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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: DCUNY on February 20, 2019, 05:24:10 PM

Title: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on February 20, 2019, 05:24:10 PM
Hello everyone,

I've gotten some great help here in the past and really appreciate it.  I'm attempting to refine my setup by replacing the TM751 (which when turning on using address A1 makes a loud click) with the PAT03 which has the switch on the front for the unit code.  My understanding is if I set the unit code to 9 then there will be no click when an A1 "on" command is sent.

For context, here is a link to my original post:
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=30389.0

I unplugged the TM751 & plugged in the PAT03 into the same outlet where the TM751 was plugged in. 

The problem is the PAT03 is not recognizing 2 of my 3 MS16A motion sensors.  It seems like if I fuss with the antenna on the PAT03 they sometimes are recognized. 
If I unplug the PAT03 and replace it with the TM751 all 3 sensors work flawlessly.  But the loud click!!!  I'm trying to get rid of the click by using the PAT03.

What am I missing here?  Is it possible I got a defective PAT03 module?  It looked like it was new out of the box but who know. 
Is there something about the PAT03 that would cause this behavior?

Should I be trying something else to eliminate the click from the transceiver? 

Thanks in advance for your help.
Denis
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: Tuicemen on February 20, 2019, 06:45:18 PM
Setting the code dial to 9 doesn't affect the clicking in the PAT 03.
Setting the dail to code 9 means the outlet on the PAT 03 responds to the house set and unit 9 not 1
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: Brian H on February 20, 2019, 07:55:43 PM
If you set the Unit code switch  to 9 on the PAT03. It will not click the outlet switch for the outlet control if the MS16A is using the default A1. If you set the Unit Code switch to 1. Then it will click the outlets switch just like the TM751 does.

If you temporarily set the PAT03 to unit code 1. Do all three MS16A sensors control the PAT03's internal switch and clunk?
It does sound like the PAT03 maybe not as sensitive to the X10 RF signals from the MS16A sensors.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on February 20, 2019, 08:36:01 PM
If you set the Unit code switch  to 9 on the PAT03. It will not click the outlet switch for the outlet control if the MS16A is using the default A1. If you set the Unit Code switch to 1. Then it will click the outlets switch just like the TM751 does.

If you temporarily set the PAT03 to unit code 1. Do all three MS16A sensors control the PAT03's internal switch and clunk?
It does sound like the PAT03 maybe not as sensitive to the X10 RF signals from the MS16A sensors.

Thanks for your response.  When I set the unit code to 1 on the PAT03 all three sensors donít switch it on.  The sensors are only about 10 feet from the PAT03 and Iím astounded it isnít working. 
I inspected the PAT03 closely and there is a piece of plastic sticking out of the case near where the antenna assmbly is located. 

Would it be better if I tried the RR501?  Maybe I have a bad PAT03...

Thanks
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: Tuicemen on February 20, 2019, 08:43:20 PM
Sorry I miss under stood the OP.
  When I set the unit code to 1 on the PAT03 all three sensors don’t switch it on.  Would it be better if I tried the RR501?  Maybe I have a bad PAT03...
I sounds like it's bad, it should have better RF then the TM751 from my understanding.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: Brian H on February 21, 2019, 06:21:14 AM
The X10 RR501 and X10Pro PAT01 are basically the same unit.
The PAT03 is sold as an improved PAT01. With a stronger power line transmitter and maybe better RF reception.
I also think you got a defective PAT03 and try getting it replaced.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on February 21, 2019, 06:58:54 AM
Thanks to both of you for your help.  I will report back after I get the PAT03 replaced.   :(

Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: bkenobi on February 21, 2019, 11:25:19 AM
If you are worried about the click when A1 is toggled because a device defaults to A1 when the battery is replaced, the easiest solution is to not use HC A...
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on February 21, 2019, 01:13:18 PM
If you are worried about the click when A1 is toggled because a device defaults to A1 when the battery is replaced, the easiest solution is to not use HC A...

Thanks for the message.  I want to be sure I understand what you are suggesting.

I'm using a 2450 I/O linc module to receive the commands from the MS16A sensors.  The I/O linc module is programmed to A1, momentary latch mode.  This triggers the device I'm trying to control using the I/O link normally open relay terminals.

