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Author Topic: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question  (Read 19528 times)

dave w

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RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« on: November 21, 2006, 12:46:12 PM »

Does anyone know if there is a significant difference between the motion detection sensitivity of the DM10A (the big round "Robo Dog" or "Outdoor" motion sensor) and any of the xxxxx Eye (Hawk Eye, Eagle Eye, Active Eye) motion sensors?

I found some forum comments on comparison of RF transmit range, but no information about any difference in detection sensitivity .

Any input is appreciated!

BTW (and this falls in to the FWIW bucket). RF transmit distance of any of the xxxxx-EYE motion detectors can be easily extended by adding a passive radiator to the motion detector.

My method is to hot glue an 18 inch piece of wire (18 to 22 gage) to the LEFT  side of the ' Eye (viewing front of unit). The wire length is fairly critical (one half wave length of 310mHz is 18 and 1/8 inch). If you have the European product, you will need to refigure the wire length. The 18 inch figure is for the frequency used in the North American products.

Wire characteristics (insulated vs un-insulated, solid vs stranded, wire gage, etc.) is not very critical, even coat hanger wire will work, although hard to work with.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 12:00:21 PM by dave w »
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TakeTheActive

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2006, 04:29:23 PM »


BTW (and this falls in to the FWIW bucket). RF transmit distance of any of the xxxxx-EYE motion detectors can be easily extended by adding a passive radiator to the motion detector.

My method is to hot glue an 18 inch piece of wire (18 to 22 gage) to the LEFT  side of the ' Eye (viewing front of unit).

A picture would be nice! ;)

  • Horizontal or vertical?
  • Front LEFT side or Back LEFT side or Side LEFT side? Wouldn't it (LEFT or RIGHT side) depend on the direction of the receiving antenna in relation to the MS1X?
  • Approximately what percentage would you say the range increased?

Thanks!
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dave w

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2006, 01:59:49 PM »


A picture would be nice! ;)

  • Horizontal or vertical?
  • Front LEFT side or Back LEFT side or Side LEFT side? Wouldn't it (LEFT or RIGHT side) depend on the direction of the receiving antenna in relation to the MS1X?
  • Approximately what percentage would you say the range increased?

Thanks!

Oh for petes sake, now you want me work.

"Front LEFT side or Back LEFT side or Side LEFT side? "
sigh...allow me to quote: "My method is to hot glue an 18 inch piece of wire (18 to 22 gage) to the LEFT side of the ' Eye"
Did I say "front of eye on left side"?... no.
Did I say "front of eye on right side"? ...again, no.
I said; (hollering very loud), "LEFT SIDE OF EYE" "as viewed from the front".

"Horizontal or vertical? "
Vertical - I don't know how to hot glue a horizontal wire on a vertical surface (remember, I just hollered "left side of eye!" in the vicious and snotty answer one paragraph above).

"Wouldn't it (LEFT or RIGHT side) depend on the direction of the receiving antenna in relation to the MS1X?"
 Ah! some meat! Good question.
The radiating element in the Eye is a 3/4 turn coil mounted in upper left corner of the PC board. So I mounted the radiator on the same side, which, (in theory) would end up coupling the strongest signal to the radiator. If you needed to mount the radiator on the right side of the Eye, it would probably work as well. But I don't think the slight distance change relative to the receiving antenna would have much impact.

The horizontal/vertical question is good also, I just wanted to have some fun with it.
"Basic Radio 101" says: If your receiving antenna (CM15A etc) is vertical, the Eye antenna should be orientated vertically also. If your receiving antenna is horizontal, you might bend the radiator 90 degrees where it extends above Eye's housing (or below the Eye's housing if you made it a 'dribble' antenna). In actual real world, I doubt the antenna "polarization" will make a hill of beans.

I didn't put a lot of detail in this because it serves as a "gross fix", "shotgun fix", "thermo-nuclear fix",  etc. Virtually NOTHING is critical except the radiators length. BTW I did not originate the idea, it is a modification of the original "Stick-A-Switch" booster wire, where the solution was to scotch tape a radiator wire on the wall next to the Stick-A-Switch and then paint over the tape. I don't remember who posted the idea in first place, or would give them credit.


