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📱🖥️PiX10Hub ( Always Evolving Open Source) => 🏥Help and Trouble Shooting => 🧞HomeGenie ⛑Help => Topic started by: soxfan1966 on March 05, 2019, 06:15:42 AM

Title: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 05, 2019, 06:15:42 AM
I've got HomeGenie running on the Pi Hub for a few months now.  Everything is going good - it's proven to be more reliable than AHP, although I'm still using the additional HA-Bridge instead of the HomeGenie Alexa Integration (haven't had time to get back to that).

I'm using a variety of x10 modules, including some outdoor motion sensors.  I do not have these defined in HomeGenie and they work - well as good as they did with AHP.

Problem is the x10 motion sensors seem to sporadically not work.

Wondering what other options are available to use with HomeGenie and my x10 modules.  I read about a new Phillips Hue outdoor sensor this morning and it got me thinking there may be options available that work better than the x10 motion sensors with HomeGenie.

Thanks
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Tuicemen on March 05, 2019, 08:08:26 AM
HomeGenie has a number of different protocol options and since you use Ha-Bridge as well that allows even more.
This question would most likely get more suggestions if posted on the homegenie.club (http://homegenie.club) forum.
I do have different protocols in use here but only a few motion sensors in play all of which are x10 security motion sensors which I find to be more reliable then the standard X10 motion sensors.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 05, 2019, 11:19:58 AM
The advantage of using HG (or any other similar HA software) is that it supports a number of protocols given the right hardware.  Since you have X10, you could use any of the X10 motion sensors but, IMO, they are all junk at consistency.  I have a few installed but I absolutely hate them.  They fail if they get wet (even when silicon prevention is taken) and their range is garbage (even with the passive antenna mod).  I have not found a wireless motion sensor yet, but any protocol that HG supports will work.  I do have a wired sensors I installed long ago.  I initially interfaced using a PowerFlash module but after burning it up during a wind storm, I switched to using the RPi GPIO.  This is faster, WAY more reliable, and easily accomplished with HG.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: racerfern on March 05, 2019, 04:31:53 PM
I use the Homeseer Floodlight sensor to trigger other events, not just turn on lights. It's mains powered and has performed flawlessly outdoors. Not sure how it will be recognized by HG without the equivalent of a device handler like Samsung has.

I also just bought the Zooz outdoor motion sensor that will operate on battery or mains but again, not sure how it will work with HG. One thing for sure, a simple z-stick type controller would be easy to add to a Pi (not zero). I use a 3B+. That would open a whole new world of X10 uses.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 05, 2019, 05:03:51 PM
I was hoping someone would eventually make something like that Zooz S2 unit with a solar panel on it.  If it can last for a reasonable time with a battery, a solar cell would make it last forever.  If calculators have had them forever, why not add it to low power devices like this?
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 05, 2019, 05:59:33 PM
I think this is the one I saw this morning:

https://www2.meethue.com/en-us/p/hue-outdoor-sensor/046677541736#

Since it connects to the Hue Bridge it would work for HomeGenie?

Does this look better / more reliable than the x10 units?
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 05, 2019, 06:09:43 PM
Are the x10 MS10A the security motion sensors? 
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 05, 2019, 06:15:38 PM
I believe so.  Since I wouldn't call x10 motion sensors high quality, I don't know how to answer that question. They are not water resistant let alone water proof therefor are not outdoor units. I have 2 installed under cover that are working fine, but transmit range is poor, detection range and angle is poor, and there is no mount available (so it mounts flush to surface unless you mfg something). They used to cost $5 which was worth it IMO. Now that they are $30+, they are a poor choice for me.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: racerfern on March 05, 2019, 06:20:19 PM
Quote
I was hoping someone would eventually make something like that Zooz S2 unit with a solar panel on it.

There are a bunch of very small solar chargers, but not all that cheap. You would just need a rechargeable battery rather than a conventional battery. However with the Zooz running on mains, it's probably cheaper to run a micro usb to the sensor from the nearest power supply.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Brian H on March 06, 2019, 06:28:28 AM
Are the x10 MS10A the security motion sensors?

The MS10A is the older Security Motion Sensor. The presently sold one is a MS18A.
The DS10A was the old Security Door-Window Sensor. The presently sold one is a DS12A.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 06, 2019, 07:59:56 AM
Can the MS18A be used outside?  I don't see it mentioned as possible or not in the doc.  And will it work with a regular x10 receiver or does it require a security specific one (from reading about the MS10A it sounded like the security motion sensors used different receivers than the regular x10 ones)
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Tuicemen on March 06, 2019, 09:21:57 AM
Currently Authinx has no X10 motions sensors rated for outdoor use.
However if well protected from the elements most will perform there.
I have a MS10A that has been outside for several years but it is under a overhang so it is protected from the elements.
The security sensors send different RF codes then the standard X10 ones however the CM19 and Cm15 can see these as can HG.

