X10 Community Forum

General Home Automation => Automating Your House => User Modified Devices => Topic started by: joe on June 06, 2005, 12:07:01 PM

Title: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: joe on June 06, 2005, 12:07:01 PM
Got sick of the infamous battery ritual to
reset the CM15A. So I installed a normally
closed pushbutton on the case and wired it in
series with U5. When pushed, it interrupts
power to the 5 volt regulator and resets the
controller. You dont even have to unplug it!

Joe
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: SteveRF on June 06, 2005, 08:36:53 PM
Now that was a GREAT idea !
Thanks for sharing !

regards,
Steverf
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: Henri T on June 07, 2005, 10:52:52 AM
Hi,

Any picture of that ?

Thanks
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: joe on June 07, 2005, 01:42:30 PM
You dont really need a picture to accomplish
it. Just get a small normally closed
pushbutton and drill a hole in the side of
the case to mount it. Then cut the lead from
the regulator input and wire the switch in
series with it. Nothing fancy, the switch can
go anywhere. I used a small one I had laying
around that required a 1/4 inch hole. I
drilled it in the side of the case about even
with the antenna but on the opposite side. A
quick push and the CM15A is hardware reset!
If you still want a picture, I will take it
apart this weekend and take a shot.

Joe
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: Scott T on June 08, 2005, 06:45:30 AM
This is a band aid to the problem and x-10
should just fix this issue, but I like your
end user innovations!
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: joe on June 08, 2005, 08:27:19 AM
Scott,

Yep it is a baindaid no argument there but
look , this battery thing has been around as
long as the CM15A and no fix from X10 so
sometimes you gotta take the bull by the
horns. Maybe the design engineer at X10 will
read this and have an epiphany, learn to put
reset circuitry in it next time!

Joe
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: carmine pacifico on June 08, 2005, 08:49:02 AM
Maybe if the design engineer at X10 had any
brain he would use the Watchdog reset(WDR)
instruction within the chip and self reset
the CM15a when his firmware hangs,
eliminating the need to power cycle the
micro-controller.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: joe on June 08, 2005, 10:02:41 AM
Carmine, if they did that, it would just hang
when the reset occured, all the RAM would get
initialized. There is no way to reload unless
it is hooked to a PC.

Joe
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: carmine pacifico on June 08, 2005, 12:12:59 PM
Joe

Reload what?
Macros are stored in external EE_prom, only
the clock need to be reloaded,
During a WDR reset the internal ram is
intact, this means the clock is just
stopped.
Their reset routine should interrogate
the ďProcessor status and Control RegisterĒ,
If a WDR reset proceed without resetting
Clock, at the most the CM15a would loose 1
second or 2.
From Micro-Controller data sheet:
10.0 Reset
The USB Controller supports three types of
resets. The effects
of the reset are listed below. The reset
types are:
1. Low-voltage Reset (LVR)
2. Brown Out Reset (BOR)
3. Watchdog Reset (WDR)
The occurrence of a reset is recorded in
the Processor Status
and Control Register (Figure 20-1). Bits 4
(Low-voltage or
Brown-out Reset bit) and 6 (Watchdog Reset
bit) are used to
record the occurrence of LVR/BOR and WDR
respectively.
The firmware can interrogate these bits to
determine the cause
of a reset.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: roger1818 on June 08, 2005, 01:59:37 PM
Carmine:  I suspect (though I donít know
for sure) that they are using the Watchdog
reset.  The problem is the Watchdog will
only cause a reset if CPU hangs
completely.  This often isnít the case.
Since same CPU is used for composing &
interpreting powerline commands, composing
& interpreting RF commands, maintaining the
clock (for timed events), and talking to
the USB port.  I have never noticed all of
these not working at the same time.  I have
had one or more of them stop working while
others continue to work.  If any of these
still work, the CPU must still be running
and the watchdog would not trigger a reset.

