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💬General Category => Mac/Linux & Open Source and the X10 Home => Raspberry Pi, Arduino & other SBC => Topic started by: Tuicemen on August 19, 2018, 09:39:44 AM

Title: KISS my PI!!
Post by: Tuicemen on August 19, 2018, 09:39:44 AM
I understand Pis were created as educational boards and thus all instructions for setting things up are using the terminal.
But this doesn't have to be. Having to enter muti lines of code and waiting for each to complete before moving on, just to install a simple program to see if it suit me is a total waste of my time. >*<
The KISS approach is what attracts users.
Software Developers should create and make available simple installer scripts which can either be run from in the terminal window or executed from the GUI.
I'd not tried my hand at this for PIs until this week and it isn't that difficult to learn and do.
Without these simple installers many will not even attempt to use a SBC like the PI.
Infact it is what shyed me away from Linux so many years ago.

Simple installers is what makes Windows programs so attractive.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: petera on August 19, 2018, 06:43:41 PM
I understand Pis were created as educational boards and thus all instructions for setting things up are using the terminal.
But this doesn't have to be. Having to enter muti lines of code and waiting for each to complete before moving on, just to install a simple program to see if it suit me is a total waste of my time. >*<
The KISS approach is what attracts users.
Software Developers should create and make available simple installer scripts which can either be run from in the terminal window or executed from the GUI.
I'd not tried my hand at this for PIs until this week and it isn't that difficult to learn and do.
Without these simple installers many will not even attempt to use a SBC like the PI.
Infact it is what shyed me away from Linux so many years ago.

Simple installers is what makes Windows programs so attractive.

To be honest I think would be users are looking for embedded solutions. They just want to turn on the device and it works. With the likes of a satellite receiver, you turn it on and it works. Nobody realises or really cares what's going on under the hood. A classic example of an embedded Linux system.

We used to flash new linux images onto the old EPROMs on the main board of an old satellite receiver to give it a new lease of life. In fact embedded Linux on a Raspberry Pi is ideal for a home automation project.

Anyone who has taken the time to explore Linux in any of it's flavours will wonder why they left it so long to do this. It will take you in directions you could have only dreamed of with MS Windows.

We do still people need people to explore the OS and the kernel so that ongoing development continues to grow as it has done for many years for the benefit of others.

Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: petera on August 19, 2018, 07:05:18 PM
@tuicemen you might like to try this version of Linux if you have some old low spec hardware lying about looking for a new home. You might be pleasantly surprised at the results specially if you like working in the GUI world. https://www.linuxliteos.com/download.php
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: Tuicemen on August 20, 2018, 09:34:02 AM
Thanks, I've played with several lite versions of Linux.
Even ones run from a USB or CD the OS but still find my self not using them for much.

The OS is not the real issue, the issue is the install of most Opensource Home automation software.
I don't mind the install from the terminal what gets me is having to cut paste or type commands then wait for the task to complete before adding the next line. A simple script does all that for you.
Sure images are available for some Home Automation software and I will most likely try them when if one comes available for the 3B+
However these won't suit my off grid setup as I want the Desktop environment occasionally for streaming.
With my CM15 embedded Zero W I don't require the desktop so I suspect these images will best be suited for it.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: bkenobi on August 20, 2018, 11:50:21 AM
Some developers have nicely thought out installers.  Others don't.  HG has a good installer, but if you want extra features it does require more packages be installed.  I wrote a script that does all of that, but since it isn't being maintained it probably doesn't work today (though it would be easy to fix if necessary).  I tried another HA software that had a single command and it was up and running including all configuration of the hardware as I recall.  I didn't really like the way it worked with my specific setup, though.

The difference you are experiencing IMO is the Linux community is not the same as the Windows one.  Linux people have a general preference for being able to configure everything and so the packages are generally separate from the program utilizing it.  When you install that program, it should link to the support package.  This doesn't always seem to be the case.  For Windows, you just install the .exe or unzip the program and it either works or doesn't.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: docbell on August 20, 2018, 12:13:58 PM
The difference you are experiencing IMO is the Linux community is not the same as the Windows one.  Linux people have a general preference for being able to configure everything and so the packages are generally separate from the program utilizing it.  When you install that program, it should link to the support package.  This doesn't always seem to be the case.  For Windows, you just install the .exe or unzip the program and it either works or doesn't.

Good point. I wrote the following before you posted, so please excuse the overlap.

