X10 Community Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: petera on October 11, 2018, 06:42:01 PM

Title: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 11, 2018, 06:42:01 PM
Just wondering if a poll could be set up on this area of the forum as I imagine it is probably a well read area. I believe approximately ten active users have expressed an interest in this subject but it would be nice to get a more accurate figure.

I imagine a lot of users don't even visit the Raspberry Pi area of the forum.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Knightrider on October 12, 2018, 07:31:33 AM
I added one.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 12, 2018, 07:43:41 AM
I added one.

Thanks.

It's had 18 reads and two votes so far. The suspense is killing me  rofl
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 13, 2018, 12:05:21 PM
I’m thinking the CM19a and a plug in transceiver to cover rf and pl might be the way forward X10 hardware wise. Probably the Raspberry Pi Zero WH to keep the footprint as small as possible.

If anyone has other suggestions just fire away.

Now all we need is to agree on is the software platform to run all this. Plenty to choose from so any suggestions more than welcome.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 13, 2018, 01:28:02 PM
I imagine a lot of users don't even visit the Raspberry Pi area of the forum.

Years ago.... their were other Linux user groups here... and at other Home Automation forums.

It was well understood at the time.... that the Linux members were really Linux hobbyist… not Home Automation hobbyist. But from time-to-time the Linux guys would have X10 user issues which we would do our best to help with.

Most Linux/Pi users will go to their Linux/Pi Web Sites with setup problems and questions. Which... of course... makes perfect sense. Until the Pi set-up goes main stream (like Home Automation has) you may not attract the attention you'd like (and that the Pi units deserve). If you want to popularize the Pi units with X10... you have to remove the "hobby" factor. Stop teaching Pi/Linux/Raspbian/alternate OS's, etc..

Get a "WORKING" set-up! Something that we can use..... not a new hobby we can take-up in the middle of yard-work season. Just... MHO.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 13, 2018, 02:30:15 PM
I added one.

Thanks.

It's had 18 reads and two votes so far. The suspense is killing me  rofl
I always found polls got little votes. For the time it takes to do I don't understand why they don't get more activity.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 13, 2018, 02:49:43 PM
I’m thinking the CM19a and a plug in transceiver to cover rf and pl might be the way forward X10 hardware wise. Probably the Raspberry Pi Zero WH to keep the footprint as small as possible.

If anyone has other suggestions just fire away.

Now all we need is to agree on is the software platform to run all this. Plenty to choose from so any suggestions more than welcome.
The CM15 is my current choice to run with the PI the PI zero W even fits inside the cm15.
Of course if the CM15 was to get an overhaul with better PLC and RF it would I suspect be everyone's choice. ::)

As for software I believe user here mostly want easy to setup without having to search for extra drivers and play around with for days on end to get simple HA control.

Get a "WORKING" set-up! Something that we can use..... not a new hobby we can take-up in the middle of yard-work season. Just... MHO.
I've had a simple "WORKING" X10 setup running well now for several months.
I originally figured from reading your and others exploits that this would be just a hobby to play with on rainy days.

This was not the case with HomeGenie simple x10 control was up and running in less time then it took to write a SD card.
Adding macros and timers too were a simple add. Customized things with adding Alexa control, security, and special Camera macros took a bit longer but no longer then my special AHP macros. all my HA needs are now off the PC and running on a PI and CM15

I've tried a few other Linux softwares and although they may be more actively being developed they are not as easy to get working for X10 (just my lack of linux experiance mostly).


Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 13, 2018, 04:18:47 PM
I’m thinking the CM19a and a plug in transceiver to cover rf and pl might be the way forward X10 hardware wise. Probably the Raspberry Pi Zero WH to keep the footprint as small as possible.

If anyone has other suggestions just fire away.

Now all we need is to agree on is the software platform to run all this. Plenty to choose from so any suggestions more than welcome.
The CM15 is my current choice to run with the PI the PI zero W even fits inside the cm15.
Of course if the CM15 was to get an overhaul with better PLC and RF it would I suspect be everyone's choice. ::)

As for software I believe user here mostly want easy to setup without having to search for extra drivers and play around with for days on end to get simple HA control.

Get a "WORKING" set-up! Something that we can use..... not a new hobby we can take-up in the middle of yard-work season. Just... MHO.
I've had a simple "WORKING" X10 setup running well now for several months.
I originally figured from reading your and others exploits that this would be just a hobby to play with on rainy days.

This was not the case with HomeGenie simple x10 control was up and running in less time then it took to write a SD card.
Adding macros and timers too were a simple add. Customized things with adding Alexa control, security, and special Camera macros took a bit longer but no longer then my special AHP macros. all my HA needs are now off the PC and running on a PI and CM15

I've tried a few other Linux softwares and although they may be more actively being developed they are not as easy to get working for X10 (just my lack of linux experiance mostly).

I'd like to keep this subject as positive as possible.

I'm only too aware that a certain cohort would not give Linux or its variants the time pf day for whatever reasons, good or bad. I respect that. I wasn't aiming this post at them as can be seen from the title of the post.

