X10 Community Forum
📱🖥️PiX10Hub => 🏥Help and Trouble Shooting => Topic started by: Tuicemen on December 22, 2018, 08:10:25 AM
-
The PiX10Hub is designed to replace AHP not complement it. Using the hub with AHP even if with another controler can and most likely will cause issues. The idea of this was to get away from AHPs issues why drag down a stable sytem with a unstable one?
-
The CM15A does not have a great RF range. As pointed out in so many posts here and the new X10 repeater was not in production yet.
How about a V572 connected to an XTB-IIR TW523 emulation connector?
Even with the Transceived House Codes set to NONE through AHP. I have found that the House Codes in the X10 Demonstration in HG get enabled in the CM15A and stay enabled even if I temporarily power up up standalone as a transceiver with the V572 Off.
-
I believe it is possible to disable the RF on the CM15 using simular Linux drivers that HG is based off so it might be worth requesting that feature.
-
I believe it is possible to disable the RF on the CM15 using simular Linux drivers that HG is based off so it might be worth requesting that feature.
If you are finding difficulties with rf range on your CM15 and really need full rf range I suggest you decommission it and purchase the inexpensive CM19 alternative now that the hub supports it.
Contrary to what some may post here, AHP and the PiX10 hub will not work in parallel satisfactorily.
Even if you do have another CM15 lying about with pre programmed macros and timers, it will cause you difficulties. You are advised to remove any other X10 controllers out of the loop on your power lines and ensure even if they are disconnected from your computer that they are not in a position to transceiver a signal.
-
If you are finding difficulties with rf range on your CM15 and really need full rf range I suggest you decommission it and purchase the inexpensive CM19 alternative now that the hub supports it.
HomeGenie on the PiX10Hub doesn't directly send RF from the CM15 by default. However it is possible to send Raw RF To send RF with CM15 you can use a Wizard Script or a C#, Javascript, Phyton.
You can also send by calling the API directly:
http://<homegenie_address>/api/HomeAutomation.X10/RF/Control.RfSend/20-40-BF-68-97
This would send C7-OFF, but the CM15 will not execute the command over PLC because the CM15 itself is the sender of the command. So there must be another receiver that will do something with this RF command (another transceiver).
I tested it with CM15Pro for sending and a CM19 for receiving and it worked.
A list of all X10 RF codes is available here:
https://github.com/trrroy/cm19a/blob/master/CM19aProtocol.ini
A RF repeater should be helpful if the cm15 isn't seeing RF or you wish to extend the RF send from the CM15
-
How about a V572 connected to an XTB-IIR TW523 emulation connector?
I am currently using that setup and it seems to be working fine with the PiX10Hub. I have the Pi external to the CM15A which is plugged into the XTB-IIR, and have started working on a UPS using a phone power bank and CHRON code in the Pi for a soft shutdown. Unfortunately, I probably won't finish until sometime early next year as it is time to hang out with our family.
-
I have the Pi external to the CM15A which is plugged into the XTB-IIR ...
It is not a good idea to plug the CM15A directly into the Boost input because the CM15A does not have AGC to ignore powerline noise. I recommend plugging it into a nearby AC outlet, and use the XTB-IIR strictly as a repeater.
The XTB-IIR Boost input is isolated from the powerline by a low-pass filter so it can differentiate between signals coming in there from those coming in over the powerline. A return signal bandpass amplifier passes X10 signals from the powerline back to the Boost input so devices can monitor X10 powerline traffic. Powerline noise near the X10 bandpass can also be amplified and look like X10 signals. The CM15A is a "polite" transmitter, and will delay or inhibit transmissions when it believes there is already X10 traffic on the powerline.
Note that 1.20 and later firmware versions include a mode option to reduce the return signal amplifier gain. That will reduce the amplified noise, but it also reduces the ability of the XTB-IIR to repeat weak incoming X10 signals.
Jeff
-
It is not a good idea to plug the CM15A directly into the Boost input because the CM15A does not have AGC to ignore powerline noise. I recommend plugging it into a nearby AC outlet, and use the XTB-IIR strictly as a repeater.
Isn't aware of this recommendation. I've been using my CM15A plugged into the booster port for several years without any known issues. I have had some issues that I haven't figured out, so I suppose those could be related (phantom commands coming from nowhere, missed HU commands so the wrong light turns on, etc.). I assumed these were just periodic issues with the power line and never took the time to look into them.
-
I've been using my CM15A plugged into the booster port for several years without any known issues. I have had some issues that I haven't figured out, so I suppose those could be related (phantom commands coming from nowhere, missed HU commands so the wrong light turns on, etc.)
