X10 Community Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tuicemen on October 18, 2018, 03:52:57 PM

Title: X10 user unite!
Post by: Tuicemen on October 18, 2018, 03:52:57 PM
My inquiries to Authinx always get the "we can't develop for the power user. there just isn't the demand to make any money"
My original thought was anyone that has X10 still in operation was an average user and wanting more from it didn't make you a power user but I guess I'm wrong.
I'm being grouped as a X10 Power user.

I asked about a Cm15 Upgrade since most of the X10 line has got a update with more powerful PLC quiet, relays..... but the CM15 has not seen anything in line of an improvement.
True this relies on software to get the most out of it and the AHP software is not going anywhere but an Updated CM15 may get someone interested in reverse enginering it.

Thankfully there are other softwares to utilize this module but it needs upgrading supplying more power for todays modern world. I don't believe anything like WI-FI needs to be added though that would be nice.

As long as Authinx sees their customer base as not including Power Users, X10 is dead.

Tell Authinx you demand more and You are a power user!

Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: dhouston on October 18, 2018, 04:48:08 PM
...an Updated CM15 may get someone interested in reverse enginering it.
The current design has converted most of the logic (i.e. MCU) and RF components to SMD which makes reverse engineering problematic. The MCU requires an expensive (if even still available) package for programming it. I had designed a replacement for the older thru-hole MCU but shelved it when they went SMD. In addition, I think more PLC oomph is needed.

Methinks the best approach is an ESP8266 module (e.g. WeMos D1 Mini) with add-ons (i.e. shields) for RTC, RF RX/TX, etc. that can interface with the serial port of a CM11A or XTB-232 (best). It can act as a web-server, allowing any browser to interact with it, eliminating the need for Apps, etc.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: Tuicemen on October 18, 2018, 05:03:00 PM
The CM11 is discontinued so it would have to be a modified XTB-232 or something simular.
Besides I'd want something with PLC punch!
The problem is getting it produced, average users aren't looking for a DIY project, and very few power users are willing to do it either. Authinx may produce it, if we could show them there are more power users then they currently think.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: dhouston on October 18, 2018, 05:36:33 PM
The CM11 is discontinued...
It's still available here...
https://thex10shop.com/products/x10-genuine-cm11a-activehome-serial-computer-interface-pre-cm15a (https://thex10shop.com/products/x10-genuine-cm11a-activehome-serial-computer-interface-pre-cm15a)

I don't recall how many he told me he has but, IIRC, it was in the hundreds. 
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: Tuicemen on October 18, 2018, 06:00:47 PM
Yes, I realize you can still find them but this is old tech! You might find half a dozen users willing to buy one then do the DIY project to upgrade it and still have a low powered PLC signal but that's probably a high figure.

I know the factory Authinx uses no loger has the tooling for that module. So if a factory has to retool for a module it might as well be something new that has PLC Punch.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: JeffVolp on October 18, 2018, 06:11:45 PM
We know the WM100 motherboard has "punch", but it is presently limited to just a small subset of the X10 command set.  If we could obtain the schematic, we could modify the motherboard to support the full X10 command set.  Then a modified daughter board that includes a real time clock should provided all that is needed for a high-end controller.

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: Tuicemen on October 18, 2018, 06:20:57 PM
We know the WM100 motherboard has "punch", but it is presently limited to just a small subset of the X10 command set.  If we could obtain the schematic, we could modify the motherboard to support the full X10 command set.  Then a modified daughter board that includes a real time clock should provided all that is needed for a high-end controller.

Jeff
Exactly as can the factory if they'd get off their butts!
But then the WM100 would be obsolete who'd buy a module that only controls 3 house codes when you could have one that does all 16? Oh wait I know, it's anyone other then a power user. rofl
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: bkenobi on October 19, 2018, 12:22:59 AM
IMO, the prospect of a WiFi adapter 4 years ago was very interesting.  In the mean time, tech advanced and that sole use became less interesting to the point where I wouldn't pay much for it.  If the WM100 had been a CM15A + network interface, I'd expect to pay around $100 (the same as the CM15A cost me several years ago when it was much less dated).  The fact that a simple WiFi adapter with basically no added capability costs $100 is a no-go for me when other options are available (read, custom RPi options).

