X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: LostDog88 on October 25, 2018, 12:00:15 AM
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How do y'all handle this situation?
I would like to automate even the bathroom switches.
Currently there is a single gang box with two switches. I cannot find a like replacement from X10. Is there any way to control a light and fan separately without changing out the box. Everything I can find is a rocker switch that requires a double gang box to keep two switches that are X10 compatible.
Any ideas?
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Assuming they still control X10, the Insteon Remote Control Dimmer KeypadLinc #2334 is your best bet along with an XPFM Inline Receiver Module. The keypad can directly control the lighting fixture with on/off/dim (or use the 2487 for on/off) and send X10 commands to 5 or 7 other devices depending on which keypad you choose. You can use one of the other buttons to toggle the fan by sending on/off commands to the XPFM which can be mounted in or above the fan housing. Then just wirenut hot to the fan wire in the existing box.
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Since you have posted about watching switch conditions as well, have a look at the X10 pro key pads https://www.x10.com/x10-pro/in-wall-keypads.html
Then depending on the number of switches you go with use inline modules https://www.x10.com/x10-pro/modules/xpfm.html
>!
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have a look at the X10 pro key pads https://www.x10.com/x10-pro/in-wall-keypads.html
Then depending on the number of switches you go with use inline modules https://www.x10.com/x10-pro/modules/xpfm.html
>!
I like the idea of two switches....but I am thinking (please, understand i can be very slow sometimes) that I would need to control modules. One for the lights and one for the fan?
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Assuming they still control X10, the Insteon Remote Control Dimmer KeypadLinc #2334 is your best bet along with an XPFM Inline Receiver Module. The keypad can directly control the lighting fixture with on/off/dim (or use the 2487 for on/off) and send X10 commands to 5 or 7 other devices depending on which keypad you choose. You can use one of the other buttons to toggle the fan by sending on/off commands to the XPFM which can be mounted in or above the fan housing. Then just wirenut hot to the fan wire in the existing box.
I like this idea the best except that it appears that there are 6 switches on the face of this. I am certain that the people in my wife's (believe me, i deal with this every day) will never figure out how to turn off a light or turn on a fan or there are a million ways they would screw this up and get lost in the bathroom. LOL.
Is there just a two switch option? I checked, but it seems then I would have to have controller modules in the boxes of the light and the fan. Will they fit in the box that is existing?
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If you use the 6 button keypad you can have the large top & bottom buttons work as ON and OFF for the main light and the other buttons for the fan and anything else you like. They offer an engraving option for the switch labels. They used to have clear caps too so you could make your own labels. The keypads contain one dimmer switch so noting else is needed in the single gang box. The inline module for the fan can be installed in the fan housing.
As for what to do with the extra buttons, here's an idea: Assuming the inline module for the fan is set to A2, One button on the keypad will be set to A2 for simple on/off. Use the other 3 buttons as timers for the fan, say, 10, 20 & 30 minutes. When you press the 10 minute button it could transmit A3 ON. When your controller sees A3 ON use it as a trigger to send A2 ON, delay 10 min and send A2 OFF. A4 and A5 would trigger the same response with different delay times. Now the extra buttons will make sense if labeled "FAN 10" etc.
Another option is to use the top large button to toggle the light and the bottom large button to toggle the fan and the other for as timer buttons.
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have a look at the X10 pro key pads https://www.x10.com/x10-pro/in-wall-keypads.html
Then depending on the number of switches you go with use inline modules https://www.x10.com/x10-pro/modules/xpfm.html
>!
I like the idea of two switches....but I am thinking (please, understand i can be very slow sometimes) that I would need to control modules. One for the lights and one for the fan?
Your correct as these keypads only send x10 PLC commands
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If you use the 6 button keypad you can have the large top & bottom buttons work as ON and OFF for the main light and the other buttons for the fan and anything else you like. They offer an engraving option for the switch labels. They used to have clear caps too so you could make your own labels. The keypads contain one dimmer switch so noting else is needed in the single gang box. The inline module for the fan can be installed in the fan housing.
As for what to do with the extra buttons, here's an idea: Assuming the inline module for the fan is set to A2, One button on the keypad will be set to A2 for simple on/off. Use the other 3 buttons as timers for the fan, say, 10, 20 & 30 minutes. When you press the 10 minute button it could transmit A3 ON. When your controller sees A3 ON use it as a trigger to send A2 ON, delay 10 min and send A2 OFF. A4 and A5 would trigger the same response with different delay times. Now the extra buttons will make sense if labeled "FAN 10" etc.
