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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: bzellinger on July 13, 2006, 10:50:18 AM

Title: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 13, 2006, 10:50:18 AM
What are these and do they have anything to do with installing a phase coupler? See my blog for pictures.

http://zellinger.blogspot.com

Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 13, 2006, 11:21:19 AM
I'll defer to the "electricians" here to clarify the boxes but they look like subs to the main breaker. One for AC and the other for a 220V appliance at or formerly at the "s wall" area. Is this an older home by any chance?

While phase couplers can be installed at the breaker box, I don't recommend it. It violates code and invites problems. A plug in coupler at the "s wall" might work.

Note: Pictures can be inserted with your posts. It might save the need to link elsewhere to see them.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 13, 2006, 11:26:40 AM
The south wall just has a regular 3-prong plug outlet. It's not the wierd shaped plug. Are there any plug-in couplers that accommadate a regular 3-prong plug? My home is about 40 years old.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: dave w on July 13, 2006, 11:47:05 AM
The south wall just has a regular 3-prong plug outlet. It's not the wierd shaped plug. Are there any plug-in couplers that accommadate a regular 3-prong plug? My home is about 40 years old.

No, not really. A  "coupler" whether passive or the amplifying/repeater style units require a 220-240V connection because they "couple" the X10 signal from one phase in your house to the other phase. Smarthome.com does have a unit that plugs in to a dryer outlet. In any application I think the "amp/repeater" version is a better investment than the "passive" coupler version. The cost is about double, but you get a stronger signal throughout the house. $0.02.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 13, 2006, 11:59:03 AM
Well, half of my homes outlets don't work because the interface is using one leg. Is this correct? Wouldn't a phase coupler do the job? I have no 220v outlets in my home.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 13, 2006, 12:43:59 PM
The south wall just has a regular 3-prong plug outlet. It's not the wierd shaped plug. Are there any plug-in couplers that accommadate a regular 3-prong plug? My home is about 40 years old.
Just curious... Was there ever a room AC plugged in at the south wall? Do you use the "regular 3-prong plug outlet"? If not, check the voltage and wiring there. Have you lived in the house since it was new? Any modifications to the south wall?  i.e. Can you vouch for the wiring over the history of the house? (I've seen some strange wiring arrangements by do-it-yourselfers.)

I grew up in a house that didn't have central air. My parents later installed a couple room AC units. While our units were 110V, I remember recommendations that they have a dedicated outlet. The 220V room units require wiring for 220V. Central air was added later.

Well, half of my homes outlets don't work because the interface is using one leg. Is this correct? Wouldn't a phase coupler do the job?...
That clearly points to the need for a coupler. Now you just need to figure out where to put it.

...I have no 220v outlets in my home.
No drier plug? 
If the "220V to s wall" is not being used, you could have an electrician wire an approved coupler from that box. It might also be useful to have an electrician check your wiring.
I'd also recommend turning the breaker "OFF". If you're not using it would be safer that way. You also may discover that some "creative wiring" (to code or perhaps not) where the 220V has been split elsewhere in the house.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 13, 2006, 12:56:41 PM
No room AC. I had the original central AC unit replaced 4 years ago.

My drier plug is a regular 120v plug. I've checked all my appliances and they're all 120v.

Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 13, 2006, 01:03:52 PM
...I had the original central AC unit replaced 4 years ago....
Did they add the AC beaker box then or was it there before the replacement?
Anything happen when you turn off the "s wall" breaker?
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 13, 2006, 01:26:56 PM
It was there already.
Nothing happens when south wall breaker turned off.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 13, 2006, 01:38:04 PM
...Nothing happens when south wall breaker turned off.
Perhaps someone else will comment but at this point I think tapping off that box is the best place to put a phase coupler. Have an electrician check your wiring to make sure it is unused and then tap off it for a phase coupler. I think there are hard wire units for that purpose but haven't seen them myself. Otherwise have the electrician install a 220 outlet next to the box and use a plug in coupler.

SmartHome has this coupler (http://www.smarthome.com/4816H.html). They may also have one that boosts the signal.
Note the diagram with the proper way to install it.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 13, 2006, 01:57:48 PM
Here are some pics of the south breaker box. The size is too large to post here:

http://zellinger.blogspot.com
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 13, 2006, 02:00:29 PM
Ok here's a SmartHome coupler-repeater (http://www.smarthome.com/4823.HTML) that's on sale.
Yeah it costs almost 4 times as much as the other one but a coupler-repeater can often do what a coupler alone can't.
Again, note the diagram with the proper way to install it.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 13, 2006, 02:22:35 PM
Question for the electricians...

