X10 Community Forum

X10 WIFI => General Discussion => Topic started by: Knightrider on September 24, 2018, 10:28:35 AM

Title: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on September 24, 2018, 10:28:35 AM
I want to know who's paying for the server? I don't think its x10. That being said, what happens to the WM100 when someone stops paying for the service?

I readily doubt it's a one time fee, but could be wrong.

I'm just now getting into learning how this all works.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on September 24, 2018, 10:37:35 AM
Better yet, someone like me that has maxed out his WM100 uses quite a bit more data requests than the casual user.

I priced Alibaba cloud services at around 14 USD per month per million messages.  I'm guessing I use around 30 per day.

30365=10,950.

Let's say 1,000 of these units have been sold. That's almost 11 million messages.

I can't see that as a sustainable business model.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on September 24, 2018, 10:38:46 AM
These things could become bricks much faster than expected.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on September 24, 2018, 10:43:39 AM
Ok, so my math is off by calculating yearly traffic and comparing it to monthly billing, but my point remains the same.

There is no free lunch and someone has to pay the band.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Tuicemen on September 24, 2018, 10:47:08 AM
All the more reason for local control.
Even better would be the ability to flash the firmware with  ones own.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on September 24, 2018, 10:48:15 AM
Not sure this was thought out.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Tuicemen on September 24, 2018, 10:49:47 AM
From replies to my emails to Authinx about the server outages it would appear the factory is looking after the server.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on September 24, 2018, 10:53:19 AM
Until they get mad or fired or outsourced.  By holding the code hostage, they ensure a monopoly on production.

Checkmate.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: JeffVolp on September 24, 2018, 11:15:31 AM
There is no free lunch and someone has to pay the band.

As many of us found out with ActiveHome Pro when X10WTI went belly up.

Jeff
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: petera on September 24, 2018, 07:57:59 PM
As they say "a hostage to fortune". Once I buy something I like to own it.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Tuicemen on September 25, 2018, 08:21:11 AM
Until they get mad or fired or outsourced.  By holding the code hostage, they ensure a monopoly on production.

Checkmate.
This the main reason we need to find a way to flash this thing! The factory could release a firmware which would render all WM100s bricks.
This almost happened in a previous release but testers like myself were only affected.
There are so many ways we can be affected.
The factory could at some point decide you have to pay for cloud service B:(
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: dave w on September 25, 2018, 04:44:29 PM
what happens to the WM100 when someone stops paying for the service?
A great unhappiness and darkness will descend on our community (but likely in the opposite order).
I'm sorry but sometimes I can't help myself.

On a serious note: IF the factory does indeed control the server, we Willy owners are in a precarious position. Dave Rye once wrote about how the Chinese government wanted the land that the X10 and the Radio Shack PnP factories were located. The managers of the factories were told the bulldozers would be there in three weeks. Rye related the panic that rippled through X10 WTI. They survived by selling non X10 tablets, security systems, cameras, etc. for a year while they sourced another manufacturer. Old X10'ers will remember this period.

The point is; in China, nothing is for certain, except maybe the government.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: HA Dave on September 25, 2018, 06:25:33 PM
These things could become bricks much faster than expected.

They will.... faster than some expected... but they may last much longer than others would have guessed. Maybe we should start a pool? I think Americans (older Americans) still have concepts of gadget lifespans that are equal to old-fashioned America (pre-WW2) manufacturing. The old vinyl records.... if cared for properly... lasted for decades. Even if the music imprinted on them was only popular for a few weeks.

I think Asian concepts of a electronic gadgets lifespan may be much more accurate. Everything lasts a few months... or maybe a year or two... then we move on to something else.

I've recently had to reevaluate my DVD/Blue Ray collection. Whereas it is nice to have tangible entertainment.... why waste the space they consume. When nearly everything can be streamed when and where I want to see it. Videos are a perfect example of ownership compared to monthly fee for use. Ownership.... can be very limiting.     

The point is; in China, nothing is for certain....

And here..... I thought things might be different in different places.