Another option is to use the top large button to toggle the light and the bottom large button to toggle the fan and the other for as timer buttons.
Can the 6-button keypad really be set up with the top large button and bottom large button independent of one another? As far as I know, the top button is always the ON button, and the bottom button is always the OFF button, for the connected load. You can't assign a separate X10 address to the bottom button.
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Good catch! - you're right, it's been a long time since I used one and I was thinking it had the same flexibility as the 8 button kp. B:(
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If you use the 6 button keypad you can have the large top & bottom buttons work as ON and OFF for the main light and the other buttons for the fan and anything else you like. They offer an engraving option for the switch labels. They used to have clear caps too so you could make your own labels. The keypads contain one dimmer switch so noting else is needed in the single gang box. The inline module for the fan can be installed in the fan housing.
I'm not seeing a 6-button keypad on X10's site. Smarthome has one, though. I'm not sure if it (still) supports X10 addresses or not, though.
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The Insteon Remote Control Dimmer 6 Button KeypadLinc #2334-232 is available at Smarthome.com or on Amazon. On your first Smarthome visit a pop-up will offer you a 20% discount code in exchange for your email address. Do it - you can always unsubscribe later.
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This thread really interests me...The 2334-232 seems like a solution to an issue I have. Can I replace a PLW01 with this and have local control over what the PLW01 controls (plus scheduled timers for same) and use the other 4 for my other, now module or WS467 controlled lighting? Some of the others are now using timed events but the main reason for this would be to control an outside floodlight my wife likes to turn on for taking the dog out at night. The WS467 for this floodlight is halfway across the house from the door we go out and I now use a stick-up switch as a remote for that light and it often doesn't retain it's programming or turn on/off the lighting.
Also, if this send PL signal and wireless and I have a PAT02 in the same room, any possibility of collisions causing issues?
Thanks for the education!
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Disclaimer: don't have the Insteon switch
You cannot use the 2334-232 for local control. It sends PLC signals that other modules will pick up. You CAN wire things up so they will work though. If you wire the Insteon switch in place of the switch (assuming you have all 3 wires into that switch box), you can run hot directly to the fixture that was controlled by the PLW01. Inside the box where that light is controlled, you can install some sort of fixture module (XPDF if you want dimmable).
The Insteon will send a signal and the XPDF will respond however this is not exactly local control.
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The 2334-232 DOES have local control for one unit code. It is a combination keypad and dimmer switch. You can also get it in an 8 button flavor or non-dimming version. Button #1 (top) on the 6 button keypad will turn On the load connected to it and button #6 (bottom) will turn it Off. Pressing those buttons not only controls the attached load but transmits the device and command (i.e. A1-ON) via PLC (not RF). Pressing any one of the other four buttons will toggle and transmit an ON or OFF to the programmed device. The 8 button version is the same except the attached load is controlled by button #1 as it is toggled on & off. In all cases the button lights up when ON - whether from being pressed or from receiving the PLC command.
I have one in a bathroom where I have recessed lighting, vanity bars, exhaust fan and accent lighting in the cove ceiling. The single gang switch box by the bathroom door controls the overhead lighting only. I replaced the switch with a 2334-232 (8 button version) and it controls the recessed lighting manually and by PLC. I put the Smarthome dimmer switches (that also transmit & receive their assigned codes) in the double gang box further in the bathroom that has the wiring for the vanities and accent lights. The keypad uses button 1 for the recessed light connected to it and buttons 2, 3 & 4 to transmit to the other two lights & fan so everything can be controlled when entering or leaving the bathroom. The accent light is also controlled by my Stargate which turns on the light and causes that keypad button to light.
Here's the owner's manual for the 6 & 8 button units: http://cache-m2.smarthome.com/manuals/2334-2xx.pdf
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So......Revisiting this issue as I got my Insteon switches today.
Got them installed and without a doubt I have control via buttons On-Off of the lights. But I cannot figure out how to program the scene buttons and the primary address.
The manuals say you need software or a remote that is capable of sending AON commands. I would think Home Genie can do this. But how?
Any help is so appreciated.
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The manual indicates you need to send the X10 address and then an On to the House Code. To add an X10 Primary Address.
Like an A2 AON sequence after doing the needed button pushes to add an X10 Primary Address to one of the buttons.
If you can call it an X10 module just put it into the X10 programming mode and send an On from HG to get it programmed.
Also you don't have to use a controller and software for programming an X10 Primary Address. I have programmed Insteon Primary Addresses into my modules with an X10 Remote and transceiver. Starting the add X10 Primary Address sequence and using the remote to send the wanted X10 address and an On.
