X10 Community Forum

📱🖥️PiX10Hub => 💬General Discussion => Topic started by: Tuicemen on December 30, 2020, 10:25:15 AM

Title: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on December 30, 2020, 10:25:15 AM
It has been a couple years now since this was released and I'm wondering was the effort the small group of testers and myself put into it?
Some of the testers only wished this to be a way to hook users into using HG others away to use Alexa while others wanted a good alternative to the WM100 or AHP.
 There are many in the community (I'm sure that think) using a Raspberry Pi can't handle Home Automation however it can do much more then a PC on any flavor of OS.

Looking at the number of members posted to the PiX10Hub section it would appear there are only a few using raspberry pi boards or even this project.
Has this lived up to all the prerelease Hype?
Are you still struggling with using a PI and the Raspberry Pi OS?
Your input (even if just a vote) can help others to decide if this is worth even trying.
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: SkipWX10 on December 30, 2020, 01:29:13 PM
I voted for 'not for me'. Reason being is my setup (lighting, motion triggers, and simple stuff) is easily handled by AHP and I even use the WM100 by phone sometimes.
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: brobin on December 30, 2020, 01:34:52 PM
I voted 'not for me' as well only because I already have a Stargate controller and only needed something to bring Alexa to the party.  For somebody who likes to tinker "under the hood" the PiX10Hub a great option.
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: petera on December 30, 2020, 10:20:55 PM
Not for me but for different reasons than above. HG is so simple to install and keep updated there’s no need for an image of someone else’s install. I’ve posted a number of simple copy/paste instructions starting wit a Raspberry Pi board and a blank SD card to the final installation of HG even a chimp could succeed with this task. There’s no need for any other clutterware on the SD card. If people want Alexa functionality, buy a cheap smart hub and interface it with HG.

For those who still use AHP and I imagine there are many, HG is way beyond what AHP could ever do. The main purpose of any alternative is to keep things as simple as possible.

I imagine anyone hungry enough to make a few dollars I suppose you could sell on a Raspberry Pi kit with a modest mark up with a pre installed version of HG. This would require that the user connect locally with keyboard, mouse. monitor and wired Ethernet connection. A real plug’n’go solution with a basic “how to” file included on the SD card. Now why didn’t I think of that when this all started out  rofl :)%
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on December 31, 2020, 07:06:33 AM
The current image is a vanilla install of Buster lite with a script similar to your copy/paste instructions to do a vanilla install of HG.
It does include a vanilla install of HA-Bridge and the Raspbian file manager Midnight commander both installed via the same script which I believe I included as options.
So in reality it isn't a image of someone else’s install like the original first Stretch version that we all worked on was.

Quote
Now why didn’t I think of that when this all started out  rofl :)%
I believe you did!(or someone brought it up)  rofl
l believe it was even discussed to sell SD cards preloaded with the OS, HG & Ha-Bridge. It's just no one in the beta group wanted the hassle.  >!
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: brobin on December 31, 2020, 09:17:05 AM
There are people doing just that on ebay with SD cards (~$20) and finished product (~$110) for a Pi-Hole.  I don't think anybody's getting rich off it though.
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: petera on December 31, 2020, 10:00:26 AM
There are people doing just that on ebay with SD cards (~$20) and finished product (~$110) for a Pi-Hole.  I don't think anybody's getting rich off it though.

Home Assistant are doing it with Blue. Crazy but they can’t keep up with orders. So simple to create yourself as a DIY project by sourcing parts yourself. An eye for a quick buck I reckon https://www.home-assistant.io/blue/
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: brobin on December 31, 2020, 10:50:18 AM
Not so crazy. You and I and most of the folks on this forum are very different from most of the world in that we actually know which end of the soldering iron not to touch.  When you mention technology, wires or programming to most people they just glaze over and run away.  They will only engage if the task is non-threatening and extremely simple.  Amazon has done a brilliant job in making their Alexa ecosystem simple to install and use.  Even so, my friend who's a brilliant trauma doctor and can reassemble someone who's body has been mangled in a crash, had to call me to help him install his Ring cameras.  He thinks what I do is black magic and harder than what he does!

Apple's success is based on simplicity too.  That Home Assistant is doing the same is to their credit as people don't mind paying extra for simple.  As I get older I have more appreciation for simple myself. 
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: bkenobi on December 31, 2020, 12:28:00 PM
pple's success is based on simplicity too.