Ha-Bridge being actively developed would more then likely Hue sensors. The Philps Hue Program in HG was designed to work with a Hue Hub however it will also see and work with HA-Bridge provided you don't have security enabled in HA-Bridge.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: HA Dave on March 06, 2019, 12:54:49 PM
I remember... knightrider once gave directions on converting regular motion sensing floodlights to exploit an X10 universal module so as to get a similar response as a X10 floodlight. However.... I did a search with no productive results. But as I remember... the mod required a "RadioShack" relay as well as the X10 universal module. So.....

But there should be a way... a modification of some sort that would allow/cause a common floodlight to trigger a PLC (or maybe even RF). Or maybe we should be looking at a more modern "camera motion detection" product that can be integrated into our Home Automation systems.   

Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 06, 2019, 01:15:56 PM
Hmm, are you suggesting having security cameras identified in HG that have motion sensing ability used to trigger x10 modules?

If so I'd be interested.  I just started getting some IP cameras to replace x10 ones but have not had luck getting one to appear in HG yet.  If I could get that to work then that may fill the need I have (two birds, one stone approach)
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: HA Dave on March 06, 2019, 02:58:42 PM
Hmm, are you suggesting having security cameras identified in HG that have motion sensing ability used to trigger x10 modules?....

Yes... although not directly. The standard DVR HD recorders with Internet connectivity has pixel based motion detection with alarm abilities. The PSC01 Powerflash should work (I know.... I incorrectly posted Universal module... my bad, sorry).

But maybe.... instead of converting back to old standards.... why not use the motion detecting cameras (like Ring brand) as they were intended. Maybe find one that will co-operate with a known Hub (like zwave or smartthings…. or directly with Alexa) and just re-imagine how automation gets done. At one time.... the old motion detecting X10 floodlight was at the heart of my home security. But that was a LONG time ago. I don't feel compelled to recreate old ideas.... just because "that's how it used to be done."

Modifications and work arounds.... were at one time a big part of X10 use. And with the X10 Pi... I see that attitude of alter and change to make it work continue.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Tuicemen on March 06, 2019, 04:16:20 PM
I have several IP cameras now all have motion sensing ability, however none of them are reliable enough for me.
The most reliable camera I had/have for that is a Kinects not only will it detect motion but detects people standing or sitting.
My brother-in-law had a ring IP camera setup for motion and got more false alarms then not.

Quote
Modifications and work arounds.... were at one time a big part of X10 use. And with the X10 Pi... I see that attitude of alter and change to make it work continue
That is still a big part of any HA setup not only X10. The PiX10Hub allows you to integrate many different protocols and for them to talk to each other. I've been playing with WeMo devices which use to have sensors and HG. Since Belkin no longer makes a motion sensor one would have to create a workaround and change things to have another protocol sensor work with them. Either that or find a old sensor on ebay. Gone are the days of good one protocol HA setups.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 06, 2019, 05:02:37 PM
I don't consider combining systems a workaround as much as finding a solution. X10 has some good modules. They don't have a good motion sensor. Other systems have good motion sensors but don't work with X10 directly. Using a hub to use both is a design design desicionthat is perfectly valid. Reimagining a lighting arrangement from using x10 to using Alexa is just throwing working modules out because they aren't shiny anymore.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: HA Dave on March 06, 2019, 11:26:48 PM
I have several IP cameras now all have motion sensing ability, however none of them are reliable enough for me...…….  My brother-in-law had a ring IP camera setup for motion and got more false alarms then not.

Yeah.... my X10 floodlight wasn't reliable either... TONS of false alarms mostly caused by small critters. Maybe.... a motion sensor/camera detection conditional macro like setup could increase reliability? Just thinking and typing out loud. This topic is timely for me

Gone are the days of good one protocol HA setups.

I've never felt compelled to limit my solutions to any one brand or idea.

….. Reimagining a lighting arrangement from using x10 to using Alexa is just throwing working modules out because they aren't shiny anymore.

It's still rare that anyone suggests pitching X10... to convert to another protocol. But... there are those that are vanilla ice cream only types. People who want a all-in-one solution as if that somehow simplifies things. What they are really doing... is limiting their automation... in their effort to simplify.