The CM15A can work fine plugged into the Boost input when there is low powerline noise. I pointed out the possible problem due to the title "Erratic behavior". When there is a problem, commands will be delayed or not sent at all by the CM15A. It won't result in phantom commands.
Jeff
-
Ahhh, ok. Thanks for clarification.
-
The cool thing with the PiX10Hub is it will work with so many X10 controlers. The possibility for it to control even new ones that may come along means X10 can have a future with more powerful and reliable controlers.
-
The cool thing with the PiX10Hub is it will work with so many X10 controlers. The possibility for it to control even new ones that may come along means X10 can have a future with more powerful and reliable controlers.
Just to clarify that HG currently supports the CM11/CM12 the CM15a/CM15Pro and the CM19. Potentially it could support any controller presented to it, both X10 and non X10 but that support would need to be written for it by the software's author GenieLabs.
I think the above mentioned X10 controllers more than cover most users needs for now. Any one of them can be easily added to the Raspberry Pi for full X10 functionality.
A special mention must go out to GenieLabs of HomeGenie fame and BW Systems of HA Bridge fame. Again a donation to their current endeavours I'm sure would be greatly received. Finally a special mention to Tuicemen and a few others for pulling it all together into one single downloadable image.
Of course the best reward for all above will be your reports back on your successful X10 setup >!
-
Of course the best reward for all above will be your reports back on your successful X10 setup >!
So true! ;)
I believe even the CM17 firecracker can be used with HG as I've seen a firecracker module in the package manager.
As well with the available script writing tools included in HG it is possible for end users to add the ability to interface with many other Hubs or HA devices and protocols not already supported by HomeGenie.
-
I have the Pi external to the CM15A which is plugged into the XTB-IIR ...
It is not a good idea to plug the CM15A directly into the Boost input because the CM15A does not have AGC to ignore powerline noise. I recommend plugging it into a nearby AC outlet, and use the XTB-IIR strictly as a repeater.
The XTB-IIR Boost input is isolated from the powerline by a low-pass filter so it can differentiate between signals coming in there from those coming in over the powerline. A return signal bandpass amplifier passes X10 signals from the powerline back to the Boost input so devices can monitor X10 powerline traffic. Powerline noise near the X10 bandpass can also be amplified and look like X10 signals. The CM15A is a "polite" transmitter, and will delay or inhibit transmissions when it believes there is already X10 traffic on the powerline.
Note that 1.20 and later firmware versions include a mode option to reduce the return signal amplifier gain. That will reduce the amplified noise, but it also reduces the ability of the XTB-IIR to repeat weak incoming X10 signals.
Jeff
Jeff,
I went away for the holidays and never got back to see this thread until this evening...
This may explain some of the intermittent issues I have, which I have been attributing to my unique house wiring. I have two main panels connected in parallel at my incoming power meter, both of which have distant sub panels connected to them. One of the panels has the XTB-IIR connected to it on a dedicated 240V circuit breaker, along with a V572A connected to the XTB. This is where I currently have my CM15A plugged into the Boost outlet and have the PiX10Hub plugged into the USB input of the CM15A. I am relying on the power meter connection to bridge into the other main electric panel and its associated circuits. The wiring in our old and many times improved house is spaghetti. Just a few weeks ago, I found a wire at the roof of my attic that was running the length of the house and unterminated at the far end. It was hot and connected to the line inside one of my living room outlets!!!
Functionally, I think the optimum would be to have the CM15A only provide X10 commands to the XTB. That way, all the AC and RF commands would originate from the XTB. I believe I disabled the CM15A RF transmissions by wiping all the macros and disabling transceived codes through AHP prior to hooking up the PiX10Hub, but I did not make any HW mods to be sure.
So...my question is whether you think I will be better off with the configuration I have now, with the increased powerline noise, or have the CM15A plugged into a wall outlet and have the XTB resend its signals. I will experiment, but since I have no adequate test equipment, it will be difficult to unequivocally determine any improvement.
-
Functionally, I think the optimum would be to have the CM15A only provide X10 commands to the XTB. That way, all the AC and RF commands would originate from the XTB. I believe I disabled the CM15A RF transmissions by wiping all the macros and disabling transceived codes through AHP prior to hooking up the PiX10Hub, but I did not make any HW mods to be sure.
So...my question is whether you think I will be better off with the configuration I have now, with the increased powerline noise, or have the CM15A plugged into a wall outlet and have the XTB resend its signals. I will experiment, but since I have no adequate test equipment, it will be difficult to unequivocally determine any improvement.