I donít know why some would stop working
while others continue to work, but that
seems to be what happens.  Regardless of
the cause, a reset seems to get everything
to work again.  With the diagnostic unit,
the only thing I have had stop working is
USB communications.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: roger1818 on June 08, 2005, 02:03:00 PM
Carmine:  BTW. I do agree that they should
check what type of reset occurred and not
reset the clock if a Watchdog Reset
occurred.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: joe on June 09, 2005, 08:07:37 AM
Carmine, you are obviously much more familiar
with the capabilities of the processor they
are using. I was not aware that it had
resetting flexibility. By all means if that
is the way it works then X10 should have
implemented those features.

Hey, it sounds like at some point, someone
here will get a pic emulator and just
reprogram the CM15 with their own firmware. I
can just see it now on ebay, CM15A upgrade
firmware $49.95 :)

Have a happy.

Joe
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: carmine pacifico on June 09, 2005, 09:46:36 AM
Joe

I hate to burst your bubble, there are not
using a PIC, itís a Cypress Micro-
Controller and has less computing power
than the PIC used in older X10 products,
and to make matters worse the Micro is
flawed and new part(Encore II) itís not
backwards compatible both at firmware and
pin-out.
I am to busy working on my smart sprinkler
controller to waste any time on it, why
waste any time fixing their hardware when
their PC software(AHP) itís else sub-
standard.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: joe on June 09, 2005, 01:35:30 PM
Hmmm, Cypress. I wonder if there is some sort
of emulator available for that one, maybe
from digikey? Anyway, I agree with you, it is
not worth the time to re-engineer it. If I
was going to do it, I would not use the same
device for USB and RF but what do I know.

Joe
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: roger1818 on June 09, 2005, 01:54:01 PM
Joe: It was the RF integration that
attracted me to the CM15A.  I agree that
the CM15A needs to be in three locations at
once for optimal performance (near the PC
for USB connectivity, near the centre of
the house for optimal RF range and near the
breaker panel for optimal powerline signal
strength) but having them integrated allows
macros to be triggered directly from an RF
command instead of having to wait for it to
be transceived into a powerline command.

AHP originally didnít support this feature,
but I accidentally discovered the other day
that it now does (I donít think it is
documented anywere).  It could use some
improvement since the current rule seems to
be that if there is a macro for that
command it wonít transceiver it.  There are
times when you have a module at the same
address as a macro and would like it to be
transceived anyway, but it isnít that
difficult to get around the problem.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: Tigger on June 09, 2005, 03:00:17 PM
 
Carmine -

You keep pointing out that the Cypress
controller has a known bug with the GPIO
function, but you also state that X10 doesn't
use the GPIO function of the chip.

Can you explain then the relevancy of the
chip being flawed, so I can understand why
you keep mentioning it?


T



Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: SteveRF on June 09, 2005, 03:05:46 PM
I really do not care what kind of watchdog
timers are used, cpu, chipset, etc etc etc...
What I DO CARE about is ..If there is an EASY
and RELIABLE way to cause "safe" reset
without having to place the unit back on the
PC and reload program or time...then I am
definitely interested... I am not going to
reverse engineer something that cost $49.95
and works pretty darn well for weeks and
weeks... That does not mean I won't be
keeping my eye open for better solutions but
a quick and easy solution to keep me from
having to remove, unplug batteries, reload
programs and reinstall back to the utility
closet would be MOST welcome to a lot of
us...probably MOST of us !  Tips and Ideas
Welcome !

Regards,
SteveRF
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: SteveRF on June 09, 2005, 03:10:26 PM
JOE...
By the way, your straightforward way of
presenting a hardware solution was great..!
So many times all I see is run on and run on
discussing the same thing we can't do
anything about..over and over and over...
Thanks !
SteveRF
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: carmine pacifico on June 09, 2005, 05:26:25 PM
Tigger

In a nut shell, they can not use interrupt
on I/O pin, the other option is polling;
polling increase firmware over head and
slows down response.
Because Cypress new version of the Chip is
based on totally new silicon I suspect that
they may be more problem than just GPIO.

