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📱🖥️PiX10Hub ( Always Evolving Open Source) => 💬General Discussion => Topic started by: Tuicemen on December 28, 2018, 07:33:00 PM

Title: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on December 28, 2018, 07:33:00 PM
I know it is possible to add a USB Hub or hat to the ZeroW.
But what I'm wondering is those that used the test pads to add an additional USB.
I have a few ZWave modules for things X10 has no equivalent like a door lock. HomeGenie can see a ZWave controller if connected to the OTG USB port or if I have it connected to a USB Hub. However add a X10 CM to the USB hub and neither is seen. B:( I plan to utilize the solder pads in my Cm15/Pi mod any ways But I'm wondering if HG will see this as a Hub or a new specific USB port. ::) :'
I do have an extra Zero W which could be used just for ZWave and maybe some other protocols  but I have other plans for it.
I'm also not sure how to intergate multi HG Pis though I'm sure I'd figureit out if need be.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: bkenobi on December 29, 2018, 08:11:11 AM
I don't know about the USB port, but there were several users on the old HG forum who ran muktiple HG setups. If you try that route, the old forum should have the info or, since Gene is here, he might be able to offer advice on any issues.  There is an app inside HG for communicating between, but I've never tried it.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on December 29, 2018, 08:26:12 AM
I don't know about the USB port, but there were several users on the old HG forum who ran muktiple HG setups. If you try that route, the old forum should have the info or, since Gene is here, he might be able to offer advice on any issues.  There is an app inside HG for communicating between, but I've never tried it.
Thanks bkenobi, I've just started to play with the integrating part of HG to pass info from one HG setup to another.

I'd realy like to have all HA control from one instance of HG running on the PiX10Hub if possible.
 Maybe I'll need to pick up a different Pi to run the PiX10Hub from. ::) :'
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: racerfern on December 29, 2018, 04:54:02 PM
So, of all the RPi boards available is the Zero W the only one that can be used with the image that has been created?

I thought I saw something about this but couldn't find the post.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on December 29, 2018, 05:09:02 PM
This looks like a worthwhile addition to a Pi Zero W...
http://referencedesigner.com/blog/order-hubserialixed/6731/ (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1728237598/hubserialixed-usb-hub-uart-for-pi-zero-w/description)

Scroll to TOP of page for a current link for ordering.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on December 30, 2018, 07:12:49 AM
I believe that attaches to the solder test pads.
I've seem similar addon boards but all are more then the Pi Zero W I first picked up this one is a little closer in price.
Good find!
I may order one of these to allow future expansion However for now I need to see if the solder test pads are recognized by HG as a separate USB port and I only need one extra port at the moment.
 >!
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Brian H on December 30, 2018, 07:37:53 AM
I have seen a Zero4U four port USB adapter for I believe $9.95.
Latest revision also worked with a Pi Zero W. Added a ferrite ring on two of the pins. The W's Wi-Fi RF was causing issues.
It mounts on the back side of the Pi Zero W with spacers and nylon screws. It use Pogo pins to contact the needed test pads on the Pi Zero W. Is the same physical size of the Pi Zero W's PCB.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on December 30, 2018, 07:40:06 AM
I'm not intimately familiar with the Pi Zero W features but have read that you have to disable Bluetooth in order to use the native UART. So, it would seem the advantage of the hubserialixed is that you can add USB ports and a serial port without losing Bluetooth. It would seem ideal for integrating the various HA technologies as well as peripherals like a keyboard and mouse.

I don't really have the need for one as my personal HA needs are quite modest these days but I have ordered one and will try to play with it as time allows. I will post my conclusions (and any confusions) here.

And, although the product webpage isn't explicit it does imply that it connects via Pogo pins, leaving all 40 IO pins free.
 