Lighting... is only a small part of my Home Automation.... which includes security, information, convenience, and entertainment... as well as lighting. I'd guess the biggest part of my automation use would fall under "security", with lighting control being (a guess) about 25% of my automation. With X10 still handling about 2/3's of my lighting control. And every bit of my automation integrates through both my iPhone AND Amazons Alexa. 
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 07, 2019, 09:11:39 PM
So I got my 2 new IP cameras and have then running but cannot get them recognized in HG using the Generic IP camera program.

I enter the IP address, user name and password but it never connects. There is an Android app that connects and works just fine.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 07, 2019, 09:46:27 PM
There's nothing wrong with asking about your IP cameras interfacing with HG here, but you will get better answers if you go to the HG forum or the github page. Both of those places are where the HG experts and authors go to ask/answer questions about HG.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Tuicemen on March 08, 2019, 06:52:10 AM
Each IP camera manufacture uses a different connection string for their cameras and HD ones are different then Mjpeg ones.
You need to specify make and model your trying in order to get the proper connection string. the camera documentation usually includes this or can be found on their web page.
The sample cameras I included in the image are for 2 Airsight models and Foscam all connection strings are different.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Tuicemen on March 08, 2019, 08:18:04 AM
petera posted this during the beta tests of the PiX10Hub you may find it helpful  ;) :
Quote
Before adding http camera links in HG camera widgets just try them first in a standard web browser. If they work there they'll work in HG. Here's a typical call to a Foscam camera. Adjust the settings as you need to

http://[IPAddress]/cgi-bin/CGIProxy.fcgi?cmd=snapPicture2&usr=[Username]&pwd=[Password]

I've tested most camera types in HG and they all seem to work...…
….Ps this link gives you every conceivable URL for nearly all the cameras known to mankind   https://www.ispyconnect.com/man.aspx?n=Generic

Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 08, 2019, 08:29:14 AM
Ok thank you.  I'm away for a few days now but next chance I get I will try.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 13, 2019, 09:31:27 AM
Good morning.   Tried playing around with this today.

Using the https://www.ispyconnect.com site and my camera types I was able to get two of them to work.  Still trying the other one (different brand).  Thanks
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Tuicemen on March 13, 2019, 12:38:55 PM
Glad to see your making progress.
Perhaps you can post what cameras your able to get setup with HG so others may feel confident about using HG to monitor those.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 15, 2019, 11:45:44 AM
Good afternoon all.

OK, here's what I got.  I have 2 CamHi outdoor IP cameras setup and working and added to HomeGenie using the tool here:  https://www.ispyconnect.com/sources.aspx

I also have 1 indoor bullet cam that is a ICSee (or I Can See) model.  That one is connected in HomeGenie, but all I get is an empty jpeg image (which is the same thing I get using the same ip address in the browser from using the ispyconnect tool)

However, even if I use the option for the ip address in HomeGenie with the username and password (it gets generated for you) and / or if I use the separate User Password field in the camera setup, nothing shows up unless I first open a separate browser window and then login to the camera with the username and password.  Then the images show up - sometimes.  Not really sure what the deal is.

Also, one of the cameras appears in the android app (but with no image) and I cannot seem to get the second one to appear as a device in the android app - not entirely sure how I am supposed to synch up the android app with the info from the PiHub.

I attached 2 images - one that shows what the cameras show with no image, and then ones with an image:

Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Tuicemen on March 24, 2019, 08:20:29 AM
I couldn't get the authorization to work in the HG Generic Camera app.
However if you enter the username and password in as part of the Ip it connects so you might try that.
USERNAME:PASSWORD@YOUR_CAMERA_IP
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 24, 2019, 10:19:47 AM
Is there a way to get the generic IP cameras to trigger another event when it senses motion?
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Tuicemen on March 24, 2019, 10:43:47 AM
I've not even attempted to try that! I get far to many false emails from my camera on motion if setup so for me it is not even worth trying.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: bkenobi on March 24, 2019, 02:29:03 PM
I don't have any cameras set up, but HG will require a trigger to do anything. Alternately, if the camera can perform an action on motion detection then you can use HG's API interface to trigger the event from the camera.  If the camera doesn't have a way to detect motion, you will need a software that can since HG does not have any component for this.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 24, 2019, 08:33:05 PM
So the cameras have the ability to trigger an action on the camera - alert notification, email a pic, take a video snippet.