Incorrect.  Apple and now Amazon have made their success on branding.  There is nothing wrong with their product lineup, but it's certainly designed for those who don't want to understand what's going on behind the curtain.  The target audience is those who have seen people use their phones to do "automation" and want someone to give them a plugin device to replicate that.  Again, nothing wrong with that, but certainly not the audience that would care about HG or really X10 for that matter.
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: brobin on December 31, 2020, 02:45:24 PM
pple's success is based on simplicity too.

Incorrect.  Apple and now Amazon have made their success on branding.  There is nothing wrong with their product lineup, but it's certainly designed for those who don't want to understand what's going on behind the curtain.  The target audience is those who have seen people use their phones to do "automation" and want someone to give them a plugin device to replicate that.  Again, nothing wrong with that, but certainly not the audience that would care about HG or really X10 for that matter.

Branding is important but my point, as you seem to agree, is that people want simple.  Home Assistant's effort to do that is an 'Apple/Amazon' like effort to bring their product to a wider audience who, as you say, "don't want to understand what's going on behind the curtain."
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: dkbialik on January 05, 2021, 10:00:59 AM
I am using the Buster image.  It works.  The integration with HA- Bridge and Alexa is not the greatest.  Alexa does not always recognize and I had to wait a day before recognition and it was not correct.  I had to edit in Alexa to coordinate the devices.  I do not beleive the issue is with Tuiciman but more with HA-Bridge.  My biggest fear is a prolonged outage, then Alexa loses connection and you have to rebuild HA-Bridge.  the backup for HomeGenie is good, the HA-Bridge backup is not good for restore.
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 05, 2021, 11:10:35 AM
The HA-Bridge backup restore does need some work, but it is better then it was.
I suggested backing up and restoring from a PC, however only the restore from PC part was added.
https://github.com/bwssytems/ha-bridge/issues/1033
 I'd suggest using a program like Filezilla to grab the back up files or copies of them from the PI and place them in a folder on your PC,
or do it how BWSystems describes in the above link.
The last time I had to do a HA-Bridge restore was in 2018 prior the the new method and it was a chore.

There is currently a RC build of HA-Bridge being tested which may help with response issues but I've not tested it.
 I don't believe the Alexa issue is as much a HA-Bridge issue as an Amazon one. My Alexa control works flawless unless I have a power outage then the first attempt to turn something on or off I get the message that the device wasn't responding but did.
If I say yes it did Alexa responds OK and I never have a issue again till next power outage. (or maybe it is Internet outage) ::) :'


Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: brobin on January 05, 2021, 11:40:23 AM
I am using the Buster image.  It works.  The integration with HA- Bridge and Alexa is not the greatest.  Alexa does not always recognize and I had to wait a day before recognition and it was not correct.  I had to edit in Alexa to coordinate the devices.  I do not beleive the issue is with Tuiciman but more with HA-Bridge.  My biggest fear is a prolonged outage, then Alexa loses connection and you have to rebuild HA-Bridge.  the backup for HomeGenie is good, the HA-Bridge backup is not good for restore.

This is where a dedicated Alexa-to-X10 bridge with a supported Alexa skill is a worthwhile addition.  https://smartenit.com/product/harmony-p2/  (P2 device and PLM bundle for $59.99)
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 05, 2021, 01:25:57 PM
I just checked the current HA-Bridge and it is sitting at 5.4.0 so the RC build is now a full release.
I've just updated to this and had no issues with my current settings or Alexa using these commands from the command line.
Code: [Select]
sudo cd ha-bridge
wget https://github.com/bwssytems/ha-bridge/releases/download/v5.4.0/ha-bridge-5.4.0.jar
sudo systemctl stop ha-bridge
sudo mv ha-bridge.jar ha-bridge_old.jar
mv ha-bridge-5.4.0.jar ha-bridge.jar
sudo systemctl start ha-bridge


Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 06, 2021, 09:13:15 AM
Just under half the input thus far is that using a pi is not for them. So I'm wondering why? Would the PIX10Hub being offered on a SD card realy make it more attractive to try? And if so what $ figure.

I also notice someone wanted more added. It easy easy to add other options to the image in the install script with the option to install or not. A custom HA-Bridge or HomeGenie install option not so much. Since the user didn't explain what else they'd like to see (maybe for fear of being branded lazy) please PM me your thoughts.
Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: brobin on January 06, 2021, 11:32:40 AM
IMHO, I think it's fair to say that most X10 users are, at this point, an older group (myself included) looking to keep things simple.  Unless whatever controllers we've used for the last umpteen years become troublesome there's little motivation to change.  My Stargate still soldiers on after 25 years with little maintenance and others are probably still mostly satisfied with what they're using.  The only thing missing for me was Alexa control which is what brought me back to this forum several years ago (thank you T!).  If my Stargate (and multiple spares) were no longer functional then delving into HG would be more attractive.