Steve

If you follow Joe advice you will void the
warranty.
All this communication itís not wasted, if
more people are aware of the hardware
problems and complain X10 may improve the
hardware.
As far as reverse engineering I would not
waste my time, but some people have to much
time on their hands; who knows they could
come up with an improved version, has been
done with other X10 products in the past.

Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: donald mcmow on June 10, 2005, 03:46:13 AM
Carmine:  If X10 is NOT using the GPIO then
I guess the chip is NOT FLAWED. You can't
keep saying it is when that function is not
being used. If you are talking about a
device that is using the GPIO and doesn't
work then there is a problem. X10 isn't so
that portion of the chip is just dead
silicon. I think it's time to drop the
issue and deal with something else.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: joe on June 10, 2005, 08:36:03 AM
SteveRF,
The switch I described was just to keep from
having to unplug and remove batteries. When
the button is pushed, the unit is dumb for
all intents and must be reloaded, but it does
save some time and aggrivation.

As far as voiding the warrantee, most of
these folks have modified their units with
the antenna fix. The reason I decided to do
this was that this problem has been around
since day 1 with no fix in sight. Since X10
cant or wont address the problem, I threw my
solution out for those who are as aggrivated
as me that you have to go through this ritual
every time you want to reset the darn thing.

I noticed that in the schematic that there is
a 10 microfarad capacitor on the input to the
regulator so if you simply unplug the unit
from the wall and then remove the batteries,
the 10 mic cap has to discharge before the
processor actually resets. This is why people
are saying they have to unplug and let sit
for a while. My reset button is after the
capacitor so when you push it, the regulator
instantly loses input voltage and the 5 volt
supply collapses. So it is very quick, just a
"bandaid" but those of us who are hackers
will see the benefit.

Joe
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: roger1818 on June 10, 2005, 10:51:10 AM
Joe:  Your idea is a good one.  It
certainly would be easier than the battery
ritual.

Not to burst your bubble though, the 10 uF
cap does not play a significant role in
holding the voltage.  There is a 470uF cap
just off of the rectifier that will have a
larger effect.  Even still, the capacitors
should be 98% discharged in less than a
second.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: carmine pacifico on June 10, 2005, 11:05:41 AM
Mr. Donald McMow

You are right, X10 itís not using the
flawed part of the chip; but itís like
buying a car:
Itís a great car but because of a flaw in
the transmission you can only go up 3rd
gear instead of 5th.
You can still go from point A to point B,
but a lot slower.
Loss of Clock
Loss of RF signals
Crashes when using more macros memory
These problems could be resolved if they
could use GPIO.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: Tigger on June 10, 2005, 12:29:09 PM
 
I must be lucky - I haven't had to go through
the battery ritual yet.

I have had one or two lock-ups over the last
month or two, but nothing I haven't dealt
with using the CM11 . . .

The lock-ups I experience are resolved by
unplugging the CM15 for about 1/2 second,
and plugging it back in. . .


T
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: scootertrs on February 17, 2007, 08:04:40 AM
Could you please show where exactly the NC pushbutton switch would normally be wired? maybe a pic?  thanks
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: Brian H on February 17, 2007, 11:17:22 AM
Someone has added bypass caps to the CM15A to prevent higher frequency noise that big caps don't handle from messing it up. If you have lots of powerline noise.

Most electronics have bypass caps as standard design.

I have not tried it but the report they gave was improved markedly.

They added a .1uf 50V cap as follows:
Across VCC to VSS [+5 and Common] U1 [the microcontroller] pins 11 to 6
Across VCC to VSS U2 [24C64 Serial memory chip] pins 4 to 8
C11 100uf Output side of U5 regulator
C12 10uf Input side of U5 regulator.
I asked about C2 the 470uf 50V on the Power Supply and they indicated it didn't make much difference there. If I did the mod I would add one there also.
Radio Shack carries the .1uf 50V caps last time I looked.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: scootertrs on February 18, 2007, 03:59:09 AM
OK got my cm15a open and cannot find U5 component location, but do see a 5V jumper on the board.  would cutting this jumper and wiring the NC switch accross these leads accomplish the reset function?  If not, can anyone direct me to the proper place to wire in the NC switch? Thanks
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: Brian H on February 18, 2007, 07:32:04 AM
U5 is a small TO92 type package and looks like a Transistor.
With the component side of PCB Facing you.
USB Port on bottom edge.
Left of the power transformer and the large 470uf cap.
Leads of U5 are Silk Screened on the Board:  I Input [nearest 470uf cap]; C Common and O Output.
I don't know if any of the leads have a jumper on the PCB
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: scootertrs on February 18, 2007, 08:14:08 AM
Got it... Thanks Joe