Trying the added features like ramp rate, On Level, Scenes and others. Needing the House Code only commands shown in the web page link. May not work. X10 Scene Addresses where dropped years ago and official X10 support was also dropped recently. Though many modules still unofficially support X10 Primary Addresses. Not too sure how up to date the information on the web page for X10 support is. The manual from the Keypads sales site is 7/25/2013. Things are different now.
Smarthome discontinued their X10 Tabletop controller. It had preset buttons to send all the needed Address Only House Code sequences.
Since the Insteon line of modules also used the another X10 dim protocol. Preset Dim and Standard Dim. If you are sending the X10 Extended Dim. Your modules may not respond. They should if you send the Standard Dim used by all X10 modules.
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Also you don't have to use a controller and software for programming an X10 Primary Address. I have programmed Insteon Primary Addresses into my modules with an X10 Remote and transceiver. Starting the add X10 Primary Address sequence and using the remote to send the wanted X10 address and an On.
So I build a module in Home Genie. Make it a switch. Set it to C16. (this is the address I want the insteon switch to be) click on and use a remote to send C16 three times. After setting the insteon switch in program mode.
Is this correct?
off to try it..................................
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The manual for the module. On pages 13-14 give the method to add an X10 Primary Address to a button.
Tap the button you want to use.
Push the set button until the module beeps and the LED flashes green.
Send the X10 address and an On three time on the power line. The module should beep twice and the LED should stop flashing.
You can use an X10 remote and tranceiver to send the signals or if HG can send an On three times in a row. By maybe turning the module on three times in the screen. Should also work. I have used remotes or an X10 controller to do mine from time to time.
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The manual for the module. On pages 13-14 give the method to add an X10 Primary Address to a button.
Tap the button you want to use.
Push the set button until the module beeps and the LED flashes green.
Send the X10 address and an On three time on the power line. The module should beep twice and the LED should stop flashing.
You can use an X10 remote and tranceiver to send the signals or if HG can send an On three times in a row. By maybe turning the module on three times in the screen. Should also work. I have used remotes or an X10 controller to do mine from time to time.
Not sure what I am doing wrong. The buttons just continue to blink. Like they are not receiving the X10 signal from the remote. I tried it with the X10 module i built in HG. No Joy. Remote. No Joy. It is NOT a phase couppling issue or noise issue.
I understand what to do. I am just not sure i have the right tools to make it happen. :-(
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Since this is a newly installed switch.
You may want to try a Factory Reset on it. There are posts on some Insteon Modules shipping with test links in them and acting strange. Many users do a Factory Reset on all of their new modules before installing.
So if you do the sequence. Tap the button you want the X10 address added too. Main On Off button set also will control the connected Load with an X10 address. Small Scene buttons X10 address when pushed send an X10 command to other X10 devices.
Hold the Set Button for the beep and the button LED flashes. Send the X10 address you wanted to add C1 in your case. C1On,C1On,C1On. The LED keeps flashing, no double beep and the X10 address is not added to the button selected.
I would suspect noise or signal not getting to the switch. Though you have a handle on such things.
Any way you can use the remote and a transceiver or plug in controller like a Mini Controller or Maxi Controller, connected to the same circuit as the switches. Your SC1200 can also send X10 On and Off commands on the power lines. Through the keyboard buttons. To the House Code you have selected in the Options menu. You can set it to C and then use the keypad buttons to send the On commands. To see if that changed anything?
If you can safely. Temporarily wire an test AC cord to one of the switches and plug it into the same circuit as the CM15A or remotes transceiver that could also show something. Though you would have to take it out of the box to do the tests.
Another remote possibility is Smartlabs finally removed X10 support from the module. As it has not been listed in the Keypads Specifications for awhile now. Just users reports of X10 still worked even if not specified any longer. Others here may have better information on their using X10 with the Keypad still working.
What are the numbers on the white sticker? Insteon six digit ID in this case not applicable for X10. Date Code and Hardware Revision number. I maybe able to poke around and see if I can find anything
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It's been awhile since I've programmed one but I remember that a Maxi Controller or old Ultrasonic version was the better choice as you press two buttons, one for the unit code and one for ON, which the KP or switch seems to prefer. I recall something in the original setup instructions about that from many years ago. BTW, the 'beep' is, to my old ears, barely perceptible probably because my tinnitus is louder and similar in frequency. :'
Here's the detailed instructions: https://www.insteon.com/support-knowledgebase/insteon-x10-programming
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It's been awhile since I've programmed one but I remember that a Maxi Controller or old Ultrasonic version was the better choice as you press two buttons, one for the unit code and one for ON, which the KP or switch seems to prefer. I recall something in the original setup instructions about that from many years ago. BTW, the 'beep' is, to my old ears, barely perceptible probably because my tinnitus is louder and similar in frequency. :'
Here's the detailed instructions: https://www.insteon.com/support-knowledgebase/insteon-x10-programming
So I used an activhome pro setup that I have with a CM15 to follow the programming guide.