Due to the possibility of amplified powerline noise causing the CM15A to delay or inhibit transmissions, usually the best configuration is to plug it into a nearby wall outlet instead of directly into the X10 Boost input. But if you know you have low powerline noise the CM15A can work fine when plugged into the X10 Boost input. Try both options and choose whichever works best.
Jeff
-
Jeff, thanks for a quick response. I will reply here once I have had some time to test.
-
I have a very similar setup to what you are running*. I have had the CM15A plugged into the booster port for a few years without any known issues. That doesn't mean you won't, but I have been very happy overall with this configuration.
*configuration:
2 200A panels with vault in between
1 distant sub panel
XTB-IIR on dedicated 240V breaker
CM15A plugged into booster port
HG on RPI
-
Thanks for the confirmation -- I thought I understood that from some previous post.
I have been having intermittent issues for years, and especially now with the PiX10Hub using HABridge and Alexa voice commands. Alexa commands from my Android phone seem to be more reliable as do my RF switches, but none are anywhere near 100%, though they eventually do work after multiple attempts. This sounds a lot like what Jeff was describing, so a test makes sense to me.
-
Since you are capable of working with your panel (I assume you installed the XTB-IIR), you could just add an outlet on the same breaker as the 240V (either leg should work IIRC). If I were to install things again, I'd probably do the same since that's what Jeff recommended (didn't see it until after everything was set up though).
In fact, if I had it to do again, I'd install a 240V outlet and a 120V outlet. I'd install the XTB-IIR via a 240V plug rather than hard wired which would eliminate any issues should an inspector freak out. Then I'd have the 120V for the CM15A. All would be off the same breaker.
-
I actually use the breaker for the XTB-IIR for my generator hookup, so have the XTB-IIR connected though a dryer outlet/plug. When I have to use the generator, I unplug the XTB-IIR before connecting the generator. I like your idea of adding a 120V outlet on that circuit and will do so if the testing shows better performance with the XTB-IIR not plugged into the Boost outlet. Thanks for suggesting!
-
Since you are capable of working with your panel (I assume you installed the XTB-IIR), you could just add an outlet on the same breaker as the 240V (either leg should work IIRC). If I were to install things again, I'd probably do the same since that's what Jeff recommended (didn't see it until after everything was set up though).
In fact, if I had it to do again, I'd install a 240V outlet and a 120V outlet. I'd install the XTB-IIR via a 240V plug rather than hard wired which would eliminate any issues should an inspector freak out. Then I'd have the 120V for the CM15A. All would be off the same breaker.
Doing that can be dangerous if not done correctly. The dryer outlet is likely served by a 30a or higher dual breaker. If you put a standard 15 or 20a 120v outlet on one side it is only protected by that 30a breaker. That means that whatever is plugged into the 120v outlet will likely melt and catch fire if there's a problem. The proper way to do it is to run the 240v line into a small sub-panel with a dual breaker for the XTB-IIR and a single 20a amp breaker for the 120v outlet. There are some small sub-panels for pool equipment that will do nicely and take up very little space.
A good choice that I've used before is the GE TPL412CP for under $20 at HD, Lowe's and Amazon.
-
I installed a 15a 240V breaker, so in my case a standard outlet would work. If a 30A breaker is used, a 15a outlet could pose a safety Hazzard since a device plugged into the 15A outlet would not trip the breaker until 30A.
-
When I got my XTB-IIR (many) years ago, I installed a dedicated 240V breaker (I think it was 15A - on each leg), and ran that to a new 2-gang outlet box I installed right next to the breaker box. That box has a 240V outlet for the XTB-IIR (which I wired with an appropriate cord and plug - so I can disconnect it), and also a split-wired duplex outlet. That gave me a test location on each phase, as close to the breaker box as possible. It also gave me a dedicated circuit I could use for testing - while shutting *everything* else off in the house. Once I was assing the new breaker(s) and dedicated 240V outlet for the XTB-IIR, adding the extra duplex outlet was a no-brainer.
-
A split outlet is brilliant! If I rewire things, I like your approach and would definitely consider going that way. A simple 2-gang box next to the XTB-IIR should be compact and look good as well.
-
A circuit breaker is intended to protect the wiring, so that if too large a current is passed through it, the wire will not overheat and cause a fire. The NEC allows for a 15A outlet to be used on a 20A circuit if there are other receptacles on the circuit, the 15A outlet is rated for 20A passthrough (most are) and the wiring is suitable for 20A (12ga in most cases). On a 30A circuit, as stated above, you would need to have a subpanel with a 15A or 20A breaker and appropriate wiring downstream.