The Pi unit is at the end of the day an educational board that has evolved far beyond its original purpose. Contrary to some beliefs it is not going away and has in fact renergised interest in a market that is flooded with smart phones and smart tablets with little or no access to their working parts and very little chance of the ordinary man or woman in the street learning anything about their inner workings.

Regarding a working set up, it's there. It's working and believe it or not it has does have Microsoft related  "bits" inside it too. The problem is because it doesn't have a large price tag attached there must be something wrong with it.

In fact for those who are not aware of it, there's a unit called a Hometroller from a company called Homeseer. This unit is a fairly low speced, in today's terms, Raspberry Pi in a case complete with their company logo with an older scaled down version of the company's automation software with limitations on what plugins can be used. Price tagged at $199.95. Interestingly there could be one or two users who actually own and run one on this forum. And yes its run by the dreaded Linux OS Raspbian. This system is no different from the one myself and Tuicemen are suggesting.

For all the time, attention and dedication given to the WM100 I'd hardly call it a working solution either. In fact I'd attach it to the other end of the handle of my yard brush so I could lean on it in between brushing sessions
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 13, 2018, 04:39:35 PM
The WM100 was never designed to be a power user module it was more designed for users the were using Firecracker software and interface not users that were use to AHP and interface.

I like to thing of the WM100  as a cm11 in its infancy.I often thought of adding a WM100 Wi-fi daughter board to a CM15 but A Pi or SBC adds so much more.
An improved CM15 with embedded PI or SBC would be the ultamate x10 controler. If I could only convice Authinx of that! ::) :'
My embeded SBC CM15 even has a free USB port to allow a Zwave stick or other protocol dongle. ;)
And HomeGenie is already for Zwave, no extra drivers need to be installed. :)%
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 13, 2018, 05:09:02 PM

And HomeGenie is already for Zwave, no extra drivers need to be installed. :)%

And more importantly in this case X10 simple.

My aim would be to dispense with the CM15 and the old macros/timers mindset on the X10 controller and the requirement for an additional power outlet as the CM19 is powered directly from the Pi. I'm still waiting for delivery of the CM19 I ordered last week.

I've no objection to using HomeGenie for the purposes of helping users get X10 Raspberry Pi ready.

This project would be by no means a hobbyist aspiration. I've neither the time nor the inclination to get involved at that level. It's proven to work and that's all that concerns me.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 13, 2018, 05:24:18 PM
My preferance of the cm15 over the 19 is the included RF no need for a tranciever there is no need for the cm15 memory or clock as that is in a PI. I also believe a redesigned cm15 could power a Pi directly.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 13, 2018, 06:04:35 PM
My preferance of the cm15 over the 19 is the included RF no need for a tranciever there is no need for the cm15 memory or clock as that is in a PI. I also believe a redesigned cm15 could power a Pi directly.

Is the rf signal problematic on the CM15. Is the rf signal on the the CM19 any better.

Are you powering your Pi Zero directly from a CM15. Have you any inline circuit protection for the Pi Zero. It's a sensitive piece of kit.

I imagine a redesigned X10 controller could encompass something like a Pi or a variant giving the user freedom to design their X10/home automation as they choose. That would definitely be the domain of @JeffVolp and @dhoustan.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 13, 2018, 06:42:36 PM


Is the rf signal problematic on the CM15. Is the rf signal on the the CM19 any better.

Are you powering your Pi Zero directly from a CM15. Have you any inline circuit protection for the Pi Zero. It's a sensitive piece of kit.

Some users report issues with RF and the Cm15 but I've never encountered that I find the RF signal to be the same from both the cm15 and cm19neither seems to be better then the other in my tests at least.

My PIs and other SBC are not powered from a CM15. I had looked into doing that but couldn't get voltage or amps I was comfortable trying.
Like I stated my original thought of the PI X10 was a rainy day hobby I didn't expect it to be running my HA setup so smoothly so quickly. I don't wish to take one out of operation to experiment so I had to order an extra Cm15 and Pi Zero W  so I had a rainy day hobby  rofl
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: dhouston on October 13, 2018, 06:53:10 PM
Very early in the WM100 Era I suggested Authinx should release a supported Pi + software that would be plug'n'play for users. It could communicate with the WM100 via WiFi and could support RF RX/TX as well as link with other WiFi modules. I still think this would be the best way forward.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 13, 2018, 07:04:10 PM
Very early in the WM100 Era I suggested Authinx should release a supported Pi + software that would be plug'n'play for users. It could communicate with the WM100 via WiFi and could support RF RX/TX as well as link with other WiFi modules. I still think this would be the best way forward.

It certainly sounds like it would be. As previously discussed the Authinx business model doesn't sound like it going in this direction though. The question is what direction to take it in now.

I do understand that while the expertise is available on this forum to make this happen does anyone still have the appetite to do it.

The Raspberry Pi Zero W and a suitably designed X10 controller seems like the obvious answer. The Pi Zero W acts like a drop in module into the X10 controller.

Do you see this as a feasible option.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 13, 2018, 07:16:12 PM
I found Neil Cherry's article quite interesting. It's probably been posted here before but still worth a read https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/4312
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 15, 2018, 01:43:29 PM
Thanks for all the feedback.

My OP mentioning that approximately 10 users were interested in X10 on the Raspberry Pi was fairly accurate. Now all we need to figure out is what each of those 10 users would like to get out of this.