That said, if I were looking at a new controller, I'd want to spend my time building out the schedule and getting it operational rather than gathering and assembling the hardware and software components and I'd want minimal maintenance after that.  In short, I'd probably want a packaged product ready to go rather than a 'roll my own' option.  Of course, the field for that is limited for ones that still support X10 but there are at least a few left like Universal Devices, Smartenit, Home Seer and HA all of which are reasonably priced.  I'm not opposed to 'rolling my own' if that's the only way to get what I want, but it's not my first choice.

So, having taken the longwinded way to answering your question, I think offering a ready to go SD card would be helpful and you'd sell a few at $20-30, but it'd be even more attractive packaged with the hardware.  In essence, this is exactly what Home Seer, Smartenit and now HA are doing, all providing a cased Pi or similar with software loaded and ready to go with supported Alexa/GH integration.

Regarding pricing, for comparison there are ebay sellers offering Pi-Hole AD cards for $20 and loaded on a Pi4b for $110.

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: bkenobi on January 06, 2021, 11:58:34 AM
The primary difference between HG and the other systems that are X10 compatible is the library used to implement X10. In every instance outside of HG, the MOCHAD library is used. While it is very capable for PLC, it does not work well with RF IMO. I do not believe it works with security sensors either.  That code is also primarily aimed at the CM15 so if you are using a different controller, you may not have a path.

HG is the only HA tool that I know of that has developed it's own library.  It works with almost all X10 controllers. It does both PLC and RF natively. It does security modules. It also is built into the HA tool so does not link to an outside code making it cleaner.

HG has issues (primarily stagnation due to developer's interest level IMO), but as it sits it it quite capable.  I dont know how long that will be true as the RPi Hw and software progress, but today it is still very good.

Heck, the best thing would probably finding a way to extract the X10 core into a MOCHAD style tool that could be linked into other software. That way, if the HG main code is abandoned in an unworking state, the best part of it can continue on!
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 06, 2021, 02:15:43 PM
The primary difference between HG and the other systems that are X10 compatible is the library used to implement X10. In every instance outside of HG, the MOCHAD library is used. While it is very capable for PLC, it does not work well with RF IMO. I do not believe it works with security sensors either.  That code is also primarily aimed at the CM15 so if you are using a different controller, you may not have a path.

HG is the only HA tool that I know of that has developed it's own library.  It works with almost all X10 controllers. It does both PLC and RF natively. It does security modules. It also is built into the HA tool so does not link to an outside code making it cleaner.

HG has issues (primarily stagnation due to developer's interest level IMO), but as it sits it it quite capable.  I dont know how long that will be true as the RPi Hw and software progress, but today it is still very good.
Yes, however every program created tends to undergo a stagnation period if there are several contributing not so much.
I and most of the users involved in creation of the PiX10Hub think HG is the easiest to setup for X10, of all the Pi Home Automation software  tested.
It also IMO has the best looking interface.
Quote
Heck, the best thing would probably finding a way to extract the X10 core into a MOCHAD style tool that could be linked into other software. That way, if the HG main code is abandoned in an unworking state, the best part of it can continue on!
I believe Gene published just the X10 driver part on Github. So it should be easy to create something like MOCHAD from it.
I originally thought of creating my own HA software just using his drivers. However HG does so much now (X10,ZWave,Hue,Wemo) it would take me years to come close to what it can handle.
I even thought about creating my own version of HG like was done with HG-BE but why do that when it does what I want and more.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: brobin on January 06, 2021, 02:53:01 PM
I originally thought of creating my own HA software just using his drivers. However HG does so much now (X10,ZWave,Hue,Wemo) it would take me years to come close to what it can handle.
I even thought about creating my own version of HG like was done with HG-BE but why do that when it does what I want and more.

From my experience watching you T, I think you'd have it done by the weekend!  rofl
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: petera on January 06, 2021, 03:25:38 PM
The REAL question here is.....are you looking for an X10 solution or an Alexa solution. The last time I checked AHP, the software of choice for most X10 users here didn't do Alexa directly. Neither does HomeGenie. Yes there are intermediaries that can be added between both options that will provide some form of Alexa functionality and will work until they don't.That's when the trouble starts for the Alexa junkies.Reliability and continuity is the key.

It's been mentioned here on many occasions that if Alexa is your priority buy a cheap hub with a registered Alexa skill which can be easily integrated into HomeGenie. That's your reliability and continuity issue solved. Anything else will need ongoing maintenance and a certain skill set to reconfigure in the event of Alexa responding "sorry I didn't find Bedtime light".