These are interesting comments, but it might help to step back from the narrow perspective of home automation. The big picture of software installation and updating in general suggests that the problems of packaging and distribution will not be solved once and for all for every type of system. In relatively "closed" ecosystems (like MacOS), installers are cookie-cutter items that are very reliable and even unnecessary when applications can be installed by drag-and-drop. For systems like Windows and (especially) linux, where the developer faces a wide range of possible hardware and software configurations, writing an installer can become a major project in itself. In truly embedded systems (the engine control or nav system in your car), updates are possible only if the hardware has been designed to allow them. Where a Pi running HA software falls on this spectrum depends on whether you want HA to coexist with other services you install or whether you want someone to ship you an off-the-shelf SD card.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: Tuicemen on August 20, 2018, 12:15:27 PM
Some developers have nicely thought out installers.  Others don't.  HG has a good installer, but if you want extra features it does require more packages be installed. 
Agreed
Quote
I wrote a script that does all of that, but since it isn't being maintained it probably doesn't work today (though it would be easy to fix if necessary).
you should clean it up and post it to the HG forum.
Quote
The difference you are experiencing IMO is the Linux community is not the same as the Windows one.  Linux people have a general preference for being able to configure everything and so the packages are generally separate from the program utilizing it.  When you install that program, it should link to the support package.  This doesn't always seem to be the case.
I agree again[/quote]  For Windows, you just install the .exe or unzip the program and it either works or doesn't. [/quote]
 rofl that seems to be the case for some of the images I've looked at for the 3b+, however I've yet to find one that worked B:(
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: petera on August 20, 2018, 01:33:17 PM
The single board computer explosion, in particular the Raspberry Pi which was developed for educational purposes, and it's tinkering capabilities has attracted a diverse user base. I wouldn't recommend it for those who are looking for an easy fix though. You've got to be willing to put a little effort in to exploring it's operating system if only to know what you are looking at when the cursor is flashing on a black screen.

The GUI on a Raspberry Pi is very basic and in computing terms I personally do not see any need for it. What I do see a need for and which is greatly overlooked on initial installation is the changing of the default login. People are opening up their Raspberry PI's to the outside world without a thought to basic security. Just this change to your Raspberry Pi can make life a lot easier for you.

The Linux/Windows debate will rage on as it has done for many years until possibly one of them disappear. I wonder which one.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: bkenobi on August 21, 2018, 11:07:25 AM
I posted an installer on the HG club forum.  I think someone else was working on a better one using a different approach.  I submitted the script in the hopes that there could be a hosted web link that you could use wget on the RPi to pull the maintained script and it would just work.  I don't know if they ever did anything with my script or the one they already had as I haven't been on that forum recently (doesn't work from my office PC due to proxy filters).
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: petera on August 21, 2018, 11:42:05 AM
I just stuck with V526 and havenít made any changes of late. I donít think thereís been much in the way of new development other than packaging methods and as I already have my own way of installing HomeGenie itís no really of interest to me.

I look-in from time to time though. Probably from a nostalgia point of view.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: dhouston on August 21, 2018, 12:26:45 PM
The Linux/Windows debate will rage on as it has done for many years until possibly one of them disappear. I wonder which one.
Given current market shares - approx. Windows 90%, MAC 8%, Linux 2% - one does wonder.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: petera on August 21, 2018, 01:18:13 PM
The Linux/Windows debate will rage on as it has done for many years until possibly one of them disappear. I wonder which one.
Given current market shares - approx. Windows 90%, MAC 8%, Linux 2% - one does wonder.

Indeed but also consider the direction each one is going in. As they say when you're No 1 there's only one direction you can go interesting article here. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/low-windows-adoption-rates-means-microsoft-could-be-losing-grip-on-the-enterprise/
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: HA Dave on August 21, 2018, 01:27:13 PM
Given current market shares - approx. Windows 90%, MAC 8%, Linux 2% - one does wonder.

Looks like Linux is only about a trillion dollars behind Apple. That should be an easy over-take... huh.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: bkenobi on August 21, 2018, 02:10:05 PM
That isn't quite an accurate description of how much of the market Linux holds.  If you want to compare correctly, you'd note that Linux is the backbone for MacOS.  It also is what AndroidOS is based on.  So, if you count phones and tablets into the market share, I'd say Windows is on a steep downward slope considering the number of people who don't know what a computer is.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: petera on August 21, 2018, 02:10:47 PM
Given current market shares - approx. Windows 90%, MAC 8%, Linux 2% - one does wonder.

