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Author Topic: Re: X10 modules power consumption [2 of 2]  (Read 12057 times)

steven r

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Re: X10 modules power consumption [2 of 2]
« on: November 20, 2006, 12:51:58 PM »

Or you can build your own like this guy.

http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2005/09/how_to_make_your_own_powersqui.html


X10 modules power consumption [1 of 2]


[TTA Edit: Experiment to determine whether or not SPLITTING 'Highly-Viewed' / 'Highly-Replied' but currently INACTIVE threads from LONG, LONG AGO (I'm starting with ~2 years) into parts will allow current ACTIVE threads to appear in the Top 10 Topics (by Replies) section of the Statistics Center (aka More Stats) Page.

NOTE: I *WILL* address the <BR> problem...]
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 10:22:59 PM by TakeTheActive »
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vhoang

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2006, 01:30:48 PM »

Some walgreen places have them also:
http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=100416&navAction=jump&navCount=0&id=prod2223152 : $12.99

You can froogle product id 100596, and get one for about $8 + shipping.

Or you can pick up parts (+ some googly eyes) and make your own squid:
http://www.delcollo.us/Blog/ICP/PowerSquid/PowerSquid.html

You should be able to pick up a five pack of liberators (power extension cables) for about $8 dollars as well.

Or get even more creative like: http://www.saltyzoo.com/PhotoAlbum/page.php?urlStr=/saltyzoo/180/equipment/010707


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vhoang

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2006, 01:33:10 PM »

-- sheez....  That's what I get for walking away from the computer while in the middle of a message... someone beats me to the punch line...
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vhoang

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2006, 10:59:34 PM »

So I picked up some led lights to see what was up.   This did not happen to me last christmas.  Sure enough they are so efficient they appear to be on when you shut them off because of the local control.   Leds are awesome.

From what I can tell from some research, the current leak is less than 1mA.   Can someone confirm?

It's just annoying to see the leds on in a totaly dark night that it gives the impression that you are wasting energy.

In anycase, a few other things I discovered was that if I plug a power transformer from a left over electronic device in parallel with the lights, it provides enough load to keep the led from turning on.   Hmmm...   For a second I feel a lot better that the lights weren't glowing...  And there's nothing on the other end of the wall wart... All of a sudden I feel better...

But wait..  :o  The energy is now converted to heat instead of light.    That's why laptop power supplies and other wall warts are warm even when nothing is plugged into the other end.

Plugging two X10 modules in series also gets rid of the faint glow.   But I still suspect the same current is still being passed down the line.   

At least my new LED's aren't "on" all the time now  ;)

I can live with it I suppose, since it's exactly the same as having a lamp connected into a module.  The fact that you don't see the lamp faintly on makes it fell like everything is ok.

So how much current is in local control?   That is the question....

Is it very very small?   I would suspect it is since it shouldn't take much to trigger on current fluxuation.



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Brian H

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2006, 07:38:27 AM »

I measured different modules. X10 and Smarthome ones.
LM465 has a diode in the sensing circuit so 1.58 ma AC and 0.16 ma DC
AM486 has a diode also 2.37 ma AC 1.69 ma DC.
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vhoang

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2006, 09:58:35 AM »

Thanks Brian...   So how do we complete this computation...

My 12V - 1A transformer does not have anything on the other end...

If it did it will at most be able to consume 12V * 1.69mA * (.001A/mA) = .0203W ?

W * (.001KW/W) * 24H/D * 365D * .17$(ca-rate)/KWH = Yearly cost of local sensing.

3 cents a year per module worst case? (10x less for the LM465)


I'm still a little puzzled by the computation..   My LEDs report it uses a Max of 0.87W/ft.
There is no transformer so I assume 120V.   Would I use the 120V value instead to calculate
maximum W?  10x my current value?

Finally, since my LEDs are connected in groups in series, I only count each set as one 120V source per module?


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Brian H

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2006, 11:45:17 AM »

That current was only the local current from the outlet, not the whole total. I will do a few and get back.
 As pointed out. The power supplies in the modules are powerline derived and use a capacitor in series with the AC that can mess up many meters.
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Brian H

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2006, 02:05:35 PM »

Input Current for some modules. Remember only the HC60RX; PH508 and CM15A have a power transformer. All the rest use a capacitor in the AC input that causes the AC voltage and Current to be out of phase and may cause my readings to be inaccurate.