The designer has an earlier version for the Pi Zero that was just a 4-port USB hub, but dropped one USB port so he could add the serial port for the Pi Zero W.
https://www.cnx-software.com/2016/02/29/hubpixed-is-a-neat-and-cablefree-usb-hub-for-the-raspberry-pi-zero-crowdfunding/ (https://www.cnx-software.com/2016/02/29/hubpixed-is-a-neat-and-cablefree-usb-hub-for-the-raspberry-pi-zero-crowdfunding/)

One advantage of the earlier version was it made it easy to add a WiFi dongle to the Pi Zero.

PS: The above link does explicitly show the Pogo pins.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on December 30, 2018, 08:24:35 AM
Thanks for the added info, as I suspected it does utilize the test pads.
I've the bluetooth utilized in my ZeroW to get sound notifications so I deffinately don't want to loose BT. >! >!
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on December 30, 2018, 08:41:13 AM
Also, I'm not at all familiar with HG, but would think that having a serial port available for a CM11A or XTB-232 would be necessary for full featured HA systems support on the Pi Zero and Pi Zero W.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on December 30, 2018, 08:48:51 AM
Also, I'm not at all familiar with HG, but would think that having a serial port available for a CM11A or XTB-232 would be necessary for full featured HA systems support on the Pi Zero and Pi Zero W.
yes a serial port being available is useful for so many things.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: petera on December 30, 2018, 10:38:16 AM
Also, I'm not at all familiar with HG, but would think that having a serial port available for a CM11A or XTB-232 would be necessary for full featured HA systems support on the Pi Zero and Pi Zero W.

Youíve a number of options there for the CM11. Usb to serial cable, utilise the GPIO pins or a pi serial hat. The GPIO option also gives you a console which you can use to troubleshoot the board in the event it doesnít boot.

Iíve tried all three options and they work. The GPIO options requires a little mod which isnít too difficult.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on December 31, 2018, 06:57:22 AM
Using a USB2Serial cable for a CM11A works but uses the only USB connection on the Pi Zero. In effect that's what the Hubpixed or HubSerialpixedHubSerialpixed has done by adding a USB2Serial IC in place of one of the USB connections of their earlier Hubpixed.

Most of the Pi Serial Hats commandeer the native UART of the Pi Zero and Pi Zero W which disables Bluetooth on the latter.

The GPIO method is certainly viable, assuming it does not use the UART, but is certainly more complicated than just bolting on a Hubpixed or HubSerialpixed.

If we are talking about creating an HA Hub, I think the additional ports are necessary (and relatively inexpensive with a Hubpixed or HubSerialpixed).

An added advantage for the earlier Pi Zero is that some of 4 the extra USB ports can be used with dongles to add WiFi and Bluetooth.

https://www.amazon.com/ZTC-Wireless-Adapter-802-11N-ZTC-WUE001-BK/dp/B013PY31X0 (https://www.amazon.com/ZTC-Wireless-Adapter-802-11N-ZTC-WUE001-BK/dp/B013PY31X0)

https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Receiver-Transfer-Wireless-Keyboard/dp/B0775YF36R (https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Receiver-Transfer-Wireless-Keyboard/dp/B0775YF36R/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1546257852&sr=1-3&keywords=bluetooth+adapter)/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1546257852&sr=1-3&keywords=bluetooth+adapter (https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Receiver-Transfer-Wireless-Keyboard/dp/B0775YF36R/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1546257852&sr=1-3&keywords=bluetooth+adapter)

The Hubpixed and HubSerialpixed connect to D+ & D- beneath the Pi's USB connector and to GND & 3V3 via spring loaded Pogo pins.

http://referencedesigner.com/blog/hubpixed-raspberry-pi-zero-hub-without-cable-or-connector/6551/ (http://referencedesigner.com/blog/hubpixed-raspberry-pi-zero-hub-without-cable-or-connector/6551/)

http://referencedesigner.com/blog/order-hubserialixed/6731/ (http://referencedesigner.com/blog/order-hubserialixed/6731/)
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: petera on December 31, 2018, 08:12:08 AM
Using a USB2Serial cable for a CM11A works but uses the only USB connection on the Pi Zero. In effect that's what the Hubpixed or HubSerialpixedHubSerialpixed has done by adding a USB2Serial IC in place of one of the USB connections of their earlier Hubpixed.