Fact is.... nothing is forever. All these people concerned about their Home Automation being a service. Like somehow they've figured out how to OWN their electric power, cable/satellite TV, Internet, or phone. Even if you own your home.... government powers will certainly demand a TAX... for your privilege of ownership.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on September 25, 2018, 07:40:31 PM
Dave, you're making the point that this unit isn't worth the pricetag.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: JeffVolp on September 25, 2018, 09:40:18 PM
I think Asian concepts of a electronic gadgets lifespan may be much more accurate. Everything lasts a few months... or maybe a year or two... then we move on to something else.

I think most of us here have been using X10 for much longer than a "year or two".  I started with the brown BSR modules and the clock timer with the blue display back in the 80's.  And our XTB devices are intended to have a similar life span.

Jeff
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: SkipWX10 on September 25, 2018, 09:46:05 PM
Agree that most X10 users are likely longer term users than a year or two. I have been using X10 since the late 70's/early 80's (can't remember exactly when my buddy turned me on the RS PnP products)

One reason we are 'long term' though is most likely because the protocol is old. If Alexa was around in the 70's we'd probably still be chatting with her. The new or short term user is most likely the new user who has just been introduced to HA through the IoT or current devices....
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on September 25, 2018, 10:31:14 PM
I still have my original plug n power timer. Still have 2 4x4 mini controllers branded radio shack. I'm guessing I have over 20 RS lamp and appliance modules.

Some of these are going on 30 years old.

I've ebayed even older BSR modules. Made in Maylasia. Before x10 went to Hong Kong.

They all still work.

If the WM100 is designed to fail at 18 months, what's the point?
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: HA Dave on September 25, 2018, 11:03:55 PM
Dave, you're making the point that this unit isn't worth the pricetag.

Well maybe! I never quite understood where X10 was heading with this remote. Although... it is a fine remote, except for the flaws.

I think... if there is a lesson to be learned here... it's that everything we know nothing about always looks very easy to do. International product development might sound really easy.... but they might have needed an expert.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: HA Dave on September 25, 2018, 11:14:11 PM
I think most of us here have been using X10 for much longer than a "year or two".  I started with the brown BSR modules and the clock timer with the blue display back in the 80's.  And our XTB devices are intended to have a similar life span.

You make my point Jeff. Older Americans... expect everything to last like durable goods. I am NOT saying we're wrong. but our world view [paradigm] is just that. And doesn't expose any Vidal, universal truth. Some people believe... if a product is developing and improving at an exponential rate... it would be foolish to make it last for very long. exponentially developing technologies require cheap new products every few months.
 
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: JeffVolp on September 26, 2018, 12:20:35 AM
Some people believe... if a product is developing and improving at an exponential rate... it would be foolish to make it last for very long. exponentially developing technologies require cheap new products every few months.

Ah, the throw away society.  Consume resources and dump the products they create in landfills when a newer version comes out.  I believe in designing products that last.  Of course that is not a sustainable business plan once saturation is achieved.

Jeff
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: brobin on September 26, 2018, 12:36:34 AM

Fact is.... nothing is forever. All these people concerned about their Home Automation being a service. Like somehow they've figured out how to OWN their electric power, cable/satellite TV, Internet, or phone. Even if you own your home.... government powers will certainly demand a TAX... for your privilege of ownership.

True, nothing lasts forever but many of us have indeed figured out how to operate autonomously. For the two weeks after Hurricane Irma last year when electric and cable were out, we had a 48kw genset, a 1000 gal tank of propane and a TV antenna mounted in the attic. At least within our 4 walls, things were cool, comfortable and pretty normal.  The pool didn't turn green and we didn't have a mold festival in our house because none of the systems needed the cloud. They can all be controlled through it but they don't rely on it.  As for the taxes, well, that's what paid to clean up the whole mess and provide needed services and security.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: brobin on September 26, 2018, 12:59:52 AM

One reason we are 'long term' though is most likely because the protocol is old. If Alexa was around in the 70's we'd probably still be chatting with her. The new or short term user is most likely the new user who has just been introduced to HA through the IoT or current devices....