My impression of the X10 hub was to address all things X10 that AHP provided and to provide a seamless bridge from an abandoned Windows software of 20+ years vintage to something more keeping in step with today's offerings and of course having the ability to work on a small form factor single board computer using software on a "free to use " basis. Of course there are many other utilities that can be added by each user at a later stage but getting X10 working similar to the look and feel of AHP was always going to be the mission here. Loose sight of that mission and you've lost your user base.

I've lost count of the amount of users I've stepped through some very simple steps to get HomeGenie and as a result X10 working satisfactorily from a blank SD card to a fully functioning HG setup via PM. Out of all the users I've helped only one has been back to me since and I sent them on their merry way with a solution. The trick here was to keep clutter to a minimum so if their setup went south they could easily put it right themselves.The mere mention of Alexa and my advice was the cheap hub route. I've got Alexa working directly in HomeGenie for another HomeGenie user but he has the skills to maintain it and it's way beyond most users here.

Simplicity is the key to migration here.If you offer something any more complex than AHP you are encouraging bailout rather than bailin.It might be more worthwhile concentrating on the features that AHP offer and trying to replicate that model in HomeGenie. You might be surprised at the renewed interest in HomeGenie as a result.

Personally speaking a solid set of install instructions or a well written script far outweigh the benefits any image that could be provided at this stage but it's entirely up to you if you want to keep plugging away at it.

Title: Re: Where do you stand onthe PiX10Hub
Post by: petera on January 06, 2021, 03:34:50 PM
IMHO, I think it's fair to say that most X10 users are, at this point, an older group (myself included) looking to keep things simple.  Unless whatever controllers we've used for the last umpteen years become troublesome there's little motivation to change.  My Stargate still soldiers on after 25 years with little maintenance and others are probably still mostly satisfied with what they're using.  The only thing missing for me was Alexa control which is what brought me back to this forum several years ago (thank you T!).  If my Stargate (and multiple spares) were no longer functional then delving into HG would be more attractive.

That said, if I were looking at a new controller, I'd want to spend my time building out the schedule and getting it operational rather than gathering and assembling the hardware and software components and I'd want minimal maintenance after that.  In short, I'd probably want a packaged product ready to go rather than a 'roll my own' option.  Of course, the field for that is limited for ones that still support X10 but there are at least a few left like Universal Devices, Smartenit, Home Seer and HA all of which are reasonably priced.  I'm not opposed to 'rolling my own' if that's the only way to get what I want, but it's not my first choice.

So, having taken the longwinded way to answering your question, I think offering a ready to go SD card would be helpful and you'd sell a few at $20-30, but it'd be even more attractive packaged with the hardware.  In essence, this is exactly what Home Seer, Smartenit and now HA are doing, all providing a cased Pi or similar with software loaded and ready to go with supported Alexa/GH integration.

Regarding pricing, for comparison there are ebay sellers offering Pi-Hole AD cards for $20 and loaded on a Pi4b for $110.

If you are selling on anything Linux related you need to understand the Linux kernel backwards,have built a kernel or drivers and have solid grounding in all things Linux.It's not for the newcomer.You could get yourself badly burnt otherwise. Remember all things Linux are free to use, free to distribute with all the relevant licences intact and all references to sources used to build anything must be included. This is not like the old proprietary Windows binaries back in the day. You'll have the Linux Foundation on your tail otherwise.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: petera on January 06, 2021, 03:49:34 PM
The primary difference between HG and the other systems that are X10 compatible is the library used to implement X10. In every instance outside of HG, the MOCHAD library is used. While it is very capable for PLC, it does not work well with RF IMO. I do not believe it works with security sensors either.  That code is also primarily aimed at the CM15 so if you are using a different controller, you may not have a path.

HG is the only HA tool that I know of that has developed it's own library.  It works with almost all X10 controllers. It does both PLC and RF natively. It does security modules. It also is built into the HA tool so does not link to an outside code making it cleaner.

HG has issues (primarily stagnation due to developer's interest level IMO), but as it sits it it quite capable.  I dont know how long that will be true as the RPi Hw and software progress, but today it is still very good.

Heck, the best thing would probably finding a way to extract the X10 core into a MOCHAD style tool that could be linked into other software. That way, if the HG main code is abandoned in an unworking state, the best part of it can continue on!