That said, if X10 were to produce a new controller that was essentially a network enabled CM15A with a better RF range and open enough to use any software I wanted...WOW, that would be exciting.  This is basically the same thing that dhouston has been suggesting for a couple years now though, so it's not even a new concept.  He had a design that would have incorporated an ESP into a CM15A back then but not enough interest for whatever reason.

Then again, the best product pair available for X10 users is discontinued due to apparent lack of interest (XTB-IIR + XTBM).  With these 2 products, Jeff made X10 easy to use for anyone no matter how bad your initial signal might be.

If these 2 people offered great concepts and products with no significant traction, I'm not sure what Authentix can do...  Sounds pessimistic, but that's what I see.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: brobin on October 19, 2018, 12:47:06 AM
Perhaps X10 shouldn't even be in the controller business and concentrate on building modules that not only incorporate X10 signals but other standards as well, such as an RF mesh network or WiFi to improve signal integrity. They don't have to cling to ONLY offering their 40 year old technology without enhancements. It's like an airline saying "we started out flying prop planes so we'll always fly prop planes."  That may be OK but if they don't add some jets to the fleet they can't compete.  Building modules has always been X10's strength - not writing software.  X10 must recognize that they are an automation company first and not remain stuck using only one type of technology.

While many have fallen by the wayside, there are still companies offering integrated controllers that include support for X10.  HAI Omni, Vera, HomeSeer, and Universal Devices ISY models come to mind.  Granted, they cost a bit more but they do a lot more, are well supported and users don't have to become involved with building and programming devices. A new, more powerful TW523 would be a valuable addition to provide greater reliability to controller suppliers. Most of the other module suppliers don't offer sophisticated controllers either, preferring to only support their own technology in a basic way to keep customer service costs low. 

 The most successful controllers will be the ones that can integrate with a vast number of devices & protocols.  For example, in addition to my Stargate that controls X10, I have more bridges than Manhattan to access other devices & systems from Lutron, Honeywell, Kohler, Liftmaster, Aqualink, Hunter-Douglas, B-Hyve, Caddyx, and Cielo as well as my Pi Hub plus various entertainment devices for music & video.  Each one of those bridges has their own app or software and, for the most part, none of them can talk to the others. All those apps take a full homescreen page on my phone. Build a controller that interacts with all of these and then we'll have a hot product! Maybe the HA industry needs to develop an interoperability protocol to enable their devices to interact.

Ironically, there IS one product that can talk to most of these already and that's Amazon's Alexa. Today it's not much more than voice activated remote control but there's no reason they couldn't offer a cloud based HA controller to integrate everything. They could even d/l the basic schedule to an Echo device to provide local control as a backup.  Given that Alexa is making its way onto our phones and into our cars it could make decisions based on which family member is where along with weather and traffic data and what you had for dinner last night. 
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: JeffVolp on October 19, 2018, 01:51:11 AM
Then again, the best product pair available for X10 users is discontinued due to apparent lack of interest (XTB-IIR + XTBM).  With these 2 products, Jeff made X10 easy to use for anyone no matter how bad your initial signal might be.

They are not discontinued yet, but will be as the current stock of several hundred PCBs is used up.  Most products should remain available well into 2019.  And they are not being discontinued due to lack of interest.  After assembling over 4000 units by myself, I'm just getting tired of soldering.  If someone wants to step up and take over production, I'd be happy to support it.

Jeff
 
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: dhouston on October 19, 2018, 06:10:43 AM
We know the WM100 motherboard has "punch", but it is presently limited to just a small subset of the X10 command set.  If we could obtain the schematic, we could modify the motherboard to support the full X10 command set.  Then a modified daughter board that includes a real time clock should provided all that is needed for a high-end controller.
It might be simpler to look at adding a daughterboard to the revised PAT03.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: JeffVolp on October 19, 2018, 08:28:02 AM
It might be simpler to look at adding a daughterboard to the revised PAT03.