Most of the Pi Serial Hats commandeer the native UART of the Pi Zero and Pi Zero W which disables Bluetooth on the latter.

The GPIO method is certainly viable, assuming it does not use the UART, but is certainly more complicated than just bolting on a Hubpixed or HubSerialpixed.

If we are talking about creating an HA Hub, I think the additional ports are necessary (and relatively inexpensive with a Hubpixed or HubSerialpixed).

An added advantage for the earlier Pi Zero is that some of 4 the extra USB ports can be used with dongles to add WiFi and Bluetooth.

https://www.amazon.com/ZTC-Wireless-Adapter-802-11N-ZTC-WUE001-BK/dp/B013PY31X0 (https://www.amazon.com/ZTC-Wireless-Adapter-802-11N-ZTC-WUE001-BK/dp/B013PY31X0)

https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Receiver-Transfer-Wireless-Keyboard/dp/B0775YF36R (https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Receiver-Transfer-Wireless-Keyboard/dp/B0775YF36R/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1546257852&sr=1-3&keywords=bluetooth+adapter)/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1546257852&sr=1-3&keywords=bluetooth+adapter (https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Receiver-Transfer-Wireless-Keyboard/dp/B0775YF36R/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1546257852&sr=1-3&keywords=bluetooth+adapter)

The Hubpixed and HubSerialpixed connect to D+ & D- beneath the Pi's USB connector and to GND & 3V3 via spring loaded Pogo pins.

http://referencedesigner.com/blog/hubpixed-raspberry-pi-zero-hub-without-cable-or-connector/6551/ (http://referencedesigner.com/blog/hubpixed-raspberry-pi-zero-hub-without-cable-or-connector/6551/)

http://referencedesigner.com/blog/order-hubserialixed/6731/ (http://referencedesigner.com/blog/order-hubserialixed/6731/)

Personally speaking if you were to push connections beyond one USB port I'd opt for a standard Raspberry Pi. Double the RAM, nearly twice the processor, 4 USB ports to choose from and of course on board Ethernet.

Running two server software packages on a Pi Zero v a Standard Raspberry Pi really does show the performance difference too. Simpler solution as its ready to go out of the box.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on December 31, 2018, 09:10:49 AM
For me the only advantage of a Zero W is its foot print. Even with the added HubSerialixed - USB Hub + UART for Pi Zero board it will still fit in a CM15. I anyone wished to go that route.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: bkenobi on January 02, 2019, 11:57:00 AM
Agreed.  Unless you want a smaller form factor, the RPi3B+ is currently the best option for price/performance IMO.  But, if the RPiZW gets what you need, it's definitely cheaper, smaller, and simpler.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: alzy on January 02, 2019, 04:04:20 PM
Which usb to serial adapter have u found works with with the P1x10Hub?
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: petera on January 02, 2019, 05:18:59 PM
Which usb to serial adapter have u found works with with the P1x10Hub?

One with an FTDI chipset. A lot of knock offs doing the rounds so be careful.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: alzy on January 03, 2019, 08:19:15 AM
Any particular brand known to work?
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: petera on January 03, 2019, 09:32:34 AM
Any particular brand known to work?

I do not recommend any brand but Startech are known to work.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on January 03, 2019, 10:33:29 AM
Which usb to serial adapter have u found works with with the P1x10Hub?