Looks like Linux is only about a trillion dollars behind Apple. That should be an easy over-take... huh.

Yes a bit like Big Blue (IBM) back in the '70s. Untouchable then but then the world changed. Who knows what lies ahead.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: Tuicemen on August 21, 2018, 02:14:22 PM
To make future Pi installs easier in the future maybe we need a "KISS Scripts"  thread where users can post installer scripts.
These can save a newbie many hours of hair pulling.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: bkenobi on August 21, 2018, 02:19:54 PM
I can't find an accurate count that I can figure out the source to see where Linux vs Windows vs... is right now.  Wikipedia claims 1.3B for Android (Linux) and 283M for Windows.  I would really like to see a better chart but this is all 5 minutes found.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Worldwide_device_shipments
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: dhouston on August 21, 2018, 02:22:11 PM
These can save a newbie many hours of hair pulling.
Most X10 users have little hair left to pull.  :'
But, seeing the struggles exhibited here over the past few weeks, Pi scripts seems like a no brainer idea.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: dhouston on August 21, 2018, 02:26:30 PM
I can't find an accurate count that I can figure out the source to see where Linux vs Windows vs... is right now.  Wikipedia claims 1.3B for Android (Linux) and 283M for Windows.  I would really like to see a better chart but this is all 5 minutes found.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Worldwide_device_shipments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Worldwide_device_shipments)
How's this?
https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?options=%7B%22filter%22%3A%7B%22%24and%22%3A%5B%7B%22deviceType%22%3A%7B%22%24in%22%3A%5B%22Desktop%2Flaptop%22%5D%7D%7D%5D%7D%2C%22dateLabel%22%3A%22Trend%22%2C%22attributes%22%3A%22share%22%2C%22group%22%3A%22platform%22%2C%22sort%22%3A%7B%22share%22%3A-1%7D%2C%22id%22%3A%22platformsDesktop%22%2C%22dateInterval%22%3A%22Monthly%22%2C%22dateStart%22%3A%222017-08%22%2C%22dateEnd%22%3A%222018-07%22%2C%22segments%22%3A%22-1000%22%7D (https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?options=%7B%22filter%22%3A%7B%22%24and%22%3A%5B%7B%22deviceType%22%3A%7B%22%24in%22%3A%5B%22Desktop%2Flaptop%22%5D%7D%7D%5D%7D%2C%22dateLabel%22%3A%22Trend%22%2C%22attributes%22%3A%22share%22%2C%22group%22%3A%22platform%22%2C%22sort%22%3A%7B%22share%22%3A-1%7D%2C%22id%22%3A%22platformsDesktop%22%2C%22dateInterval%22%3A%22Monthly%22%2C%22dateStart%22%3A%222017-08%22%2C%22dateEnd%22%3A%222018-07%22%2C%22segments%22%3A%22-1000%22%7D)
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: Tuicemen on August 21, 2018, 02:33:38 PM
These can save a newbie many hours of hair pulling.
Most X10 users have little hair left to pull.  :'
But, seeing the struggles exhibited here over the past few weeks, Pi scripts seems like a no brainer idea.
rofl Thanks Dave, Good thing I had my wife shave my head a couple of weeks ago so what little I have left is hard to get a good hold of.
Or maybe I should have not had that done, the razor could be retired by now.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: dhouston on August 21, 2018, 02:42:42 PM
If you want to compare correctly, you'd note that Linux is the backbone for MacOS.
Actually, what became MacOS predates Linux.https://itsfoss.com/mac-linux-difference/ (https://itsfoss.com/mac-linux-difference/)