That's probably where the factory started with the WM100.  The X10 transceiver only supports the subset of X10 codes sent by the PalmPad.  Some of us need extended codes, so the PAT03 motherboard would have to be revised too.

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: Tuicemen on October 19, 2018, 10:22:00 AM
It might be simpler to look at adding a daughterboard to the revised PAT03.

That's probably where the factory started with the WM100.  The X10 transceiver only supports the subset of X10 codes sent by the PalmPad.  Some of us need extended codes, so the PAT03 motherboard would have to be revised too.

Jeff
That is basically what the factory started with for the WM100.
Interestingly I received some returned WM100s to play with as I had requested one to see if I could revive my city bricked unit.
 I managed to get one returned unit working at my off grid place and entered in a few modules from my off grid place during testing then pulled the daughter board.

I pulled my bricked daughter board and replaced it with the one setup from my off grid place and fired up the WM100.This WM100 had never been to my off grid place.
It fired right up and connected to my wi-fi without any input from me.
I opened my devices and my off grid setup was there so the daughter board holds the setup and configuration.
There is no reference to my city place setup.
Daughter boards are swappable as all daughter boards from the defective units work.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: bkenobi on October 19, 2018, 11:34:08 AM
They are not discontinued yet, but will be as the current stock of several hundred PCBs is used up.  Most products should remain available well into 2019.  And they are not being discontinued due to lack of interest.  After assembling over 4000 units by myself, I'm just getting tired of soldering.  If someone wants to step up and take over production, I'd be happy to support it.

Jeff
 

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest not available.  What I meant was that you tried to get production continued through another company (Authentix etc) and they weren't interested so you are not continuing to produce new components.  Yes, I am aware that you are still selling your excellent products until the supply is depleted.  Thanks for pointing that out.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: dhouston on October 19, 2018, 11:53:39 AM
The X10 transceiver only supports the subset of X10 codes sent by the PalmPad.  Some of us need extended codes, so the PAT03 motherboard would have to be revised too.
Then I think a revised XTB-232 is still the best bet.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: JeffVolp on October 19, 2018, 12:34:26 PM
Then I think a revised XTB-232 is still the best bet.

Obviously, I don't disagree.  But the problem is who will take over production after the prototypes are built...

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: dhouston on October 19, 2018, 02:08:35 PM
But the problem is who will take over production after the prototypes are built...

I fear my age and health preclude my hands-on involvement beyond proof-of-concept on a breadboard.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: bitman on November 08, 2018, 04:42:16 PM
My x10 setup today goes from Alexa -> HA Bridge -> x10 Commander ->  CM15A -> x10 device.

So we can say Alexa, turn on the stuff and she clicks on a warm amp in the corner then the faux fireplace.
Alexa turn everything off does so on our way to bed.

etc..

The remotes are in the drawers around the house, somewhere.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: dave w on November 08, 2018, 05:45:43 PM
Alexa turn everything off does so on our way to bed.
Have you tried the Alexa "Routines"? We say "Alexa Good Night" and she returns something like "Good night, sleep tight" (it varies) then triggers our "go to sleep" event to turn out the lights, etc.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: petera on November 08, 2018, 06:15:03 PM
Alexa turn everything off does so on our way to bed.
Have you tried the Alexa "Routines"? We say "Alexa Good Night" and she returns something like "Good night, sleep tight" (it varies) then triggers our "go to sleep" event to turn out the lights, etc.

Or does a few blue circle laps of the puck and does nothing  :) What then....a few laps of the house in the dark trying to remember where you mounted those damn rocker switches  rofl
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: dave w on November 08, 2018, 08:22:58 PM
Yep, you pretty much nailed it.  rofl
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: HA Dave on November 12, 2018, 10:12:18 AM
Have you tried the Alexa "Routines"? We say "Alexa Good Night" and she returns something like "Good night, sleep tight" (it varies) then triggers our "go to sleep" event to turn out the lights, etc.

