sockets,
and the neutral wire is at the fixture, not at the switch.
You were using an X10 PLW01 wall switch with incandescent bulbs,
controlled by an X10 HR12A remote.
Then you changed to MaxLite G25 LED dimmable 10W (100W equivalent) bulbs,
and now the X10 PLW01 wall switch doesn’t work with the LED bulbs.
So now you are having an electrician run a new wire to get neutral at the switch,
and want to know if the X10 XPDI3 dimmer switch will work.
Specs for the XPDI3 say minimum 40W, and since you only have 30W, THIS IS LIKELY A PROBLEM. The XPDI3 is not a true rocker, it is a pushbutton dimmer switch with a paddle that overlays a single pushbutton hidden beneath the paddle. The XPDI3 is a receiver only … it responds to X10 commands and controls the connected load, but it does not transmit X10 signals when the paddle is pressed.
A better choice is the Insteon 2477D Dimmer Switch. The current production version, Revision 8.2, still supports X10, and it even supports X10 Scenes. It is a true rocker dimmer switch. It has LEDs to indicate the level of brightness of the load. It is both an X10 receiver and an X10 transmitter. It can be set to have any default level of load brightness, and any ramp rate.
Furthermore, since you are using an HR12A remote, with the 2477D’s X10 Scene capability, you could have different buttons on the remote correspond to different levels of brightness. For example, using an “A” housecode remote, you could have button 1 (A1) correspond to full brightness, button 2 (A2) correspond to 70% brightness, and button 3 (A3) correspond to 20% brightness. You will need an X10 Maxi-Controller (or equivalent controller) to set up the X10 addresses in the 2477D.
I have a 2477D Rev 7.8, wired to a fixture with 3 Cree 4Flow LED dimmable 6W (40W equivalent) bulbs. I’m using the 2477D in X10 mode only (not Insteon mode), and I also have an X10 Scene address set in it. It works perfectly.
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If the thing has a money-back guarantee then that's even better.
That probably isn't gonna happen. Too much variation in what various manufacturers call "Dimmable". "Dimmable" on an old phase shift dimmer might not be dimmable on a X10 dimmer. Neutral line will help but no guarantee.
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I don't believe X10 makes a Trailing Edge dimmer wall switch.
Does this mean they use leading edge for all x10 dimmers? I was always curious about this.
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Due to electronics designs. You may still find some combinations of bulb and XPDI3 working fine and others maybe less than 100% compatible. Manufacturers use to have tested with lists.
And, incandescents were incandescents while LEDs with the same P/N might behave differently because of differences in design from year to year.
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As the late, great Paul Harvey used to say, "And now for the Rest of the Story": I went ahead, bit the bullet and hired a Master Electrician and now $200 later I have 2 perfectly-working X-10 WS13A (non-dimmable) switches in my bedroom and office and 1 Insteon 2477D (dimmable) switch in my bathroom, all of which work "as advertised" with all my old X-10 remote control units. The good news is (in the latter case) that my bathroom ghetto blaster works great with no interference whatsoever (the X-10 XPDI3 switch I briefly tried made it unlistenable on the AM band) and the bad news is that it will not dim the LED bulbs down very far at all, nowhere near what it will the incandescent ones, but that's a trade-off I suppose I can live with. For whatever "electrical" reason the neutral wire is apparently a hard & fast requirement for these particular switches when used with LED bulbs, I can now testify to that. It's been a long and frustrating road and I'm glad I've finally reached the end, albeit months later.
Just 1 more question though if I may, looking down the way; it's a pretty sure bet that the X-10 WS13A switches will always work with my current X-10 remotes but I'm a little worried about the Insteon 2477D switch - from some comments made in the Forum it looks like Insteon could decide to "upgrade" the design at any time and I might lose compatibility with my X-10 remote controls. Might it be prudent to buy an extra 2477D switch now to avoid that possibility sometime in the coming days, or is it likely they will stay with the same technology for the foreseeable future? I would be back to "Square 1" if I lost remote compatibility with my control units.
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Glad you finally got everything working. Some LEDs dim better than others. Just wondering, did you set up the 2477D local on-level and local ramp rate? Did you set up any X10 scenes (controllable from your palmpad remotes) in the 2477D for different brightness levels?
You should only buy a spare 2477D if you are concerned that yours may eventually fail, and if you think by that time Insteon will have removed X10 from their products.
The 2477D is now a very reliable dimmer switch, as Insteon has made many many many many many revisions to it over the past 10+ years. No one knows for sure if or when Insteon will remove X10 from future production. Could be tomorrow, could be never in your lifetime.
I would not recommend buying a spare, since you only have the one 2477D, unless you think it is that critical to your lighting needs. There is almost always a workaround solution to replacing a module that has failed or has become obsolete.
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This just in! It may be time to stock up on the current model.
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Thanks for the information. I have not seen it yet on any Smarthome or Insteon company site yet.
Looks like all they did was update the paddle trim and maybe the paddle assembly. To eliminate all the unused bar graph LED pipe holes. That are not used in the On/Off switch style switch. My old power line only 2476S has the paddle trim with the light pipe holes with no LEDs behind them.
I find it interesting you can purchase the white paddle kit with the old style light pipes and paddle. For an additional cost. ::)
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That was cut & pasted from an email from Smarthome to dealers that I received. I used to have a dealer account and I'm still on their email list.
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I use to be a Developers Group member before it vanished one day and the documentation was available for awhile for everyone. Email from them stopped.
I was recently offered a Moderator position on their forums and it would have given me access to their engineers and management. I decided not to do it.