I was able to take the easy way out with a plug in coupler but it doesn't look like bzellinger has that option.
Can bzellinger tap off his 220V box for a hard wired coupler and stay within code specs or will it need to be a dedicated pair of breakers?
If dedicated breakers are required, would it be code wiring for him to disconnect the out feed from his 220V "s wall" breaker. He says it's not being used.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: billy on July 14, 2006, 01:07:40 AM
Looking at the top 2 pics, I have to say that this box is feeding a 120 volt 20 amp circuit somewhere. Notice only one black wire off the bottom righ hand side of the breaker. That is a 220 2 phase breaker not a good idea!
If it it's an unused circuit you could put a box next to the panel and install a range receptacle to plug the coupler into.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 14, 2006, 01:29:06 AM
Looking at the top 2 pics, I have to say that this box is feeding a 120 volt 20 amp circuit somewhere....
Good eye. I didn't notice that. Is the box not really 220V?
Would it be better for him to tap off a pair breakers from the main box?
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: phorce1 on July 14, 2006, 01:48:03 PM
Looking at the top 2 pics, I have to say that this box is feeding a 120 volt 20 amp circuit somewhere. Notice only one black wire off the bottom right hand side of the breaker.

Yes. Someone didn't need 220 and just used one breaker to feed 120 to something else (probably an outlet). My first suggestion would be to scrub off all the Sharpie(tm) writing as it is misleading.

That is a 220 2 phase breaker not a good idea!

No, it's 2 single phase breakers clipped at the handles. The 30 amp breaker in the other pictures is a single unit 2 phase breaker. If you pop the clip off of the 20 amp breaker handles you now have two separate 20 amp single phase breakers. BUT... (see below).

If it it's an unused circuit you could put a box next to the panel and install a range receptacle to plug the coupler into.

This box is actually the ideal place to install your phase coupler if that single 120V circuit is not being used.

Leave the two breakers clipped together.

Buy a hardwired phase coupler.

Disconnect the wiring for that 120V circuit and PULL IT OUT OF THE BOX (label it if you can figure out where it goes and can't pull it all the way back to the other end).

Use one of the holes left on top of the circuit panel to install a box large enough to hold the phase coupler you buy (usually a single switch box is big enough). Plug the other hole with an approved snap-in plug.

Wire the phase coupler as instructed to the two breakers.

Re-label the panel "X-10 phase coupler breaker"

Now, if you can manage to go around and label EVERY electrical outlet/hardwired item as to which phase it's on you have a handy-dandy way to easily separate the phases if you need to test for noise generators and such. Just go flip those breakers off and noise should no longer couple across phases (unless you have a non-motor driven 220 device attached to 220 somewhere coupling them and running during testing. Motor driven devices couple somewhat but the rotating magnetic field makes it spotty.).

No need to install a 220 plug (and make sure you have the right one).

Gerald
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: KDR on July 14, 2006, 08:44:25 PM
Well if you don't have an electric drier and never plan to have one the you could hard wire a coupler. If you think there may be a need for one in the near future then you could install a 220vac 30amp plug in any location and wire it back to the box. If you did that the 20 amp breaker would need replaced with a 30 amp and the correct size wire used. You don't want to run new wiring, install a 30 amp breaker and leave the circuit wired in the box. It is more then likely a number 12 wire and  a 30 amp breaker is to big to protect a 12 gauge wire. (Some very remote exceptions apply)


Also the wording on the box could mean that there is 220 volts inside the box, which there is, and that the single circuit coming out of it goes to a plug somewhere on a south wall.  Guess its all in how you read it. I would turn the breaker off and test every south wall plug  on every floor, basement and attic and garage. Any outside outlets on a south wall?

Steven r - based on the pic there is 220 volts coming into the box first leg (red) to one breaker, second leg (red) to the other breaker and a white neutral The feeders look to be at least a number 10 wire, good for 30 amps. Must be an older box because there are no ground wires or ground wire terminal strip in the box. Typical of older 220 sub-panels
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 14, 2006, 10:06:34 PM
Or, I could hire an electrician and do it for me since I have no idea what you're all talking about!

Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 15, 2006, 12:29:55 AM
Or, I could hire an electrician and do it for me since I have no idea what you're all talking about!...
When in doubt, that's the best approach! Personally I like to stay away from the breaker box myself.

Decide whether you want a hard wired coupler or just an outlet for a plug in one. Either way as someone said it shouldn't be more than about an hours work. While it may seem odd to the electrician to install an outlet near the box, they should be able to do it. If you op for a hard wired solution, print out the wiring diagram.

