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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: DCUNY on June 30, 2018, 10:14:34 AM

Title: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: DCUNY on June 30, 2018, 10:14:34 AM
I recently installed an on-demand hot water recirculation system.  The vendor of the system sells a wireless x10 solution that turns the recirc system on when there is motion upstairs.

I have the following components:
MS16A wireless motion detector
TM751 transciever
UM506 universal module

The ďdryĒ connectors from the UM506 go to the recir pump controller.  Iíve got everything working.

However the UM506 module which is under the bathroom sink has a loud ďclickĒ every time it activates.  You can hear it all over the upstairs. 
This is not going to work in a bedroom area.

I read on a board to try a PLM04 lamp module, and wire an AC relay from the outlet of the lamp module.  Iíve not been able to get that to work.  Iíve tried both solid state and mechanical relays.  Apparently the relay is not seeing 120 volts from the lamp module, so it wonít close.

This should be simple.  Relocating the UM506 would be a huge problem as I donít have an easy way to run the wire from the ďdryĒ terminals of the UM506.

How can I solve this with a wireless solution?  If I need to do something other than X10 I can probably do that if I know what to try.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: JeffVolp on June 30, 2018, 10:49:58 AM
What kind of pump is it?

I installed a Grundfos 120VAC recirculation pump for our hot water faucets 15 years ago.  It cycles on for 70 seconds every 15 minutes from 6AM to 11:30PM to keep instant hot water available at all faucets.  At 70 seconds I could detect a slight rise in temperature in the return pipe.  (The entire loop is well insulated.)  The 120V line from the pump plugs directly into a lamp module, which turns the pump on and off.  This has been running for 15 years without a problem.

Jeff
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: dave w on June 30, 2018, 10:51:45 AM
It can be a little dicey to power a 120 V coil relay from a lamp module, although I do it (do as I say, not as I do).  Anywho assuming your Lamp Module is good it may be the relay isn't a large enough load for the triac in the LM to trigger. As a test try adding a 7watt incandescent night light in parallel with the relay coil. Does the relay now work? If so try a different relay such as. http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G20836, or https://www.amazon.com/Uxcell-a13070300ux0611-HH52P-General-Purpose/dp/B00E1L86EQ.
If the night light test did not work then another approach is use a different relay module such as the Smarthome I/O Linc which has a very quiet relay https://www.smarthome.com/i-o-linc-insteon-2450-low-voltage-contact-closure-interface-1-in-1-out.html.
This will accept X10 address coding.
One thing IF you do not use the SmartHome I/O Linc:  inductive devices like transformers, motors, and relays do not like the  distorted waveform the LM outputs, even at 100% ON. So when you find a relay that works, energize it using the LM and leave on for an hour or so, while checking to see if the relay is unduly warm (should be not much more than room temp). 
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: Brian H on June 30, 2018, 11:26:26 AM
The mentioned 2450 I/OLinc has a quiet relay in it. Also has a separate sensor input for a dry contact connection also.
It should accept an X10 primary address programmed into it.
Here is the full manual if you care to look at it. http://cache.insteon.com/pdf/2450.pdf
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: DCUNY on June 30, 2018, 12:57:28 PM
What kind of pump is it?

I installed a Grundfos 120VAC recirculation pump for our hot water faucets 15 years ago.  It cycles on for 70 seconds every 15 minutes from 6AM to 11:30PM to keep instant hot water available at all faucets.  At 70 seconds I could detect a slight rise in temperature in the return pipe.  (The entire loop is well insulated.)  The 120V line from the pump plugs directly into a lamp module, which turns the pump on and off.  This has been running for 15 years without a problem.

Jeff
Itís a Readytemp recirculator.  We have a tankless water heater and the Grundfos wonít work with tankless because it doesnít create enough flow.  The Readytemp installs under the most distant sink.  Hence the hoops Iím trying to jump through to get a quiet control under the sink to turn it on when motion is detected.