You know, in my system, when the cm15A does its ugly thing, it not only quits working, but also keeps all of the RF remotes from working, even if I have other RF receivers in the system.  I guess it generates noise or some type of jam signal.  Only when I do the reset or unplug from outlet do I get back RF operation.  Hopefully this reset setup will make the resets less painful.  I was wondering, If any others had experience with the Powerlinc 1132CU.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: Brian H on February 18, 2007, 02:29:54 PM
I have a 1132CU in service now. I only use the Free Smarthome Manager Essential and not the Pro that adds Conditionals.
I just have a set of times downloaded to it, so nothing fancy.
Mine has one problem that maybe related to my exact hardware. If I leave the USB Cable connected and the computer is off. The internal clock in the 1132CU can loose maybe 30 minutes to an hour over night. Unconnected it is just fine. I do have my USB ports set to have NO Standby Power on them, most have standby on them for things like Wake On USB Activity.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: poursha on March 03, 2007, 06:36:46 PM
I have a 1132CU in service now. I only use the Free Smarthome Manager Essential and not the Pro that adds Conditionals.
I just have a set of times downloaded to it, so nothing fancy.
Mine has one problem that maybe related to my exact hardware. If I leave the USB Cable connected and the computer is off. The internal clock in the 1132CU can loose maybe 30 minutes to an hour over night. Unconnected it is just fine. I do have my USB ports set to have NO Standby Power on them, most have standby on them for things like Wake On USB Activity.

I also noticed this loss of time...

Since I don't do daily updates to timers or macros, I decided to move the CM15A to the upstairs, and get it out of my living room.  Not longer hooked to a PC full time.  It does seem to lose time, but I haven't quantified it yet.

Frustrating.  I mean, timing is one of the simplest chipsets, you'd think that it would work with AC power, and battery backup.  I guess one solution would be to hook to another PC, or to hook to a USB power supply.

Rob
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: MitchB on March 11, 2007, 03:17:35 PM
More people should use USB extenders.  I have my CM15a in the garage by the breaker panel.  Granted, it's a little tougher for RF use, but the unit is always connected to my PC.  The only nuisance is the run of CAT5 (attic).  I haven't had a lockup in months, so maybe I'm just lucky.  If it becomes an issue, I'll surely add the Reset switch.

Of course, I"ve now turned the $50 product into at least a $100 product.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: bitman on June 04, 2009, 07:11:53 PM
Sweet.

 :)%
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: lorcott on February 06, 2011, 11:53:59 AM
MitchB...FYI, I'm using Windows Remote Desktop and a dedicated computer running AHP AND the CM15 are both near the circuit breaker box. No need for USB extender.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: pomonabill221 on April 18, 2011, 04:23:37 PM
Got sick of the infamous battery ritual to
reset the CM15A. So I installed a normally
closed pushbutton on the case and wired it in
series with U5. When pushed, it interrupts
power to the 5 volt regulator and resets the
controller. You dont even have to unplug it!
 
Joe

GREAT idea BUT......

