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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: CCinPA on March 29, 2020, 07:18:01 PM

Title: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on March 29, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
What hand-held(key-fob?) device(s) can I use  to control a Lamp-Module?

PS: How do I insert a picture from my desktop?
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: HA Dave on March 29, 2020, 11:29:14 PM
What hand-held(key-fob?) device(s) can I use  to control a Lamp-Module?

Everything you need to control a lamp with a keychain remote.    https://www.x10.com/packaged-deals/home-automation/kitwirelesskr19a.html (https://www.x10.com/packaged-deals/home-automation/kitwirelesskr19a.html)
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Brian H on March 30, 2020, 06:25:25 AM
The X10 kit has all you would need.
The key-fob, the RF transceiver to convert the remotes X10 RF signal to the power line and the lamp module itself.
Even if you have a lamp module now. You may find the kit price is less than the individual item themselves.

Your status here is newbie. There are some restrictions to what you can post.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Tuicemen on March 30, 2020, 08:40:31 AM
PS: How do I insert a picture from my desktop?
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=10516.msg60285#msg60285
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on March 30, 2020, 08:43:10 AM
Thanks folks!  Looking at the link now. 
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 06, 2020, 09:45:27 AM
Kit received.  Kit installed.  Set-up transceiver with two lamp-modules connected.  Each lamp-module is 20 feet line-of-site to the transceiver. 

But, I have to get 10-feet line-of-site with the fob to activate the transceiver/lamp-modules. 

Is this normal?  If not, what might be wrong?

Thanks.     
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Tuicemen on April 06, 2020, 11:12:04 AM
There are lots of things that can affect a RF  signal cordless 2ghz phones, micro waves large metal objects (fridges) even your wifi router.  Id try moving your transceiver to a differentvlocation it doesn't need a clear l8ne of sight ot the modules. I'd also try a new battery in the flob.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 06, 2020, 11:24:48 AM
Just curious... Are there any other hand-held devices that are compatible? 
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: brobin on April 06, 2020, 12:53:58 PM
The HR12A Palm Pad may have better range. Be sure the antenna on the transceiver is fully extended and plug the unit in at a location close to where you typically use the remote.  As Mr. T said, you don't need to be concerned about placement of the transceiver relative to the lamp modules as those are controlled through the powerline rather than RF.   Also, the SR751 RF Range extender may be helpful in expanding RF coverage.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Tuicemen on April 06, 2020, 02:40:34 PM
Just curious... Are there any other hand-held devices that are compatible?
I personally  don't  like the key flobs but the kr22 does seem to have been improved with a better transmitter https://www.x10.com/x10-home-automation/kr22a.html. The HR12A is my preferred remote. https://www.x10.com/hr12a.html
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 06, 2020, 07:33:48 PM
Again... Thanks for education.  New battery in remote.  I suppose it never occurred to me that 15-feet line-of-site between the fob and transceiver would have so many reasons for not working better.   
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: dave w on April 07, 2020, 01:32:09 PM
I suppose it never occurred to me that 15-feet line-of-site between the fob and transceiver would have so many reasons for not working better.   
Well there is also the thick air reason.  rofl

Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: dhouston on April 07, 2020, 04:12:43 PM
What transceiver are you using?
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 07, 2020, 05:45:02 PM
This is my set-up:

https://www.x10.com/packaged-deals/home-automation/kitwirelesskr19a.html
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: dhouston on April 07, 2020, 08:23:22 PM
Newer versions of the TM751 use a superheterodyne RF receiver which has a fairly narrow bandwidth and may or may not be accurately tuned to 310MHz. The KR19A may also not be accurately tuned to 310MHz. This could explain the short RF range.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 07, 2020, 08:29:26 PM
Newer versions of the TM751 use a superheterodyne RF receiver which has a fairly narrow bandwidth and may or may not be accurately tuned to 310MHz. The KR19A may also not be accurately tuned to 310MHz. This could explain the short RF range.