Quote
It also is what AndroidOS is based on.  So, if you count phones and tablets into the market share, I'd say Windows is on a steep downward slope considering the number of people who don't know what a computer is.
OK, but I think the Pi is more kin to early PCs than to phones.
The real test will be when Windows is ported to the Pi.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: Tuicemen on August 21, 2018, 02:48:44 PM
The real test will be when Windows is ported to the Pi.
Yep I believe we'll see a lot of movement then.
I had hoped Windows core would have been compatible with the 3B+. If it had been I most likely would have installed it first to play with.
The options for the 3B+ OS is limited right now. :(
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: docbell on August 21, 2018, 03:01:19 PM
How's this?
https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?options=%7B%22filter%22%3A%7B%22%24and%22%3A%5B%7B%22deviceType%22%3A%7B%22%24in%22%3A%5B%22Desktop%2Flaptop%22%5D%7D%7D%5D%7D%2C%22dateLabel%22%3A%22Trend%22%2C%22attributes%22%3A%22share%22%2C%22group%22%3A%22platform%22%2C%22sort%22%3A%7B%22share%22%3A-1%7D%2C%22id%22%3A%22platformsDesktop%22%2C%22dateInterval%22%3A%22Monthly%22%2C%22dateStart%22%3A%222017-08%22%2C%22dateEnd%22%3A%222018-07%22%2C%22segments%22%3A%22-1000%22%7D (https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?options=%7B%22filter%22%3A%7B%22%24and%22%3A%5B%7B%22deviceType%22%3A%7B%22%24in%22%3A%5B%22Desktop%2Flaptop%22%5D%7D%7D%5D%7D%2C%22dateLabel%22%3A%22Trend%22%2C%22attributes%22%3A%22share%22%2C%22group%22%3A%22platform%22%2C%22sort%22%3A%7B%22share%22%3A-1%7D%2C%22id%22%3A%22platformsDesktop%22%2C%22dateInterval%22%3A%22Monthly%22%2C%22dateStart%22%3A%222017-08%22%2C%22dateEnd%22%3A%222018-07%22%2C%22segments%22%3A%22-1000%22%7D)

This is excellent, because it distinguishes between desktop and embedded systems. I suspect that for desktops, Windows will remain the favorite for the foreseeable future, with MacOS well behind but possibly gaining, and Linux still (always?) the next great thing. Linux/Android has to be it for embedded systems. Windows run at the mobile phone business seems to have failed. It still shows up in displays, point-of-sale systems, and elsewhere, but I suspect it is loosing ground.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: dhouston on August 21, 2018, 03:13:47 PM
The real test will be when Windows is ported to the Pi.
Yep I believe we'll see a lot of movement then.
I expect it will happen but There are many different ARM chips and I don't think it's one-size-fits-all like it was with Intel & PCs.
https://www.windows-arm.com/ (https://www.windows-arm.com/)
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: petera on August 21, 2018, 06:42:33 PM
As they say, lies, damn lies and statistics. Who knows what to believe in a world of fake news :'(

Scripts are definitely the way forward for those starting out in the world of the Raspberry Pi. The only drawback I see is that they have to be kept up to date. Nothing worse than to see the dreaded E:unable to locate package package-name on the Terminal. A change in repository name or location is usually the culprit and you need to add a new repository in this case. Potential users need to know this.

What we need to do is find a platform that appeals the most and contribute to it as much as we can. The important thing is to get the platform installed and working and then we can move on from there. Once the X10 side of things are working we can develop other aspects of home automation.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: docbell on August 21, 2018, 07:10:49 PM
The real test will be when Windows is ported to the Pi.
Yep I believe we'll see a lot of movement then.
I expect it will happen but There are many different ARM chips and I don't think it's one-size-fits-all like it was with Intel & PCs.
https://www.windows-arm.com/ (https://www.windows-arm.com/)
There's also a lot of speculation about moving macOS to ARM, (https://www.macworld.com/article/3268029/macs/why-the-next-mac-processor-transition-wont-be-like-the-last-two.html (https://www.macworld.com/article/3268029/macs/why-the-next-mac-processor-transition-wont-be-like-the-last-two.html)) but with a subtle difference. Microsoft would like to see Windows run on as many devices as possible, almost regardless of performance, because it sells copies of Windows. Apple will move (as it has in the past) only if performance improves enough to let it sell more machines or boost its profit margins.
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: dhouston on August 22, 2018, 07:08:23 AM
Microsoft would like to see Windows run on as many devices as possible, almost regardless of performance, because it sells copies of Windows.
Given the low cost of the Pi, it's unlikely that Microsoft will reap much in profits but it would be better for them were all the beginners learning computers using a Pi learning Windows instead a version of Linux
Title: Re: KISS my PI!!
Post by: bkenobi on August 22, 2018, 10:33:21 AM
I saw that link Dave actually.  I liked it, but it didn't have a succinct share of each OS variant I could suse out.  I could pretty easily infer that Windows mobile platform is dead and desktop dominates, but I didn't want to try to add up all of the different Android, Mac, and iOS variants from a curve.  I looked for the source data for a few seconds before finding the wikipedia page which mostly answered my personal question.  If they had the data exposed, I'd really like to spend 15 minutes running some numbers, but I just didn't see it.