I say "Alexa bedtime" and then:
(Using the Broadlink IR device). Alexa turns off both the TV and the Cable Box on the upstairs TV.
(Using the Homeseer little Hometroller) sends an X10 Command, which in turn triggers a macro on a (2nd) CM15A... causing a small light to light for 3 minutes.
(Using the Wink Hub) turns Off the lamp beside my easy-chair.
Also in the routines..... any light on in the kitchen turns off (they require no hub).

This brings a nice end to my normal evening routine..... and provides me with a little light for long enough to get to bed. There would be different and simpler ways to do this. But part of this (at least originally) was an experiment in integration of these various flavors of automation. This... experiment.. has been an enormous success.

Am I a "power user"? Maybe... yeah... I'd guess that term might fit.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: JeffVolp on November 12, 2018, 10:30:25 AM
I say "Alexa bedtime" and then:
(Using the Broadlink IR device). Alexa turns off both the TV and the Cable Box on the upstairs TV.
(Using the Homeseer little Hometroller) sends an X10 Command, which in turn triggers a macro on a (2nd) CM15A... causing a small light to light for 3 minutes.
(Using the Wink Hub) turns Off the lamp beside my easy-chair.
Also in the routines..... any light on in the kitchen turns off (they require no hub).

I do something similar by tapping 4 OFF on a convenient PalmPad.  The Ocelot handles the rest.  No cloud or hub is involved.  Of course, it doesn't tell me to have a good night sleep, but I can do without that. ;D

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: HA Dave on November 12, 2018, 10:53:19 AM
I do something similar by tapping 4 OFF on a convenient PalmPad.  The Ocelot handles the rest.  No cloud or hub is involved.  Of course, it doesn't tell me to have a good night sleep, but I can do without that. ;D

There is NO wrong way to do this stuff! And there are minor advantages to not being dependent on larger infrastructures. Heck.... I am old enough to remember when most people kept a wind-up alarm clock (even if they normally depended on a radio alarm). Because... you know... power failures. I myself kept a "travel alarm" in the nightstand drawer at one time.

And because I run a standalone CM15A... I could put a Palmpad in my end stand drawer (I still have a Palmpad "compartment" I installed in the drawer). But I don't feel the need.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: petera on November 12, 2018, 12:58:28 PM
I say "Alexa bedtime" and then:
(Using the Broadlink IR device). Alexa turns off both the TV and the Cable Box on the upstairs TV.
(Using the Homeseer little Hometroller) sends an X10 Command, which in turn triggers a macro on a (2nd) CM15A... causing a small light to light for 3 minutes.
(Using the Wink Hub) turns Off the lamp beside my easy-chair.
Also in the routines..... any light on in the kitchen turns off (they require no hub).

I do something similar by tapping 4 OFF on a convenient PalmPad.  The Ocelot handles the rest.  No cloud or hub is involved.  Of course, it doesn't tell me to have a good night sleep, but I can do without that. ;D

Jeff

Same here. Created a virtual on/off switch device which when activated triggers numerous x10 events. Say one for evening mode, lights on downstairs with dim and heating on and one for bedtime, lights off downstairs, lights on upstairs and heating off.

Guess what!!!! All achieved with no cloud except for the cumulus humilus I stare at in the loft on the way to sleep.

Btw wtf is a power user. Is that a user of power. If that's the case we're all power users   >!
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: dhouston on November 12, 2018, 01:07:39 PM
Btw wtf is a power user. Is that a user of power. If that's the case we're all power users   >!
Does that include Tuicemen at his off-grid country estate?
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: Tuicemen on November 12, 2018, 02:00:44 PM

Btw wtf is a power user
I put the exact question to Authinix as they always throw that back saying the power user market is to small to cater to. ::) :'
Does that include Tuicemen at his off-grid country estate?

I still use power there, just my own created supply rofl
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: JeffVolp on November 12, 2018, 02:14:41 PM
I put the exact question to Authinix as they always throw that back saying the power user market is to small to cater to. ::) :'

I imagine most of the iPhone generation is happy with the WM100 just turning their phone into a PalmPad.