LM465          32.23  ma AC
CM15A         10.62  ma AC
AM14A         45.8    ma AC
SL575           29.0   ma AC
LM15A            9.66  ma AC
RSC15A         39.4   ma AC
SH10A          40.7   ma AC
RR501         102.1   ma AC
FWLROD          9.5  ma AC
HC60RX         13.3   ma AC
TM751         104.6   ma AC
PF284            99.5   ma AC
UM506           54.8   ma AC
PH508           15.75  ma AC

FWLROD is a B&D Outdoor Weather Resistant Lamp Module that programs like a LM15A Socket Rocket and clunks like an appliance module. Like a box in the center of a 2' extension cord.
HC60RX  is an OEM for RCA CM11A
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JeffVolp

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2006, 04:36:17 PM »

Quote
All the rest use a capacitor in the AC input that causes the AC voltage and Current to be out of phase and may cause my readings to be inaccurate.

That is exactly true.  If you just multiply current times voltage for these devices, you will get many times the actual power consumption.  Only a meter that integrates instantaneous voltage times current over each cycle will give you an accurate measurement.  Or you can build a simulation to see exactly what is going on.

Actual quiescent consumption of a lamp module is about half a watt.

Jeff
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TakeTheActive

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2006, 06:41:48 PM »


...Only a meter that integrates instantaneous voltage times current over each cycle will give you an accurate measurement...

Like this:


? ;)
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vhoang

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2006, 08:15:46 PM »

That doesn't appear to be battery driven... How is it going to pick up watt usage between a module in off mode and a strand of led lights if there is no power provided to it?   

It will likely just vaporize the local control current.
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ArdentGuy

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2006, 07:49:03 PM »

Input Current for some modules. Remember only the HC60RX; PH508 and CM15A have a power transformer. All the rest use a capacitor in the AC input that causes the AC voltage and Current to be out of phase and may cause my readings to be inaccurate.

LM465          32.23  ma AC
CM15A         10.62  ma AC
AM14A         45.8    ma AC
SL575           29.0   ma AC
LM15A            9.66  ma AC
RSC15A         39.4   ma AC
SH10A          40.7   ma AC
RR501         102.1   ma AC
FWLROD          9.5  ma AC
HC60RX         13.3   ma AC
TM751         104.6   ma AC
PF284            99.5   ma AC
UM506           54.8   ma AC
PH508           15.75  ma AC

FWLROD is a B&D Outdoor Weather Resistant Lamp Module that programs like a LM15A Socket Rocket and clunks like an appliance module. Like a box in the center of a 2' extension cord.
HC60RX  is an OEM for RCA CM11A

These are the kinds of readings I am also seeing.  As far as requiring a meter that integrates instantaneous voltage times current over each cycle...I can't see how a capacitor in the AC circuit can cause a power factor error that causes a 600 percent error. 

In an installation that uses a dozen modules, having a 24/7 constant power drain of 30 to 50 watts may be acceptable.  But in an installation of 100's of modules, the power drain can become a burden.  Also, it's hard to justify spending the money on LED christmas lights if the control circuit (i.e. the X10 module) uses more power than the lights themselves.

I'm still looking for a way to disable the local control current as well as any other methods to reduce the power consumed by X10 modules.
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Charles Sullivan

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2006, 02:38:30 PM »

Input Current for some modules. Remember only the HC60RX; PH508 and CM15A have a power transformer. All the rest use a capacitor in the AC input that causes the AC voltage and Current to be out of phase and may cause my readings to be inaccurate.

LM465          32.23  ma AC
CM15A         10.62  ma AC
AM14A         45.8    ma AC
SL575           29.0   ma AC
LM15A            9.66  ma AC
RSC15A         39.4   ma AC
SH10A          40.7   ma AC
RR501         102.1   ma AC
FWLROD          9.5  ma AC
HC60RX         13.3   ma AC
TM751         104.6   ma AC
PF284            99.5   ma AC
UM506           54.8   ma AC
PH508           15.75  ma AC

FWLROD is a B&D Outdoor Weather Resistant Lamp Module that programs like a LM15A Socket Rocket and clunks like an appliance module. Like a box in the center of a 2' extension cord.
HC60RX  is an OEM for RCA CM11A

These are the kinds of readings I am also seeing.  As far as requiring a meter that integrates instantaneous voltage times current over each cycle...I can't see how a capacitor in the AC circuit can cause a power factor error that causes a 600 percent error. 

If you hang a big capacitor by itself across a 120 VAC line you'll get a current reading that might lead you to the conclusion that a lot of power is being dissipated.  But the actual dissipation will be due only to the dielectric losses in the capacitor and the resistance of the leads, both of which are normally quite small at 60 Hz.  Under this situation the V x I product versus actual power error will probably far exceed 600%.

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Puck

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2006, 03:39:22 PM »

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Brian H

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Re: X10 modules power consumption
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2006, 04:23:25 PM »

I agree with all the added data.
Will a True RMS meter be better?
Got a nice shiny Fluke at work the other day and maybe if I beg enough can borrow it.  ::)
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