The MS16A default to A1 when I have to replace the batteries. 

If I change the House Code on the TM751 to something other than A (such as B), would I need to reprogram the house code to B on the 3 MS16A sensors every time I replaced the batteries? My end goal is to avoid having to change the 2450 I/O linc and the the sensors in order to silence the clunk on the TM751 every time it receives an A1 command.

The relay on the PAT03 is much quieter even if it is set for unit code 1 on the slider switch.  I'm unclear if I change the House Code on the PAT03 to B, would that work for my setup without changing all of the sensors?  Speculation is I have a bad PAT03 because it won't recognize all of my sensors.

thx
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: brobin on February 21, 2019, 02:12:43 PM
You could leave everything as is and clip the wires to the relay coil. It doesn't sound like you're using the outlet anyway. While it costs more, the WGL V572A is an excellent transceiver worth a look. http://www.wgldesigns.com/v572.html
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: bkenobi on February 21, 2019, 02:16:16 PM
Yes, I think.  If your goal is to stop a default motion sensor from hammering on the relay eventually breaking it and immediately upsetting anyone around the simple solution is to adjust your modules to use a different house code than A.  You will have to change the unit code on your motion sensors when batteries are replaced anyway, so it will take an extra couple seconds to also change the house code.  You will need to change anything that is set to HC A if you change the modules (lights, outlets, etc) obviously.  But, that's a 1 time issue for changing the system compared to a permanent issue with clicking if motion sensor batteries are causing you headaches.

My personal solution is to not use any modules on A1.  I don't have any transceivers in use, so I don't have relays to worry about.

Oh, there is one other solution that hasn't been suggested but is certainly an option for the technically capable.  If you open the module, you could disable the relay.  That only works if you don't use the controlled outlet on the face of the transceiver though.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on February 21, 2019, 03:40:12 PM
You could leave everything as is and clip the wires to the relay coil. It doesn't sound like you're using the outlet anyway. While it costs more, the WGL V572A is an excellent transceiver worth a look. http://www.wgldesigns.com/v572.html

Great suggestion.  I've thought about doing that.  I haven't opened it up yet but I know what relays generally look like.  Sometime when I can take the system down for a while I just may look at that.....

I don't suppose anyone here has done that and could share some guidance?

thx again
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: brobin on February 21, 2019, 04:21:46 PM
Look here: http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=19861.0
and you can also do a search for 'disable tm751 relay'
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: brobin on February 21, 2019, 04:46:30 PM
...also, courtesy of the wayback machine, look at this for LOTS of info on mods to the RR501/TM751.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110223190750/http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on February 21, 2019, 05:07:35 PM
...also, courtesy of the wayback machine, look at this for LOTS of info on mods to the RR501/TM751.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110223190750/http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm

Fantastic, thank you.  I had clicked on the original link in the thread and got an invalid domain message. 

Iím sure with all of this Iíll be able to recognize and disable that relay in the TM751.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: Brian H on February 21, 2019, 06:04:55 PM
If you changed the house code on a RR501,PAT03 or TM751.
It would change the power line commands to use B. So  you would also have to reprogram the 2450 I/O Linc to respond to a command using the house code B.

The V572A does process all 256 X10 addresses [16 House Codes and 16 Unit Codes] by default. Can be programmed to ignore addresses. It does use a X10 TW523 or X10Pro PSC05 that are both discontinued for sending X10 power line commands.. The XTB-523 from JV Digital Engineering is still available and is much better. If  you had an XTB-IIR repeater it has a TW523 emulation circuit in it and is what I have interfacing my V572A.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: brobin on February 21, 2019, 06:40:17 PM
One more option... just set the slide switch to '9' on the PAT03 and A1 won't click A9 will. Unless you use A9, problem solved.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on February 21, 2019, 09:59:33 PM
One more option... just set the slide switch to '9' on the PAT03 and A1 won't click A9 will. Unless you use A9, problem solved.
Thatís what I thought when I bought the PAT03. Unfortunately it looks like the PAT03 I bought is bad.  So I need to return that for sure.  And decide if I will take a risk on another PAT03 or modify the TM751.