The Readytemp uses a different valve setup, and we get almost no warm / hot water into the return pipe, which is in our case is our cold water line.
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: DCUNY on June 30, 2018, 01:11:00 PM
It can be a little dicey to power a 120 V coil relay from a lamp module, although I do it (do as I say, not as I do).  Anywho assuming your Lamp Module is good it may be the relay isn't a large enough load for the triac in the LM to trigger. As a test try adding a 7watt incandescent night light in parallel with the relay coil. Does the relay now work? If so try a different relay such as
If the night light test did not work then another approach is use a different relay module such as the Smarthome I/O Linc which has a very quiet relay
This will accept X10 address coding.
One thing IF you do not use the SmartHome I/O Linc:  inductive devices like transformers, motors, and relays do not like the  distorted waveform the LM outputs, even at 100% ON. So when you find a relay that works, energize it using the LM and leave on for an hour or so, while checking to see if the relay is unduly warm (should be not much more than room temp).

Thanks for the quick reply.  Iíll look and see if I have a suitable nighlight to do the test.  These are the mechanical relays Iíve tried so far with no success.  For some reason I am unable to put links in my message:

UXcell JQX-13F AC 110V Coil 8 Pin 2NO 2NC Power Relay w PTF08A Base

URBEST HH52P DYF08A Plastic Coil DPDT Black Clear Blue110/120V AC 8 Terminals

I will take a look at the Smarthome unit.  If I wanted to switch everything to Smarthome what components would I need?  I currently have the X10 transciever out in the garage because it also makes a loud click that is a problem.

I will advise when Iíve been able to do the nighlight test. 
Thanks very much
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: DCUNY on June 30, 2018, 01:14:51 PM
The mentioned 2450 I/OLinc has a quiet relay in it. Also has a separate sensor input for a dry contact connection also.
It should accept an X10 primary address programmed into it.


Thanks, I will take a look.
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: Brian H on June 30, 2018, 11:40:30 PM
I don't think Smarthome has an X10 transceiver other than the one you now have. That clunks.

The Smartenit EZX10RF module is still available. It is a 256 address {all 16 House Codes and 16 Unit Codes} X10 RF to power line transceiver. That you can also map 20  X10 addresses to Insteon if desired. It has no internal relay in it so no clunks. https://smartenit.com/product/ezx10rf/. Manual in resources tab. My original model did have one issue. It received an All Units Off and sent a All Lights Off back on the power lines. By now {been years} it should have been corrected.

Smarthome have discontinued their X10 clones. All their modules are Insteon. One of the early selling points was you could also put an X10 Primary Address in them and some also a second X10 Scene Address. They no longer list X10 support but many still accept the Primary Address. Like the 2450 I/OLinc.
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: Tuicemen on July 01, 2018, 01:00:50 AM
Authinix began replacing the relays in the X10 modules with much quieter ones.
I'm unsure if this modification has made it to the UM506 or simular module. I emailed the owner  regarding this and will let you know his reply.
 >!
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: DCUNY on July 01, 2018, 06:54:53 AM
Authinix began replacing the relays in the X10 modules with much quieter ones.
I'm unsure if this modification has made it to the UM506 or simular module. I emailed the owner  regarding this and will let you know his reply.
 >!

Thank you, I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: Tuicemen on July 02, 2018, 06:32:32 AM
@DCUNY
Apparently the next batch of UM506 modules is to have the silent relay and AGS.
That explains why they are currently on sale.
I'm told this next shipment of improved modules is due to arrive end of July.
 >!
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: dave w on July 02, 2018, 07:02:20 AM
These are the mechanical relays Iíve tried so far with no success.  For some reason I am unable to put links in my message:

UXcell JQX-13F AC 110V Coil 8 Pin 2NO 2NC Power Relay w PTF08A Base

URBEST HH52P DYF08A Plastic Coil DPDT Black Clear Blue110/120V AC 8 Terminals

I will take a look at the Smarthome unit.  If I wanted to switch everything to Smarthome what components would I need? 

I'm surprised the JQX-13F did not work on the LM. I did not see what the col resistance was, but the size of the relay coil and the armature spring make me think it should have worked.

Good question about what else would be needed for the I/O Linc if you use it. I forgot to mention that the I/O Linc relay contacts are only good for 30V 5amp max. The HH52P 24V relay can be used. The SmartHome I/O Linc would just activate the HH52P 24V relay. What kind of 24V power supply were you using with the LM? If it was a switching supply it may be why it did not work on the Lamp Module.
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: Brian H on July 02, 2018, 08:31:10 AM
I suspect there are more than one Chinese vendor making the JQX-13F
Found this in a search.