In any case, I find it confusing to use 15A outlets on a 20A circuit and do not install them even though it meets code. My concern is for others who might work on the circuit later and assume incorrectly that it is protected by a 15A breaker.
-
A split outlet is brilliant! If I rewire things, I like your approach and would definitely consider going that way. A simple 2-gang box next to the XTB-IIR should be compact and look good as well.
I went back to my notes, to make sure I had the information right.
I installed a 20A 2-pole breaker (they didn't have any 15A ones for my breaker box in stock at Home Depot that day), and I ran a 12-3 wire from the breaker box to the 2-gang box I added on the wall right next to it. I wired that to both a NEMA 6-20 plug, and the split-wired duplex outlet (which I think was actually a 15A outlet, because that's what I had on hand, but I don't think that's a problem in this case). I could find an appropriate 2-gang cover plate that had the duplex outlet on one side and the singe round hole on the other, so I modified one for a toggle/duplex by making the center hole larger. It worked. (Tip: you can't easily modify the plastic cover plates - they crack too easily. Use the "unbreakable" nylon ones instead).
I used another length of the 12-3 wire between the plug and the XTB-IIR, which in hindsight was a mistake. That wire is too rigid to easily work with (and was overkill for this application). But it's what I had on hand at the time, and it is done.
-
...I ran a 12-3 wire from the breaker box to the 2-gang box I added on the wall right next to it.
You said you swap the XTB-IIR for a generator. Are you only feeding 15A from your generator into the box via a 30A dryer plug? My Honda inverter is 15A only, but most full size generators push 20A, 30A, or larger for whole house systems. The genset plug outside my house is a 30A IIRC.
A circuit breaker is intended to protect the wiring, so that if too large a current is passed through it, the wire will not overheat and cause a fire. The NEC allows for a 15A outlet to be used on a 20A circuit if there are other receptacles on the circuit, the 15A outlet is rated for 20A passthrough (most are) and the wiring is suitable for 20A (12ga in most cases). On a 30A circuit, as stated above, you would need to have a subpanel with a 15A or 20A breaker and appropriate wiring downstream.
In any case, I find it confusing to use 15A outlets on a 20A circuit and do not install them even though it meets code. My concern is for others who might work on the circuit later and assume incorrectly that it is protected by a 15A breaker.
Yes, the breaker will protect the wire if it's sized correctly for the breaker. But if you have a 15A outlet I would say generally you won't see that on a breaker rated higher than 20A. I was just saying that a 30A breaker with 15A outlet would not stop a device that was designed for 10A from pulling 30A and destroying the outlet (who cares, they are cheap) and causing a fire within the device or the wall (well now we have a problem). I'm not an electrician and have only done minor work after speaking to qualified techs so don't design a system based on my word. I'm just giving my experience as a DIY homeowner.
-
Even a properly sized breaker is no guarantee. 30 years ago we had a saltwater aquarium in the living room with a powerstrip on the floor for the filter pump and heater. Apparently some water somehow splashed on the powerstrip which caused enough of a short to melt it into a blob and burn the carpet. B:( When I walked in the door the tip off was the layer of smoke wafting through the house. Neither the breaker on the power strip nor in the panel had tripped. If it weren't for the fire resistant carpet it would have been much worse! Since then I've developed an affinity for metal powerstrips.
-
...I ran a 12-3 wire from the breaker box to the 2-gang box I added on the wall right next to it.
You said you swap the XTB-IIR for a generator. Are you only feeding 15A from your generator into the box via a 30A dryer plug? My Honda inverter is 15A only, but most full size generators push 20A, 30A, or larger for whole house systems. The genset plug outside my house is a 30A IIRC.
Nope, that wasn't me - I don't have a generator. Hollybrook was the one who mentioned connecting the generator in place of the XTB-IIR.
-
...I ran a 12-3 wire from the breaker box to the 2-gang box I added on the wall right next to it.
You said you swap the XTB-IIR for a generator. Are you only feeding 15A from your generator into the box via a 30A dryer plug? My Honda inverter is 15A only, but most full size generators push 20A, 30A, or larger for whole house systems. The genset plug outside my house is a 30A IIRC.
Nope, that wasn't me - I don't have a generator. Hollybrook was the one who mentioned connecting the generator in place of the XTB-IIR.
Ah, ok. Was just merging comments together!