What I'd like is for HG to recognize that and turn on anexterior light via x10.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Tuicemen on March 24, 2019, 08:41:29 PM
What you'd have to do is have HG watch your email inbox for one from the camera and if seen trigger a light on.
The issue would be if all cameras send the same email notification. Either the subject or message would need to be unique.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 24, 2019, 09:22:04 PM
Subject is different per camera, so he could I have HG monitor my email for a specific subject line ?  I'd be willing to test, would be curious on the time it would take to have the camera send the email, have HG recognize it, and then trigger the x10 light.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: Tuicemen on March 24, 2019, 09:33:31 PM
It certainly would be possible to code such a program, however there may already be something like that created.
You may have to do some digging into the old HG forum and the repository.
I believe bkenobi may have had something to watch emails. If not I think I had something coded in one of my old programs which I may be able to convert to C# for HG
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on March 31, 2019, 07:44:16 PM
All righty - back to this effort now.

So my wife is pretty much annoyed with the results of the x10 sensors outside to trigger the back deck light.

So I am hopping I can get the IP Camera to be used as a trigger.  I did not try the email approach yet because I am worried the time it will take to get the email, have HG process it and then trigger the light to come on will take too long.

So I am trying this - I created a Program using the Sensor in HG tied to my IP Camera as follows:

(http://)
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 01, 2019, 12:27:20 PM
Unless you have the sensor/IP camera tied directly to your HG script, you will have a delay.  The delay will depend on the method used, but I have found that the quickest way to trigger a motion sensor is to have it hooked up the the RPi GPIO directly.  X10 RF is fairly quick, but it isn't 100% received (which is why it sends several times).  If it misses the transmit, you will have to stand still for a few seconds and then move again for the module to send the motion signal again.  If the IP camera is cloud based, the time it takes for upload to the cloud and then notify HG may be a few seconds too.  If it notifies HG directly, it will probably be fairly quick so long as the code in HG is set up correctly.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on April 01, 2019, 12:30:28 PM
I'm not sure how I would do this:
the quickest way to trigger a motion sensor is to have it hooked up the the RPi GPIO directly.

But you are correct in that a delay makes it not do what I needit to do, so the fastest way to get it to trigger is what I'm trying to achieve.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 01, 2019, 04:37:43 PM
Hooking into the GPIO would be the absolute fastest way, but that doesn't mean other ways aren't acceptable.  In my case since I use X10 lights activated by the motion sensor, I still have ~0.5s delay no matter what.  I used to utilize a Power Flash module to do the same thing.  Although the delay was then closer to 1s, I found it acceptable.  I have some motion sensor lights on my shop that are very fast (damn near instant most of the time).  However, even these don't detect on the first motion sometimes and therefor are up to 2-5 seconds to trigger when I'm walking right under them.  Basically, even commercial, hard wired motion sensing lights aren't always instantaneous.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on April 01, 2019, 06:19:44 PM
Could you please explain more about "Hooking into the GPIO" - what does that mean, and how do you do it?
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 02, 2019, 05:33:40 PM
HG has an APP for using the GPIO's.  Turn it on and follow the instructions for setting up the desired GPIO.  I don't remember which ones it uses, but I think it's 4, 23-25 or something.  Read the RPi guide on GPIO for a primer.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/usage/gpio/

Once you have something hooked up to the RPi's GPIO, you will need to set that device up as a sensor.  If you add that module to your dashboard you can see it change states when you toggle the GPIO to ground.  If that works, set up some logic to use it how you want.
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on April 05, 2019, 06:47:50 AM
Thank you for the info, I appreciate it.  For what I am trying to accomplish in this case that is outside the scope of what I want to do.  But I read thru the info in the link and at least now I understand what GPIO is :)
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: soxfan1966 on April 12, 2019, 10:42:04 AM
Just an update - since relocating my PiX10Hub upstairs the outdoor sensor for my back deck steps has been better.  I am going to continue to monitor it and go from there.  Thanks
Title: Re: Outdoor sensors
Post by: bkenobi on April 12, 2019, 11:07:34 AM
The location of the transmitter (motion sensor) and receiver (CM15A) are critical in performance of the system.  The passive antenna mods do work quite well.  I know they look like one of those magic hoax devices to improve your internet speed on your phone, but there is math behind them and it actually does work.  I added a 1/2 wave passive antenna (18" wire) behind one of my MS16A sensors and went from terrible performance to very good.  It's not perfect, but it triggers 90-95% of the time which is acceptable for my wood shed.  It would not be good enough for my entry lights.  To be fair, the majority of the improvement in my RF was based on the RadioShack antenna installed high in the attic and in-line amplifier I added to my CM15A.  Without it I could use my HR12A in some of the house.  With it, I can be over 100 feet away from the house in the woods and turn on my back yard lighting.  Even the key chain remotes work at very good range.