One with an FTDI chipset. A lot of knock offs doing the rounds so be careful.
Do you mean this FTDI?
https://www.zdnet.com/article/ftdi-admits-to-bricking-innocent-users-chips-in-silent-update/ (https://www.zdnet.com/article/ftdi-admits-to-bricking-innocent-users-chips-in-silent-update/)
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: brobin on January 03, 2019, 10:58:33 AM
Putting aside the ethical discussions, while 'protecting' their brand they now have the unintended consequence of potentially killing it.  Without any way for an end-user to determine if the chip inside is genuine one can't buy any FTDI chipped device with confidence.  Even a legit manufacturer may end up getting cloned chips. 
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: alzy on January 03, 2019, 11:38:04 AM
Well that doesn't sound like the way to go then. B:(
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: brobin on January 03, 2019, 11:48:16 AM
Well, they did say they stopped doing it - hopefully realizing the error of their ways.  I haven't used one with a Pi but I've always had good luck with ones with the Prolific chipset.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on January 03, 2019, 11:54:20 AM
I've also found Prolific to be trouble free but, like brobin, have never tried one with a Pi.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: petera on January 03, 2019, 11:59:49 AM
I'm loathe to give any advice on this forum re hardware or peripheral purchases. Let's put it this way. I have a serial to USB cable that contains a genuine FTDI chipset and guess what.....it works and the cable didn't explode.  :)%

By all means try the Prolific cable if you feel more comfortable. I know if I'd recommended the Prolific in the first place the naysayers would have been lying in ambush anyway  rofl

The article is a little dated at this stage 2014. Still it must be true  >! Either way good luck with your purchase  >!
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on January 03, 2019, 12:41:56 PM
I'm not intimately familiar with the Pi Zero W features but have read that you have to disable Bluetooth in order to use the native UART. So, it would seem the advantage of the hubserialixed is that you can add USB ports and a serial port without losing Bluetooth. It would seem ideal for integrating the various HA technologies as well as peripherals like a keyboard and mouse.
Today's mail brought two packages from referencedesigner.com - one had the HubSerialixed but the other had two boards, each of which have only 3 USB ports. There was no explanation and no documentation. Upon closer inspection I found a HUBPIWI BLUE label and an RTL8723 chip which does WiFi and BT.

A web search using 'HUBPIWI BLUE'  brought me to...
http://referencedesigner.com/blog/get-hubpiwi-blue/6506/ (http://referencedesigner.com/blog/get-hubpiwi-blue/6506/)
which has lessened my confusion.

It appears that you can now use the HUBPIWI BLUE to add 3 USB ports plus WiFi & BT to a standard Pi Zero for $5. While it won't be as fast as the Rpi3B+, it will cost less - especially if you already have a Pi Zero.

I won't have time to play with these for awhile but they sure look interesting.

A bit more web sleuthing turned up the secret sauce used in both the Hubpixed and HUBPIWI BLUE...
http://terminus-usa.com/product/fe1-1s-usb-2-0-high-speed-4-port-hub-controller/ (http://terminus-usa.com/product/fe1-1s-usb-2-0-high-speed-4-port-hub-controller/)

PS: I suspect (but don't know for certain) that the BT vs UART conflict is solved with the HUBPIWI BLUE.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on January 03, 2019, 03:28:11 PM
There is rather minimal (and somewhat hare-y  :' ) documentation for updating Raspbian to support the HubPiWi Blue at...
http://referencedesigner.com/blog/get-hubpiwi-blue/6506/ (http://referencedesigner.com/blog/get-hubpiwi-blue/6506/)
Scroll to the bottom of the page for the links.
The itsy-bitsy screws are a bit of a problem for a geezer with only one semi-useful hand but I did manage to get the HubPiWi Blue wed to the Pi Zero.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on January 03, 2019, 06:30:27 PM
It has been a few years since I worked with Linux and I was never a fan of the command line.
That said, while the $5 Pi Zero + the $5 HubPiWi-Blue is the lowest cost, the $10 Pi Zero W + the $10 HubSerialixed seems the simpler solution unless the Raspbian kernel has been updated for the HubPiWi-Blue.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: brobin on January 03, 2019, 08:38:55 PM
Unless the small form factor is important, it appears that the faster processor performance, dual band WiFi and additional ports on the 3B+ might well justify the additional $15.  The PiZeroW is great for running small stuff and learning but at such a small premium it seems that the 3B+ is a more useful choice.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on January 03, 2019, 10:24:33 PM
Agreed. But I doubt that Tuicemen can cram a 3B+ into the battery compartment of his CM15A.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on January 04, 2019, 08:13:03 AM
Agreed. But I doubt that Tuicemen can cram a 3B+ into the battery compartment of his CM15A.
even with the battery compartment completely removed only a zero or zero w will fit inside a cm15. However this isn't why the zero w was chosen for a PiX10Hub the proccessing power is more then adequate for x10 HA  and the price point makes it irresistible for DiYers to get their feet wet in the pi world.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on January 04, 2019, 08:23:34 AM
Costwise, $10 for Zero + HubPiWi-Blue, seems a perfect fit. There is the issue of configuring Raspbian to recognize it whenever Raspian is updated.