What unit(s) would you suggest?
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: dhouston on April 07, 2020, 08:50:11 PM
What unit(s) would you suggest?
How much range do you need?
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 07, 2020, 09:20:42 PM
The two Lamp-modules are 30-feet, thru a cinder-block-wall, from where I want to use the key-fob(?)/transmitter.  The transceiver is located outside(under-porch); Just on the other side of a cinder-block wall from the lamp-modules. And as I stated... To activate I have to be 10-feet from the outdoor transceiver to activate the lamp-modules located just inside the basement cinder-block wall.  Does this help?     
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: bkenobi on April 08, 2020, 02:19:19 AM
With a antenna modded cm15a coupled to a RadioShack antenna in the attic and a signal booster, I can send on/off commands from my hr12a remotes from the woods 300ft from my house.  I can go farther, but that's more than enough for most people.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Brian H on April 08, 2020, 06:40:15 AM
Is the 10 feet distance. With you on the other side of the cinder block wall from the TM751 or 10 feet from the TM751 on the same side as the cinder block wall?
The cinder block wall could be reducing the distance if you are sending the X10 RF commands through it. Especially if there is any metal reinforcement in the wall.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Tuicemen on April 08, 2020, 07:27:06 AM
Ground height of the transceiver  realy does make a difference as well. The higher the antenna  is off the ground the further your range will be generally. >!
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: dhouston on April 08, 2020, 07:53:17 AM
Typically, the maximum reliable range of X10 RF transmitters is 25-30 feet. While I don't recall range testing the KR19A I suspect its range is less than typical. With the distance between the transmitter (i.e. your handheld KR19A) and the transceiver (i.e. your TM751) at 30 feet it's not surprising that you have problems.

The KR22A mentioned by tuicemen earlier in the thread might perform better but I have no hands on (pun intended) experience with it. X10 does claim it has 100 feet range.

It is possible to modify a TM751 to improve RF range but this is not a simple modification and is only recommended for those with electronics/electrical knowledge/experience.
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ImproveTM751.html (https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ImproveTM751.html)
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 08, 2020, 08:14:26 AM
PS: How do I insert a picture from my desktop?
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=10516.msg60285#msg60285

I tried these instructions... But it seems I don't have the permission to do so. 
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 08, 2020, 08:19:55 AM
I have such a nice picture to post... But can't.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 08, 2020, 08:31:09 AM
The KR22A mentioned by tuicemen earlier in the thread might perform better but I have no hands on (pun intended) experience with it. X10 does claim it has 100 feet range.


I believe this is the transmitter I am using... ?
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 08, 2020, 08:44:45 AM
LAMP-MODULE >>> 10-FEET >>> CINDER-BLOCK-WALL >>> 10-FEET >>> TRANSCEIVER(OUTDOOR) >>> 20-FEET-LINE-OF-SITE >>> TRANSMITTER
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: dave w on April 08, 2020, 09:15:39 AM
The KR22A mentioned by tuicemen earlier in the thread might perform better …

I believe this is the transmitter I am using... ?

https://www.x10.com/kr22a.html
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: dhouston on April 08, 2020, 09:22:03 AM
LAMP-MODULE >>> 10-FEET >>> CINDER-BLOCK-WALL >>> 10-FEET >>> TRANSCEIVER(OUTDOOR) >>> 20-FEET-LINE-OF-SITE >>> TRANSMITTER

20 feet through a wall puts it at the typical limits for the keyfob you are using.

You might try eliminating the appliance module and moving the TM751 to that outlet with the lights connected to the TM751 outlet. This would eliminate the wall and reduce the range to 10 feet.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: dave w on April 08, 2020, 09:29:03 AM
LAMP-MODULE >>> 10-FEET >>> CINDER-BLOCK-WALL >>> 10-FEET >>> TRANSCEIVER(OUTDOOR) >>> 20-FEET-LINE-OF-SITE >>> TRANSMITTER
So the transceiver is outdoors, your key fob is only used outdoors also. You use the fob to turn on inside lights as you approach house(?).
I think you said the transceiver is under the porch, so must be near to ground. Can you elevate the transceiver? Can you test by putting transceiver on an extension cord and get it out from under porch and a few feet off the ground? I realize this isn't the way it can stay, but is a test.
Also is there an outlet on the inside wall of the porch? If so, can the TM751 go there?
If someone else already went down this road, my apologies, I just woke up.  ;)
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Tuicemen on April 08, 2020, 10:54:12 AM
PS: How do I insert a picture from my desktop?
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=10516.msg60285#msg60285

I tried these instructions... But it seems I don't have the permission to do so.
Newbies are restricted from adding attachments, since your status is now Jr. Member you should be able to post attachments ( pictures)
The KR22A mentioned by tuicemen earlier in the thread might perform better but I have no hands on (pun intended) experience with it. X10 does claim it has 100 feet range.