"Approximately what percentage would you say the range increased?"
Do I look like a testing lab to you???
Listen, I mount an ActiveEye next to the cats litter box with a macro to turn on my latest invention: "The Pepe LePew Stink Good Fragrance Generator" for 20 minutes... and I find the ActiveEye signal can't quiet reach the CM15A back in the other end of the house. So, I glues a wire on it...and it works good, and now you want empirical testing with range data. Do you work for the government, or what?
<BG>
closing with big grin  - have great turkey day and remember to give thanks!
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Puck

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2006, 02:30:53 PM »

BTW I did not originate the idea, it is a modification of the original "Stick-A-Switch" booster wire, where the solution was to scotch tape a radiator wire on the wall next to the Stick-A-Switch and then paint over the tape. I don't remember who posted the idea in first place, or would give them credit.

Posted by Tuicemen, Idea by JeffVolp;)

Re: EagleEye Sensor MS14A Problems (all of a sudden)
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dave w

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2006, 03:03:50 PM »

YES! It was Jeff!!!

Thanks Tuicemen!

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TakeTheActive

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2006, 03:12:25 PM »


BTW I did not originate the idea, it is a modification of the original "Stick-A-Switch" booster wire, where the solution was to scotch tape a radiator wire on the wall next to the Stick-A-Switch and then paint over the tape. I don't remember who posted the idea in first place, or would give them credit.

Posted by Tuicemen, Idea by JeffVolp;)

Re: EagleEye Sensor MS14A Problems (all of a sudden)

  • Posted by: TakeTheActive
  • Copied by: Tuicemen
  • Hosted by: JeffVolp (when Dave took HIS site down)
  • Idea(s) by: Dave Houston
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Puck

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2006, 07:42:59 PM »

  • Posted by: TakeTheActive
  • Copied by: Tuicemen
  • Hosted by: JeffVolp (when Dave took HIS site down)
  • Idea(s) by: Dave Houston

You Da Man TTA  :)

Thanks for the correction (and the cool pic;)
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gil shultz

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2007, 05:06:23 PM »

Good Afternoon,

Adding the wire will help the range, but if you have the toys re-align the RF section and the range will even increase a lot more.  That coil (antenna) is part of a tuned circuit and anything effecting it will change the transmit frequency.  The length of the wire (antenna) as mentioned above is also critical, it is coupling by mutual inductance).  Soldering the wire to the coil also helps and you get better coupling and more range.  Which side? I do not remember, but if you can align it you can easily figure it out. 

Another gotcha is do you have the appropriate license to do this?  The unit is type accepted by the FCC and any modifications that effect the transmission need to be done by a person with the appropriate license and the ability to validate that it is within FCC requirements.  My suggestion is not to try this unless you are trained in RF and have the appropriate tools and license.

Have Fun
Gil Shultz





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Puck

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2007, 07:34:44 PM »

The unit is type accepted by the FCC and any modifications that effect the transmission need to be done by a person with the appropriate license and the ability to validate that it is within FCC requirements. 

If you modify/re-align the units RF section (or any other part of it's design) then it's FCC compliance requires re-validation.

The passive radiator is external and therefore would not affect the motion sensor's FCC compliance.

However, what you did is take an OEM product and placed it within your own system (your home... which includes the passive radiator). You are now responsible for any RF signals that emit from your property. You could be fined if you are found to be the root cause of public RF interference. I.E. If your addition of a passive radiator caused a compliant motion sensor to become a public RF interferer, then you are the root cause.

Because of the issues people have with the motion sensor's range, I think it would take a lot more than a passive radiator to make one become a public RF interferer.
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KDR

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2007, 11:06:53 PM »

Because of the issues people have with the motion sensor's range, I think it would take a lot more than a passive radiator to make one become a public RF interferer.