Iíll report back after I figure out which direction I go.

Thanks for all the help so far.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: Brian H on February 22, 2019, 06:12:34 AM
If you decide to clip the TM751's switches coil wires.
Use care when opening the case. The antenna wire connected to the RF receiver. Connects to a piece of metal foil glued to the side of the case. The external antenna has a flat round plate on its end in a slot. The capacitor formed by the internal foil and external plate. Couple the X10 RF into the TM751. I pulled the internal foil off of the case by opening it.  :'
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on February 22, 2019, 07:39:56 AM
If you decide to clip the TM751's switches coil wires.
Use care when opening the case. The antenna wire connected to the RF receiver. Connects to a piece of metal foil glued to the side of the case. The external antenna has a flat round plate on its end in a slot. The capacitor formed by the internal foil and external plate. Couple the X10 RF into the TM751. I pulled the internal foil off of the case by opening it.  :'

Great advice, thanks.  I figured the antenna might be a problem area since itís the only external part that is on the side of the device.  Most of the components stick out the back or the front & are probably connected directly to a board where they wonít move when I disassemble the casing.

Iím sure it wasnít made for ďserviceabilityĒ. 
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: brobin on February 22, 2019, 12:10:34 PM
dhouston, a frequent and valued contributor here, has the definitive info on the TM751 at https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ImproveTM751.html
His site also offers similar info of the RR501 and just about every other module.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on February 22, 2019, 01:12:11 PM
dhouston, a frequent and valued contributor here, has the definitive info on the TM751 at https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ImproveTM751.html
His site also offers similar info of the RR501 and just about every other module.

Thanks for the link.  When I click on it I'm getting error message:
"The requested URL /notavailable.png was not found on this server."

I was able to get to the page that had a lot of links on it but when I click "Improving TM751 Reception" I get the same error.  Bummer!   B:(

Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: bkenobi on February 22, 2019, 01:38:57 PM
The main page seems to be working but that specific page is broken for me too.  Maybe dhouston needs to fix a link on his site?
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: brobin on February 22, 2019, 02:08:51 PM
Odd, it was working when I posted the link 2 hours ago. Right now this one does work and is basically the same thing for the RR501:
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ImproveRR501.html
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on February 22, 2019, 02:28:05 PM
Odd, it was working when I posted the link 2 hours ago. Right now this one does work and is basically the same thing for the RR501:
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ImproveRR501.html

Well, this is interesting.  I just tried the new link above and got the same error message.  I normally use Safari on my Mac so I tried Firefox on my Mac.  Firefox for some reason works!  That is very strange.  I wonder if there is something on the page that Safari doesn't like?

Using Firefox I can open both links, Safari won't open either.

I'll take a look!  Thanks

Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: brobin on February 22, 2019, 02:31:02 PM
I use a PC and normally use Chrome but more and more I'm using Firefox as it seems to work where Chrome won't.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: dhouston on February 22, 2019, 02:56:36 PM
I retired the page a few years ago and no longer maintain it. When an attorney named David Houston down in Houston, TX bought the URL it messed up the Wayback Machine listing so Laser has been hosting it since then just to keep it available. But, I still do not maintain it.
I'm not sure what is causing the access problems for that page but I can access it under W10 via Chrome and Edge but get the same error using Firefox.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: dhouston on February 28, 2019, 10:02:44 AM
I've made no changes to the web page but now the link again works with Firefox and still works with Chrome & Edge.  ??? ...maybe some ice particles in the cloud.
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: dave w on February 28, 2019, 09:29:11 PM
...maybe some ice particles in the cloud.
rofl
Title: Re: TM751 vs PAT03. I must be missing something - weird behavior
Post by: DCUNY on March 16, 2019, 05:48:49 PM
I wanted to thank everyone for the info on the TM751 modification.  I had a block of time to focus on looking at it and was successful in disabling the relay.

The biggest challenge was not having a long / thin screwdriver to get the 2 screws out.  They were really buried in the plastic case.
Once I had it open I had no trouble figuring out what wire to cut to silence the relay.  I donít use the outlet in the TM751 so I donít care that it isnít working as a pass-through.

Thanks to everyone for the help!