The regulator in the CM15 is a LM2931 (a LDOV (low drop out voltage)) regulator so that it will still operate when the battery voltage gets to around 5 volts.
  THIS IS A PROBLEM with this CHOICE of regulator because under NORMAL load, the unregulated input voltage is about 24 volts (after the bridge / zener / 150ohm resistor) at C12.
  When the input (or output for that matter) to/from the regulator is removed, the UNregulated voltage rises to about 34-37 volts (depends on your AC input voltage).
  When the power is reapplied to the regulator, it shuts down because of the over voltage shutdown (protection feature) of the regulator.  Linear Tech's data sheet lists this value as "Maximum operational input voltage".
  The data sheet for the regulator (search for LM2931) states that it will shut down if the input voltage exceeds (typically) 33 volts, and this is exactly what happens when the load is removed from the regulator's input!  B:( B:(
  I would imagine THIS IS WHAT IS "HANGING" (as what alot of people have problems with) the CM15!!  -:)
  Think of this scenerio:

  1)  Everything is running fine and your AC line is a little bit high on the line the CM15 is plugged into because some heavy loads (Uwave, AC, coffee maker, clothes iron, electric floor heater) are running on the OTHER line and the loads on the AC lines are not balanced and the neutral has been pulled to the loaded side that makes the line to neutral voltage for your CM15 a little higher than 115 VAC.  Could be as high as 125-128 volts!!!!

   2) An inductive load is applied across one of the heavily loaded lines and creates a small spike that walks through the PS transformer/FWB/filter caps/zener/150 ohm resistor, and spikes the 28-30 UNregulated voltage to around 33-35 volts.

  3) The LM2931's crowbar circuit shuts down the regulated 5 volts and the CM15 seems to "hang".  it is REALLY SHUT DOWN!!!!  B:( B:( B:(
 
The ONLY way to recover is to power down and remove the batteries!!!
  It is NOT necessarily a hung processor, BUT WHAT IS KNOWN AS "CROWBAR" IN POWER SUPPLIES!!!
  The ONLY way to remove the crowbar condition of the regulator is to remove ALL power (AC and batteries).
  Some people that try this great idea for a reset mod MAY not have the crowbar shutdown happen as the unloaded power supply voltage is MARGINALLY near the crowbar threshold of the regulator.
  When I tried it (remove input or output), the regulator did not always shutdown.  :-\
  I took some measurements and the unloaded and loaded unregulated voltages I found were VERY close to the maximum limits on the regulator so I am going to try and find another LDOV regulator that has a higher input voltage limit, or change the zener on the input to a 12 or 15 volt and place a small load resistor on the input to keep the regulator to keep the zener loaded when the real load is disconnected.  Problem with that is the batteries will also be artificially loaded when no AC is being supplied... hhmmmmm.
  Right now, I am actually shorting the regulator's output.  I know,,, I know.... not a good idea, BUT the regulator DOES have short circuit protection, over power disapation shutdown, AND during the short, the current is only 70 mA and the regulator is rated at 100 mA max., so it doesn't really harm the regulator
  STILL is NOT a good idea, but in the mean time.....
  Looks like a better LDOV regulator is the best answer....  WITH the OP's great idea as well!!!! >!
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: dave w on April 18, 2011, 08:42:57 PM
 -:)
Mount a N.C. push button, wired in series with the positive lead from the batteries, on the back of the CM15A.

Now you have to unplug CM15A to get to the reset button. So simple.  rofl
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: pomonabill221 on April 19, 2011, 12:10:37 AM
-:)
Mount a N.C. push button, wired in series with the positive lead from the batteries, on the back of the CM15A.

Now you have to unplug CM15A to get to the reset button. So simple.  rofl

Yes that will work too, BUT the whole idea of the OP's mod was to eliminate the battery and/or unplug ritual, so the reset button that removes power could be located a short distance away from the CM15 so that it is easily accessable, and there would be no need to unplug and/or remove the batteries.  even simpler!!!   rofl rofl

Or another thought.... use a TM751's appliance outlet to pull a relay that removes power from the CM15 AND opens the battery supply.   Simply turn the TM751 on then off.  You would use the NC contacts on the relay (double pole!!!).  rofl rofl rofl

OR yet another thought... use a universal module in the momentary mode to pulse a relay that does the above.   rofl rofl rofl rofl