HEYU is rock solid for PLC.Mochad has a few subtle variations and each version solves one problem but creates another.Once the service daemon is set up correctly and the usb udev rules are correctly constructed generally Mochad runs flawlessly. The fact that it resides outside of an application in the case of Home Assistant,OpenHAB,Domoticz does lend itself to operational issues from time to time.

given the time there's no doubt you could completely unwind the HomeGenie core code.In fact that's what happened when the likes of the MIG installer was extracted from the core code to allow for a more flexible install of certain facets of HG. In fact from the revisions you provided recently I imagine you're not far off forking the project and with some assistance providing your own version.Remember GPIO would be a non runner on many RPI boards without your work and some might find their projects sunk before they sailed.People may want to be a bit more grateful for your efforts. :)%
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 06, 2021, 03:53:39 PM
I originally thought of creating my own HA software just using his drivers. However HG does so much now (X10,ZWave,Hue,Wemo) it would take me years to come close to what it can handle.
I even thought about creating my own version of HG like was done with HG-BE but why do that when it does what I want and more.

From my experience watching you T, I think you'd have it done by the weekend!  rofl
rofl thanks for the vote of confidence, but my eyes and memory have started get real foggy lately :-[.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 06, 2021, 04:04:06 PM

given the time there's no doubt you could completely unwind the HomeGenie core code.In fact that what happened when the likes of the MIG installer was extracted from the core code to allow for a more flexible install of certain facets of HG. In fact from the revisions you provided recently I imagine you're not far off forking the project and with some assistance providing your own version.Remember GPIO would be a non runner on many RPI boards without your work and some might find their projects sunk before they sailed.People may want to be a bit more grateful for your efforts. :)%

bkenobi, I must agree with petera your work getting the GPIO pin Program working again in HG was outstanding. I look forward to using it at some point. I'm just wondering what your using the HG GPIO Pin Program for?
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: bkenobi on January 06, 2021, 05:10:49 PM
I only use it for a simple motion detector, but it's the primary driver for my HA setup.  Look up the Advanced Smart Lights code if you want to see a Rube Goldberg approach to turning on a light!   rofl
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 06, 2021, 05:46:54 PM
I only use it for a simple motion detector, but it's the primary driver for my HA setup.  Look up the Advanced Smart Lights code if you want to see a Rube Goldberg approach to turning on a light!   rofl
Nice,
I had thought about a Motion sensor GPIO project but still going over what for or how I'd use it based on where my Pi boards currently sit.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: tsltrek on January 08, 2021, 03:00:39 PM

My impression of the X10 hub was to address all things X10 that AHP provided and to provide a seamless bridge from an abandoned Windows software of 20+ years vintage to something more keeping in step with today's offerings and of course having the ability to work on a small form factor single board computer using software on a "free to use " basis. Of course there are many other utilities that can be added by each user at a later stage but getting X10 working similar to the look and feel of AHP was always going to be the mission here. Loose sight of that mission and you've lost your user base.


Exactly.
Last month, I stumbled on PiX10Hub while surfing and thought "might be a fun project to have a backup for AHP".  Procuring and setting up the pizero was very easy for me...I find working in/configuring HG to be the most frustrating part.  And I only require some simple lighting macros (sunrise/set with offset, repeat command for reliability, set time off, christmas schedule).  I'm just looking for a replacement/backup for AHP.  Took me longer than it should to figure out that cron expression is a standard  ::)  Surfing multiple forums for solutions is a real detractor too.  But this is the price to pay to stay on x10.  Thanks to all of you for the great work, but the audience is small and as the technical difficulty rises the audience shrinks.  The only reason I didn't abandon x10 and go with a more modern solution is most of them require the cloud for remote control....and I'm cheap  rofl
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: petera on January 08, 2021, 07:20:38 PM

My impression of the X10 hub was to address all things X10 that AHP provided and to provide a seamless bridge from an abandoned Windows software of 20+ years vintage to something more keeping in step with today's offerings and of course having the ability to work on a small form factor single board computer using software on a "free to use " basis. Of course there are many other utilities that can be added by each user at a later stage but getting X10 working similar to the look and feel of AHP was always going to be the mission here. Loose sight of that mission and you've lost your user base.