The I/OLinc is rated at 5 Amps 30 or less voltage as pointed out. The UM506 is 5 Amps 24 Volts or with special wiring precautions of 120 volts 15 amps. The I/OLinc should be fine if the kit is not trying to control 120 volts through the UM506.
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: DCUNY on July 02, 2018, 12:17:28 PM
@DCUNY
Apparently the next batch of UM506 modules is to have the silent relay and AGS.
That explains why they are currently on sale.
I'm told this next shipment of improved modules is due to arrive end of July.
 >!
Thanks for the info.  They didnít happen to mention if the transciever would get a quieter relay did they?
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: Tuicemen on July 02, 2018, 02:03:57 PM
Originally I was told all modules would get the quiet relays. These upgrades would happen when the module stock needed replenished, the only module I asked about was the UM506.
However the TM751 should only click on a unit #1 signal of the house code it is set to you shouldn't be using this unit number for this operation.
If your looking to replace your TM751 you should look for a better transceiver like the RR501 or CM15A.

Since both the TM751 and RR501 are on sale right now I suspect these do not have the new relays yet.
 >!
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: Tuicemen on July 02, 2018, 11:04:31 PM
I had forgotten about the PAT03 https://www.x10.com/pat03.html this has the quiet relay.
I actually tested this module and it performed very well seeing remote signals even from the weak credit card remotes which my old tm751 would not.
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: DCUNY on July 03, 2018, 05:02:07 AM
Thank you everyone for your ideas.  I'm truly a newbie at this ???.

Given the urgent level of family dissatisfaction with the noise of the UM506, I decided to start by ordering the Insteon 2450 I/O Linc module.  It will be here tomorrow at the latest.  I downloaded the detail manual and am confident I can program the X10 capabilities in the module.

Once I have the 2450 up and running I'll probably replace the TM751 transceiver with the quieter PAT03 (thanks Tuicemen).

I will advise when I have the 2450 working.

Thanks again,
Denis
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: DCUNY on July 03, 2018, 05:48:06 AM

However the TM751 should only click on a unit #1 signal of the house code it is set to you shouldn't be using this unit number for this operation.
@Tuicemen, I'm not knowledgeable enough yet to understand your comment above.  Does this mean if I reconfigure the MS16A sensor to a unit number other than 1 then the TM751 won't click?

If I change the configuration on the MS16A does that change survive a battery change when the AAA batteries go dead?

thanks,
Denis
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: Brian H on July 03, 2018, 08:20:50 AM
Yes the TM751-PAT02 is hard coded to Unit Code 1 and the House Code set on the front dial. If the MS16A is not using Unit Code 1. It will not click On and Off. The output on the bottom would not go On and Off. So if  you are using the output on the bottom. It has to click for the output to work.

If it is a RR501-PAT01-PAT03 it could be set to 1 or 9 for the Unit Code with a slide switch and House Code on the front dial.

The Motion Sensor may revert to A1 if the battery goes dead.

Also X10 Motion Sensors also have a Dusk-Dawn sensor. It will send an On when its Dusk and an Off when its Dawn. To the next highest Unit Code above the motion unit code. So your MS16A is sending an On and Off to Unit A2 if the sensor is on the default A1. Unless you disable it with some of the button pushes and LED flashing sequences.
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: DCUNY on July 04, 2018, 12:55:01 PM
Thank you Brian for the detailed explanation on how the sensor works. 

The IO/link module should be here tomorrow. 

Right now the TM751 is in the garage and not bothering anyone.

Thx,
Denis
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: DCUNY on July 07, 2018, 01:11:10 PM
Update for everyone who has helped me with this.  I installed the 2450 I/O Linc unit.  The click is almost silent.  Very good!   :)%

Iím going to see how this goes.  Iím not sure if Iíll try the PAT03 to see if I can get the transceiver unit out of the garage.

Thanks to everyone who helped me out with this.
Denis
Title: Re: Is there a way to replace UM506 with something with quieter relay?
Post by: Brian H on July 07, 2018, 10:18:39 PM
Thanks for the update and the 2450 I/O Linc worked well for you.