1st I put the switch in program mode. The only difference was the manual says the LED blinks green. I don't think it is green but I do get the beep and blinking.
I used the AHP and CM15 to send A13 Aon A13 Aon A13 Aon. The switch flashes.....and when the codes are send it flashes quickly instead of it's 1:1 tempo pace. This tells me the switch is sensing the X10 commands. But it never programs.
Ugh..... >*< >*<
B:( B:(
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I see in the X10 Insteon Programming link from brobin.
The first paragraph says The new Insteon devices have X10 functionality phased out.
I know X10 is not listed in the specification pages of most of the sales pages now. Though unofficialy for awhile now. Some still did. Maye it is gone in the KeypadLincs now.
You could be correct. The double flashing of the LED may indelicate it received the signal but it was not accepted.
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I see in the X10 Insteon Programming link from brobin.
The first paragraph says The new Insteon devices have X10 functionality phased out.
I know X10 is not listed in the specification pages of most of the sales pages now. Though unofficialy for awhile now. Some still did. Maye it is gone in the KeypadLincs now.
You could be correct. The double flashing of the LED may indelicate it received the signal but it was not accepted.
The new switch comes with a simple pamphlet that states how to install it electrically.
There is a link (and I got from SmartHome) to a page that shows how to program X10 primary address to the switch. This link and info has been shared a bazillion (exaggerated) times in this thread. Smarthome insists that it will work. But I sure cannot do it. I am thinking that even though I did a macro in AHP with the Address and then the group on three times that I did it right.
Bottom line is I want to control a light with the top/bottom switch and then a bathroom fan with the scene buttons.
Is there any workaround besides the X10. I realize at this point I am going to probably have to spend more money for this. Fine. I am okay with that.
If that bathroom fan don't got no button for making it turn on. My woman is going to kill me.
I guess the cheapest solution is a slap a switch from X10 to control the fan. But I sure would not like to do that if not possible.
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Just to make sure, after you press and hold the program button and the light starts blinking, you then first press the keypad button you want to program and then send the X10 codes, right?
I'll be at my other place this weekend where I have some of these, albeit they're 10 years old, so I'll try programming one to see exactly what works. I'll try with a mini-controller even though I've always used a maxi.
One other thing. Before you try again, pull out the programming button all the way till the LED goes off, then push it all the way in to get into programming mode.
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The instructions for the present Dual Band Keypads. Say tap the button you want to add first. Then hold the programming button until the LED flashes and it beeps. Can't hurt to try holding the set button first and then tapping the button you want to use. To see if that method will work.
Your older Keypads are probably the old power line only 2486D and program differently depending on hardware revision.
Original hardware manual says hold the button you want to program until its LED flashes. Then send the X10 commands.
The hardware V5 manual says tap the button you want to program. Then hold the set button until it beeps and the Led starts flashing. Then send the X10 commands.
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Just to make sure, after you press and hold the program button and the light starts blinking, you then first press the keypad button you want to program and then send the X10 codes, right?
I'll be at my other place this weekend where I have some of these, albeit they're 10 years old, so I'll try programming one to see exactly what works. I'll try with a mini-controller even though I've always used a maxi.
One other thing. Before you try again, pull out the programming button all the way till the LED goes off, then push it all the way in to get into programming mode.
The PDF says to push the button first. Then put the switch into linking mode. Pushing the button afterwards turned linking mode off. Once in linking mode, sending A1 Aon (repeat three times) should set the X10 address on the switch. In my case. No joy. I am told I can do it with a remote. But again. No joy. I tried with AHP. I made a macro that sends the commands and still no joy. I know I am doing something wrong as the switch tries to "listen" but does not program.
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In AHP you could also make a Chime Module on the address you wanted to use. Then start the process and sound the chime from the AHP screen a few times. That will also send the on command each time you push the onscreen button.
There is still the possibility they finally dropped X10 support. As it looks like your module received the X10 addresses and didn't like it.