Exactly.
Last month, I stumbled on PiX10Hub while surfing and thought "might be a fun project to have a backup for AHP".  Procuring and setting up the pizero was very easy for me...I find working in/configuring HG to be the most frustrating part.  And I only require some simple lighting macros (sunrise/set with offset, repeat command for reliability, set time off, christmas schedule).  I'm just looking for a replacement/backup for AHP.  Took me longer than it should to figure out that cron expression is a standard  ::)  Surfing multiple forums for solutions is a real detractor too.  But this is the price to pay to stay on x10.  Thanks to all of you for the great work, but the audience is small and as the technical difficulty rises the audience shrinks.  The only reason I didn't abandon x10 and go with a more modern solution is most of them require the cloud for remote control....and I'm cheap  rofl

Most if not all X10 questions can be answered from here http://old.homegenie.club:8080/www.homegenie.it/forum/index.html

Although it is an archive you can search directly from Google by starting your search with "old homegenie forum" . Of course there's the homegenie club forum currently active and it still has X10 users on board so ask away there too. Believe me X10 on HomeGenie is quite straightforward though you wouldn't think it sometimes when it goes off topic  rofl
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: tsltrek on January 09, 2021, 03:14:47 PM
A new day and a better perspective.  Turns out actually reading the scheduling section of the HG manual and then using the built in scheduler to create the cron expressions...makes a whole lot more sense!   rofl Thanks again to you guys (petera, Tuicemen, bkenobi) ...there is a ton of information on these forums...much appreciated.   :)%
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: bkenobi on January 09, 2021, 05:45:17 PM
The bulk of the most useful info on HG is archived on the old HG forum over at the HG club.  If you have a technical question, it most likely was covered over there.  Your best bet is to go to google and search using:

Code: [Select]
site:http://old.homegenie.club search terms
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: HA Dave on January 12, 2021, 12:35:00 AM
I've relegated my X10 setup to my home theater (only about a dozen modules and switches now-a-days). Which was actually what brought me to X10 (and Home Automation) years ago. I am also using the wm-100 and 3 palmpads. I could do much (MUCH) more... but for now... I've pared-down the X10 part of my setup

The (Home) Theater isn't a good choice/place for "voice control" (too loud).... or for "phone/Internet control" (too distracting). The PalmPads are a good fit.

My other automation (wifi of various brands, all integrated via Alexa) has grown to extreme proportions.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: bkenobi on January 12, 2021, 11:37:46 AM
Bezos knows and appreciates your support!
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: brobin on January 12, 2021, 11:45:55 AM
Bezos knows and appreciates your support!
rofl :)% rofl
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 13, 2021, 03:23:06 PM
Several were having issues with just installing the lite version of the Pi OS.
It was originaly decided to use the lite version of the Pi OS for this due to low memory on the Pi boards causing preformance issue running servers. This cause several users to give up as every thing had to be done via command line thus a Pi wasn't for them. The newer Pi 4 versions have more memory available for running a Destop (GUI) along with the PiX10Hub softwares.


 Others had suggested just posting scripts for installing the PiX10Hub software suite with detail use instructions. Yet none have been posted to date.  ::) :'
 Since there are some comfortable with using the command line and others that just want to use the GUI I've decided to create scripts that can be both used via double clicking on them in the GUI or running from command line.
End Users can install the full or lite version of the Pi OS which ever they are most comfortable with. This will also allow splitting up the software suite so it would be possible to run HA-Bridge on one pi and HomeGenie on another for better performance.(Not that you couldn't do that prior.)

Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: HA Dave on January 13, 2021, 08:22:12 PM
Bezos knows and appreciates your support!

IDK.... with somewhere between 112 and 126 MILLION prime members in the US alone... Jeff may not remember my name. Besides our phones, smart TV's, electric meters, automobiles, and even some refrigerators are all spying on us. Things... have changed considerably over the years. Yesterday's wars... have already been lost and/or won. I am not going to spend my time worrying about already settled affairs. 
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: bkenobi on January 14, 2021, 11:34:39 AM
Actually, installing RaspberryOS (or the older Raspbian) have always been simple and can be accomplished within a few steps requiring no scripts or complicated instructions.


This is assuming the user needs to write the OS to more than one card.  If they simply want to write an image one time, they can use the installation tool which does everything for you.  Navigate to: raspberrypi.org/software and select the windows installer.  It will let you select the version of the OS you want (I recommend RaspberryOS Lite) and what drive your SD is inserted into.  Simply select "WRITE".  It will download and install the image pretty quick/easy depending on your network speeds.

The next step is to install HG.  There were issues with the installer when Gene stepped away leaving it difficult to install.  However, those issues no longer exist and the standard installation works fine.  The steps to install could be put into a script but it seems silly since that would actually make more work.  Simply follow the installation guide.

Navigate to the HG homepage:  http://www.homegenie.it
Click on the "Get Started" link on the upper right.  Select "Download".  If you scroll down on the right pane it will give you installation instructions for Window, Linux, etc.  Under Linux (Ubuntu, Raspbian and others Debian derivatives) there are 4 lines of code that will install HG on a RPi.  Simply copy/paste these to the command line and HG will be up and running.