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: Tuicemen on November 12, 2018, 02:22:04 PM
I put the exact question to Authinix as they always throw that back saying the power user market is to small to cater to. ::) :'

I imagine most of the iPhone generation is happy with the WM100 just turning their phone into a PalmPad.

Jeff
I suspect your right but a Palm pad can control all 256 devices with a simple turn of a code wheel so it isn't limited to 32 devices.
I suspect the smart phone user is going to eventually turn into a "X10 power user" or want to. Many now want more then the apps are supplying.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: HA Dave on November 12, 2018, 02:31:35 PM
Btw wtf is a power user

I put the exact question to Authinix as they always throw that back saying the power user market is to small to cater to.

Back before I retired.... on the network at work... we had "Power Users". A genuine network user term. Usually they were people that knew their way around computers and the network (often times engineers). They often used a lot of bandwidth and always found reasons to request extra permissions and group memberships. They were helpful as they required little one-on-one attention.... and dangerous because of the destruction they could cause. They were given wide berth... and monitored

I'd bet.... it was the X10 power users that enticed X10 to create the more advanced X10 products... like the computer assisted CM11 and CM15A with an on-line automation benefit as well.

(Just like with video gaming)... the serious automation users wanted the expanded capabilities of on-line usage. This.... these power users... drove and helped to advance the technology exponentially. Although the tech is great... the speed in which it advanced may have stressed X10's ability to advance with it. Now even most of X10's longtime users can't wrap their heads around or accept cloud computing and AI automation (not that they should). AI may be where we stall at for a while. Or more likely... where we make a "generational paradigm shift". 

Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: HA Dave on November 12, 2018, 02:44:46 PM
I imagine most of the iPhone generation is happy with the WM100 just turning their phone into a PalmPad.

Jeff

I don't know about that. I'd heard that the typical iPhone user is middle aged woman. Which would explain my wife.... but not my son, or my 92 year old mother. I think the WM-100 is a great remote. But.... I don't want remote control. I want automation. And the best automation is the result of a collaborative effort of software, hardware, and online presence.... including AI.

I think the idea of controlling lights... like changing TV channels... using a (modern) clicker.... is a bit outdated. I think people want helpful suggestions from their automation now-a-days. What was imagined just a few years ago... is todays reality. I don't believe there is any age limits on reality. 
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: JeffVolp on November 12, 2018, 03:35:27 PM
But.... I don't want remote control. I want automation.

Spoken like a true POWER USER. ;)

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: HA Dave on November 12, 2018, 06:48:15 PM
Spoken like a true POWER USER. ;)

Jeff

Thank you.... I think. Home Automation is a hobby... and a bit of a passionate lifestyle for me. Sure I really do use and enjoy my automation (it isn't just to show-off). That period of time after the holidays.... and before grass mowing (and cycling) begins in the spring... is what I call Home Automation Season. But honestly I am always working on my setup. Researching, reading, watching associated YouTube videos... and planning my next venture.

I feel blessed to be able to take advantage of some of this... newest golden age of Home Automation. It's a great time to be alive!
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: JeffVolp on November 12, 2018, 08:02:05 PM
Sure I really do use and enjoy my automation (it isn't just to show-off).

(It was meant as a compliment.)  My wife is happy to just hit a button on a remote when she wants something to happen, but she lets me know if something doesn't come on when scheduled.  Of course, that almost never happens anymore after replacing most incandescent bulbs with CFL or LED.

I did set up Alexa to control X10, and it was pretty neat to demonstrate that capability to others.  But for ourselves just pushing the little white button is more convenient and faster.

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: HA Dave on November 12, 2018, 11:12:41 PM
.. My wife is happy to just hit a button on a remote when she wants something to happen.....
.....I did set up Alexa to control X10, and it was pretty neat to demonstrate that capability to others.  But for ourselves just pushing the little white button is more convenient and faster.