So true. If you Google 'home automation' now, X10 doesn't even show up until the 4th search result page - a place rarely visited. Few if any new HA customers will find or know about X10 and will simply go WifI control or Zwave.  Most of us have enough modules to last our lifetimes and can buy more on ebay for 10 or 12 bucks apiece.  That doesn't bode well for Authinx' bottom line.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on September 26, 2018, 06:40:04 AM
Some of you old radio guy may chuckle when I say I'm using a Plectron P4 at the house to alert me of our fire tones. That's a quality receiver.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: HA Dave on September 26, 2018, 04:04:04 PM
Ah, the throw away society

Yep... although that term is considered derogatory.

Consume resources and dump the products they create in landfills when a newer version comes out.


Consume? Or is it exploit? NO resource on planet Earth is expected to last forever... by anyone. Science and religions agree... even mankind is only a temporary visitor. If the resources available to us aren't used.... they will be sinfully wasted. We're tourist here! Look around, see things, have a good time.

I believe in designing products that last.  Of course that is not a sustainable business plan once saturation is achieved.

I think most business plans concern themselves more with making profit. No one like waste. Most people dislike poverty more.

Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: HA Dave on September 26, 2018, 04:09:39 PM
For the two weeks after Hurricane Irma last year when electric and cable were out, we had a 48kw genset, a 1000 gal tank of propane and a TV antenna mounted in the attic. At least within our 4 walls, things were cool, comfortable and pretty normal......

I am a bit of a boy scout myself. I also believe in being as prepared as I can be. I think I could turn Prepper except my wife would kill me (I keep my bug-out bag hidden).
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: HA Dave on September 26, 2018, 04:18:28 PM
... Most of us have enough modules to last our lifetimes and can buy more on ebay for 10 or 12 bucks apiece.  That doesn't bode well for Authinx' bottom line.

And that is what concerns me the most too. But... X10 can still exploit the fact that X10 doesn't tie-up vital bandwidth. And... if they join-in with the other flavors and brands of Home Automation... X10 could remain a big brand name in the biz. But it needs a short, medium, and long-term plan. A vision for X10 and its customers. The old hob-nob with the foreign vendors and throw-out what they come up with..... ain't going to get it. 
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: dave w on September 26, 2018, 07:49:03 PM
Some of you old radio guy may chuckle when I say I'm using a Plectron P4 at the house to alert me of our fire tones. That's a quality receiver.
I bet you have a Motorola Pagecom laying around somewhere also.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on September 26, 2018, 09:12:13 PM
Some of you old radio guy may chuckle when I say I'm using a Plectron P4 at the house to alert me of our fire tones. That's a quality receiver.
I bet you have a Motorola Pagecom laying around somewhere also.

I do, but its nonfunctional.  The plectron has had its crystal replaced with an oscillator circuit.

I really need to pitch some stuff. I have several low band pacfones, and 2 or three kenwood and M highland transceivers.  We're moving to the MARCS Paco p25 system here and soon all will be obsolete.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Mic_ on October 04, 2018, 05:29:52 AM
Every now and then I pop in here to see the state of X10 as voiced by the true veterans. from what I have read, it appears that there is a sense of futility to this brand. If the WM100 will peter out, it spells the end of X10? I have been on this nostalgic ride for quite some time; but, even I know that if a brand is not profitable, that brand closes shop...I will dream with the rest of you folks...To be continued
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: HA Dave on October 04, 2018, 02:49:10 PM
Many of these threads remind me of the old days of going to dinner with my first wife.

No matter how hard I would try to steer the conversation on where to go..... she inevitably would recite complaints about every restaurant in the area.

Sometimes.... you just have to know when it's time to move on.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Knightrider on October 04, 2018, 06:13:53 PM
I still steer clear of restaurants known to spread Hepatitis A. It's kinda like why I prefer to keep my head out of the cloud.
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: brobin on October 04, 2018, 10:04:32 PM
I still steer clear of restaurants known to spread Hepatitis A. It's kinda like why I prefer to keep my head out of the cloud.

 rofl rofl :)% >!
Title: Re: Who's Footing The Bill?
Post by: Mic_ on October 05, 2018, 05:37:33 AM
I believe I get the hint. Thanks folks