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In AHP you could also make a Chime Module on the address you wanted to use. Then start the process and sound the chime from the AHP screen a few times. That will also send the on command each time you push the onscreen button.
There is still the possibility they finally dropped X10 support. As it looks like your module received the X10 addresses and didn't like it.
I wonder if I bought an insteon hub. Would I be able to maybe trigger the X10 fan module based on pressing scene A button?
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Insteon support in my Home Genie program would be a solution to all this!!
I wish.....I wish.......I wish............
;D -:) :' rofl :)%
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The original 2242-222 HUB supported X10.
The presently sold 2245-222 HUB does not officially support X10. I have not seen anyone saying they used it with X10.
For HG to do Insteon. I suspect it would have to be used with a 2413S/U PLM or a HUB. To get Insteon messages processed and a Link Database of addresses to control it. I was poking around the HG web site and did see an Insteon 2413U/2413S PLM driver. Not too sure if it was a third party driver or how it maybe used.
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The original 2242-222 HUB supported X10.
The presently sold 2245-222 HUB does not officially support X10. I have not seen anyone saying they used it with X10.
For HG to do Insteon. I suspect it would have to be used with a 2413S/U PLM or a HUB. To get Insteon messages processed and a Link Database of addresses to control it. I was poking around the HG web site and did see an Insteon 2413U/2413S PLM driver. Not too sure if it was a third party driver or how it maybe used.
Do I just need the 222 hub, power cord, and ethernet cable? Will this allow me to link those buttons on the keypad to the X10 address of the fan module? I want to buy all this at once and solve this issue.
thank you for the help.
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Insteon support in my Home Genie program would be a solution to all this!!
I wish.....I wish.......I wish............
;D -:) :' rofl :)%
When you wish... https://genielabs.github.io/HomeGenie/api/mig/mig_api_insteon.html
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I found a comparison chart on an automation web site. Between the original 2242-222 HUB and the presently sold 2245-222.
It said the 2245-222 did not support X10 only the original 2242-222.
I know the HUB has basic functions and has limited features. Like no conditional programming. It also is accessed and programed through the Cloud and a smartphone APP.
You may get more information in the Insteon and Smarthome Forums.
https://forum.insteon.com/
https://forum.smarthome.com/default.asp
I see brobin gave you the link to HG Insteon API. That I had seen but neglected to share the link. B:(
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About 30 minutes before having to leave for the airport yesterday the incandescent recessed lights in a hallway started flickering & flashing on and off. B:( Those lights (two 65w bulbs) are controlled by button 1 (internal dimmer) on a 2486D Keypadlinc. Pressing the button on or off made no difference, only pulling the airgap tab at the bottom would stop it. The other buttons that only send X10 signals worked fine. Normally I'd have just left it that way till I returned but there was a showing scheduled for today so I decided to quickly replace it with a spare. The replacement part took all of 5 minutes but then I had to program it. It took a couple of tries but pressing the button to be programmed and then pressing and holding the airgap tab for a few seconds produced the beep and flashing button. Sending the desired code (M2-On) three times programmed the button to M2 and all is well. I even had time to program the other buttons. You have to be careful not to send the three codes too quickly or too slowly. So that confirms the correct method. This is the second time in 11 years that I've had to replace that keypad. Lucky I had spares. :'
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It does sound like Murphy hit at the poorest time. I am glad you had a few spares and programming was fairly uneventful. My spares box also has a few extras. ;D
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... the incandescent recessed lights in a hallway started flickering & flashing on and off. B:( Those lights (two 65w bulbs) are controlled by button 1 (internal dimmer) on a 2486D Keypadlinc. ...
I had a similar thing happen to me, with lights controlled by an older pre-insteon SmartHome ToggleLinc dimmer. I went to turn it on, and they just started to strobe. And the air gap was the only way to stop it - but as soon as I pushed it back in, they started strobing again. Since I have *never* (in the 12 years since we added those lights) needed to control them using X10 - or even dim them, I just replaced the bad switch with a standard toggle (dumb) toggle switch.
I suspect that it was a failed capacitor, as I've had a number of other capacitors fail in the Smarthome switches over the years (I've repaired two or three Insteon Togglelink relay switches so far, with others in the box, waiting for me to have time to fix them). I also had an older (pre-insteon) Togglelinc switch that had failed a few years earlier. I don't think I ever bothered to open that one up to diagnose it, since it was being used in conjunction with a companion switch, and both got swapped out for Insteon relay switches.
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I am getting good at changing the capacitors in the 2413S/U PLM and revision 2 2443 Access Points.
They have a switching supply and questionable capacitors being low ESR.