The original post was a great thought to simplify resetting the CM15, and I am greatful for his idea! >! #:)  I was just shedding some light on a fault that I found (NOT the op's fault, X10's design fault!), with the original idea, and what it might cause, and what is causing it and maybe other's "hanging CM15" problem.
  There are ALWAYS different ways to accomplish a thought, and I was offering my findings and ideas to possibly improve his idea.  I don't appreciate the sarcasim!
  These forums are here to help others with problems, and to share ideas and findings.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: dave w on April 19, 2011, 02:53:38 PM
I don't appreciate the sarcasim!
  These forums are here to help others with problems, and to share ideas and findings.
If you are referring to my post, it was intended to be humorous, not sarcastic.  :-*
The suggestion was intended to eliminate the hassle of removing the CM15A batteries,  since interupting the regulator input could cause the regulator to shut down in crowbar mode, still requiring unplugging AND removing the batteries.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: pomonabill221 on April 19, 2011, 05:12:24 PM
  Well I found a LDOV regulator with a higher max input voltage (40 volts).
  All the features are the same... thermal shutdown (pretty typical these days), low drop out voltage (200 mV), TO-92 with the same pinout (reversed from "regular" regulators  ie... input/gnd/output), short circuit protection.
  The difference, besides max input voltage, is the max current.
  The one used has a 100 mA max, and this one has 50 mA max.
  The CM15A is only using about 15 mA so this should not be a problem.
  The National part is an LM2936, and there is a TO-92 package available.
  Another option I will try first is changing the zener from a 10 volt to a 15 volt.  There is no reason for the regulator to have such a high input voltage, and this should prevent the regulator from going into crowbar.
  I think the 150 ohm resistor is there to keep the power dissipation down for the zener, and to prevent excessive current in case of short circuit.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: pomonabill221 on April 26, 2011, 04:23:45 PM
  Well my latest testing revealed that installing a 5 volts zener in series with the 10 volt DID reduce the regulator's input voltage to below crowbar, -:)
 BUT....
  When power is first applied, something is drawing enough current (either the processor booting and the 120Khz driver being on during the startup drawing alot of current (believe me, it DOES turn on briefly)), that the +5 output is only getting to about +3, and the processor never does start! B:(
  Soooo...
  The culprit is the 150 ohm resistor on the input to the regulator limiting the startup current, and if removed, the processor starts up fine. :)%
  I am guessing the 150 ohm is there to keep the current low when the CM15 is on battery power, and when the CM15 tries to transmitt an X10 plc signal it tries to use the battery to do it.
  When on battery power, the zeners are forward biased like a conventional diode, and battery voltage is used to drive the coupling transformer...
  Sooo...
  I installed a conventional diode in place of the 150 ohm resistor that would isolate the PLC output section when on battery.
  I can now reset the CM15 with a NC pushbutton either on AC or Battery power, and the battery supplied the regulator for backup, and NOT the PLC section.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: jclarkw on March 31, 2016, 02:04:55 PM
Got sick of the infamous battery ritual to
reset the CM15A. So I installed a normally
closed pushbutton on the case and wired it in
series with U5. When pushed, it interrupts
power to the 5 volt regulator and resets the
controller. You dont even have to unplug it!
Joe

Yeah, this is a really old thread, but here's an ignorant question about this clever technique:

Do you still have to remove the batteries to make this work, or does the switch also disconnect the batteries?  (Doesn't sound like it disconnects the batteries, but I haven't looked at the schematic...) -- jclarkw
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: Brian H on March 31, 2016, 04:07:36 PM
Here is the schematic of the main board in the CM15A.
That is not the latest where X10WTI had it redesigned to use Surface Mounted parts and the RF Transmitter and receiver are now on the main board. Older design has a RF Transmitter daughter board and RF receiver daughter board.

https://www.laser.com/dhouston/CM15A.pdf

The four bypass capacitors in Red are not on the board but end users found it made it much more stable by adding them.