Maybe you could post your comments on what way you would like to see this develop for you and we could put together some form of hardware/software package recommendation based on those needs.

A number of platforms have already been suggested and Tuicemen has put together some scripts in the Raspberry Pi section of the forum to get you started. Once you have decided what route to take we can step you through the process.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 15, 2018, 02:47:48 PM
Yes it would be nice to see just what users may be interested in.
Just X10 control simular to what the WM100 provides, but without the need of a cloud based server?
X10 control like what AHP and a transceiver (cm15,19 or 11) provides?
X10 control like AHP with all plugins and a transceiver provides?
Simple X10 voice control via Alexa or Google?
Everything X10, more control then AHP and all plugins (voice control & weather and other optional triggers)?

Realy the possibilities are endless thought the more options one wishes for the more time it takes to setup.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 15, 2018, 03:32:37 PM
Yes it would be nice to see just what users may be interested in.
Just X10 control simular to what the WM100 provides, but without the need of a cloud based server?
X10 control like what AHP and a transceiver (cm15,19 or 11) provides?
X10 control like AHP with all plugins and a transceiver provides?
Simple X10 voice control via Alexa or Google?
Everything X10, more control then AHP and all plugins (voice control & weather and other optional triggers)?

Realy the possibilities are endless thought the more options one wishes for the more time it takes to setup.

Maybe the pure X10 approach to start with. The WM100 approach seems to be a popular choice so maybe we could recreate that blueprint with everything working as it should be. Once that's achieved we can add to it as and when each user requires it.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 15, 2018, 07:39:28 PM
I've had a simple "WORKING" X10 setup running well now for several months.

I was unaware of that. It should be posted somewhere.

I originally figured from reading your and others exploits that this would be just a hobby to play with on rainy days.

I guess you could call X10 a hobby... it is for most... I am sure. I think of my automation as more of a lifestyle. Unfortunately... when you were originally experimenting with a Pi-X10 download... the summer season had begun. Summer is a busy time for me.... more so now than when I was employed.

When the original version had bugs.... and then the thread was locked... I apparently lost track of your accomplishments. I thought you had moved the whole project to your own web site.

This was not the case with HomeGenie simple x10 control was up and running in less time then it took to write a SD card.

I'd like to try that out.
But I am not interested in a new programing hobby that involves learning raspbian. I KNOW the little Pi devices have huge potential.... as my Homeseer device is a Pi unit. The only problem with using Homeseer to control X10 is... Homeseer is NOT really interested in supporting X10. So... then I have to try on my purchasing agent hat.... and look at the price/costs of switching flavors/brands that has readily available devices and hubs.

An affordable Pi X10 hub.... is a perfect fix for any and all of X10 problems if it allows Cloud/Alexa-google IFTTT connectivity (with local control a serious plus for many). 

I've enjoyed voice control for more than a decade now.... and REALLY enjoy the added advantages of cloud assisted automation. Mixing calendars, schedules, reminders, timers, music, and movie streaming with my lighting control is awesome. No way am I going back... if I don't have to.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 16, 2018, 06:14:37 AM
The whole idea of X10 on the Raspberry Pi is the promotion of a community initiative. The forum members will drive the development.

There are a number of commercial home automation products in the marketplace that utilise the Raspberry Pi but X10 is not officially supported on any of them. Homeseer for example in its earlier incarnation officially supported X10 but since it's last major upgrade that official support has now been dropped and is provided on an ad hoc basis.

For those who have now expressed an interest in X10 on the Raspberry Pi, we need to agree the best route to go about this. As Tuicemen stated the setup procedures to achieve this are no more difficult than writing a few macros in AHP. Absolutely no requirement to learn a new OS. Just follow the logical steps provided to achieve a result.

One thing that is required is a little patience and positivity working through the initial setup and once that's achieved you will be presented with a very capable X10 controller which will be free of any dependence on manufacturers ability or inability to provide you with the features you require when you require them.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 16, 2018, 08:39:28 AM
...… One thing that is required is a little patience and positivity working through the initial setup and once that's achieved you will be presented with a very capable X10 controller which will be free of any dependence on manufacturers ability or inability to provide you with the features you require when you require them.

That sorta sounds nicer than the "this is a good way for beginners to learn Raspbian"..... but really aren't you actually posting the same thing... reworded??? Was the download(s) ever fixed and now work..... or does this require specialized changes (AKA coding) to make the setup function???

Many of us have worked diligently for many years here at the forum to help fellow X10 users have working setups. NEVER... have any of the members here that I am aware of.... stooped to anything less than an honest representation. 

It's OK to have hobby's other than X10 automation! It's OK to have an interest in programming. It's OK to like Linux, raspbian, or any alternate OS... as far as I am concerned. But decide one way or the other...… is this an X10 solution or Raspbian, Linux, "free-software" advocacy. Then move the direction you chose and promote it that way.

Get your pose in order.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 16, 2018, 08:51:32 AM
The beginner install threads I started for HomeGenie and HA-Bridge were locked to keep them on topic and discussion posts moved to another thread. I figured any updates would get lost in a long thread.
My HG & Bridge setup was already running smoothly when I started those threads.