While phase couplers don't preform miracles, from an X10 point of view they sure seem like do. You'll be glad you have it.

When you explain to the electrician what you want to do, expect him to have a confidant no problem attitude about the job. Otherwise pick a another electrician.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 20, 2006, 10:26:57 AM
I put some more pics up: http://zellinger.blogspot.com

From what I can tell, the 220v box is connected to both phases. It's then daisy-chained to the ac sub box. The 220v box is turned off and everything works. Couldn't I just rip that thing out of the 220v box and use the 2 phase wires to hook up a phase coupler?
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 20, 2006, 10:48:15 AM
...Couldn't I just rip that thing out of the 220v box and use the 2 phase wires to hook up a phase coupler?
It seems like you could but I'm not an electrician.

The point that keeps haunting me is that someone at some time spent time and money to put in that box for some purpose. There is another end of that hookup somewhere even if isn't the south wall.


I'd highly recomending leaving the box turned off. Then over the next few days test every outlet in the house for power as well as any hardwired items.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 20, 2006, 11:25:52 AM
It's going outside to a regular outlet. I see the pipe leading to it. I figure I can live without an outside outlet. Besides, there's another one about 20 feet away.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: dave w on July 20, 2006, 12:02:03 PM
bzelinger

If you do not use the 220V outlet, then the sub panel would be a easy installation point for a repeater coupler. It looks like the sub panel is fed strainght off your main house breaker, so you would need (or retain ) smaller breakers in the sub panel box (15A each phase).

I'm curious, is the outside outlet a 220V receptacle? You stated you had another outlet 20 feet away. Is it fed from the same sub panel feed?

What I am asking (or thinking) is: the previous owner may be feeding 120V "A phase", to outlet #1 and and 120V "B phase" to outlet #2 (20 feet away).  If that is the case, you could continue to use the outside outlets and still connect the phase coupler to the two 15A breakers in the sub-panel box.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 20, 2006, 12:33:20 PM
No 220v receptacle. Just 2 ordinary sockets. It's only going to that location, nothing else.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 20, 2006, 12:36:50 PM
Notice that the AC sub box is daisy-chained to the 220v sub box. Can I still replace the existing breakers to 15a? Will that affect the AC somehow?
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: Dan Lawrence on July 20, 2006, 01:09:42 PM
My suspicion would be to have an electrician look at your house's entire wiring and breaker setup and recommend any changes that should be done. A map pf your house's electric system should be done: What breaker controls what lamps and outlets.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 20, 2006, 02:58:50 PM
It's going outside to a regular outlet. I see the pipe leading to it. I figure I can live without an outside outlet. Besides, there's another one about 20 feet away.
Hmm... I wonder what ever needed a dedicated 20A outdoor outlet, when there was an outlet available already.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: dave w on July 20, 2006, 03:37:09 PM
bzelinger

I just looked at your earlier pix, and see only one "hot" line from the "220V Outlet" actually leaves the box. so I understand it is just an outside 120V 20A outlet.

I am not sure my earlier advice of 15A breakers is really necessary. If me, I would use the existing 20A breaker.

Anywho, the AC breaker is not "daisy chained" (series) with the "220V Outlet" breaker, so even you did roll back to 15A breakers it would have no effect on AC.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: bzellinger on July 20, 2006, 03:57:37 PM
So the best way to hook up a phase coupler is to disconnect the wires going outside and use the 2 breakers in the 220v box for the coupler?
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: KDR on July 20, 2006, 07:57:19 PM
You may want to have a local electrician take a look at things. First thing that I saw looking at the main panel is the feeders suppling power to the sub-panel come off the main lugs. Can't make out what size breaker the main is but the wire size from the main lug to the sub-panel is under sized and bypasses the main breaker. Since it doesn't go through a main breaker it would need to be sized the same as the lines coming into the house to assure that a loaded short would not burn the wire before the links on the transformer opened up. I'm not sure where you live and what local codes are for your location but what you have would not pass code here in Cleveland. Keep in mind that breakers are designed to protect the wire not the load.

In the sub-panel a number 12 wire is used after the the 20 amp breaker so the 20 amp breaker is protecting the #12 wire which is good for 20 amps. The small wire from the main lug TO the sub-panel appears to have no breaker protection other then the links on the transformer on the pole outside. That wire looks to be maybe a #10 good for 30 amps. If it shorted to the other leg it could draw lets say 60 amps which would not blow the links on the pole but would melt the wire. Granted that the run for that wire is only a couple of feet and the likelyhood of a sort in that sort run is slim, its still not good.