I believe this is the transmitter I am using... ?
  the kr22a is a credit card style remote  and can control 4 x10 sequential addressed devices. I did manage to test one of these newer built fobs  and was able to get close to 100 ft  range however this was with my transciever located high in the house with no metal objects between.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 08, 2020, 06:44:32 PM
Update: I gathered up your suggestions; Planning to work on them today. 
Then, a friend reminded me that I have a box of X-10 stuff from one of my house-moves... He was correct. 
In the box I found two Power-house RR501 transceivers.  I decided to eliminate/isolate.  I hope I did not over-simplify this...
I plugged the RR501 and the TM51 into an outlet in my garage.
Bottom-line… Neither unit would activate after moving 10-feet from them.  It seems to me the common-denominator is the KR19A transmitter?  Checked the new battery again…Fully charged.   
 The HR12A PalmPad Remote Control is a bit large/clumsy.  Are there any other transmitters other than the HR12A and the KR19A?
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: dhouston on April 08, 2020, 08:51:54 PM
Are there any other transmitters other than the HR12A and the KR19A?
KR22A

Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: CCinPA on April 08, 2020, 09:38:12 PM
i need a nap... The kr22a is the transmitter I think might be the culprit. 
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Brian H on April 09, 2020, 06:17:42 AM
The RR501 and TM751 are both X10 RF to power line transceivers. You should not have both of them on the same circuit at the same time.
The TM751 is not polite and will step on any other X10 signals on the power lines. As it has no power line receiver.
The RR501 also has a power line receiver in it and in theory should wait until the TM751 has completed its commands.

Will the KR19A turn the RR501's or TM751's internal relay on and off directly? If you are directly near it and not through the cinder block wall?
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Tuicemen on April 09, 2020, 08:04:14 AM
 The KR19A (https://www.x10.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/k/r/kr19a_1.jpg) 
I prefered over the KR22A as far as flobs were concerned. There is a security flob which I believe only works with the X10 security consoles
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Tuicemen on April 09, 2020, 08:13:09 AM
I did  a passive antenna mod on a KR22A credi card flob once and was able to improve its transmit range however it also made it very directional.  You could try a pasive antenna  mod on the transceiver as well.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: brobin on April 09, 2020, 11:12:17 AM
Plug one transceiver into an indoor outlet close to wherever you typically use the remote - same room is best.  Now plug the various lights into modules without regard to distance from the remote.  The modules do NOT receive RF signals from the remote so RF range is not an issue. The transceiver receives the the RF from the remote and the transmits the X10 signals (hence the term transceiver) out on the powerline to the modules throughout the house.  The only RF range that matters is the distance between the remote and the transceiver.
Title: Success!
Post by: CCinPA on April 09, 2020, 02:45:36 PM
Success!

I dug thru my box of X-10 goodies and found a "X-10 Wireless Key Chain Remote Control KC674".

Works like a charm in the original layout. 

Couldn't have done it without all your help! 

Thanks!
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Tuicemen on April 10, 2020, 07:50:07 AM
Glad you found an old flob that works.
Many times newer isn't better.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Brian H on April 10, 2020, 11:24:26 AM
Thanks for the update and happy it is now working.
The KC674 may have a stronger RF output or antenna orientation.
I vaguely remember having one of that model but it is not on my list of modules I own.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: bkenobi on April 10, 2020, 05:13:16 PM
I have one of those in a box I picked up a few years back from someone.  I never considered using that since it's about as big as old school garage door openers, but then if it has a larger antenna that might explain the size.   rofl
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: Brian H on April 10, 2020, 06:44:56 PM
It also has a House Code Dial and slide switch Unit Codes 1-2 or 5-6.
Not programmed with the button and LED flashing sequences.
Title: Re: What hand-held(key-fob?) to control a Lamp-Module?
Post by: dave w on April 11, 2020, 09:30:38 AM
I have one of those in a box I picked up a few years back from someone.  I never considered using that since it's about as big as old school garage door openers, but then if it has a larger antenna that might explain the size.   rofl
The two AA batts can probably dump more current that the lithium coin cells also. Like Tuicemen said ….newer ain't always better. He has better grammar.