If the user has opted to connect a monitor and keyboard up, then they will have to type in those lines.  I recommend using SSH as it makes life much simpler, but some people think a mouse will solve all problems so they want to have a GUI on the RPi.  The problem with the older systems is that the RPi was not all that powerful and adding the GUI on top of things was a drawback.  That hasn't been the case in years (since the RPi2 and 3 really).

If a user wants to install your image, they will save the steps of running a few commands on the command line, but then since the system is out of date, they will have to do the same by updating each package.  I don't know if your installation has those packages linked back to the debian installer, but if not they will have to figure that out manually.  If so, it's a matter of "sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade".
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 14, 2021, 01:06:41 PM
Downloading & burning an image never was a issue for most. I believe the issue came after first power up as any image needs to be configured and updated.
As well installing HG and the bridge from command line got most user frustrated even with the ability to copy paste commands, some still fail to get an install right. ::) :'

 The current image does a update & upgrade on first install before any other software gets installed so the Raspi OS is the latest greatest. However a user still should be doing a update & upgrade periodicaly as the Pi OS is updated reguarly. HG and HA-Bridge are a different story those are outdated!
 -:) Maybe a script should be created to Update HA-Bridge as updating HG is a simple click from the web ui.
However I'm not sure many others use HA-Bridge anymore.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: petera on January 14, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
I think somewhere along the line the whole concept of HG being server software was lost. Probably understandable for people who have never been exposed to a server environment. The idea is a web UI (or the term GUI as most Wimdows users would be familiar with) would be the means to access the server with to create all the widgets, timers, macros and automations you would ever need. This is accessed from your Windows PC via one of the popular web browsers out there like IE, Chrome or Firefox.

Any updating of the RPI server OS could be done from the same Windows machine using the all too familiar SSH (or PuTTY for the Windows user) Why would anyone want to dump another GUI on top of this bearing in mind that the majority of users here are Windows centric and do all their work from a laptop/desktop PC.

The whole notion of a server tucked away in the corner doing it's job is completely lost when periphals like a mouse, keyboard or monitor is attached. I suppose the best simplistic comparison would be the CM15 fully programmed and disconnected from the PC sitting in the corner doing its job with very little intervention. The Raspberry Pi/CM15 combination would perform exactly the same function and should be treated accordingly. That's where the term PiX10 hub has some real validity.

Yes by all means play around with the whole concept of the Raspberry Pi as a desktop PC but don't dump all that unnecessary overhead on top of a server whose sole job is to perform all the automations required to run the household appliances. Basically keep it simple with little or no manual intervention.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 14, 2021, 02:19:08 PM
I think somewhere along the line the whole concept of HG being server software was lost. Probably understandable for people who have never been exposed to a server environment. The idea is a web UI (or the term GUI as most Wimdows users would be familiar with) would be the means to access the server with to create all the widgets, timers, macros and automations you would ever need. This is accessed from your Windows PC via one of the popular web browsers out there like IE, Chrome or Firefox.

Any updating of the RPI server OS could be done from the same Windows machine using the all too familiar SSH (or PuTTY for the Windows user) Why would anyone want to dump another GUI on top of this bearing in mind that the majority of users here are Windows centric and do all their work from a laptop/desktop PC.

The whole notion of a server tucked away in the corner doing it's job is completely lost when periphals like a mouse, keyboard or monitor is attached. I suppose the best simplistic comparison would be the CM15 fully programmed and disconnected from the PC sitting in the corner doing its job with very little intervention. The Raspberry Pi/CM15 combination would perform exactly the same function and should be treated accordingly. That's where the term PiX10 hub has some real validity.

Yes by all means play around with the whole concept of the Raspberry Pi as a desktop PC but don't dump all that unnecessary overhead on top of a server whose sole job is to perform all the automations required to run the household appliances. Basically keep it simple with little or no manual intervention.
Exactly! Set it up and stick it out of sight.
 I guess you could (if you installed the Raspi OS full and enabled the desktop) add Teamviewer or simular and remote into the Pi as one user I know has. However I see no need for the Raspi Desktop for HG or the Bridge as you have to use a browser to access them anyways.
 >!
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: HA Dave on January 15, 2021, 02:07:56 PM
..... I suppose the best simplistic comparison would be the CM15 fully programmed and disconnected from the PC sitting in the corner doing its job with very little intervention. The Raspberry Pi/CM15 combination would perform exactly the same function and should be treated accordingly.