The Alexa Bridge Project thread I started did have bugs in the initial script But this was quickly solved. Since user input and interest was low I did move the actual installer to my site for anyone wishing to test.
Since the Alexa Project uses a different driver then my HomeGenie setup I could not run both on a Single PI and switching SD drives seemed pointless for improving something which showed little interest. Of the few users that actually installed this none have reported issues with the install. Any issues reported were Amazon server related.
I still have Alexa Control however I use the HomeGenie X10 driver instead of using Mochad.

True I don't have a specific thread detailing my PI HA setups, the closest I have to this is the threads for my off grid and city place. Both of which have been running a WORKING PI, HG, & Bridge setup for months. Since my summer months are spent at the off grid place that setup is much larger as I add things. The city place setup is much smaller but has been working untouched other then when a power blip corupted my SD card. Although I can log into my city setup from the off grid place and add to it via the cloud I prefer not to. I have however logged in and updated HG via the cloud. All this can be done with my phone if I wished either using the browser of HG app.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 16, 2018, 10:23:17 AM
The bottom line here is that there's a working X10 controller based Raspberry Pi solution available to try now. I'd not be discussing this matter here if the WM100 did what it promised to do. The fact that it's not we are where we are now.

@Tuicemen I'll assume it's the HomeGenie route so best to start with a simplistic X10 setup along the lines of AHP so any potential users can familiarise themselves with the HomeGenie environment. From there you could modularise any further enhancements as and when users require them, such as the Bridge for Alexa, voice control etc. The biggest investment here is a Raspberry Pi kit and a piece of your time. Not a large investment for the return you're likely to receive.

The results of the poll are in. Ten forum members would like a crack at X10 on the Raspberry Pi. Let's give them what they voted for.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 17, 2018, 09:53:05 AM
The beginner install threads I started for HomeGenie and HA-Bridge were locked to keep them on topic...….

It is a sad, shame, you decided to take that direction. Locking a thread is a topic killer... always has been. A locked thread is "literally" history. No body goes to a forum to study the history of cutting edge technology.

We've had some VERY long, rambling, and very successful threads here. I think the idea of locking your thread... was bad advice... and cut the legs out from under your original idea.

I also think the idea of converting this forum in any part.... to a sub-set of the free software advocacy.... is a bad idea and a disservice to X10 (who own this forum). After all.... X10 (and this forum) exists for the purpose of making profit. Software has, for many years, been one of the profit making products that X10 sold.

In the spirt of the purpose and reason for this [service providing] forum... we should all share in an interest in helping X10 find/create/develop a profit producing product. And NEVER promote a means of eliminating the usefulness of an X10 product line/item.

I hope this all works out.... for the benefit of everyone.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 17, 2018, 10:22:22 AM
The bottom line here is that there's a working X10 controller based Raspberry Pi solution available to try now.

Fantastic! Do you have a link? I'd like to try that myself.

But like with Tuicemen's HomeGenie route..... I am not interested in a thread that "teaches" Raspbian, Linux, or app creation. 

And to be open and honest.... not only am I only interested in a download-and-go product.... I'd like to see it eventually be managed by X10. With X10 specific hardware and call-in tech service.

NOT that I have anything against the forum code writers in any way. I just don't see any evidence of any product line surviving under user control. X10 NEEDS a hub. I believe the ideas here of a Pi based X10 hub has already been proven to work (via Homeseer). But I don't know of any business who has learned to exist without a profit. X10 needs this hub as much as it's customers.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 17, 2018, 11:11:49 AM
I also believe most users thinking about a PI X0 HUB aren't interested in learning a new OS, or to code.
A simple cut and paste cloud installer link is I believe what most none techie users want thus the first post of the HomeGenie tutorial thread. http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=30427.msg174845#msg174845

 I also don't wish to read through a thread of 10 or more pages of posts  about the weather, what someone did in their yard, on their honey do list etc. to see the latest developments on the front of the OP, thus my reason of locking a how to thread.
Once the tutorial is done I may unlock it however for now questions about HG can be posted else where in the same section.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: brobin on October 17, 2018, 12:31:03 PM
I also believe most users thinking about a PI X0 HUB aren't interested in learning a new OS, or to code.
A simple cut and paste cloud installer link is I believe what most none techie users want thus the first post of the HomeGenie tutorial thread. http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=30427.msg174845#msg174845

 I also don't wish to read through a thread of 10 or more pages of posts  about the weather, what someone did in their yard, on their honey do list etc. to see the latest developments on the front of the OP, thus my reason of locking a how to thread.
Once the tutorial is done I may unlock it however for now questions about HG can be posted else where in the same section.

I agree with both points.  Most people want to buy a plug 'n play solution. Those of us here are an infinitesimal subset of the vast number of X10 users and are avid enthusiasts.  Most users just want to turn on some lights and don't really care what's under the hood. If Authinx wants a piece of the action then they need to pony up the cash to develop a product that satisfies user's needs.  They bought the brand and somehow didn't even get delivery of the AHP software before cutting the check!  Dumb - unless the issue was priced into the deal in which case they need to invest the savings to rebuild it or similar from scratch.