The batteries feed U5 input through some diodes so the main supply does not feed back into the batteries when on AC.
I would say breaking the U5 output would interrupt the power to the whole boards logic.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: jclarkw on March 31, 2016, 06:26:51 PM
...The batteries feed U5 input through some diodes so the main supply does not feed back into the batteries when on AC.
I would say breaking the U5 output would interrupt the power to the whole boards logic.

Thanks!  Go it.  Maybe it's time to open up this old unit (labeled "12K48", with the daughter boards) again.  I haven't looked inside the newer version (labeled "15D15") yet... -- jclarkw
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: jclarkw on April 04, 2016, 06:52:50 PM
Here is the schematic of the main board in the CM15A.
That is not the latest where X10WTI had it redesigned to use Surface Mounted parts and the RF Transmitter and receiver are now on the main board. Older design has a RF Transmitter daughter board and RF receiver daughter board.

Brian -- With reference to this schematic, do you also have a board layout?  (Seems to me I had one somewhere but can't find it.)  I just opened up my CM15A (indeed it's the old design with two daughter boards), but I cannot easily determine which chip is the voltage regulator (U5), nor which pin on that chip needs to be momentarily disconnected (or maybe there's even a conventional wire, which would make life a lot easier).

I see that Dave Houston's X10 site is still up and running, which is great!  Somewhere I found out how to disable both the RF receiver (most important to avoid interference with other transceivers on the same house code) and the transmitter (which apparently isn't really necessary, but I didn't want it "sounding off").  I can see where I tied one of the pins on one of the daughter boards through a resistor to the power rail (or ground?), but I don't remember the other trick.

Also, I don't suppose anybody has figured out comparable information for the new (surface mounted) model?  I opened one of those too, and it looks pretty inscrutable. -- jclarkw
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: Brian H on April 04, 2016, 07:41:59 PM
Original CM15A is in the FCC Database.
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm?calledFromFrame=N

Grantee: B4S
Product Code: CM15A
Pick details.
Internal and external photos, parts lists and original schematics are there.

I believe Dave Houston did some preliminary observations on the surface mounted version and  had posted a photo of the new layout. I understand the RF receiver and Transmitter are all now incorporated on the one large main board.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: jclarkw on April 05, 2016, 09:59:41 PM
Original CM15A is in the FCC Database.
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm?calledFromFrame=N
...
I believe Dave Houston did some preliminary observations on the surface mounted version and  had posted a photo of the new layout. I understand the RF receiver and Transmitter are all now incorporated on the one large main board.

Brian -- I'm not finding anything like a 'board layout' (new or old), by which I mean which physical component corresponds to which U#, etc., on the schematic, although it would be most useful.  (On the old CM15A the two RF boards are easy to understand, but the motherboard not so much...)  Did anybody ever make anything like this for either version? -- jclarkw
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: Brian H on April 06, 2016, 06:13:11 AM
There is no such parts layout diagram as far as I have ever seen.

Parts List for the older model. U5 is a LM2931Z50.
I looked at one of mine.
Left of the power transformer near the edge of the case and the large filter capacitor. There is a TO92 voltage regulator. Mine is marked LM2931Z-5. Silk screened with an I for input, O for output and C for common.

The later Surface Mount CM15A is shown in this thread. http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29278.0
Since Dave's web site was moved to a new server. I believe the link to the data maybe broken.
Anyway in the surface mounted version. Near the power transformer is a TO92 type device and the silk screen says "REG" Good bet that is the 5 volt regulator.

 
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: dhouston on April 06, 2016, 08:59:38 AM
I've modified my post that Brian cited. It now includes the photo - rotated 90 degrees so it doesn't use so much vertical space.

Scroll right and you'll see the REG that Brian notes, above. It is just below the 470uF capacitor.

I'll be taking more photos later this week as I get a few CM15A2Z carrier boards assembled. I'll try to remember to get a picture of the other side of the newer CM15A PCB.
Title: Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
Post by: jclarkw on April 06, 2016, 04:52:19 PM
I've modified my post that Brian cited. It now includes the photo... I'll try to remember to get a picture of the other side of the newer CM15A PCB.

Thanks, Dave!