How old is the house? Didn't see any gounds in the main box.

There could be some other protection there somewhere that is not shown. Thats why you should have it looked at.

Oh and by the way the other sub-panel is wired at the main lugs also.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steven r on July 20, 2006, 08:16:55 PM
You may want to have a local electrician take a look at things.... ...I'm not sure where you live and what local codes are for your location but what you have would not pass code here...
KDR has a very good point.
At the time the sub box was installed, it might of met code. From what others have said, it might not meet code if wired that way now. In my understanding, new wiring must meet current code. Even if to box meet code when it was installed, hard wiring a phase coupler to it now may not based on current code.
Byte the bullet and have an electrician look at it.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: KDR on July 20, 2006, 08:45:02 PM
There are other violations in the main box if it were here in Cleveland and in a home that was being inspected for the purpose of selling. But thats here. We (me) are not trying to scare you and what you have may pass local code. Thats why someone local and not over the internet needs a peek at it.

You have a black wire connected to the neutral lugs, a white wire to one of the breakers, neither are marked to indicate what they are, indicating color change, two circuits are doubled up (acceptable) in most cases. An arc or what looks to be a burnt mark on the right edge of the main box itself. That probably made someone jump when they did that  :D  That tells me that the box must have a ground. If the ground is through the conduit that wouldn't pass here but on older homes may be OK. If you added new to the box it might not pass today. If the box is grounded it doesn't look like the the neutral bars are bonded to the box, that may be OK for your local code. The Bonding debate is as mysterious as X10 itself.

Bottom line as far as code goes... its up to local code. The requirements can be way off of what national code is. Local authorities have final say.  I installed 5 metal outlet boxes once for a home owner/friend. They made the inspector mad by raising hell and telling him he had to be out there to inspect the rough wiring right then and there. He walked in and pointed to 2 boxes, said they had to be plastic and walked out. Said call him when the violations where fixed. (thanks buddy!)
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: steingra on August 17, 2006, 01:58:17 AM
SmartHome has this coupler (http://www.smarthome.com/4816H.html). They may also have one that boosts the signal.
Note the diagram with the proper way to install it.

I also noticed this one: http://www.smarthome.com/4826a.htm
I found that we have one and possibly a second 220 outlet. The dryer is plugged into one, and the stove might have a 220 outlet.
I will have to check it tommorrow morning.

Anyway, if I end up needing a SignaLinc™ Plug-in Coupler-Repeater, could that end up causing more noise on the powergrid?  I cant remember which device(s) can actually amplify the noise.  I would think the SignaLinc™ Plug-in Coupler-Repeater is not going to make noisy lines, nosier...but I am not sure. So I was hoping someone can let me know about that.

Thanks
 
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: Rocket J Squirrel on August 17, 2006, 05:05:47 PM
Anyway, if I end up needing a SignaLinc™ Plug-in Coupler-Repeater, could that end up causing more noise on the powergrid?  I cant remember which device(s) can actually amplify the noise.  I would think the SignaLinc™ Plug-in Coupler-Repeater is not going to make noisy lines, nosier...but I am not sure. So I was hoping someone can let me know about that.
In my experience, the coupler-repeater does not propagate noise. It can tell signal from noise.

When it repeats a signal, you can watch the red LED indicate reception of the signal and the green LED indicate retransmission of the signal. Very often, its red LED blinks with no response from the green LED. I interpret this to mean the repeater is seeing noise but not retransmitting it.
Title: Re: Phase coupler question (pics inside)
Post by: crussell on August 18, 2006, 03:00:31 AM
Here's and odd ball thought...
If there is 0% signal blead in the current wiring across phases, you could use AHP with (2) trasnponders and create macros to bridge the house codes, this would just cause a delay and limit you to usage of half the house codes on each leg....

For example in room 1, put all the all the x10 items on leg A on house code A, all the items on leg B on house code B.  When the interface receives a command on house code A have it run a macro to generate a command to resend it on house code B.  The other Transponder will receive the wireless command and devices will react to it.  If you are using a wireless remote set to House code A, the Transponder on B may receive the signals, but will ignore them because it does not have any devices on house code B.

I have played with this only on a small scale, using 100% isolated circuits so their was no blead from leg to leg (Actually I was using this to turn on my neighbors lites while he was out from my house...to lazy to walk next door and go room to room...) so probably not the solution if you have a lot of devices.  But it could work in a very simple setup...