There are very few supported X10 controllers available in the market now.  The best of those is probably Universal Devices which I once used for an Insteon based system.  Still supports X10, as well as Insteon, Zwave and others, and has an active community and excellent support team.  A bit pricey but that development and support ain't cheap!

As for your choice to maintain a "noiseless" thread for the scripts and operational information - brilliant! A companion topic for discussion can be just as effective. 
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 17, 2018, 05:49:46 PM

...  Most people want to buy a plug 'n play solution. ……. Most users just want to turn on some lights and don't really care what's under the hood.

I agree completely. Not only... because most of X10's customers predate the "smart home concept" (that X10 created with the CM11A & CM15A). But (IMHO) most X10 users found X10 while looking for a solution to a problem. And those problems were often about lighting... or landscape irrigation.

But lighting control.... as big as that was years ago... isn't that big a deal in todays world of automation. Heck... todays LED lights don't use anymore electric than the old nightlights (7 watt) we used years ago. New Home Automation users want to interconnect programs and control things.... not just lights.
 
If Authinx wants a piece of the action then they need to pony up the cash to develop a product that satisfies user's needs. 

Again I agree. But the discussion about "who" the potential X10 customers are.... has been had. And few of the current forum users want the same things that current adopters of automation technologies demand. Authinx took the forums "free" advice of avoiding cloud technology (in a cloud based world)…. and the advice they got was worth every cent they paid for it.

Without a vision.... Authinx can't formulate a workable plan. X10 has to decide where they want to go. And... hasn't that been the VERY SAME problem/mistake made with the Pi Hub development as well. No vision... no plan. No metrics that allow you to decide where you're at in the process... or know how long it will take.

Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 17, 2018, 07:37:44 PM
Authinx took the forums "free" advice of avoiding cloud technology (in a cloud based world)…. and the advice they got was worth every cent they paid for it.
:o the WM100 is cloud based! So how did they take the fourm user base suggestion and avoid it?
Quote
Without a vision.... Authinx can't formulate a workable plan. X10 has to decide where they want to go. And... hasn't that been the VERY SAME problem/mistake made with the Pi Hub development as well. No vision... no plan. No metrics that allow you to decide where you're at in the process... or know how long it will take.

Again  :o Pi Hubs have been around for years even you have admitted to using one. what PI HUB development are you referencing?
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: dave w on October 17, 2018, 09:02:06 PM
They bought the brand and somehow didn't even get delivery of the AHP software before cutting the check!  Dumb -
Long story behind that. The short story is: the foreign owner of X10 WTI basically, without any notice, pulled the plug and told everyone at the Seattle HQ they were "no longer getting paid as of today" and the same message went to the landlord. I am surprised there was anything concrete for Authinx to buy.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Brian H on October 18, 2018, 06:09:49 AM
I experienced a similar thing.

The morning of the eventful day. The forums where active and I was answering inquiries.
Later in the day. Forums and X10 sales sites just gone and parked on a web address holding site. No WARNING at all.
X10 Wireless Technologies just pulled the plug and all the employees where out of a job.

I understand that Authinx had only a short time span to try and move the servers. Damage occurred and servers obsolete old parts where not a good option to totally fix them. AHP was scattered all over the place in different servers and there was no real order of how each programmers part of AHP integrated with other AHP programmers parts.

Now that many automation users are told by the supposed experts. To avoid X10 completely. I am not too sure what the fate of X10 is. I don't see it being pushed except by users now using X10.

Although I have moved on to Insteon. My older hardware modules still accept an X10 Address and I have some X10 modules in use . So X10 is still part of my setup. Just not my primary protocol.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 18, 2018, 10:40:56 AM
:o the WM100 is cloud based! So how did they take the fourm user base suggestion and avoid it?

No. The Internet is cloud based. The WM100 does everything it can to avoid the "scary" cloud. And it's SAD! The WM100 could have been introduced with an ability to use IFTTT and/or the Echo/google devices..... and X10 would be in a MUCH better situation today.

Again  :o Pi Hubs have been around for years even you have admitted to using one. what PI HUB development are you referencing?

Oh come on. If you don't understand a vision, flow charts, metrics…. that's OK with me.... but I think you DO.

I am sorry my contributions to your Pi hub experiment were not appreciated. I willingly loaded and reloaded my Pi memory card 3 times. I like your idea.... and was fully invested in it's success. Posts like mine.... and others (yourself included)... are found throughout these forums.... including many successful and popular threads. I think shutting [locking] your thread down was a mistake. But it wasn't MY mistake! I never once suggested you kill your idea.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 18, 2018, 11:13:16 AM
…... I am not too sure what the fate of X10 is. I don't see it being pushed except by users now using X10.

Although I have moved on to Insteon. My older hardware modules...……... So X10 is still part of my setup. Just not my primary protocol.

It breaks my heart to read your posts about moving on Brian H. I've always admired the detailed accuracy of your posts.... and on occasion waited for your posts (in difficult trouble shooting threads)…. to read your insights.

I also having been trying and using other flavors/brands of automation products.... telling myself I am experimenting with integration. My X10 equipment/devices/set-up work(s) flawlessly... and I think I actually have an emotional attachment to X10. So... my emotions may effect the clarity of my thoughts here.... but I think X10 has a slight advantage with a NON-WiFi based protocol. Since even refrigerators, dishwashers, and toasters use WiFi now-a-days.... a non-standard protocol does have free space.