Exactly! Set it up and stick it out of sight.

I started out with the old CM11A. It was set it up and forget it. The CM15A was BETTER. And then..... with the X10's (who then coined phrase of "smart home") idea of a PC connected full time to a CM15A AND connected to the Internet and X10 server(s). That was eye-opening. And THAT was 15 years ago. Time sure fly's doesn't it.

We can't go backwards.

Sure like many of the other geezers here I am still pounding away on a laptop while on-line. But when needing to take a meeting with Zoom..... I installed that app on my iphone. I have a keyboard for the phone too. And the phone pairs well with my smart TV. Perfect for doing business at home.

If we're only using X10 for a few light timers, or a sprinkler system.... even the old CM11A was good for that.

BUT... if you want to ask your automation setup what traffic is like on the way to the airport.... you need cloud support. If you want your automation setup to remind you to get some fuel preservative next time you're near a Home Depot... you need cloud support. If you want to use your cars connection to speak with people at home (like an intercom).... you need cloud support.

I wouldn't work at limiting the Pi-Hub. I'd exploit the HELL out of it's capabilities. But that will mandate servers... the cloud. I don't know of any way around it.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: Tuicemen on January 15, 2021, 04:05:03 PM

BUT... if you want to ask your automation setup what traffic is like on the way to the airport.... you need cloud support. If you want your automation setup to remind you to get some fuel preservative next time you're near a Home Depot... you need cloud support. If you want to use your cars connection to speak with people at home (like an intercom).... you need cloud support.

I wouldn't work at limiting the Pi-Hub. I'd exploit the HELL out of it's capabilities. But that will mandate servers... the cloud. I don't know of any way around it.
What so many fail to see it the cloud is just a bunch of servers.
 The PiX10Hub is two servers, three if you enable MQTT.
With the HomeGenie server I can grab info from several other servers.(not just other HG or HA-Bridge servers)
Most of what you mention is possible now from any internet capable phone, tablet, laptop.....  with the HomeGenie server linked with other servers.

With the PiX10Hub software suite installed on a Pi, PC, Mac, or laptop you can add things, control things (not just X10), get info from anywhere you have a internet connection. If you wish to do this.
I created programs on my city PiX10Hub and got info from it while at my off grid place.
I currently have 2 Pi boards a PC and a laptop all sharing info in my city place, only one is connected to the internet.

The PiX10Hub software suite (Homegenie specificaly) is capable of more then most think.
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: HA Dave on January 17, 2021, 09:05:34 AM
What so many fail to see it the cloud is just a bunch of servers.

IDK. I know the cloud is just servers! But from what I read here (and other places) many think of "the Cloud" as an evil, foreign, place, ruled by Jeff Betos and Bill Gates. How do "WE" know your not really Bill Gates.... PRETENDING to be Tuicemen?  :'  rofl

I created programs on my city PiX10Hub and got info from it while at my off grid place.
I currently have 2 Pi boards a PC and a laptop all sharing info in my city place, only one is connected to the internet.
The PiX10Hub software suite (Homegenie specificaly) is capable of more then most think.

Years ago.... BEFORE Home Automation went mainstream.... there used to be on-line discussions about if HA was a hobby, or a useful control method for many with disabilities, or just a fun way for people with deep pockets to show off. And of course.... there was also the android-TopHat users who were looking for applications for their "free Software" (anti-American) advocatity.

And I don't mean to demean software hobbyists! I think it's pretty cool some people compile their own apps and software mods. And I have no desire to define a fine-line between a software hobby (that controls HA) and a HA hobby (that depends on software).

I myself..... at one time... spent countless hours alone, in my Home Office studying for network certifications and playing with HA software and plug-in's. Or... in more recent years.... in my easychair logging "screen time" on my iphone.

But things change. Today.... we can create connections and routines by merely asking an AI app to make such things work. I am not saying that we "HAVE" use that method to create Home Automation. But it can be that simple. And... we don't HAVE to limit automation to lights, and sprinklers. Automation is much bigger than just simple home-based devices now-a-days. And THAT... we can't change.      
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: bkenobi on January 17, 2021, 02:14:30 PM
Interpretation is just that...
Title: Re: Where do you stand on the PiX10Hub
Post by: dkbialik on June 30, 2023, 04:22:37 PM
Up until last week PiX10/hub was working flawlessly for me.  Unfortunately we had a major power surge that fried some things including the Pi that was running everything.  After an entire rebuild I have the buster image controlling x10 through home genie and HA Bridge but it will not talk to Alexa.  Any ideas?