Jeff

My wife wasn't thrilled at making the transformation to voice command (or even home automation at first) either. But... I first began using [MS SAPI5 based] voice command with BVC more than a decade ago. So she's had plenty of time to adapt. WAF... used to be something we mentioned more often in these forums.

One of the great features of Amazon's Alexa is the internet phone calling. Anyone... trapped, injured, or just not motivated to get up can just yell out for Alexa to call [anyone in the address book]. And then speak to them through the Echo device. My 4 Echo devices.... and whole house [prime] music was a big sell.... but the extra safety perk of emergency calling... was a big deal too.

I myself... am a real change agent. I actively LOOK for means and ways to change and progress. I don't expect the "process" of changing to be easy or effortless. But I do expect change and growth to be worthwhile. And for the mostpart it is. Not every effort pays off... but many do. Home Automation has been a great change in my life that I truely enjoy and advocate for as well.
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: SkipWX10 on November 12, 2018, 11:17:33 PM
My wife thought I was a weirdo when I came into our relationship with X10 devices. I had been using them for 20 years and she thought I was nuts replacing switches, etc in our new shared apartment.

Didn't take her long to realize the joy of never coming home to a dark place and the ability to turn off the lights from her bedside at night.

Fast forward another 20+ years and she is the one that has the mini controller by her bedside to turn off the bedroom lights since she goes to bed first. And, she will be the one to say "hey, the den light didn't come on tonight!" etc

I dunno, maybe they're easier to train than we thought ;-)
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: brobin on November 13, 2018, 01:12:45 PM
In the mid-80's after dinner with my new girlfriend I invited her back to my place to have some wine in the hot tub.  :' I used my car phone (the size of a shoebox) to call my BSR TR-270 to turn it on and heat it up.  It must have impressed her since we've been married for 31 years!  She loves HA and even though she rolls her eyes at some of things I do, she'll be the first to complain when it doesn't work.
 Our 'goodnight' routine is triggered by setting the alarm either by button or Alexa.  The Stargate sees the 'armed stay' status and turns off the lights and adjusts the t-stats.  'Armed away' triggers a different macro that includes shutting off the whole house water valve after 1 hour (in case the washer or dishwasher is running when we leave).
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: dave w on November 13, 2018, 06:21:20 PM
She loves HA and even though she rolls her eyes at some of things I do, she'll be the first to complain when it doesn't work.
 
That pretty much describes my wife also. I remember back in the early '90s I was using an Enerlogic 1400 for automation.

https://books.google.com/books?id=eXtrmPzKrwcC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=Enerlogic+1400&source=bl&ots=QrO9ljPoWK&sig=0D-3Tu3i7Iq2s9V208_zV8l-Xmc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIjO79v9LeAhUDPq0KHcJrBrwQ6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=Enerlogic%201400&f=false

Many times a command would be missed, maybe because of intermittent noise, and I would hear about it "Why can't we use a light switch like normal people?". But the Enerlogic blew a chip during a hardware hack, and it took me a couple of weeks to get the replacement. After week one, the daily conversation included "When is the house going to be fixed."  :'
Title: Re: X10 user unite!
Post by: HA Dave on November 15, 2018, 11:55:28 PM
…………  Our 'goodnight' routine is triggered by setting the alarm either by button or Alexa. ..

I've Been thinking about this... since I read it the other day.

I've been working on integration... with various protocols, hubs, etc.. But always with the "triggering component' being automated or with Alexa used as the "trigger". But I really like the idea of having more than one path to the desired automated event.

So today... I setup a spare theater remote (a Harmony 650) to control all the audio/video functions of my home theater.... but left the lighting control to either an X10 Palmpad…. or Alexa.

Then I started thinking.... if I order me a 2nd Broadlink Pro I could I could voice control the Theater setup shutdown(s) using Alexa, the Broadlink, and routines.

Now.... I am wondering... could do some 1 button X10 macros to run the setups/shutdowns. I do own a VCR commander. Thank You brobin… I like the idea of alternate ways to accomplish HA tasks.