I recently disassembled and rebuilt or "reimagined" my entire automation setup. I decided too much advancement had taken place in the last couple years.... to keep trying to build-on to my old setup. Admittedly.... it's a vision thing. Every manager knows... there comes a time in every products life.... that you have to scrap everthing and start anew.

What dissapoints me most..... is seeing this forum so dead-set in keeping Home Automation remote controlled lighting and timed irragation. I think the old X10 PLC protocol can survive modern technology. But IMHO the old ideas about what automation is.... will kill X10. And..... I swear to God... I also hope I am wrong.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 18, 2018, 11:26:51 AM
With all this said..... I still believe that an X10 Pi-based Hub.... could be the savior and future of X10. AND... I can see no reason what-so-ever why this can't be a user developed product. Even if a X10 Pi Hub is eventually sold/distributed/marketed by X10...…. due to the to the efforts of a limited few here at this forum... everyone would benefit.

But every successful product begins with a vison of the future.... and NOT the fear of it. 

Todays technology is in the cloud. Period. The cloud needs to be exploited.. not avoided. We need to think far ahead of remote controlled lighting. It's time to look at what CAN be done... not what we used to do in the past.   
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: bkenobi on October 18, 2018, 11:37:53 AM
The internet has been around for a long time (since Al Gore created it).  The cloud is just a way of marketing the internet and make it sound hip and new (granted the term has been used for years, so that's kind of a fail).  Again, no one is saying that having a network solution to control things is bad.  The opposite is true which is why people are interested in RPi and similar solutions since those devices can act as an HA controller with an internet connection (cloud if you prefer).  The cloud is not a problem.  The problem is that when the ONLY way to access your device is through a server that you have no control over, you are placing a bet that that server will last longer than your interest in using their device (not your's since it only functions because they choose to allow it to function).  If the device has local control (be it a button on the device or an interface through WiFi, or whatever else), the device functions regardless of the fate of that server.

Do people here think that X10 was making all their money on software?  I don't know the answer so that's a legitimate question.  When I started, I bought a large amount of modules and X10 gave me AHP and all the add-ons for free.  Maybe someone out there bought the software on it's own, but it was my impression that the software was there to get people to buy more modules.  Since X10 has abandoned AHP (well, it was destroyed when they bought the company).  As such, if there is a better software package that makes people want more modules, X10 should be ok with it being promoted here.  I haven't seen a post by anyone who works at X10 in years, so we are just assuming unless they were to chime in.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: brobin on October 18, 2018, 12:10:01 PM
Well said bkenobi.  In the mid-90's I bought a ReplayTV (and more of them over the years) which got it's "cloud based" program guide via dial up and, as time went on, broadband.  I had "Lifetime Subscriptions" and continued using them till 2013 when I switched to Tivo. The company was bought and sold a few times and there were a couple of times when users were informed that the "Lifetime" was over and the servers would be shuttered.  The owner relented once or twice but finally shut them down.  An enthusiastic and talented user group was able to create their own server to continue to provide program data for a nominal fee to cover the cost of the underlying data source.  The risk associated with cloud based services is nothing new.  Cloud based services are terrific and provide lots of benefits but the risks need to be recognized and minimized. 
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 18, 2018, 12:43:59 PM

No. The Internet is cloud based. The WM100 does everything it can to avoid the "scary" cloud. And it's SAD! The WM100 could have been introduced with an ability to use IFTTT and/or the Echo/google devices..... and X10 would be in a MUCH better situation today.
Your right the cloud is the internet not something new If you think the WM100 doesn't use the internet unplug your router from the internet and then Unplug and reconnect your Wm100 then try to connect to it to turn something on or off or even wait to see if one of your timers fires on time. In fact with out the internet after your power comes back on your WM100 is a door stop. True the WM100 doesn't intergrade with other internet based things(IFTT, Google, Alexa) But some of these are planned (or so I've been told).

Quote
I am sorry my contributions to your Pi hub experiment were not appreciated. I willingly loaded and reloaded my Pi memory card 3 times. I like your idea.... and was fully invested in it's success. .
I never had a PI Hub thread that I locked either here or on my own forum. These were how to install and setup software threads, which I do appreciate your input on. They were never intended to be for a PI Hub experiment thought they could be. If you wish to start a thread on creating a PI Hub by all means do so.
The community I believe expects Community Organizers  to organize. This thread was originally started by petera to see if there was any interest at all in creating some sort of PI Hub (I believe).
This may or may not include software I've posted tutorials on but some direction needs to be inplace.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 18, 2018, 12:48:58 PM
...…. The cloud is just a way of marketing the internet and make it sound hip and new ……

Wow. I don't think you could be anymore wrong. Maybe.... just too many trees blocking your view of the forest.

….The cloud is not a problem.  The problem is that when the ONLY way to access your device is through a server that you have no control over, you are placing a bet that that server will last longer than your interest in using their device …….  If the device has local control (be it a button on the device or an interface through WiFi, or whatever else), the device functions regardless of the fate of that server.