Yeah another 1000 volts ;D

Just kidding... I do have 3 of them and they have never been out of the box except to look at one. Since the question here hasn't been answered yet maybe I will try to put one in operation and see how it works out on the sensing end of things. I do like the fact that you have some adjustability with it. A down fall is its size, a plus is its white and blends in nice against white siding.

----------------KDR
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Brian H

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2007, 06:28:17 AM »

Just remember the DM10A only sends an On signal never an Off after a time out. Still has the Address+1 Dusk-Dawn feature.
I have never checked mine for sensing distance or RF range; but it maybe greater as it is powered by 4 AA cells and has a mount that allows it to tilt up and down vertically.
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dave w

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2007, 05:14:44 PM »

Good Afternoon,

Adding the wire will help the range, but if you have the toys re-align the RF section and the range will even increase a lot more.  That coil (antenna) is part of a tuned circuit and anything effecting it will change the transmit frequency.  The length of the wire (antenna) as mentioned above is also critical, it is coupling by mutual inductance).  Soldering the wire to the coil also helps and you get better coupling and more range.  Which side? I do not remember, but if you can align it you can easily figure it out. 
The passive radiator will not effect TX frequency, but "soldering the wire to the coil" certainly does, in a big way. It throws the transmit frequency so far off, none of the receivers (TM751, CM15A) will even "capture" it (and they are TRF receivers!). And no.... tuning  the slugged coil in the unit would not bring the transmitter back to frequency...DID YOU REALLY TRY THIS?

Another gotcha is do you have the appropriate license to do this?  The unit is type accepted by the FCC and any modifications that effect the transmission need to be done by a person with the appropriate license and the ability to validate that it is within FCC requirements.  My suggestion is not to try this unless you are trained in RF and have the appropriate tools and license.

Have Fun
Gil Shultz

Since I limited MY discussion to a passive radiator, no license is required. 
I don't see much value in recommending direct circuit modifications to an FCC Type Accepted transmitting device and then turning around and saying "don't do this unless you are licensed, trained, have the proper equipment, and know what you are doing".

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gil shultz

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2007, 11:24:18 PM »

Good Evening,

Your passive coupling is actually inductive coupling and can change the transmitter frequency and its radiated power. At that point the liability is with the person who made the change.  Place the wire on the receiver and there is no problem, the effect is the same. 

Yes connecting the wire works but the length of the wire is critical and some components may have to be changed.  Play with the length of wire you are using you might be surprised at the results.

Why say you can do it then bring up the FCC etc requirements?  There are many posts telling how to make the mods without any warnings.  Making the changes places the liability on the person that makes the changes not the person who explained how.  Also there are probably many users of X-10 that have the appropriate license and equipment to make the mods.

Just because it works does not make it OK.

Good Luck
Gil Shultz
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dave w

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2007, 06:40:08 PM »

Good Evening,

Your passive coupling is actually inductive coupling and can change the transmitter frequency and its radiated power.


"passive coupling"? Who said anything about passive coupling? Yes it is obviously weak inductive coupling.

"inductive coupling and can change the transmitter frequency and its radiated power"

Again the question did you try this? A tuned passive radiator placed next to the Stick-A-Switch or xxxEYE motion detector did not change their frequency. And I would be really interested to see how it could CHANGE radiated power. That would be like saying when a transmitter gets next to a reciever, the power changes(?)
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eagle

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Re: RoboDog vs EagleEye MS Detection Sensitivity Question
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2010, 05:07:22 PM »

Hi,

Just another thumbs up for this cool tip Dave.  Thanks!

I did this mod for my MS16A motion sensors (~18.25") and the CM15A (~9.25") using simple wire hangers and voila! ... the AHP via the Activity Monitor started recognizing signals from a couple of the intermittent sensors. 

But despite its effectiveness, the WAF however is low.  :(

So, I will eventually install the CM15A F-connector mod along with the coax DIY antenna.

But for now, RF signals are now nice and strong.  :)

r,
eagle
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