 http://referencedesigner.com/blog/updating-raspbian-to-make-hubpiwi-work/5375/ (http://referencedesigner.com/blog/updating-raspbian-to-make-hubpiwi-work/5375/)
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on January 07, 2019, 09:12:27 PM
I stumbled upon yet another variant on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raspberry-Pi-4-Port-USB-Hub-USB-to-UART-Debugging-for-Raspberry-Pi-3-Zero-W/192745065398?hash=item2ce0804bb6:g:efAAAOSw91VZyQaD:rk:7:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raspberry-Pi-4-Port-USB-Hub-USB-to-UART-Debugging-for-Raspberry-Pi-3-Zero-W/192745065398?hash=item2ce0804bb6:g:efAAAOSw91VZyQaD:rk:7:pf:0)

It connects to the USB port on the Zero or Zero W but gives 4 USB ports plus a USB-to-UART port.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: brobin on January 07, 2019, 09:29:10 PM
I like the little USB bridge connector.  Here's a US based one with bit more detail.  https://goo.gl/kGtqes
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on January 07, 2019, 09:37:11 PM
I managed to connect the CM15A USB port directly to the solder test pads using a short piece of a old PC hard drive ribbon cable.
This cleans up the look of my CM15A/pi mod and actualy frees up the OTG USB port for a keyboard/mouse though I doubt it will never get used for much unless I can get my Zwave dongle working on it.
I have ordered a add on board to use in another project for extra ports but feel my small usb hub + ethernet port may be more useful.


Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on January 07, 2019, 09:43:17 PM
I like the little USB bridge connector.  Here's a US based one with bit more detail.  https://goo.gl/kGtqes (https://goo.gl/kGtqes)
I saw same one but not from the USA. One thing is a bit confusing - the USB-to-UART apparently connects to the PI's UART - I'm not sure how useful that would be.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on January 11, 2019, 05:33:02 PM
My HubSerialixed - USB Hub + UART for Pi Zero W (http://referencedesigner.com/blog/hubserialixed-usb-hub-uart-for-pi-zero-w/6635/) board arrived yesterday and I hooked it up today.
I really only needed one more port to add a ZWave controller stick to it wouldn't work from a hub with a cm19 or Cm15 attached as well.
However this little add on board works well with both the Zwave stick and the cm19 attached.
Initial tests look promising and HG sees both the Zwave and CM19 first attempt.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: dhouston on January 12, 2019, 09:24:27 AM
Initial tests look promising and HG sees both the Zwave and CM19 first attempt.
Great! My only complaint is with the header used for the UART. I'd prefer no header so end users could add whatever is needed in their specific setup.
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on January 12, 2019, 09:38:06 AM
I suspect most here won't use the UART header anyways. I also would have preferred no header, I guess if the pins are in the way they can be removed. This has metal offsets and screws and I would have preferred nylon ones for mounting to the PI, guess I can always swap them out. ::) :'
Title: Re: Adding a onther USB port to the Pi Zero W
Post by: Tuicemen on January 17, 2019, 08:58:17 AM
The hubserialixed-usb-hub-uart-for-pi-zero-w board has actually improved my x10 control via a cm19 :o even with my Zwave Dongle plugged in as well. That is not something I could say about using a plug in  USB hub.

Using this with a Cm19 was just an experiment as I had plan to use it with a Cm15 eventually.
I doubt my Cm15 control will improve using this addon board but who knows ::) :'