There are some users.... who have little or NO grid capabilities. They require "special" solutions. But for the vast majority of Home Automation users access to servers are NOT a problem.

Control issues?!?!? According to my son (who works for the foremost electric power provider)… eletric power is also cloud driven technology now-a-days. So... there is no way to effectively avoid the cloud (even with conventional old fashion switch-flipping). Control... or the desire for control... is after all, a fear based [spiritual] issue. In todays spiritually deprived world... I am not surprised to see that be an issue with any situation. Fortunately... at my age... I am not so much troubled with fear of future events. Although.... I am no less human than anyone else. 

Well said bkenobi.  In the mid-90's I bought a ReplayTV...….
…..The risk associated with cloud based services is nothing new.  Cloud based services are terrific and provide lots of benefits but the risks need to be recognized and minimized.

Yes. And after little more than a 100 years... Sear's filed for bankruptcy just the other day. It would be a shame.... if you are just now realizing that all products, brands, companies, PEOPLE... are only temporary. Most jobs people work today..... will no longer exist... when my granddaughter is my age. Our (great) used-to-could stories won't change/fix/alter.... anything.

Everything changes. And cutting edge technology changes VERY fast. I don't expect my Amazon 2nd gen devices to still function when the 5th or 6th gen is released. These are NOT risks. This is the natural evolution of technology. It can NOT be managed or controlled. This is something normally dealt with spiritually. Meaning.... it can only be accepted for what it is.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 18, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
…. …….. This thread was originally started by petera to see if there was any interest at all in creating some sort of PI Hub (I believe).


As I've posted (and voted) earlier.... YES I whole heartedly support an X10 Pi Hub. AND... I'd think it would be best if integrated with as much, and many protocols as it can be. I think many of us have already bought Pi device(s) in this pursuit.... and would continue to invest both time and money for such an attempt.

But.... an X10 Pi Hub.... and all new products need a vision (or at least a well defined mission (http://www.deaconlloyd.com/product-planning-consulting.html)). This ain't stamp collecting! If operated like a hobby (see WM-100)…. the chances of success are limited.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 18, 2018, 01:22:05 PM
YES I whole heartedly support an X10 Pi Hub.
then we need a thread for such! ;) ;) ;)
Quote
AND... I'd think it would be best if integrated with as much, and many protocols as it can be. I think many of us have already bought Pi device(s) in this pursuit.... and would continue to invest both time and money for such an attempt.
I agree but then it is a universal HUB which is not a problem. other then the software becomes bloated with all the options as users want Plug and Play not install this then install that and if that doesn't work uninstall and try again.
Quote
But.... an X10 Pi Hub.... and all new products need a vision (or at least a well defined mission). This ain't stamp collecting! If operated like a hobby (see WM-100)…. the chances of success are limited.
So get us started! The hardware is available or as others have shown can be created as is the software for most stuff.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 18, 2018, 01:51:59 PM
So get us started!

Always.... start at the beginning.

I don't think X10 will profit from the.... what is it... about 50 (?) regular X10 old-timers who use this forum. Let's not assume we know the new Home Automation adopters... OR what it is they want from Home Automation. Let us all... peruse other Home Automation forums (many of us already do). See what popular Hub threads are posting about. What does todays new users want/need. What BESIDES ECHO + GOOGLE connectivity.... would attract new users (pronounced: customers with money) to a new X10 Hub/device. Lets collect (post) some links of things new users want (https://community.smartthings.com/c/projects-stories). Lets build a vision/mission.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 18, 2018, 02:40:11 PM
I meant in a new thread! And keep it on topic.

Posting links to other hub forums threads for request or adds only shows a HUB of any sort needs to be expandable.
A Pi running Linux allows that now.
There are several Linux programs that supply support for all that and if the support isn't there an end user can create it usualy if they have the skill set. GitHub is full of code to intergrate different hardware devices.


Authinx's thoughts on developement of a x10 Hub is for the average user not a power user. Thus the WM100 which very few of us here on this forum are happy with. ::) :'
Even Authinx is frustrated with the WM factory and developer, to the point of not wanting to develop any more new modules :(

Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 18, 2018, 09:04:52 PM
… Posting links to other hub forums threads for request or adds only shows a HUB of any sort needs to be expandable.
A Pi running Linux allows that now....

Other flavors/brands of home automation products are looking for product integration... like cameras, alarm systems, locks... etc. Much like the X10 forums of the old days when AHP had servers.

Authinx's thoughts on development of a x10 Hub is for the average user not a power user. …….

As usual (and as a coder writer you know)…. it's never so much about the hardware. It's the software that makes it all work. I am still a big fan of those little Pi's... but checking around reading about where all the other cloud based systems are headed...….. Well it just reminded me of how correct Brian H is. It's time to move on. I want some of the [modern] "services" as part of my setup..... that may never be a part of any X10 setup.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 19, 2018, 09:18:33 AM
Basically what is required here is a "dumb" X10 controller transceiver that will do as you ask of it without any signal degradation. All the logic will be carried out at software level via the combination of software and the SBC (Raspberry Pi) in this instance.

Now that we have determined the following, the software/Raspberry Pi side of the equation is solved and Authinx are unlikely to pursue any further serious development, we make do with what controllers are available to us and/or go down the DIY route.

We are lucky enough to have people like Jeff Volp on board here with real technical hardware experience who can guide us on the path. I suppose you could say he is DIY (no offence Jeff Volp) but he has filled in the gaps left by X10 manufacturers and in fact has superceeded them in many cases.

I wonder if Jeff Volp sees merit in what is being proposed here and how he might view his concepts/products being teamed up with  the Raspberry Pi/X10/ home automation proposal here.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 19, 2018, 10:54:03 AM
I'm not sure if a Pi Zero W would fit inside one of Jeff's modules but they will work with a Pi.
Virtually all Linux x10 Software can use the Heyu driver which I believe works with it.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: HA Dave on October 26, 2018, 12:00:48 AM
I ordered an Echo Plus. The Plus has a built-in Zigbee hub. That.... along with my Wink Hub, the MyQ Hub, a Broadlink [IR] RM pro Hub, and the Homeseer Hometroller (the small one) with the X10 plug-in [software DL] and a connected CM15A…. gives me voice and integrated control of just about all popular protocols.

I'll also be installing a new WiFi (phone APP) based Security alarm.... that will also work with Amazon or Google based AI voice control.

I originally installed my X10 to remotely control my Home Theater lighting. I didn't like having to turn on the theater... get up and turn off the lights... and then set back down. PLUS... I knew remote lighting control would add a "Wow Factor" (this was 2003). Using a Harmony/Logitech remote and an X10 IR543 (IR to X10 PLC)…. the theater has always worked flawlessly. So... at least for now... the theater (and maybe a couple other lights) will remain X10 lighting controlled.

And.... even though the theater works fine even without a CM15A or the Homeseer Hub... I will retain both. And... I will remain interested in a Raspberry PI freeware Hub as well.   
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: bkenobi on October 26, 2018, 11:00:47 AM
For those interested in the RPi and HA software options, it looks like HomeSeer offers the HomeTroller software as a stand-alone (without buying their controller box).  Since the box is a RPi in a branded enclosure, you should be able to use any RPi that is compatible with their version of the OS.

https://shop.homeseer.com/products/homeseer-hs3-pi-3-home-automation-software-for-the-raspberry-pi-3[/img]](https://shop.homeseer.com/products/homeseer-hs3-pi-3-home-automation-software-for-the-raspberry-pi-3) (http://[img)

I'm not advocating this option as I've never used it, but a lot of people do seem to like it from reading posts around the internet.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: Tuicemen on October 26, 2018, 12:54:56 PM
The Homeseer Image seems to be for the 3b and will not work in my zero W or 3b+.

I'm also looking at creating a image specific for the low cost Pi Zero W which will be free.
Although it will be intended and geared for X10 users, it will allow other protocols.
See: http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=30555.0
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 26, 2018, 01:22:46 PM
For those interested in the RPi and HA software options, it looks like HomeSeer offers the HomeTroller software as a stand-alone (without buying their controller box).  Since the box is a RPi in a branded enclosure, you should be able to use any RPi that is compatible with their version of the OS.

https://shop.homeseer.com/products/homeseer-hs3-pi-3-home-automation-software-for-the-raspberry-pi-3[/img]](https://shop.homeseer.com/products/homeseer-hs3-pi-3-home-automation-software-for-the-raspberry-pi-3) (http://[img)

I'm not advocating this option as I've never used it, but a lot of people do seem to like it from reading posts around the internet.

I'd agree with you but for a couple of reasons. Firstly it's last on the list to get an update software wise. You're restricted to what version of software the supplier decides to issue and there's very little scope to step outside "the box". ie restrictions on how many plugins you can install.

Typically, a classic problem which dogs owners of this unit is one you've experienced before with Homegenie. It's the version of Mono included with the box. Just one recent post of many which stops the user from availing of email notification. Sorry to post the link but this is an example of the above with no resolution from the supplier https://forums.homeseer.com/forum/homeseer-products-services/system-software-controllers/hometroller-zee/1248580-having-trouble-getting-e-mail-to-work

In fairness for what you get for your money here there are cheaper more capable alternatives out there in the open source world that with a bit of work could have you up and running with X10 control
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: petera on October 26, 2018, 01:55:06 PM
The Homeseer Image seems to be for the 3b and will not work in my zero W or 3b+.

I'm also looking at creating a image specific for the low cost Pi Zero W which will be free.
Although it will be intended and geared for X10 users, it will allow other protocols.
See: http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=30555.0

As I mentioned above I doubt they have a working version of this software for the Raspbery Pi 3+ yet. It's lagging behind their flagship product Homeseer 3 Standard/Pro. You might want to try it on a Pi2 or Pi2+ to test drive it.

Don't forget the supplier does not officially support X10 on their product anymore.
Title: Re: X10 on the Raspberry Pi- Is it of interest to you
Post by: bkenobi on October 26, 2018, 05:13:37 PM
My email notifications stopped working months ago again.  I'm sure it's due to mono not supporting the current certificates since that's what caused the problem last time.  Since Gene is apparently updating HG to use the current mono, I should probably get things updated so I can have my notifications back.